Transcripts For WHYY Charlie Rose 20140905

The countdown to the end of his consideration. Rose we continue with Maggie Gyllenhaal. Her new film series is called the the honorable woman. In this case its almost like a novel. You can go off on a tangent of something thats happening in the emotional life of someone youre playing, and it doesnt have to necessarily be a huge part of the plot, you know. Can just be something that get explored and left alone, lieb the way it is with the human being. You know, there are pieces of you that make sense and pieces that dont. I think its something about that, the kind of lessrational way of looking at it really moved me, like worked well with the way i am as an actress. Rose and we conclude this evening with rory kennedy. Her latest documentary film is called last days in vietnam. The u. S. Said were just going to get the u. S. Personnel out of the country. We dont have time to get the vietnamese, and the u. S. Personnel, many of them who were left on the ground, said not so fast. We cant leave our vietnamese friends, family, children behind. And so this story ends up being a story about these extraordinary acts of courage and heroism on the part of both americans and vietnamese to save vietnamese during those final hours. Rose david sanger, Maggie Gyllenhaal, and rory kennedy when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg. A provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose president obama arrived in wales today for a nato summit. More than 60 world leader leadee gathered in the city of newport. On the agenda, ukraine, the rise of the islamic state, and the future of afghanistan. Joining me from washington, david sanger, National Security correspondent for the new york times. He has a piece today under the headline, commitments on three fronts test obamas foreign policy. Great to be back with you, charlie. Rose heres what you say in the lead paragraph, vowing in estonia wednesday to defend nucial nations from russia for as long as necessary. President obama has now committed the United States to three major protections of its power. Pivot to asia, a more muskar presence in europe and a new battle against islamic extremists that seems very ikly to accelerate. Give me a sense of how these things impact the presidency at this time. Well, charlie, i think that there are two or three ways that these affect Barack Obamas presidency, and will affect his legacy as he enters this last two years and a few months of his term in office. The first is that he had hoped and said repeatedly that withdrawal from iraq and afghanistan would allow for what he used to say was nation building at home. In other words, that we would free up resources that we could spend here. And that was a theme of his 2008 and 2012 president ial campaigns. What weve discovered instead is that just at a time that he was getting ready to shrink the pentagon budget, hes got three major adversaries that hes got to go deal with more, really, in somes ways. The rise of china has left him with no choice but to do the pivot, and the pivot calls for moving forces so that you have roughly 60 of american defenses in the pacific by around 2020. The new moves by vladimir putin, which are unlikely to end with this set of incidents in ukraine mean that he needs a much more muscular move with nato along the russian border in those vulnerable nato states. That means estonia, latvia, lith waynea. And finally, the rise of isis means that hes not only back in iraq, even if its just right now from the air, but that he also is likely to have to go take moves in syria that hes resisted for years. Now if you add all of these up, you end up with a very, very activist International Agenda that is likely to be costly, and i havent heard anybody yet begin to put this in the framework of how you remake americas defenses or you shrink the pentagon budget. Rose the interesting thing, too, its a test of leadership. Thats right, charlie. And, you know, the white house does not like to hear this but the sense you get around the world and you get all over the world, so im sure youve heard this every place, this the sense that the United States is in a period of retrenchment and she that comes in part from statements like its time to do the nation building at home. So when you go to the middle east, you have many people say sometimes for reasons of their own agenda we dont see america as involved as we need them to be. When you go to europe, you hear people say all this discussion of the pivot makes us think pivot away from home. And when you get to asia, you have people who say when does the pivot start . We dont see a buildup here that matches the pace at which the chinese are moving into different territories, the degree to which they are challenging japan from the islands and the degree to which they are challenging vietnam, the philippines, and other states down in the south china sea. So hes working from behind the 8 ball here to convince people that in fact the United States will be there for them. Rose theres also the fact that the president has to do two things. One, he has to create confidence in his leadership among other world leaders, because he wants to engage these threats and challenges to world order with the combination of forces. He doesnt want to go in against or alone. That, number one. So hes got to convince leaders of his commitment and his stamina and his understanding. Yet, at the same time hes got to convince americans that this is not one more time where america is sliding into conflicts will take money and treasure and more importantly lives over a long period of time. So theres a balance between how he handles this challenge to figure out what he can do to achieve his own objective. Well, i think thats right, and thats part of the mismatch that i was writing about between the rhetoric and the realities here. In the middle east, one of the questions is why are many of the Arab League States and many of the sunni states not speaking out more strongly against these horrific acts conducted by isis, not only the killing of the two american journalists, which are horrific tragedies by themselves, but also, the killing of so many muslims. In europe, i think the president s quite concerned that he cant get out ahead too far of the germans, the french, and others, all of whom have economic ties that weve discussed in previous shows with the russians. And in asia, you have many countries that are deeply concerned about china but dont necessarily want to be the one to stand up. So in each of these cases, the prets the president feels, i think, very much like the United States has to being significantly involved, but he wants to be able to show americans that we dont want to confront these issues more than the neighbors do. Rose why arent the neighbors more concerned about this . In many cases, the neighbors are concerned about it, but dont want to be the first one to stand up and become a target. You see that certainly in asia, as many are concerned about the degree to which china can retaliate economically. Look what happened when japan stood up to the chinese a few years ago when there was the the arrest of drunken chinese captain who rammed a Japanese Coast Guard vessel. And immediately the chinese cut off japans supply of rare earth metal which are needed for electronics. It was a very raw power play. But you also see this happen in the middle east increasingly, where you have sunni states like the saudis, who are quite concerned about speaking out too openly about isis, which is in fact supported in some cases by many saudi individuals and charities. Rose china are we surprised by the aggressiveness or is the administration surprised by the aggressiveness of xi jinping . I think everybody has surprised by the degree to which xi jinping, who most people thought would spend his first few years in office, tending to the domestic Economic Issues which are huge facing the chinese these days. And i think that they are surprised that he has pressed many of these territorial issues. Now, one reason may be to bolster his own credentials with the military, something that his predecessor never had. But to some degree, charlie, i think part of the challenge facing the United States right now is that in china and russia and even in dealing with terror groups like isis, were facing problems of an entirely different nature. China is the management of a rising power, and thats a very complex thing that were not very good at, and the british werent very good at when we were the rising power. In russia, were dealing with a declining power, a power that is has got a shrinking population. Its stabilized to some degree now. That never really managed to join the knowledge economy, and that maybe acting out right now in part to try to gain some degree of credibility theyve been unable to do with economic reform and integration of the west. And now were also facing a terror group of a very different kind, one that is trying to take territory and create a new state within the lands of two other nations, and that, of course, create the possibility of Something Like afghanistan pre9 11. Any one of these challenges would be a very difficult thing to manage individually. Doing all three at one time seems to be overstretching the system. Rose and theres always the ticking clock which in this case, when you have things like whats happening in ukraine and whats happening with isis, the clock is ticking. Well, the clock is ticking on the other side of the world with leaders who know theyre going to be in office for some time. Jonathan zittrain is at the beginninjonathan xi jinping. Vladimir putin could stay until 2024, if he can survive the many challenges i suspect hes going to have. We dont know if isis is a power that will burn out, as many in the Intel Community believe it will. But there will be other forms of islamic extremism that will come out. But for president obama, he can hand out clocks, as president bush did, that indicate exactly what the countdown is to the end of his administration. And, frankly, when you talk to the people in the administration right now, many of them are exhausted. I think there is a broad sense that his top National Security team and his National Security y cabinet doesnt have some of the heft you saw sitting around the table in the first term where you had the likes of bob gate, you had Hillary Clinton and others who had independent ability to go argue with and talk to leaders around the world. I think secretary kerry is has probably done the best job of anybody in the administration of sort of setting out an agenda that way. But, of course, he spent a lot of his first year and a half on the israelipalestinian issues to fairly little result, while all the rest of these issues were bubbling along. I think now theyre playing a bit of catchup. Rose heres what i think upon in no way do you diminish the skill and talents and energy and abilities of all the people that hold power in america in various capacities. But there are within this country and you mentioned bob gates and Hillary Clinton and david petraeus, and a range of other people, both diplomats and military people when people who have over a period of years had a variety of experiences, and more importantly, a variety of personal relationships where they can speak with people in confidence. I mean, and i know that the president , if he thought this would do any good, Something Like this, he would do it, but you wonder why he doesnt bring together as general eisenhower had when he became president , sort of soularium, and he had people who came together to make sure that he had and he just listened to them a take on where the world was and what the demands of the moment were. Its hard to say, and certainly no one who sits in new york in a Television Studio should ever suggest what the president might know or do. You do hope that in a moment of clear crisis like this, on a variety of fronts, which you outlined in this piece today, that he is getting the wisest counsel possible, that takes into account and the broadest. And the broadest, exactly. And the broadest that takes into account those people who have relationships with a lot of people who wish us well but at the same time, have a very hard, realistic view of where the world is and what the possibilities are and what the challenge is. I think thats right. And i think one concern that people have about president obama is that hes very comfortable with a fairly small group of people who hughes known for a long time. And thats understandable, and president bush was the same one, bush 43, was the same way in many regards. But at this late stage in a presidency, its also hard to bring people in for a soulariumtype project, and think about entirely new beginnings, because you have a lot of people, who i said, are exhausted or leaving or thinking already about what the next administration is going to look like. So the timing is not ideal. And then i think on top of that, you have the fact that these issues are moving so much more quickly and playing out in public so much more vividly, that its much harder to imagine what American Power would look like. And, finally, you have a president in president obama who recognizes even if and has said so at various moments, that the United States is not going to be the kind of sole super power that it was 20 or 30 years ago. You have simply too many other rising powers. China, india, brazil, and others. He is comfortable, i think, with the concept of sharing power and sharing some burden, and frustrated by the fact that the chinese, for example, wont step up and say gee, this is our problem and were going to work toward a solution as well. So hes sort of caught at this uncomfortable moment where the United States recognizes the influence of others, but cant get them to act, at least in ways that we would think would be consistent with our broader interests and perhaps their broader interests. Rose david sanger, always good to have you. Great to be back with you, charlie. Rose Maggie Gyllenhaal is here. She stars in a new series on sundance television. It is called the the honorable woman. He plays a jewish english baroness who finds herself at the crux of the israelipalestinian conflict. It is said her performance all but deifies description. Here is a look at the the honorable woman. You know who i am. You know what i represent. Trouble for you. Not quite the woman she appears to be. Are you mi6 . No trail. Have you ever lied to me, nathaniel. No. You want to go to gooz . I want to meet him. It is dangerous. Is your secret safe . We cant be compromised. You already have been. I know your secret. You are so going to lose everything. We must be very careful. Tell no one. Whatever it is they want, theyll lose. Rose she also stars alongside Michael Fastbender in frank and independent film in theaters now. I am pleased to have Maggie Gyllenhaal back at this table. Welcome. Thank you. Rose you have said youre more pleased about this than almost anything youve ever done. Yeah, i think yeah. I think thats true. Rose because . I do think a lot of it has to do with the experience of making it, which, you know, i mean, on some level, just the scope of it, it being eight hours long, and ive never worked on anything like that, on anything that gave me the opportunity to express so much. Rose and fully develop a character. Yeah, i mean, you know, what does that mean. Were so used to watching things that are two hours long and we think weve developed things pretty fully. But in this case, its almost like a novel. You can go off on a tangent of something thats happening in the emotional life of someone youre playing. And it doesnt have to necessarily be a huge part of the plot, you know. It can just be something that gets explored and left alone, like the way it is with the human being. There are pieces of you that make sense, and pieces that dont. I think its something about that, the kind of lessrational way of looking at it really moved me, like, worked well with the way i am as an actress, i think. Rose who is your character . Who is she . I mean, well, i guess on the most surface level shes the daughter of a zionist gun runner, and she who is killed in front of her when shes a little girl. She inherits his company, and subverts what he was doing with it. So as opposed to running guns, she lays communication cable between israel and palatine and works towards reconciliation. And i think she really is trying to do something honorable. But its you know, what does that mean . I think its very complicated. I think shes also very broken and confused. Shes like all of us, shes shes trying to do good and also often doesnt know what that means. Rose have you looked at the middle east different because you were so deeply involved in this story about the israelipalestinian conflict . Yeah, definitely. I mean, i think before i started i knew as much about it as, you know, somebody who does their best to read the newspaper. I have two little kids. I i think its probably difficult for most people to watch the news about whats happening in the middle east now, and not feel emotional about it. So i did. But i think that its its just deepened without question. And the the other thing its done is i feel a different kind of compassion. You know, i never felt like i had like i was on one side or the other. And the peace certainly doesnt take a side. It lays out elements of the conflict, but my compassion i think has also deepened from having worked on it. Rose exaction fo compassione caught up in conflict. Yes, both sides, all sides, the things that make people act cruelly or violently. Just a different kind of understanding. Rose this is baroness nessa stein played by Maggie Gyllenhaal sitting with a woman named atica, a trusted and loyal employee of the stein family. Here it is, roll tape. Its okay, its okay, its okay. Can i get you something to drink . Go away. I cant do this. I cant. Yes, you can. Were strong. You and i. What if they find out . They wont. They might. They will never find out. I promise. Never. Never. Rose i was just telling you during the break while we were watching that, that clearly didnt reflict it there, but the notion of the half thing of you by hugo blic, who is the director, i wanted someone to have a cool exterior of intellectual presence and he saw that in you beyond in your presence, in your persona, rather than in a series of roles. Um, i mean, its funny because hugo said to me i remember when i met him. It was hard we didnt it took a minute for us to understand each other, hugo and i. And then in the end ive never had a more inspiring and loving and exciting Collaborative Experience with any director in my life. But at first i remember we had lunch and he was talking to me about doing it. He said, i know you can do kind of what you said. I know you can do the intellectual and powerful element of her, but i wonder about the emotional aspects of her. And i was thinking, i dont know i just kind of took that in. I didnt know what that meant. The truth is, there are moments, there are times in my life where i feel powerful and there are lots and lots of times where i dont. And i i dont know. I guess in the end nessa ended up being probably the most emotionally vulnerable character ive ever played in my life. Rose exactly. Thats just what i was going to say. Shes, like shes smart but she also sometimes feels totally at a loss. And shes sexy and shes sometimes totally not sexy. Shes all of these things. Rose very sexy and then very sort of vulnerable. Yeah, but on the one hand but then on the other hand. But thats also like everybody, right, really, and its in different proportions and different ratios but i relate to having all of that. And having somebody say to me before they know me, like hugo said i feel like you can take care of the intellectual element of can, and then, you know, i dont know sitting at the rehearsal table right now working on the real thing with tom stoppard sitting across from me and feeling like i cant even begin to am i am i an equal to have a conversation with tom stoppard at a rehearsal table . You can have so many different feelings about yourself in the same year in the same week in the same day, even. Rose im sure tom stopple would say yes, you are. Because what hes looking for, i would assume, is someone who will understand what he has written, you know, and understand sort of and bring to that table an interpretation that hed probably be excited to see. Right. Its exully really interesting this is all a part of this same conversation, but, you know, you go into a project like the honorable woman, which is eight hours, which is, you know, super fast television, you know, so many scenes every day. You have to come in and on some level feel like youre an expert because you have to just get through. And you cant mess around. But in order to have a real experience, in order to really learn something, in order to see what happens in the middle of a scene, you have to also go in not knowing at all whats going to happen. And its just been interesting to me to have worked on this, the honorable woman, and now go in and be started rehearsal where youre totally allowed to be a beginner, where were allowed not to have any idea so youre finding each other. But its so hard, its so hard to sit with people you respect around a table and go i dont know yet what the scene is about. Im going to sit here and not know. Rose do you like to choose things in which you know there is an element of risk for you . In other words, you know its a growing vehicle . Yeah. Rose if youre going to do a play with tom soppard, one of our great playwrights you know its going to be a challenge for you. You know because of his use of language and complexity of character. And its a play about love. Who knows anything about love. Who doesnt want to sit around and think about that and sex and marriage, all those things. Yeah, i do. I think i you know, i think its more interesting to watch somebody actually learning something than to watch someone pretend like theyre learning something. So i think i often am attracted to things that require that i have to learn something in order to do them well. Or maybe even to do them at all. Like i was just thinking about liking doing checkov with my husband. We just did tiny little checkov, 200seat theaters, but sometimes in checkov you dont even know what the words mean, what the scenes are about at all. If you sit around a taiblg and read them, some of them dont make any sense until youve learned something about, i guess, yourself, or the play. That was certainly true with the honorable woman. There were definitely place wheres of i especially, weirdly, in episode 8. We didnt shoot them in order. We didnt shoot episode 1, 2, 3. We shot in one day part of episo the 1, episode 5, episode 7. But the very end of the whole thing we shot at the end and i think it was just luck or the stars alining or something but i didnt know at all what those scenes at the end were about until we shot them, and i still couldnt tell you this is what theyre about and this is what it means. But i experienced them, and i learned something making them they dont think i would have been able to learn if wed shot them right up front. Rose are there more and more roles for strong, interesting women . Um, i dont know. Everybody asks me that. But im not really the right person to ask because in some ways i feel like, you know, when i was younger i was focused on the roles that were for, you know, a sort of confused, you know, whatever, growing, younger woman. And i just get focused on the ones that are for me. And certainly i read some that dont feel like reality and dont resonate with me at all. Rose but what resonates with you . I think its, like, when theres something in it that i dont understand so you have to learn to pull it off. Yeah, like the real thing now, for example, its like there are all these questions about love and what it means to be a woman my age right now, and what it means to be married and what it means to be faithful and what is sex . And what is love . And what is the real thing . Sp im interested in all of that. I dont know. Rose good for you. I mean, im not saying im going to figure it out but im just going to be in the territory of it. Rose and new dimension. Right. So the best writing and this was true i think of the honorable woman, too. This is what i think im looking for. Let me put it this way bad writing or okay writing, sometimes youre like theres one way through this scene and if i dont reach for that rung ask jump over this obstacle to get to the other one we wont get through it and it wont make any sense and this is the only way through it. And thats limiting and its not an opportunity to express something also about yourself and about your position in the world. Its just like how do you get through scene . Ive certainly done that. Every actor has done that. When youre working on Something Like the honorable woman where there isnt one way through it, there are 50 ways through it, and you need your own self in order to get through it, i need to invest nessa with me, also, me, and its the same with tom stoppard and the real thing. Its so good, theres not one way through it. Rose right, exactly. Im sure there are mistakes and places you can go off. But if youre basically in the river of it with another with other excellent actors, then there are so many ways to express it. And i guess i have so far i mean, hes like i said, i really am a fan of his. I really am amazed by him. I really feel humbled by being in the room with him. Rose did you say yes immediately . No, actually. No, it wasnt quite like that. It was like i. Rose did it come to you, or did you go after it . It came to me. But that was sam, the director, who ive been wanting to work with for a long time. I was actually i wonder if i should say this. Rose yes, you should. Another i just will. I was supposed to do another play with him and we were thinking about it. I was in london shooting the honorable woman. And it was actually it this really inspired couple of weeks. I dont know why. I dont know what it was. And we shot some of the best stuff in the show we shot in these couple of weeks. And i was working with an actor in london who was really inspiring me also at the time. And i went and met sam for a martini. I never drink martinis earth. I have two little kids. My kids really little. I think i had two martinis. Rose that will put you in the mood right there. He was working on the real thing and he said so off handedly, youd actually be great. And i at the time, i thought oh, i want to do that. Like, are you asking me to do that . What happened . But i didnt say anything. I went home. And i think i was inspired by the week i was having on the honorable woman where it was just on fire for some reason. And i wrote sam an email, and i said did you mean it . If you meant it, im going to reread the play. Because actually i hope im not just monologuing about this when i was in college, i took this class i was 17 and i somehow, like, snuck into this senior seminar about theater and theory. And austin quigley, who was the head of the college at the time was teaching it and he taught one class on the real thing that just blew my mind. I was 17, and your mind is ready to be blown. And it blew it. It was the thing. And so i had that memory of the play, and then i reread it, and i said to sam, look, id love to do it if youll have me. And he said, yeah. And then it took me a minute to go wait, wait, wait, wait. I can really do this . Do i want to do this . It took me a couple of weeks. Rose so did you call back and say, no, i was mistaken. Did you ever have that thought . You never got there. I always have that thought. I mean, especially at the beginning of rehearsal, actually this is not for me. No, not this is not for me. I think when i was younger i sort of more had a feeling of, you know, more like how hugo saw me when he first met me. Im powerful. Im fine. I can travel anywhere. I can do it by myself. Im cool. As ive gotten older ive gotten much, much more vulnerable and aware of the ways in which im freaked out, and so i remember actually starting the honorable woman, and i had the same feeling just the other day about the real thing. I started the the honorable woman, and three days in, i just got really terrified. And i thought ive never carried Something Like this before. Ive never done it with two kids. Like, can i can i manage it . And, you know, i was crying a little in my trailer and trying not to mess up my makeup. And then i realized the problem i think, the thing that gets terrifying is thinking you have to do is it sently or you have to be a excellently, or you have to be amazing at it and just living it and getting through each scene and each day is actually the way i think that you end up finding humanity and something interestsing in the work, but also the way you survive. I had the same feeg with the real thing the other day. Can i do this . And i reminded myself again, its just each day and just learning something and going kind of step by step. Rose i think just being a bit scared about the future makes it a lot more interesting. Anyway, the honorable woman, which i have seen, i happened to see it earlier in the year, is extraordinary. Everybodys talking about maggies performance, and it has a Historical Context and background that we all read about every day. So the honorable woman is now episode six . Tonight. Rose episode six tonight. And the real thing starts . It starts previews october 2 and opens on the 30th of october. Rose thank you for coming. It was a pleasure. Rose rory kennedy is here. She is an awardwinning documentary filmmaker. The latest film tells the story of the evacuation of saigon in 1975. Here is the trailer for last days in vietnam. We today have concluded an agreement to end the war and bring peace with honor in vietnam. Vietnam. We have adopted a plan for the complete withdrawal of all u. S. Combat ground forces. We are finally bringing american men home. The american troops were gone, and as a result, the house of cards began to collapse. We were dealing with an ambassador who was just convinced that somehow there wouldnt have to be an concern about evacuating south vietnamese. These people were dead men walking. Sometimes theres an issue not of legal and illegal but right and wrong. I borrow a truck and i karl rove them to the airbase. And i told them when you hear three thumps that means hold the babies mouths, dont breathe, dont talk, dont make anyinize. But i was going to get them out. The final battle of saigon has begun. That morning there huff been at least 10,000 people ringing the embassy. There was a sea of people wanting to get out. They looked up at the helicopt helicopters and i could see their eyes. There are no words to describe what a ship looks like that holds 200 and has 2,000. We have no more helicopters. Thats it. As it took off, i could see group right where we had left them. It was just so serious and deep a betrayal. Who goes . And who get left behind . Rose i am pleased to have rory kennedy back at this table. Welcome. Thank you for having me, charlie. Rose this is a story that needed to be told, first of all. Why did you decide it was a story that you wanted to tell . Well, ive always felt that vietnam is a seminole event in our nations history. Ive always been fascinated by vietnam, and i think we have a lot to learn from vietnam. I was particularly interested in telling this story about the the last days in vietnam. I think in part because of the timeliness of it in the midst of our withdrawal from iraq and afghanistan and the questions i think that the film raises about our responsibilities to the people left behind, how do we exit a country gracefully . Rose and protect those who have been on our side and who have risked their lives for us. Yes, exactly. And so those questions were in my mind as we were leaving iraq and afghanistan and looking back at this moment in history, i feel that there are a lot of parallels, particularly with what were seeing out of iraq today and what happened inside you cannot have more drama than you have here. You know, its an extraordinary story. I think a lot of people are familiar with the iconic image of the helicopter with the going from the embassy. Its not actually the embassy. And the desperation of people trying to get out. But very few people know the story beyond that or how we got to that point. So this film really unfolds in a quite dramatic manner, showing the events that took place during those final 24 hours, particularly. Rose the the story you tell is of the final 24 hours . Its largely the final 24 hours. The film sets you up as it to where we are in vietnam at the time of the fall. Its 1975. Two years earlier, we had signed the paris peace accord. So there were no troops in the country by the time these events take place. The peace accord had been signed. U. S. Troops went back. The idea was that the north and south would live faesfully together. The north broaght that peace, invaded the south. It fell like a house of cards because the u. S. Wasnt there. They thought it would take two years to get to saigon. It took four months. They got to the use of the city very fast. The u. S. Was unprepared. The u. S. Said were just going to get the u. S. Pern out of the country. We dont have time to get the vietnamese. And the u. S. Personnel, many of them who were left on the ground, said not so fast. We cant leave our vietnamese friends, family, children behind. And so this story ends up being a story about these extraordinary acts of cowrng and heroism on the part of both americans and vietnamese to save vietnamese during those final hours. Rose tell me who captain Stewart Harrington is. Hes a hero and hes a real hero of my film. Hes the voice that largely narrates the clip that you just saw. He was a captain in the army there, and he led part of the effort during the weeks leading up to the fall. There were a number of people who foresaw that the country was going to fall immediately, but the ambassador, martin, wouldnt hear of it. So he wouldnt aloi for any evacuation policy to be put into place. So Stewart Harrington, among a number of other people, started a black ops operation to get people out of the country, to get vietnamese secretly out of the country under the radar of the ambassador. Rose here he is, talk the beginning of the black hawks. People like myself other ands took the bull by the horns and organized an evacuation. In my case, that meant friends of mine who were Senior Officers in the south vietnamese military. As the north vietnamese came closer and closer to saigon, these people were dead men walking. I had arranged a signal with my Intelligence Community friends that if i said im having a pash coup, that meant come to a certain predesignated place and bring your families, and only bring one suitcase because were going to have a party but it was understood the party meant i was going to get them out. Rose there was more than one person like him that really understood the consequences of what was going to happen. Yeah, and there are the stories that are leading up to the fall of saigon. And our film pretty quickly gets spot last 24 hours, the airport gets bombed. And they said you have 24 hours to get out of here. And then there was a real desperation and panic in the city to get out. You might also be familiar with those images of people trying get into the embassy. Thats where level of desperation starts. The u. S. , as i said, decided to just get americans out on the helicopters and now the only place to leave was from the embassy on these helicopters. Ambassador martin who kind of redeems himself throughout the course of these moments and throughout the film then said were going to get as many vietnam its out as possible. They knew once all of the merns were out of the country, they would stop sending helicopters. So they filled the helicopters with the vietnamese. And the first if helicopter in was for martin and says you have to get out of the country, and he refused. He got more and more vietnamese out through the embassy. How many do you think there were . Jiervetion the course of that threeweek period, there were 130,000 vawps who were able to get oit of the country. About half of those, about 85,000 were evacuated thiew the events that you document, through the health of the Richard Armitage, who you were talking about early. He is a very unknown story. He singlehandedly well, with the help of vietnamese counter part got 30,000 people. Its an extraordinary thing. Its an extraordinary thing. And your story is not being told in great appreciation of his services. So now it is, i think, in this sphim. And we have, i think, some really extraordinary footage that helps document his story of saving these 30,000 people which is really an amazing story. His mission in vietnam was to get the ships out of vietnamese so they didnt fall into the hands of the north. And he told his counterparts we have to get his counterpart kim do said fine but the sairldz are going to need to man the shift and their entire family will come with them. We had a meet to they went to constant island, and he went around the corner and there were 30 ships and 30,000 people on the ships. And them he had to make the decision to send the people back or take them back to philippines. Rose ive known this for disawz i know rick armitage. I think very few people know that story. And in fact i got an email from his son about two months, three months ago, thank you for making this film and sharing this story because my dad never told me. Rose thats typical. Hes an amazingly humble man. People holding ladders saying, i work for the americans are. Please let me in. Journalists were arriving, and counting on being recognized to be let in by the marines. There was a sea of people wanting to get out by helicopters. But well, they looked up at the helicopters. And i could see their eyes. Rose so how could this have been avoided . Probably not going into vietnam would have been the best. Rose clearly that would have been the way to do it. Or withdrawing before the troops went there. You know, i think for me thats one of the big lessons in making this film and what ive learned is by the time we got to the point that you stee documented in this film, there were very few choices available. Rose the people negotiated the end of the vietnamese war. The nixon administration. Did they make the smartest agreement possible . Um, no. I would say it was i dont know that there were many options that were available even apt that point in 1973. I think that at that point we had basically lost the war, so it was the best agreement from a losing position. And i think kissinger recognized that and understood that it was limited in its scope and its able to be enforced but its best they could do at that point. Which is why i say you know, im quite serious about this and weve just been having a discussion about entering these wars with ice exphis syria and other places that once that decision is made, you know, wars have a force of their own. And they go you lose control over them. And so when you get to the point where you dont win, you arguably lose, there are very few choices. This, mamoment that you just see there, is a reminder of the human cost of war. And i think thats in many ways what im most proud of with this film and what it can contributes it a reminder of the humans that are the on front lines of this and the cost. Mary take a look at this. The arrival of the first u. S. Helicopters on the uss kirk. These young vietnamese pilot would go to their homes, land right in their front yards, ping their families and anybody else, and head out to sea, hoping they can rendezvous with the ships. Well, we were one of the first ships they saw. Our flight deck will only take one helicopter at a time landing. There are no wheels. You only have kids. We were looking for another price to land. Land. , of course, this was a big helicopter, thousands of pounds. We to figure out how to get it 15 feet over to the flight deck. You dont have time to think about what you do. You just had to do it. We opened up our flight deck, and they began to land, right after the other. Some of shem shot at, holes in them. Most of the vietnamese who came out im talking about the flight crews theyre heavily armed, all with side arms, some with m16 ready for anything, really. We had to disarm them. None of them had ever landed on a ship before. Everybody had a gun. And about five minutes later we pushed his airplane over the side. I was the second one. I helped push that one over, too. And the third plane came in, it landed also. We push ited wed thrown three helicopters in the water supply, i know you probably dont believe this, but its all troo. Rose it is incredible and it is all true. And where did you get the film . Well, the footage i got because i was talking to a friend who worked at the u. S. Navy, and he worked in the history department, historical department, preservation department. And so he was very familiar with the story of the u. S. Kirk, and thats how i came across meeting himp. And i told him we wanted to include this at your fip. He said, i was talking to a guy who was on the kirk about 4 months ago and went up into his actic and developed a box of foot annual, that said kirk on it 1975. Do you have any interest in that . I said yeah i have a lot of concern. He was i supported him a ticket. He came across the country. We developed the footage. And the footage you see there, the super 8 footage suspect we uses 12 minute of i think of his a lot of the Richard Armitage story he filmed the sections of that where you can see the boats. At the beginning of the trailer, the botts overcrowding some with peep. Thats part give peep a visual mplets. Panic has 20 from the coastal citys backstreet. Our plane is surrounded. I dont know how were going to get out. Were racing down highway, leaving behind hundreds of thousands of people. About a done are running along, grabbing at the airplane. There is a sea of humanity jamming on. Impossible to stop the crowd. Were pulling away were leaving them behind. Were pulling up people are falling off the air stars. The plane is taking off rose wow. Thats incredible, isnt it . Rose it is. Well done. Well, thank you. Rose its great to have you here. Thank you, charlie. Its so great to be here. I appreciate it. Rose the film is calle last days in vietnamese. Its part of pbs American Experience series. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org female announcer this program was made possible by by a generous educational grant from and by what if you discovered that dementia can be prevented . 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