Transcripts For WHYY Charlie Rose 20140710

People, i am confident they will, that they will find a good path through this current chaos. Hunt we continue with a conversation about the Political Landscape with mike needham, ed rollins and bob costa. I think if anyone has the inside track for the movement right it would be senator cruz of texas, there is no one having that reagan ineffective assistance of counsel message returning time and time again to a hardline that really appears to that right side of the party. We conclude with a look at baseball, with senator George Mitchell, Peter Gammons and richard sandomir. I have worried for a long time one of the reasons baseball is in so much trouble attracting a younger audience is it clings to the barnacles of the past but look at this season and we see the two great cuban players, plea, we see tanaka come over from japan, the two best players in baseball both under 25 years, carlos of the martins and mike trout of the angels, barely 25, 26 years old. This generation of Young Players i think is, has attracted not only a younger audience but a very diverse audience. Hunt conversation about nigeria and libya, politics and baseball when we return. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Additional funding provided by and by bloomberg. A provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Good evening, i am al hunt filling in for charlie rose, who is on assignment. We begin the program with retired general carter ham. He was the commander of u. S. Africa command until a year ago. He over saw u. S. Defensive interests in libya and nigeria and earlier he was a Top Commander in iraq, i mentioned he was one of the few army that rose to four stars i am pleased to have him on this program. Thank you very much. I am happy to be here. In al qaeda, in africa and the middle east is in on the rise or ascending or in the decline. It is very episodic, it depends on what local you are talking about, that is one of our challenges we tend to look at africa as a whole, a single entity but it is quite diverse, so in east africa, alshabab who is largely controlled somalia for a long, long time is, i think, on the back foot, as our bring fish friends would say, certainly very violent, attacks recently in kenya, the West Gate Mall attack, the attacks in lamu, very heavily resort area, so they still have striking capability but they dont control nearly as much of somalia as they used to. To include the capital city of mogadishu. In general, there was a sense after we killed bin laden that they were in decline, that we really had beaten them. Did we miscalculate . And what should we do now with these new challenges that are posed in africa and elsewhere . One of the chance of al qaeda it is not a hierarchal organization. These local franchises or regional franchises if you will are quite lethal, and while they are guided by a common ideology, they resource themselves differently and sometimes conduct themselves differently and so too have killed bin laden was a good thing. I mean, that certainly was detrimental to the, to al qaeda, but it doesnt it doesnt necessarily translate to immediate operational effect on the ground for some of these regional organizations. Hunt one of those regional organizations is Nigeria Boko Haram what is the relationship to al qaeda . I dont know and i think it is a little unclear. They certainly have some common ideology, but to the best of my knowledge there is not a formal affiliation between boko haram and al qaeda, as there is between some other, such as alshabab or al qaeda and the lands of the islamic, nonetheless i think they are guided by a common ideology, very violent, increasingly violent and certainly destabilizing in the region and have demonstrated a clearly stated an aspiration to extend their violence and their influence beyond the region of west africa, these individual organizations in africa, shabab, al qaeda and the lands of the islamic al sharia and boko haram, each individually are quite dangerous but really what concerns me in my previous assignment as the commander of Africa Command were worry some indicators of collaboration and coordination amongst the groups. Well, one of the boston things, among the many awful things boko haram did in april they captured those young girls and still 219 are missing. What the radicals are demanding is a swap, an exchange, and one of our goals as i understand it is we want to try to cut off or reduce their funding but a lot of their funding comes from kidnap and ransom so that is a dilemma as to what to do. It is very much so, and of course u. S. Policy typically has been that we dont engage in those type of activities but it has certainly been the case that private individuals and others have provided ransom money to boko haram and other terrorist organizations that have enabled those organizations to buy weapons, to buy influence, simply vehicles, gas, food and the like. Hunt general, lets switch to so mail, libya. Qaddafi but you look at libya now the country is more chaotic and violent, al qaeda seems to have more of a stronghold was the enter invention worth it . It is important i think to go back to the purpose of the initial enter invention which was encapsulated by United Nations Security Council resolution that was focused on the protection of civilians. We forget about it now but if we go back to early 2011, in february, march, and we rib if we, if the people do remember at that time, the libyan army, the qaddafi army was on the outskirts of benghazi, we heard words from qaddafi himself and his spokesmen, words like we will hunt them down like rats, we will exterminate them, meaning the people in benghazi. Words that the world has heard before, and so i think the United Nations took a bold step and i think governments of the United States, france and many others agreed to uphold the u. N. Security Council Resolution and prevent the libyan army from doing what i believe they would have done and killed unknown, untold thousands of people in benghazi, that was the genesis of the intervention it was not to remove the government of qaddafi, it was to protect civil wants and so that was the genesis of that effort and i think in that regard, the intervention was both necessary and certainly successful. Could we have done a better job post intervention after qaddafi . And what is the future of libya . Yes, i think this is the challenge of these these very complex situations that occur in africa and the mideast and other places. The military piece is almost the easy piece. I wouldnt say it is easy but it is relatively defined in this case, protect civilians and so the military instrument was used, i led the effort initially before transition to nato, but to say, to accomplish a specific military objective, it is much, much harder, much more complex than to say, how do we help this country out of chaos . Is there any optimism for the shortterm or medium determine . I am not sure shortterm, i am fairly pessimistic but i am a longterm optimist for libya, havhaving met many libyan peopl, what they searchish almost irrespective of their political aims what they cherish for the first time in most of their adult lives the opportunity to for selfdetermination. The violence now precludes that and so there will come a point in time, which the libyan people will decide, we can no longer tolerate this level of violence. We have to stop killing one another whether that happens this year or next year or in five years, i dont know, but i believe that time will come and when it does, i am confident they will find a good path through this current chaos. General, you have said that you dont want to relitigate benghazi which has become a political football in washington. You were in charge, let me just ask a couple of questions, just to clarify. You were in charge in september 11th 2012 and am i right, i think you have said this, within hours of the awful attack which killed ambassador stevens and others you were aware this was an act of terrorism, not a random act and you so reported to secretary panetta and the chairman of the joint chiefs . I happened to be in the pentagon that day for meetings with the secretary, with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the other Combatant Commanders and service chiefs, within just a few moments of the attack being initiated i was 0 notified by my command center in germany that something was going on, we didnt know precisely what it was, informed the chairman of the joint chaff, general dempsey and immediately went to update secretary panetta, it became clear very early on that because of heavy machine guns, because of rocket propelled grenades there was some degree of sophistication to this attack. Hunt on that day certainly. Hunt within. Within a short period of time from the beginning of the attacks we knew this was clearly, to me and the command this was a terrorist attack. Hunt well, but there really wasnt in your mind a susan rice testified five days later that it was probably suggested that it was a random act because of the antimuslim video but at that stage you were convinced it was terrorism . Well, i would, the fog of war was alive and well that day, it was difficult to get a clear vision of what was going on and frankly we didnt spheand lot of time figuring out why did this happen . We were trying to figure out what happened, what was happening and what could we go about it. But i dont recall there being anymore than kind of a passing conversation or discussion that this was a spontaneous rally or Something Like that, because of the video, so i do not i dont have any personal recollection that there was any serious thought that this was an antivideo demonstration that somehow spun out of control. The other critique is we could have provided air support more quickly, you were in charge. Could we have . Yes, we could have, but in the runup to september 11th, as you might suspect we had lots of conversations about what do we think might happen . And how do we want to be prepared for that lots of conversation with the embassies and other facilities around the continent of africa and so we thought kidnappings, maybe improvised explosive devices, those kind of sniper, those kinds of attacks where the most likely thing to happen on the anniversary of september 11th, so we considered, i considered whether it made sense to have strike aircraft on stand by, certainly a capability, but came to the conclusion that that was not the right response capability for the types of events that we expected. Hunt that was your decision. That was my decision. Certainly people have secondguessed that, most of them are people without military background but i understand that, and even after the attacks began, there was, you know, well possibly we could have mobilized aircraft and the like and again my military judgment six, there was no there was no benefit to doing that. In a very densely populated area, we didnt have precise information about who was where, you know, what would they do . So it became a very complex issue but ultimately my decision was that strike aircraft were not the right response. Let me switch to iraq. Nine years ago you were the commander there in charge of mosul. Yes. Hunt were you surprised that that radical Al Qaeda Group isis was able to take over no sill . It is heartbreaking. I served in mosul from 2004, 2005, to include through the first elections in january of 2005. I came to love the people there, the people of that city, mostly sunni arab and kurdish, so to see what has happened to that city and to those people is truly heartbreaking. The question now is, how do we help the iraqis reestablish an adequate level of security and i think the deployment of advisors, i think is a good start. We trained that army for over ten years. Right. Hunt and when that hit, isis hit, they collapsed. Isnt that worrisome . It is very much worrisome. Given that the treasure and lives that were lost in iraq, but i think it also is indicative of how complex these issues are. There is a military component to be sure, but my personal view is that the failings in iraq, while certainly military failings if you look at how that military was led, developed, resourced after we left, it was not done in the manner in which the u. S. Had tried to instill within the Iraqi Government. So i think largely a political shortcoming on the part of the Iraqi Government more so than a specific military shortcoming. General, let me close with a personal question. You were the highest ranking officer, i believe, to talk about your own experience with post combat, traumatic stress. First how are you doing . I am fine. And just to be clear, i was never diagnosed with post instrument stress disorder but i did have, when i came back from iraq in 2005, i wasnt the same, and my wife pointed that out to me, but, you know, i didnt feel fulfilled, i felt like i needed to still be in iraq, i was working at the pentagon, i just didnt feel like i was making a valuable contribution. You know, i wasnt sleeping particularly well, i was short with my wife. I was i wasnt a good husband. I wasnt a good father. I wasnt a good friend. Hunt and you got help . Yes and for me it was an army chaplain, who i had known for many years and i was able to meet with that chaplain and have conversations and that was very, very helpful to me to kind of get me back on a good track. I was actually glad to have the opportunity to talk about that. Now you talk about a suicide of a veteran every day, 1,000 Mental Health posts untilled right now. Is society readdressing this . I think the biggest challenge remains the stigma, the reluctance of Service Members or veterans to seek help. And that is why i spoke out. Was to say if it is okay for a fourstar general to say, hey, i had some problems. Hunt right. And i needed a little bit of help to get through that then maybe if one other soldier or say lohr, airman, marine said hey if it is okay for the fourstar to get help maybe it is okay for me to get help too. Hunt thank you for doing that. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. Hunt stick with us, we will be right back. Hunt the movement of the tea party played a huge role in, depending on your view cast a huge shadow over the Republican Party. This season the establishment, chamber of commerce, karl rove fought back. There are conflicting narratives, one is that the establishment reasserted its dominance defeating tea Party Challenges in north carolina, kentucky, mississippi and Speaker Boehner, Kevin Mccarthy in charge of the house. The other is that despite a few electorial defeats the right dominates the agenda as the party in establishing candidates move to the right on the stump and in congress. Joining me now from washington, mike needham, he is the ceo of Heritage Action for america and with me in new york, ed rollins who has been in these wars for more years than either one of us care to admit, a veteran republican strategist and bob costa the National Political reporter for the washington post. I am pleased to have them all here. Thank you. Hunt you have heard this conflicting narrative, Michael Needham let me start with you. Which do you think is closer to reality. I think the second is. The conservative movement has been around for 40 years and if you put your wide angle camera on and look at where we stand right now ten years ago transportation bills, floated 100 billion transportation bills were flying through congress with only eight no votes, farm bills farm subsidies are flying through and now that bill has stopped and a real debate in washington, d. C. About these types of issues and the most interesting policy proposals on either side of the aisle are coming from conservative leaders, lee, henson looking at housing, ted cruz on energy, bobby generallal on healthcare so i think you have real momentum behind conservative ideas and the kind of broken status quo in washington that made so many people on both the right and left fed up with our Nations Capital has ground to a stop. So i think it is a great time to be a conservative and seeing that energy all over the country, really change in washington. And do you agree, and there is some there are some schisms here the chamber of commerce has a different agenda than mike and Heritage Action. Well the chamber of commerce in all due respect to tom donahue one of the great leaders of any external group in washington has got his agenda, the Republican Party and the conservative agenda is one and the same. I started out as a reagan democrat and became a conservative, i was jack kemps chairman and i think to a certain extent it is that combination and the tea party and conservatives out in the field, the grass roots of our people, they are the activists the establishment establishment can go out and picked good candidates these are not fringe candidates or liberal candidates, these are good solid republicans and go gone out and basicallysed the mechanical tools to elect them but that does mean we dont need the volunteer forces or the conservatives out there in the country to call themselves tea party or not, we need all, for a Minority Party we need all the help we can get and cant be split. But bob there are tensions i mean, to be sure in compared to democrats they are on the same bone but a lot of tensions between the establish if you will and the move right, i think there is certainly tension but the question is what kind of tensions are these . And i am not so sure have is an ideological battle gng on, sure portman of ohio has a different view of marriage than the party line but not an ideological civil war but temperaments and tactics we saw with the shutdown government and the ted cruz wick of the party versus the john boehner wing that wants to govern govern and get through itable do they defer on policy on a lot of issues, but they have a different perspective on how to handle the. Area. You spent time in mississippi, a really brutal race down there, significant . I think mississippi was significant, one it shows cochran was able to win a tough runoff by going out to democrats and asking for their vote, i am not so sure we will see that across the map in 2013 but some republicans like cochrannt and others running this year are trying in some way to broaden the electorate on the republican side, maybe that is reaching out to black democrats in mississippi, maybe it is reaching out to young voters who support same sex major. You cant remember hayley barber, a great reagan night. He owns that state and did a lot to help that election. Without it i think look every everybody agrees we need do expand the party, the question is how do you expand the party may be relevant to mississippi but lets go back to the question of tension. I dont know that i would use the phrase tension i think there is a healthy policy debate going on in the party that is something that conservatives as americans we should agree and it is really on liberals on College Campus trying to stop Commencement Speakers against debate blue is a real debate going on in the Republican Party between what i would call conservatives who believe in the Free Enterprise system and, al, you mentioned the chamber of commerce which is a lobbying group for business big business they have a right to do that and raises itself in stuff like import export banks going on right now. This isnt a question of tell temperament, no ideological you can depend boeing, the corporate cronyism from an ideological standpoint the question is are you willing to take on the type of corporate cronyism that corrodes so reliant on big business checks that get cut at dc steakhouses you are afraid to take on those sacred cows i think there is a healthy debate going on in the party, a good thing for the party, it shows the kind of validity and the selfconfidence we have in the ideas but a real debate. I think certainly there is a real debate my question about temperament is this when you look at what is happening this week a discussion about executive orders and how the conservatives and republicans are responding to them Speaker Boehner decided to sue the president and stew him how he is handling executive actions on the other side of the coin on the republican in the republican world you have sarah palin and other conservatives calling for impeachment it is a question is impeachment really the course of they want to a take in this moment, there is real tension of how to go out, the let me stay on the point for a second that mike made about the Expert Import Bank and boeing bank, should the party be less close to wall street, ed . I think they should, to be perfectly honest, i think wall street is basically gone both sides, i think we have to be true to our philosophy and our philosophy a longterm if we want to be a significant party we have to be a fiscal party that attracts young people on the fiscal issues. You cant walk away from the moral agenda but still there is a large segment of our population but if we want to attract young people, we are fiscally conservatives that want smaller budgets and things meaningful to most people. There is no place to convince me Export Import Bank created jobs here. It certainly has been good for boeing and some other but not good for delta, though. Mike, do you feel the same way about wall street as boeings bank as you put it . Well, i dont think we should demagogue wall street one way or the other, we should be in favor of Free Enterprise, i largely agree with what ed said there is a great opportunity to be a party of Free Enterprise, Companies Like uber, like air b and b, Internet Freedom and those type of issues is the way we can resonate with younger descroarts and the spirit of entrepreneurship that made america great. There are powerful interests that can write Large Campaign checks that dont want uber to succeed and this is going up in new york city between endriven hotels and b and b, we are the party that stands on the side of that sort of innovation and let Chuck Schumer be the one snrirting with the chamber of cf commerce an that is a great divide to have on the american divide and the American People can judge on that. On the issues on the issue of immigration that seems to divide the party at least in part, i think Speaker Boehner would like to bring immigration bill to the floor are but he doesnt because of the caucus, mccain has had different views, does the immigration issue going to bedevil republicans . It is bedeviling republicans right now, when i was on the ground following Chris Mcdaniel in mississippi, there was a talk a lot about populism and going against the bank in washington but immigration was at the forefront of daniel losing its way in washington, that boehner and others in the Republican Leadership were trying to push too much, to create some kind of comprehensive deal, i think that is where a lot of the anger is now with ten within the conservative grass roots, you saw what happened to the Republican Party in your home state of i california. I saw that and also involved in the 86 immigration bill and if that would have been enforced and the employers didnt do their part of the portfolio, we allowed 5 million illegals in the country at that point in time, three and a half million came legal on that bill. When the bill passed it took reagan to get that bill through, it is a bipartisan bill, we have to do something with the 14 Million People but with a it has to be a comprehensive bill. Nobody trust this is administration. At the end of the day you cant have open borders and i think the reality is it has to be a bipartisan bill and thats what we need today. Michael needham your perspective on this . Yes, i think there is a lot of Common Ground on this, there is nobody more pride for the ingrant story than a grass root immigration activist and doing it the legal way and trying to create a great life for yourself and your family and i think if you look at 90 percent of the issue how do we create a modern 21st century immigration system where people can come here in an orderly fashion and be safe, there is a lot of agreement in the Republican Party and a lot of disagreement between president obama who basically want to use this as a political football and a way to get people to sign up for labor unions, which explains his opposition to guest worker programs and other things. The question of legalization for people who came here and broke the law is one that is divisive, i think it is a fundamental issue of fairness that if one person overseas their visa they shouldnt be able to be here taking advantage of opportunity that the person who followed the rules went home in an orderly fashion doesnt have access to. Michael thats what we need to celebrate now. What are you going to do about submit. The first thing we should do is modern flies the immigration system, fix it, we dont need to solve every single problem at one, we get into a lot of problem in washington, d. C. When you are going to do one big comprehensive 2,300 page bill that solves all of our nations else at once. Lets solve the problem. Lets come up with a modern system that matches supply of labor and demand for labor and once you do that you will have a lot more flexibility from the American People to look at some of these thornier questions. You dont think deportation is a feasible approach, do you . No, i dont think anyone is suggesting deportation, think think is an issue going down at the border and pretty bipartisan agreement something needs to be done there in terms of deportation, but look the first step is to have a modern immigration system. We dont need to solve the thorny issue of the people who are here as part of that effort, how do we match demand for labor with supply of labor through some combination of high skill workers, guest worker programs, increasing the cap of people who can come into this country that is the real problem, the problem once you have done that, you can then look at people who are currently here and figure out who gets to stay, who doesnt get to stay and that is a question for a later date, once you built up trust that the system is actually fixed, and going back to eds point about 1986 that is exactly what people are afraid of if you set the precedent we are going to grant amnesty it becomes an incentive for more and more people to come here so we need to avoid that kind of comprehensive bill and actually solve the problem that exists. And cant expand the number, 300 plus Million People and still deal with small number of people, but there is no reason we cant have five, six, 7 million legal immigrants come into the system every year and basically absorb them, let me turn to 2006 teen, again using this loose term the movement right, bob is there anybody that has the inside track in the Republican Party now and are any of the prominent the prominently mentioned candidates unacceptable to that wing of the party . I think if anyone has the inside track for the movement right, it would be senator cruz of texas, there is no one who is having that reagan esque message who ask returning time and time again to a hardline that really appeals to that right side of the party. You see rand paul wading into the movement right, but he is really doing a different dance, he is trying to reach out to young people, reach out to the populist that mike was talking about. Libertarian. Cruz are both steart, and rand paul but they are different conservatives. It is the fierce way they go after kessel and beyond that, you see on the establishment side, the more business wing of the party i think Chris Christie has a lot of problems with the movement right, i think he is successful as a republican in new jersey but not their favorite, jeb bush for his view on immigration, he is not a favorite of the movement right, and i think that is a problem, movement right likes cruz and the sarah palins of the party but is there anyone in the movement at this moment who can really win the nomination and perhaps win a general election, i think that is an open question, michael cruz beat paul, anyone else you want to throw in, and their strength and also anyone who would be unacceptable . Well, goodness, we are 18 month away from New Hampshire voting look i think healthy primaries are a good thing for the party, barack obama was a better candidate against john mccain because of the tough primary that he had upon through, and a better debator and speaker after going through that kind of debate with hillary clinton, adding if you can have a hell at this debate where rand paul get to talk about what differentiates him from ted cruz, from scott walker, from bobby jindal, so many people who are, you know, really a players, that sat good hinge, make them all better candidates. Give me an analysis of cruz versus fall, they are different, they are both conservatives, which has more appeal for the people who are part of Harry Jackson at this stage . I think both of them are great, look when rand paul stood on the floor of the senate filibustering and asking a question of the president of the United States, my wife who is a democrat i admire that asking tough questions and totally reasonable question and because he took the tough stand he got his answers and i think he turned a lot of people on to the Republican Party, i think when you look at ted cruz and everything that has gone on with obamacare it was an honorable effort to put as much emphasis behind obama care and trying to is stop it last october, it is a shame the. Would make sure to make this sure failing law went forward, so he is excited and that is what is exciting about the Republican Party right now, you go through washington, rand paul, marco rubio, these are exciting people, scott walker, bobby jindal, nicki hayley out in the state a lot of excitement all across the party and frankly compared to four years ago i think we are in a really strong position. Well, michael, i dont think yoyou left out anybody, ed rolls met let me ask you in closing, ted cruz is he reaganesque. He is a very brightman, i think he and rand paul are in the top find, you brushed aside the governors, we have some very significant governors, still you have to go through ohio, iowa, south carolina, you almost need to win one or two to get a jumpstart, the critical thing who can raise 200 million, i am also for primaries, i wish we didnt have winners take all and proportional i wish it got dragged out so people get their case known. If you dont get through the anywhere first few you are out and very significant people could last longer and be very viable candidates. Well on that note i want to thank you, ed rollins and thank you mike needham, and thank you. 18 month to New Hampshire, you know, we cant wait, right, bob . Cant wait, dont forget iowa, though. Thats why a lot of people are talking about mitt romney in 2016. I wouldnt be shocked. That is a different program. Thank you very much and stay with us, we will be right back. Baseball season is approaching halftime, next news is is mlb allstar game, here to look at the season and the state of the game we have three unique experts, join us from cape cod is Peter Gammons, he is an mlb network insider, the Gold Standard of baseball reporters, George Mitchell who is when not leading politics or rescuing the world made his report on drug use and sandomir with a keen understanding of the business of sports, i am pleased to have them all, welcome. Let me start with peter, peter, at the Halfway Point what strikes you about the 2014 season . And what are you looking for in the second half . I think what really psyched me out is the buzz of the Young Players in baseball. I mean, i have worried for a long time one of the reasons baseball has so much trouble attracting the younger audience is it clings to the barnacles of the past, but look at this season, and we see the two great players, susman and plea, tanaka come over from japan, and we see the two best players in baseball, both under 25 years old, john carlos sat on the of the marlins and mike trout of the angels, 25, 26 years old, this generation of Young Players i think is attracted not only a younger audience but but a very diverse audience and the fact the game is finally accepting, you know what . Yes, he flips his bat every once in a while, i did that when i was ten years old it is okay to love playing and i think that is what struck me 0 most in the first half of the season and it carries over to the allstar game where all of those people will be performing. Sam, what about you . What strikes me is the competitive balance that has been achieved. It was about 15 years ago that the commissioner selig approached me and some others to create a Blue Ribbon Commission on the competitive at expect of sports. The loss of competitive balance, and since then, the degree of competition has been increasing so you have the extraordinary fact that right here at mid season there are quite a number of teams hovering just around 500, they lost as many gapes as they won who still have a chance to may make the playoffs. Richard you won a, wrote a wonderful piece about lou gehrig, what would the ironman think of todays game . He wonders why pitchers cant go nine innings and complete games because he played in so many consecutive games. I think he would like the garages he played in the shadow of babe ruth who was colorful, i donidont think i dont know ie liked all the colorfulness, he was a grinder, he was a great grinder, who probably would he recognized the game, it would be just a little maybe too flashy for him. Sam, you know, the enormous respect i have for you so this saves me this is a painful question to have to ask you, you are a consultant and form her director of the former Boston Red Sox how do you go from worse to first to worse . The only thing tougher than winning the world series is winning it two years in a row. It is very difficult, a lot of luck, chance, when you which win things go right for you, 0 you get good bounces and injuries and a lot of factor this is a tough year for red sox, for the red sox and their fans. Peter, coo do you have any explanation . Well, i agree with what him. If you really look at these two teams, you know, they are both somewhere inbetween the over achieve this year and underachieve this year but the transition they are trying to make with a lot of Young Players, i believe they have five rookies playing regularly for them. The veteran players havent been able to produce, hasnt been the power, it has been a great deal of pressure throin on the shoulders of all these Young Players and playing in boston, new york, a philadelphia, and being under that microscope ask very difficult, i think they have gone through that transition period. I think as they make the second half of the season, almost like a prelude to spring training, i think they will play much better but i think that is only because the pressure will be off and i think they will let the Young Players talent start to he memory rather than worrying about everything he do. Let me ask you, peter, about what i think the oakland athletics, the best record in baseball, the 25th highest payroll is bean the greatest executive in the game . I think she the most creative. You know, it is hard to get ricky and in years past, the thing about billy and i think a lot of what he does is misunderstood because of money ball. Okay, he was always looking, searching for undervalued properties but at the same time the thing that struck me in having known him so well for so many years going back to the playing days is that he is so flexible. He has great intellectual flexibility. His ideas change all the time, he used to be onbase percentage and then defense, pitching, how do you use the biggest Home Field Advantage in baseball . He never stops coming up with a way to change the way he thinks. And i think that i don i doe what the business. I think that really makes for invent if theness and just the ability to recreate oneself all the time. He might even be able to run the senate. First let me ask you, though, the reverse of that, if the new york yankees your hometown team. Yes. Has a payroll, athletics are 83 and the new york yankees are over 200. They are barely over 500. The oakland as have gotten, billy beane is so used to the constraint of his payroll, the constraint of working in that environment where the coliseum is not a very good place to play, you wont throw up any revenue, the yankees have the advantage of money that just keeps getting minted so you kind of get used to being able to buy your way to a pendant and buy your way to the world series, a lot of the players there and a lot of spare parts playing, i tell you the third baseman is replacing arod and in the minors and somebody else you never heard of, last area they had a lot of no names and that really pushed attendance down, this year, they have fewer no names, jeter is back, shearer is back, shearer is okay, not great, jeter is having a pretty good season but he will be gone, no mariano this year, no certain difficult of a closer, necessity is the mother of invigilance, invention, bean and the as have done a terrific job. He is the general manager and the as as a competitive playoff team, they havent been able to go deep in the past years this may be the year for them. They made a big trade for a pitcher the other day too. Let me ask you, every ball bark in america has 42 to commemorate Jackie Robinson and the great branch you mentioned earlier he did but Major League Baseball eight percent of the roster is africanamerican that stay third of what it once was, what would should baseball do what can they do to attract more Young African americans . It is i think it is a california cultural issue that goes beyond baseball, i dont think you can isolate it just to baseball. In pa baseball, it has been influenced in part by the tremendous increase in latin players, as you know, at the time that africanamericans were a larger percentage, there were very few Latin Americans and now many more, asian and other upon american players, you mentioned tanaka, but i think baseball is trying but has to intensify its effort to get young people engaged. It is just more competitive in more sports, soccer for one a lot of youngsters are getting into soccer, including african americans, tennis, golf, other sports, i think baseball has to work harder and better and i think more invent if thely to try to maintain the interest among africanamerican athletes. I think we are very lucky in boston. We have something called the south end Baseball Program which is the largest free Baseball League in america. They branch out to a number of teams, including the boston astros, who won several National Championships in au baseball, most important, 62 kids will come out of that league, play college baseball, including a lefthanded pitcher from vanderbilt which is pretty remarkable from whence he came but the the thing they tie together post baseball, ask the educational element, our program is well intended, it never has been able to reach that and i think it is really important they get that together now. I understand the ncaa, they basically, essentially have eliminated minorities in college baseball, because you dont have full scholarships but at the same time if these urban groups and they need to be funded, not necessarily by Major League Baseball but by people who really care about their city, if they can get those kids to start getting them into baseball, tying together the educational with the baseball, and i think we have seen it really start to blossom in boston and in chicago, we were there for a game, to play some kids in the Jackie Robinson league on the south side of chicago, the same type of enthusiasm and the same educational tie in, i this think is a lot that can be done. It may not have any relevance to freamps but just in general, african americans, the games are awfully long, Major League Attendance is down this year, television ratings, richard, you know, i mean the nfl regular season based world series, there is not as much offense as there used to be. Yes. If it goes the way it is going it could be the lowest offensive output in 22 years, 4. 1 runs per game. It is pretty tough, you know, i dade story the other day about how the world cup games are over in less than two hours, even a game with half an hour of extra time is over in two and a half hours, no, realtime, no commercials in the game, baseball has natural ingamestop packages but the stoppages have been bloated by too much commercial inventory and also Baseball Players just dawdle too much they should be on the clock and forked to be on the clock and penalized for being off the clock. You cant change the nature of baseball, it is not a game of intense action or continuous action like soccer, but there have got to be things they can do and enforce. And they changed the game before i remember they lowered the mound at one more time to get more offense would you make changes now . Yes but keep in, it in context there are a lot of factor that go into the figures you cited for one this is an unusual year where both teams in nothing ne new york and think ae not performing well. That affects the attendance and affects television ratings, the red sox generally are a national draw on both television and when they visit other parks, they are down. But yes the yankees red sox rivalry you can disagree with me is not what it used to be, really it was a Great National story. Last year, you know, it is not what it was maybe eight or ten years ago. Would you make any changes to produce more offensive game . Well, i think richard made a great point about the television game, i mean there is one team that has 90 drop ins in every game, i mean, it is unwatchable, i completely agree about hitters shouldnt be able to step out of the box, stay in the box, pitchers should pitch within 14 seconds i think under a lot of things, i believe that this commissioner would do every one if he could. Let me turn to the question of drugs and steroids, there was an epidemic, your famous report in december of 2007, there was a landmark moment for baseball. Do you think Major League Baseball has, i want to say confidence but largely beaten the drug problem or still too many loopholes. Well, first you have to establish context. Every society has laws against crime. Right. Nobody expects crime to come to a complete end. It is an ongoing social problem that has to be managed, including aggressive deterrence and punishment when it occurs. That is the same way with drugs. Stimulants have been used in sports, not just baseball, forever and will continue to be, particularly as the sums of money being paid to these premiere athletes, to reach astronomical levels so the calculus that a person makes in whether or, whether to use or not use is skewed heavily toward use because of the tremendous financial reward. But i think baseball deserves great credit and commissioner selig specifically to be the only sport to have conducted an independent investigation and report and implemented the recommended changes. Do you think it is significantly less today . Use of steroids is way down. The problem is, al, right at this moment, literally right now, in latin america, eastern europe, the United States and asia there are people trying to create new chemical compounds that will enhance performance without detection so it is a cat and mouse game, a new drug comes on it takes a while for the scientists to catch up is and be able to detect it in a test, baseball deserves credit for having the toughest program in professional sports certainly in this country and i think they have to keep at it but i dont think you will ever reach a point where anyone can say request certainty there are no more drugs. Peter gammons in your neighborhood certainly the red sox the other day took some shots at nelson cruz who of course was suspended last year and now is leading the majors in home runs should we take that seriously . Well, i thought it was a little bit unnecessary, i mean nelson cruz served a long suspension, he will, he went out on the open market and he signed for 8 million which is not even close to what he normally would have gotten. Not only was, not only were the requirements to sign him, a draft choice, but also i think there was a carry over. The team said how do we justify giving 20 million a year for three years to a guy that just was suspended . He paid a punishment. What i found was fascinating is, the orioles threw some barbs in david ortiz and talking about him, i thought it was really interesting in backtoback days cruz and ortiz detailed how many times they get drug tested per month i found it fascinating but it says something about the program, the senator said i think they try, it is just hard to know if it is true what i have been told about biogenesis that connect produce stuff that is in and out of your body in five or six hours what good really is all of the drug testing . It is somewhat preventative and the punishments are punishme tremendous but at the same time, the chemists are usually ahead of the testers. George, there are several commission of commissioner selig who is stink down next january, will he be able to pick his own successor. He would like to and he would like rob man ford, his must be two guy. We had a story a couple of month or two ago about how jerry wine dorff the own over the red sox does not want this plan to go forward with bud picking a successor, they have hired a recruiter, we dont know whether they are going to find anybody but rob man ford. He may not po he may not have look put it this way. Bud has always found a way to gain consensus, that is his job to work the phones and to find a way to get agreement on what he wants, whether it is a drug program, whether it is a business thing or anything else. But i was going to say, i think equally fascinating in this whole drug thing, i wanted to know what the senator thought about this was the news that al certainly got therapeutic use exemption to use steroids for 2007 season, one of his best seasons, knowing that the possibility is that if you need testosterone for therapeutic use exemption that he has low testosterone, independent doctor hired by the plan approved of this probably without man ford knowing, do you think that is sort of a weird little loophole that needs to be closed if someone want testosterone you say no . We commented in my report on the use of these exemptions and i think they have declined since then, remember my report was issued in 2007, and this season you are talking about followed that. I do want to say to affirm peters statement about drug testing, perhaps the single most important conclusion of my report was that drug testing while essential is not by itself sufficient, the most important recommendation i made which baseball adopted was they created the department of investigation to look into drug use independent of positive testing, because lance armstrong, marion jones, a whole host of athletes across the board have demonstrated you can be tested, tested, tested and not have your use discovered. You need strong testing, but you need a strong and very aggressive program, but in looking at nontesting evidence of use to complement with regard to thi in this been a fascinating conversation, Peter Gammons thank you, and thank you, richard, sand tir, before you go, one sand anywhere, one of your. What are your remembrances of baker. Howard was the senator majority leader for most of my first four years in the senate, and i came to admire him, respect him, look up to him, we became very Close Friends after we both left the senate he and i and bob dole and bob daschle created the bipartisan center, which seeks bipartisan solution to problems. Howard was a great person, a great senator who understood that the National Interest comes first. He was a great leader. Thank you very much for being with with us, senator mitchell and thank you all for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org funding for charlie rose has been provided by the cocacola company, supporting this Program Since 2002. American express. And charles schwab. Additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this, made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Dr. Joel fuhrman is a boardcertified physician whose groundbreaking work has been acclaimed as a medical breakthrough for weight loss, disease reversal and prevention. The american diet today has 62 of calories from processed foods. How many of you would like a promise that you dont have to have a heart attack when you get older . Hes a New York Times bestselling author and a widely published nutritional researcher. And i see people putting this into practice every day, transforming their lives. Never forget that your health is your greatest wealth