Rose we conclude this evening with michael mann, the director of a new moviest cled black hat. Iam attract to doing films that are on the edge of something. Edge of, you know theworld changing for the characters who are in it. The characters in conflict with each other w themselves ask themselves kind of the fundamental questions about the brave new world theyre facing. The oscars islam, and a new film called black ht when we continue. Funding for charlyear rose i rose funding for charlie ro has been provided by rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by rose commucations from r studios in new york city, this is chaie rose. Rose the nominations forth 87th annual Academy Awards were anunced this morning in los angeles. Alejandroinarritu birdman and the grand Budapest Hotel lead theback with ne nominions each. Other films prominently respecd included richard lick later boy hood qs and more ten tildup the imgation gation imitation game. Joining mnow is matt bean, theditor of Entertainment Weekly. I am pleased to have him at this table. Welcome. Charlie thanks so much for having me. Rose surprises in these announcements . Well the big surprise and all anyone can talk about is the socalled white washing of the acting categories. For only the second time in 20 years since 1998, all of the actor and actress nominations go to white men and women. And even trending on twitter there is a hashtag oscarsowhite. And its something that a lot of people are asking questions about. Rose what is the reason that all the actors and actresses and supporting act ares and actresses are white. Rose this year. The last time it happened was 2011. Rose i assume that the leading person they thought might be there david David Oyelowo. Fantastic portrayal of the ref rand Martin Luther king in selma which is a film we really loved at entertain weakly. But in addition to David Oyelowo. Ava deverney was the first opportunity for an academy to number nature an africanamerican female director. The combination of those two events even though selma was nominated as one of the eight best picture no knees has a lot of people scratching their heads. Rose particular a look at the actors in the actors in a leading role. They are all great performances. Uhhuh. Rose and so is David Oyelowo Steven Carrell Foxcatcher Bradley Cooper benedict bummer batch the imitation game Michael Keaton birdman Eddie Redmayne the theory of everything. Two of those won at the golden globe. These are all great performances. And its really hard to play the game where you swap one acker. Rose its hard. For the other. Rose what is the answer . I cannot tell you what the answer is. Because at the very heart of this, were talking about film were talking about something that appeals to you in its core. I had a conversation with jessica shaw, she has worked with entertainment we canly for a long tame it and i was telling her what i love most about boyhood which is one of mi favorite moveably ofies this area. Richard linklater made this over the course of 12 years and it features ella coletrain the actor the character growing up with patricia ar as a single mother. The movie a peeled the scenes where ethan hawke is talking about he sold the car. He sold the c h said he was going to give it to his son. And his son felt he had the rug pulled underneath him th resonated. Jessica said the scene that resonated was when Patricia Arquette character is sending her child to college. Coming to the reckoning that it is over and thiss all there is. A physical am like that even one individual film can appeal to someone for a variety of different reasons. So to boil that all down into the calderon of why this film and why notthe other film is difficult. Rose birdman. Birdman blew me a watch. I dont know what to tell you. It was if the going to be one of our covers despite the fact that i love Alejandro Inarritu des might des pate that Michael Keaton is an absolute personal hero of mine. We went to see that moveyear and sean smith the editor of the movie section our executive editier, walked out and kind of lacked at each other. There is a thing you do when you see a screening auschly its hosted by someone who is,ing with that company. You dont really talk about it then and there. Most of the time because there are things you want to nitpick or you want to talk about you had you will cover it in the magazine. And it is just not polite to do that in front of others. But sean and i just kind of lacked at each other. And we gave each other th look. And we immediately huddled when we got outside and said how are we going to rearrange things so we can put this film on the cover. That is what we did. A photographer of ours tk a very arresting portrait of Michael Keaton on the cover it is one of my favorite of the year. The film, the screenplay was one of the most ambitious things that ive seen in moveyears. Rose best actress. I woulday Julianne Moore has the position on this unwith. A lot of people feel like her portrayal with a woman grappling with alzheimer is is o for the ages. Rose and a woman who is like 51 or 2 years old. Felicity joneslso in the they are real estate of everything carrie just an important weight in that movie. Because a lot of people feel its the story of Stephen Hawking but there is always another side to that story. And Felicity Jones plays his wife in that moveyear. And i think it is a very powerful performance. Best supporting actress. This is an interesting category. Best supporting actress a lot of options. People, there is an audible gasp when laura dern was nominated. She plays a fantastic character. She plays the character who passes and reese witherspoon, her daughter on this spunnoff into a sort of tailspin. As a result of that though she goes on a long hike and tries to find herself and its a voyage of inspirationment but laura dern has to the been a part of the conversation as much recently. A lot of people were pulling for her. They love her. But she just wasnt as present so i think it took a lot of people byurprise. Rose talk a minute about budapest because wes anderson is a filmmaker that people lie. Ty are very stylized. It has made a fair amount of money. I believe it is 17 17 rose that is more than a fair amount. I definitely think its enough to finance his next film. The prior three moviests that wes anderson created didnt even make as much as this film. And you can ask yourself well why is that. Was this a Critical Mass of characters . Was this the culmination of the career for wes anderson. Are people familiar enough with his personal brand as a filmmaker that this just hit the right moment. And i think its a combination of all of that. This is an imaginative film. This is not set in any kind of reality that we deal with. And if you look at the ma jort of the best picture nominations, a lot of those they are biopicks. We wrote about this the surest way to end up no no nominated foran Academy Award is to write something true to life or based on real life or even easi based on an biography. Rose what politicking might go on between now and the end of the voting . I with say the most important thing, charlie, is you need people to see your movie. That is one of the most difficult things to do. And i catell you this from personal we have a weakly magazine were putting out. We cover everything from movies to music to books. The biggest challenge is setting aside time to see moviests that are sometimes three hours long. Just getti people to see your film is i think absolutely order of business testimony one. But are you right there is politicking th goes on behind thescenes conversations, pem are trading to find ways to cast as pergs on some of the other films. When it is set in rlity, that is a prticularly easy task caus youan say this is not true. This film holds itself up to be true to fact. Buin some ways it is not. Thatis o of the things thathas beseiged selma. People are trying to say that what has gone on on that movie is n accurate depiks of what happened in real life. The challenge of that is filmmakers have to take liberties all the time if what they wat to do is tell a story. Rose literary licence. Matt bean editor of Entertainment Weekly the 87th annual awardings will take place on sunday february 22nd. Back in a moment. Stay with us. It has been 1 week since the deadly terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo. Al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claimed responsibility but at sought the kouachi brothers who staged attacks reportedly received training and funding from the branch in al qaeda jihadist organizations have capitalized on the alienation felt by some members of Europes Muslim communities. More than 1,000 fighters reportedly join the Islamic State from france alone. The attracts to ignited debate about islam and freedom of speech. Many leaders from the muslim world joined the unity rally in paris last weekend despite domestic crackdowns on blasphemiment joining me reza aslan, a prove ter professor at the university of California Riverside and the author of no god but god the origins evolution and future of islam. And from washington will mccaps the director of the broobings Institution Project on u. S. Relations with the islamic world and in new york shadi hamid a ellow at the Brookings Institution flow for middle est plicy and author of temptations of power. Islamist and liberal democracy in the new middle east. And michael hann senio fell at the century oundation am eye im pleased to have each of them here. Let me just begin with this and talk about a tweet that you said you sent. You said the more we present opposition to paris attacks and support for right to blasphemy as package deal the more likely we are to all yent ate muslims. There isnt a cultual divide on the queston of mass slaughter of innocence. And we shouldnt even suspect that french muslim was be okay with mass killings of this sort. So this kind of presumption of collective guilt that were always wondering what dot muslims really think but that is different than the bigger issue of cultural attitudes towards blasphemy, the role of islam in politics pems own levels of religious observancement and i think thats where there is a divideinranc and it is possible to condem the killings but to not be okay with the right to blasphem. And i think that is what you would hear a lot of french muslims saying am but if we werent it the only way to really be against the paris attacks is to also affirm the right to blasphem then we are puttg french muslims in a difficult position because some of them may not be comfortable with the latter. Rose reza you said the following and i want to broader this to a broader conversation. The answer to islamic violence is islamic peace. The answer to islamic bigotry is islamic pluralism which is why i put the onus on the Muslim Community. But i also recognize that work is being done that the voice of condemnation is deafening and if you dont hear it you are not listening. Yeah thats correct. Look, i think that the issue here with europe as was very well put is that there its very difficult to navigated the new cultural terrain of the continent. Europe does not look like it did 50 years ago. Thanks to mass migration and the sort of pore oustness of the borders of european union, i think many your pains are facing a real identity crisis and part the crisis has to do with this incredible xenophobia antiimmigrant and in particular antiislamic sentiment that has gripped large parts of europe. And that has lead to the rise of these neofacists nationalist parties like ukipin birth an, like the natnal front in france. Parties who unfortunately are probably going to it be emboldene and strengthened by what happened in the terr attackasteek. But partly why i said that is because we tended to as a result of this tragedy and so many tragedies like it, really kin of retreat to our preconceived positions. Be it the muslim notion that europe is virulently antimuslim that it is attacking islam or the european rights notion that muslims are a fifth column that they dont represent or accept european values. And so therefore they have no place in europe. My argument was for there to be a middle ground here, it has to come from muslims themselves european muslims who are providing a counternarrative to the kind ofultraorthodox puritanism that has infected these communities across the continent. Rose michael i want you to jump in and raise this question. Elliott abrams used to be on the National Security colining a very strong supporter of israel said the people who are doing these things view themselves as good muslims. That has to it be addrsed and explained. Of course they do. I mean i think weve seen also a trend to say theyre n muslims. And of course who are we to excommunicate these people. They are muslims. There are bad muslims tre are good muslims there are b christians there are good christians. And so i think what we have to get away from is the collectivization. And one thing that i would disagree with shadi and when we talk about these trends we cant lump muslims as one category. There might be crusaders for free speech among the Muslim Community. I mean we shouldnt set this up as anus versus them where were talking about french societies reactions and then were talking about the Muslim Community as a discreet set of french society. I would imagine that you know, there might be concentrations of views, but we would also see a spectr c of views. Much like in other communities. And so you know, i think getting away from that collectivized notion where the actions of some represent all is really important is an important job acrosstheboard. And so yes theyre muslims, there are problems in corners of the muslim world. There are problems in muslim majority countries with radicallization and extremism. These are issues that are part of the story of islam today. Maybe not the vast majority of muslims but theyre a part othe story and that has to be addressed. What ought to it be the debate in your judgement today . I think the dbate shod be about the limits of free speech particularly in the United States vrsus eure. They both have very different definitions of what constitutes free speech and what passes for offensive. I wld note that in france and in many countries in europe you know they have laws against denial of the holocaust or defaming jews. Theres a bit more of a pass when it comes to speech against muslims but there also the laws can be quite restrictive and people have gone to jail say in the u. K. For for spreading leibel or slander or condemning libel or slander or condemning the entire group for the aks of a few extremists. In the United States its much more freewheeling and i think all of us on your show today have a much more American Experience of these things. Which is why i dont think any of us are calling for the curtailment of free speech. But i think all of us also understand that there is a lot of sensitivity among muslims to negative depiks of the prophet muhammad. And i would hope that you know, reonsible citizens would be sensitive to those to those sensitityies in the Muslim Community. You know, i want to do this it because i have wanted it do this for awhile. What is the difference between t term islamists and jihaddists . So this actually is a very important question. Because right now there is a tendency to cast all islamists or islamism with the problem in the rise of the terrost attacks or rise in isis but we have to make careful disphinx distinctions. An islamists are someone who believes islam and islamic law should play a prominent law in life. That is how they act politically. Many islamists participate in democratic elections. They believe in Political Parties some degree of pluralism. But if were talking about jihadists and the radical islamists, they dont believe in these things. They even the idea of having a parliament where people can vote thats anate ma to them because they believe god is the sole law. This it is worth noting that this law that the Muslim Brotherhood equities isis equities hamas equals boko haram and lumping them together we forget that isis and other extremist groups accuse groups it like the Muslim Brotherhood of being disbelievers. So even within thworld of islayou have considerable diversity. So i think we have to be very careful and take a step back and say there are different approaches to expressing islam through politicsment we as americans dont have to like islamists. But we do have to make an effort to understand them and make distincts. And again there is a risk that if we say all islamists are the problem tha were going to push people to be more radical because they are not going to feel they have any stak in the political process. I think the distinctions and nuance are critical. Some gups are violent some arent. But it is worth interrogating the question the sort of t idea of religious supreme civil that is at the heart of islamist thought. What does that mean in terms of its impact on the intellectual landscape . Is it a conveyer belt . Does it promote, is it a weigh station on the way to further radicallization. Is it a buffer. My guess is that my they are real estate is that it is both. But you know, i think we do have to look at even main line islamism what is its impact in terms of shaping the political narrative and whether it is in fact a contributing factor despite their nonviolence to further radicallization. Rose help me understand what it is theyre finding and where is it in the koran that they get this. Well if you are asking me is the koran a source of violence for grou like boko haram or isis oral quitea yes, of course it is. The koran has versus that cane con through construed towards violence t also has verses that can be construed towards compassion and peace. The problem here is that we tend to ignore and heighten the other. So. Rose we dothr they do . Everyone does. Everybody does. Every person of every faith in the history of the world that has a scripture does regardless of what religi it is. We bring our own values and norms to our scriptures. Weont extract them from our scriptures. And in this case i think its very important point to make. Because if someone like Elliott Abrams is trying to make the point thatslam is somehow responsible for acts of violence carri out in islams name, then he must also be prepared to say that islam is responsible for all the good things carried out in islams name. Thats really the difficulty of talking about these issues of islam as som kind of un tear idea that islam promotes this or islam prohibits this. These are nonsense phrases. Islam is what a muslim says islam is. And a muslim is anyoneho declares himself to be a muslim. So yes its true. Isis is muslim, yes its true that Charlie Hebdo tackers wre good muslims. But its also true that the people who are fighting isis are also muslim. The people that isis is attacking are muslim. The people who support isis and the people who argue against isis are muslim. So what does this actually say about isla not that much actually. Rose so this is to the about islam, this is about what . Itsbout individuals. Its about the way in which people interpret their faith. The way that they navigate their faith in a modern socty. How they reconcile their values and their beliefs with the realities of the modern world. And whether they can reconcile those values and beliefs. It has religious roots, but it also has cultural and ethnic and naturallistic roots. All of those things need to be wrapped up in any nversation that we have about the role of religion in violence. Yeah, i mean religion is part of the story. And so i think this debate is sometimes quite arid because of the bigotry that exists on one side and the reluctance to broach fraught topics. The contemporary state of islam is a difficult topic because of the bigotry that exists. Its a difficult topic to address squarely. And there are issues of radicallization. D thats part of contemporary islam. Its not the majority story but it is a reality. And i think have to face up to that as well. I mean i think, so we have to take religion seriously but i worry sometimesf we focus too much on religion, we forget that there is a political context, that if we want to understand the rise of isis we cant understand that without looking at the political vacuum that emerged in syria. Tha didnt happen by itself. There are a series of policy decisions from the International Community that help contribute to the rise of isis. So i guess t interesting question then is how does religion interact with these political factors . So we have to bring those different variables into focus. And i think we lose some of that. We lose that complexity for just saying islam is a problem. On the other hand though as reza pointed out these are these terrorists and extremists, they believe that in what they are doing, they are going to be granted direct entry into paradise. And that inspiration motivaon is a very powerful thing that we shouldnt underestimate. And ideology in this sense is a kind of force multiplyer on the battlefield. If we want to understand how about 900 isis fighters were able to overtake the second largest city in iraq in june against iraqi force of about 30,000, the lesson there is a small group of idea logically committed individuals who are willing to die for their cause they can they can do Amazing Things, amazingly bad things with very small numbers. Ros all right lete go to this point. Tom friedman in a column said that the u. S. Needed to confront saudi arabiabout their commitment to wahabiism saying quote it is a very short step from wahabi islam to the violent gee addism practiced on the Islamic State. The relationship between ultra conservative islam or wahabism and the Islamic State i think i is true that the is a very strong connection between those two ideaologies. Idea andf i can go back to something reza was talking about. It is certainly the case there are many different strains of interpretation of islam. But some of those are quite conservative. And retrograde. And wahabism is one of them or its morenternational version of selafism, it is no accident that in the town that the Islamic States control they were contributing saudi text books. These textbooks and wahabi teaching are veryhostile to the other. And while i think we have to be careful not to draw a Straight Line to trorism certainly those kind of teachings do not help increase pluralism and tolerance in the world. Rose are we going to witness now this competition for headlines and competition for adherence . Certainly eres going to be a competition. There has been for the past two or three years. And i think the feeling among many in the al qaeda orbit is that the Islamic State has stolen their thunder because the Islamic State combines two very powerful ideas in islam. One is the return of the caliphate or early islamic empire and the other is the apocalypse or the end of the world. And theyve knitted both together to attract recruits to come fight in syria and iraq. Rose and the idea of the state wa, do you think abot that . I think that if we want to understand isis they are revolutionary organization in the sense that they are doing things that other extremist groups before them havent really done. I mean establishing a caliphate across a large piece of territory, al qaeda would talk about the caliphate as an inspiration and aspiration but they didnt actually go there. Because as will says the idea of a caliphate historically thats a powerful symb for even the most moderate muslims will look back at the golden age of islam. And when the basset caliphate was a time when science, medicine and technology muslims were doing Amazing Things in those areas. So being able to appropriate the word caliphate has been brilliant marketing on the part of isis. And theyve actually done it. So where al qaeda was very go at destroying things isis has more of an interest in governance so in the territories it controls it rovides someegree of law and order. It runs local administrations. And if the alternative for the average syrian or iraqi is absolute chaos they might say well we dont like isis at all. We hate their ideology. But at least theyre providing some degree of stability and order. They might choose isis rule over chaos. Thats what we have to keep in mind. Rose let me raise this question among all of you. Do you believe that as the worlds attention has been focused on both paris and the reaction to what happened there that this will be looked on and has the possibility of being a transformational moment . I doubt it. You know we hear these war on terror cliches now. Weve done that. And it didnt work out particularly well the first time around. And of course, you know when we look at the scope of the threat i think sometimes we collectively need a degree of stoicism this isnt an existential threat it is a serious problem. It is one that many countries in the west will have to grapple with for some time to come. But the notion that our very way of life is threatened is not true. I think the unity rally was a great thing. But it was mainly preaching to the chr. As i was watching it the thought that kept going through my head is the jihadist must bebesides theelve wit glee lookng at what they were able to provoke by killing less than two dozen people. And if yo look at the al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula statement that came out today claiming the attack they said this was a transformational moment using almost eye dentically the language you just used but its transformational because they were able to provoke this kind of response with a small attack. Within those people who for whatever rason might be susceptible to listening and joining some kind of radical extrialist organization that somehow all of this would make it more of an inducement to join . Absolutely. The less you treat them as normal criminals and the more you highlight the spectacular nature of their attacks, the more that they are in the medias eye the more electrifying it is for the fringe. And the more that they want to get involved. Its not a lot of people but it will be enough to continue to crry out these kind of attacks. I actually worry that that is the high point of this socalled unity and were going to start making the same mistakes we always make. Rose which are. After terrorist attacks. The goal of groups like al qaeda is to provoke western powers to do things they otherwise wouldnt do. They want us to overreact. If marine lapen income the far right leader in france gains more Political Support becausof the a attacks last wk in paris, th would be a god send to al qaeda. Because then they would be able to say to their potential potential supporters look how bad europe is. They will never accept you as muslims. And they have a far rate leader n who is stigmatizing the entire community. And so thats im worried that we are going in this direction. It touches on something reza mentioned earlier if we are looking at turning point, a turning pont is to the going to happen in paris. The turning point is going to happen in the heart of i think, the arab world, in pastan. It is going to have to be the rise of organic sustainable indigenous antimilitancy. And an eventual embrace of pluralism. I think we are a very long way off from that. Thats where this canhange it doesnt change in western europe. And that is not the cruise i believe of this fair point. How does it start. I think whats interesting what is the decision. The rise of isis has, i think, and really spectacular violence that has accompanied it has had an impact in terms of producing a kind of organic antimilitancy in the arab world. I think the troubles and its an old catch22 is that its often tied to authoritarianism. We see this in egypt very clearly. You have a very strong antiisis antimilitancy sentimt that has grownup without any instigation from america or the west. The problem is is that its tied with dictatorial autocratic power. And i think that is that is the sort of trap that the arab world faces. And until we are able to see solutions that both can tackle the militancy and radicallization and yet do so without being repressive you know that is the way in which this problem can be dealt with in the longterm. Thank you so much, great to see you again. Thank you very much. Thank reza who had to leave earlier. Thank you, will, very much. Pleasure to have all of you here. This conversation continues. Well be back back in a moment. Stay with us. Michael mann is here, the director whose movies including the last of the mo heekan the insider and heat. His new movie is called blackhat t takes us into the world of cybercrime. It arrivings amidst recent hackings into sony and Central Command twitter and youtube accounts. President obama has said cybersecurity risk pos some of the most serious economic and National Security challenges of the 21st century. Here is the trailer for blck hat. Some hacker is hitting our financial markets. A major bank thats just what he with foe opinions we need a man named hathaway. What dow foe about this guy. Convicted hacker serving 15 years, m. I. T. Those are the terms. If you let it go terrorist attack the guy were wrking wth dropped it not thinking twice about it. Hes on the pov again. He cant go. This is only the beginning. Hes still writing. What for . If he discovers it, youre dead meet. This isnt about money this isnt about politics. I can target anyone. Anything. Anywhere. Rose im pleased to have michael mann back at this table. Welcome. Thank you, thank you. Rose sound pack this movie for me am take me from idea to script to cast to research to film. Okay. It started with, in a room with myself, thomas toll and john thomas is the chairman. And there was a looking for something cutting edge larger scale crime story police story. But in a world as the world is right now. And i was interested in stocksnet which had hpened because of the narrative of stocksnet which is fascinating. The worlds first stealth drone it hits and you done know anything happened until a year and a half later. Rose famous case in iran where they attacked the centrifuges of iran. And how that malwear was written. I am a novice about this a little about the malware, it read like narrative one component of the codes job is to take out the monitoring to say that you could the centrifuges is fine while another part opens up a back door while another part spins the centrifuges erraticall. Another part is there in case it was discovered take wn what discovered you. So it is almost like a chess game in reverse. And and the coders have egos. And they have shoutouts. And they have references to themselves and are reminded by the way, dont forget to go over here. So it became very dramatic. From there it was washington and getting a real sense of the world as it is and the veil kind of lifted because i wasnt aware of how much i personally wasnt aware of homuch our life had changed because of the degree of interconntedness. And its never going back. And its not an object or an apication or facility out there. Wre fish it ishe water were swimming in, it is all around us testimony is our medium now. Rose okay but to dig a little deeper the you went to washington and talked to some of the cybersecurity experts from the governmentness. Right. Talked to cybersecurity experts of the government fbi private Homeland Security mike rogers. Rose the house intelligence committee, not now and blackhat hack ares. People who had been blackhat hack ares like kevin polson who is now an editor add wired magazine. Another guy named. Rose went to prison. Went to prison for five years and then came out and wrote kingpin about a hacker named max vision. Rose right. And they had come up with great names for themselves. And you know about what motivates you. What is the high, what is the experience why are you so. Rose the personality and the character. Understand it is. Rose for somebody who is a hacker. Right. Rose why did they do it what is the charge for them. Exactly. Rose is it about money fame the challenge of doing it. A 15yearold kid, adept at it. There is firewall. Something says you cant come in here, want a bet. Particularly for the american. Rose and did you filling out whether we can keep up with them, are they always going to be able to get in . They are always going get if if they cant g in today sebody will discover vulnerability on thsday, is the sense it. So it is a consta evoluon. Because it is ubiquitous. Anybody with a fast enough laptop and a skill set can go exploring and can find a way in or groups of people can find a way in. So the more sophisticated bigger hacks sony or had to be done by state authors with teams of coders working fo a period of time. But then it became you know who is this character where is he from . What you know why does you know how did he get into the situation of a blackhat hacker. So i decided that the character should be basically a deckive story. But in this brave new world we live in is a detective trying to find and stop the bercriminal somewhere else in the world, and our main character Hathaway Chris Helms worth has a moral compass. He does live in the physical world. The person he is hunting is not his consciousness resides in kind of virtual reality. And what does that mean. Rose there are a lot of themes to work out there. Now did you have chris in mind when you for hathaway. I always had the character in mind first. Se the character. You knew what he was going to look like, what his moral compass was you know what his ambition is. I knew knew he was from the south side of chicago. He had a single father who was in the steelworkers union. Which i related to because i spent some time with ed in the 70s very progressive local among steelworkers. And he had that kind of directcentred intelligence that im used to. And the single father idea came from at happens to a son when he is brought up by a very responsible hardworking father. There are certain dynamics later in life particularly if they had a great elationship which they did. And by scholarship and smarts hes at m. I. T. Did y create the back story with the writer or did anyone else help you with that. I created the back story for hathaway. And then we then i brought chris into tha rose why chris . Because when i ron howard showed me 45 minutes of rush. Rose love that. And i thought this guy i so good. And he is so he immersed himself into that moment. Hes lost himself in the moment. He is that guy, and that is what i look for. Then i went down to meet chris in costa rica, he was there with his whole family his mother father wife brother. And we spent a couple of days. And in the native chris is a very good guy, very centered you know, he helps his father put a new roof on a garage. Rose hes australian. Hes australian. Hes australian. And i thought you know he is this guy natively. And he was very very excited about the process of immersing yourself in character and getting to the point where you know, you lose yourself in the moment and you dont know where you are. You lose your orientation. You are living the moment. And that is the kind of respond tan ate im looking for from spontanaeity from an actor. In the beginning of the movie, you see the velocity. Right. Of how something is sent out. A packet. Yeah. Rose and how fast it travels. And what happens to it. Speed of light. Rose how did you do that . I wanted it not see ever in this film anybody sitting and then i thought it was so dramatic when i came to understand what happens when a packet is simply processedby the chip in your ce phone. And what a packet is and what is a bit and abytement i wanted to learn those fundamentals. And then i wanted to try and tell the story of the intrusion actually in a physical world location in which it occurs. Which means youre getting into structures that are numbers of a tomorrows wide. And there is a magnification factor looking at a transistor that is probably 28000 to one it is done with cgi but based on architecture those places that this packet of ones and zeroes moves through thats the real architecture. That is what it lacks like. Rose so the challenge for this is also to tell a story. You have all the threat of hacking. You have all of the Sophisticated Technology that makes it so a interdependent and so consequence. Because if you can take down a Financial System if you can take down an electrical grid, all of the things that you can do. Right. Rose giv you a huge weapon. As you know leon panetta when he was secretary of defense at his herring said the next pearl harbor will be cyberwarfare, thats where it i coming for. Thats right is and the that became the territory. And i wanted not just the characters to come out of it and the mentality of the adversary to comeout of it but ao the waythe detectives story. Because helms worth actions is to find hems worth action is to ind an stop a cybercriminal somewhere in the world where nobody knows where or who he is. Rose and hes going all kinds of places. You done even know the point of or begin. The malware would be bounced across proxy servers one of which is pum bye because they dont keep mum buy because they dont keep good in this pursuit i want the detecting not being intimidating someone into an informant but in fact getting somebody to put a usb drive that their laptop loaded with malware. Rose take a look at this. This is a scene among the other terrific actors is viola davis without plays fbi agent barrett. She is explaining the stakes the stakes of hacking nsa. Here it is. Okay so how does it work . You get then to save the data, they run it. They have a remote log in. We run it. You are not thinking. Come on. They got the keys to the kingdom. Our guys address maybe whatever he is cook up next is right in there. Only we cant read i. Lets look. My old coresponse with donahue here. But there is no way tat login is still active. I not going to use that login. Donahue the nsa contact. If nsa dcovers the intrusion you sure you want to do this. Fbi cant explain after the fact. You locate this guy youre okay, you get discovered, irs dead meat. You know that, dont you . Rose now you watching this clip intently sitting at my table. Are you thinking what . You have seen this a thousand times. At least. Rose at least. Yeah. Rose but are you wching it with fresh eyes in any way . Im marveling at the fact that when something, when the acting is right chris and viola, that you can watch it, you can get it again and again and again. Biggest problem with viola davis is that all my editors want to cut to her all the time. She is so great. Rose that good. Shes so good. Rose what does that mean good. She just she it starts with shes so selfcritical you know. I mean we do a take after it is really good and shes andry. Rose youre happy and shes not. I maybe said that is a pretty good take, when its really is o of the park. We both know t okay. And she is just something somebody get viola angry she is angry at herself. Shes ally intense. And that moment with sh and chris whats happening is that chris is, by this point chris and tgecome lovers. Rose it happened pretty quick. It happens pretty quickly. And she knew about him from when shes with a little kid because her brother would send pictures. But they hes gambling their future to have a future. If heacks nsa to get the answer hes looking for to get the software to get an answer. And if he does that and hes discovered hes dead meat as viola says. And he does go ahead and do it. Rose back end. Yeah but they needed to restore some code. Rose here is the quote from you. The biggest struggle for me is always get the story to land. Right. Re wat does that mean . Get the story to land. Get audience immersed within thelow it so that they are feeling the way i feel when i go to a movie that i really love and i am kind of swimng away in it. Rose in other words, you want something to happen in your movie that grabs you. That grabthem. Rose grabs you a just takes yo puts you in a current and one part of your brain is saying i pe its not over too soon. And youre just kind of in it. That was me i watching really alien the first one. Kubarych films. Rose who has in fluenced you most . Kubarych lets start there. Kubarych i love won kai wi my friend Alejandro Gonzalez inarritu who si brilliant contemporary filmmaker. Rose my impression of what you like the most or perhaps is the construction of the whole thing. I mean just figuring out what is the story you want to tell tand putting the elements together more so than living in the editing room, more so than well its kind of all of it. It is very astute because we say all all of it. It really is in todays language people would talk about interweaving of texts. I dont. You know music, all of it. I mean its happening through time. I never was interested in film tatre all the brilliant stuff. It was just not for me. But designing that flowof the basic thing, basically a story it has to be a great story. And the people and the muss eck and the color and how should the story tell itself in, you know, both in color location, do i wanto make you feel anxious here therefore, do i have a low ceiling a compressed place. What is unknown around the corner. How i do find places that have corners with unknowns around them it brings you scene analysis classical scene analysis brings you in. Rose this is where hathaway, chris confronts the mercenary a sassin casser. Ca. Hands up hands up. Rose wow, dow like that scene . Yes. Rose tell me about it. The itsasser this is all back story that isnt necessarily a text is a roduct of the civil wa in lebanon. And i just hypothesized that he had to leave primarily when hezbollah really moved in and took it over. And his close quarter combat skills was a commodity. He was able to take on the International Market that is where he got picked up by the guy who he worked for. He is a little odd. He is emotionally in what he does. His pursuit and assault of hathaway is based on somebody who worked with him who got killed. And then hathaway with improvised weapons because he is not a martial artist he is a guy who is an mit student but in going to prison system he picked up kind of prisons gladiator. So what he knows about being lethal in a place where you dont just go buy a gun is what he knew from prisons. And so with improvised weapons he is stalking casser. He seduced him into going to a place a ceremony that is happening. And he is stalking casser to get the drop on him. He said earlier on in the scene with leanne t is all about if i can get close enough fast enough. Even thgh he just got the drop hathaway has gotten close. An casser says we have ver been this close. An ironic line, no one has ever gotten this close before. By this point hathaway and leanne using cyberintrusion have frozen all of their add remember sears money. And they their adversarys money. He said a sen teps you dont knee but i know you. And you are having a bad day there is an interesting origin for that line. Rose which is . Which is that there ws a bookkeeper in panama that was Money Laundering all of escobars money. And some people i knew in the dea who are brilliant at maniputing finances discovered who this guy was. Rose the accountant. The accountant in pan a marks the money launderer in panama. And they froze in one day they froze 28 of Pablo Escobars accounts. The bookkeeper the accountant now knew that he is dead his familys dead the dog the dog veterinarian everybody still in colombia is dead. And he got a message from the dea. You dont know us but we know you and are you having a bad day. And they flipped out. Rose was this sebody you knew. Who was a head of that operation. They flipped him and made him an informant and ran him for 18 months. And thats how eventuall they g pablo escobar. Rose why do you call it blackhat . Because im terrible with title and hathaway is a blackhat hacker. So blackhat is a designation for a kind of hacker who who writes and uses malware to get into places youre not supposed to get intoith malicious intent of some kind. And hathaways case it was sent to prison years earlier. It was carting wholesale lots in which banks get hurt. One of your ackers Christian Bale who you directed in public enemy said he is an extraordinary deckive his methodical nature and desire to turn over every stone which may end up having no relevance to the movie and certainly may not end up in the movie giv him all t subterranean infortion at his disposal. Thats exactly what you just describd. Thank you. Thank you christian. Because actors are brilliant. And they use it. They use everything. And so you see it come out in the most unlikely of places. But it informs their attitude. Rose if you had this or not would you have preferred to be an acker rather than a direct never. No. Thits a terrifying occupation. Rose blackhat, let me tell you when it opens. January 16th on friday nigh thank you for coming. Thank you, my pleasure. Rose pleasure to you have. Michael mann. Blackhat. Thank you for joing us. See you neck time. Formore on this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs. Org an charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgborg funding for charlie rose haseen provided by e Cocacola Company supporting this Program Since 2002. American express. Additional funding provided by provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwe. God isnt just about worship and faith. God is about making dreams come true in your life today by going to the source. Announcer dr. Deepak chopra, medical doctor, spiritual teacher and bestselling author, closes the gap between science and faith. We arent outside god. We are participating in god by simply being alive and conscious. Announcer simple, practical methods to profoundly improve the quality of your life whatever your beliefs are. The reason that god has a future is that once you contact the source there is infinite intelligence, creativity, ace