tavis: please welcome warren littlefield to the program. for nearly one decade in the 1990's, he was a top man at the company, nbc entertainment, programming including "seinfeld," "friends," and "e.r." "mad about new," and many other shows. and he has a book, called "top of the rock." warren littlefield, great to have you on the program. >> it is wonderful to be here. thanks, tavis. tavis: let me start with the obvious. what happened? what happened, what did not happen on your watch, but as an outsider looking in, we sometimes get a better perspective, so what is your perspective on what happened at nbc? i saw the ratings the other day, and they were fifth, behind fox, abc, cbs, and univision, and then nbc. >> univision. tavis: and then nbc. so what happened? >> nothing lasts forever. when peyton manning said goodbye to indianapolis, he reminded us that nothing lasts forever, and it was an amazing era for us. we have america, tune in to watkings thursday night. -- would tune in to watch thursday night. 75 million americans at the height of our run would be there experience. they wanted to connect. they wanted to laugh. they wanted to be touched by these programs, and they could not wait to get to the office the next day and be a part of the conversation. the world changes. competition. we were in the 1990's in about a 50-channel universe for the average household. today, 150. so more competition, and an environment that is just sliced and diced and fractured, and some of the things that we learned, respect the audience, maybe some of those things were forgotten. tavis: i take your point. there are more channels. so many things beyond television to distract us that we did not have back in the day. but that does not excuse the need and demand for quality television. becausethose networks that produce quality television still get the eyeballs. the audience may be more fragmented. what does that have to do with giving us more high-quality programming? >> the audience does reward you. you are absolutely right. you will not get me arguing that point with you, tavis, because the more we put out there when we respected the audience and gave them great, great entertainment, the more they rewarded us. and so, for america, thursday night, one network, one night, for one decade, we were the destination, and that is what i chose to write about, and we were rewarded. by patients. -- patience. tavis: like? >> "cheeers," the lowest rated show on all of network television, "cheers," so we had to ask, do we continue? do we keep our jobs if we continue with the show? and tinker said, "do you have anything better?" and the answer was, "of course not. we do not have anything better. so it state. and nobody was watching. and then a man named bill cosby cames on and electrifies thursday night. his opening number the very first night, 35 million people tune in, and as bill turns on the electricity on thursday, which also get to say to the audience, "hey, by the way. stick around. we have this thing called "cheers,"" and "cheers" becomes a tent pole. and "seinfeld," they knew jerry, and we put him on, and we were scared at first by the test results, and it gets killed opposite of "home improvement." absolutely killed, but jerry and larry david had these crazy, wonderful voices in their head, and we said we had to stick with it. again, "cheers" then goes away, and who takes over for "cheers?" "seinfeld," so patience rewarded. it is not just instant success. you have to plant seeds and stand up for the things you believe in. tavis: i want to go back. number one, when you say patience rewarded, i take your point, but that does not seem to be ordered today. there are some shows that are acclaimed, "30 rock" that comes to mind, some that do not have the critical audience, but typically, the rule is, if you do not hit it, you quit it. >> that is right. i think the sword of damocles is hanging over the heads of many. there was one hour called "my generation." critics liked it. i was on for two weeks. that was a tough one. i did not think it should be thursday at 8:00, but that is where they put it. i did not make that call, and we were in a buzz saw, and there was a sense, oh, my god, this is not working, and they moved on very quickly, so having patients, sticking with things, it is not be easy call to make. the of the thing that helps is that nbc right now on thursday nights, if they had "modern family," they were magically able to steal it, "30 rocke" would be doing better with that in front of it. they do not have that product to put them in the big numbers game the way they used to be. tavis: "cosby," 30 million viewers, and the top-rated comedy now has about 18 million viewers. was it that superior? >> he wanted to do a one-hour show. they said, "bill, you go on stage and not with a cigar and a glass of water, and you talk for two hours about your family, your life as a parent, that is what we want you to do, and thank goodness they said it, and it was that good a show, and it spoke to such a large audience, so a big hit today is "modern family." 18 million viewers watching, that is a darn good number in this competitive landscape. we had 75 million. we scared the competition away. tavis: a third thing i want to go back to before we move forward, i know this because after all of these years, it still sticks in my craw, and i have had my issues with mr. kospi, but he is a great comedian. he is a comedic genius, one of the greatest story tellers ever. >> yes. tavis: and yet, he got turned down by everybody, including nbc. he had to make the rounds to everyone to get them to buy this show, not if you are telling me that the idea he was pitching was the one that was turned down, the way i heard this is that the "cosby show" was pitched to all of the networks, and everybody turned it down, and it is not like you all got that the first time. >> of, no, we got it. i will tell you the real story. i was sitting on the couch, and i got the pitch. bill was not in the room. tom and marcie came in and said, "here is what we want to do. we want to do a family comedy showing bill cosby, and the premise is this, there is a war going on in american living rooms. it is between parents and kids. this is the story about a man who refuses to lose that war." we went, "that works for us. let's work this out. " we were in the negotiation. we said yes. we are in negotiation, and they went, "hmm, maybe we can do better elsewhere." they went over to abc, and abc did not better. where we were negotiating, in a panic, i got a telephone call from business affairs saying, "yes, we are going to let this go." and i said, "you have got to put more on the table." and we did. we sealed a deal for a pilot. and the writers, , and marcy and bill, and really, that was the only other place it was exposed. abc. they blinked. we closed the deal, and the rest was history for abc. tavis: i want to ask one more question that i think i can better illustrate. so the "cosby show" is universal. he owns the landscape. he owns the entire network landscape for all of the years basically he is on the air, and yet, that show starring that black family did not spin off much of anything in regards to people of color. i remember the naacp coming after the networks for not having enough diversity. when you look back on this, you look back on it and juxtaposed all of these white faces on television in the most multiracial, multi ethnic america, even in that era, we cannot get people of color on television, strangely, there were more black people on television and then there are now. >> that is a good point. "a different world" was are spin-off from that show, and it did not have the blazing success that "kospi" tab, but it was on for seven seasons, -- the same success that "cosby" had, but it was on for seven seasons. i would hold up a mirror to what we did with dramatic television more so than our comedy. "homicide, " "e.r.," very diverse casts, and they were decades-long. getting more color in our comedy lineup, i wish i could tell me that when i said we really need that everybody followed, just because you're in a suit, and you think you are a boss and that everybody always listens, but i accept the criticism. i think it is there, but i also think on our dramatic television side, we have a good track record. tavis: not at you. i am looking at the whole issue overall. >> you are looking at the landscape, and i think your point is very, very valid, and there is no reason why there has to be a french network that eliminates an urban or multi ethnic experience. we were the young adult urban network. that is where we lived, and i wish we had a better track record. tavis: that was then, this is now, and the country is even more multi ethnic. we have got a black man in the oval office, and in some ways, it is easier to be president of the united states as a black man than it is to get a tv pilot made in this town. what do you make of that, even after all of these years of your success? >> it is crazy. it absolutely on no level makes sense. and i think television history eliminates for us that there are universal experiences, and there is no reason why there cannot be a lot more divorce, the on network television that has something for all audiences. there is a universal appeal to "modern family," so, yes, that is great that there is a little diversity in that show. there is not a lot, and there is room for a lot more. it is crazy. i continue to put those ideas together, go out into the marketplace, and present those two networks. and it is foolish from a business perspective. you are in broadcasting. you still want, your goal is a minimum of 10 million people to watch. guess what? what do those eyeballs look like? tavis: as you know, with broadcasting, it is often more narrow casting. so many great shows covered in this book. "law and order." what do you make of the enduring, caught -- nature of this? that formula that has allowed this show and others like it on the airways? >> crime and punishment. pretty classic, right? we remember that book. and that is what dick wolfe was pushing. they made the pilot for cbs. they hated it. he was going to lose the rights, lose the actors, lose everything, and we sat in the screening room and looked at the pilot and said, "better than anything we have." it felt real, and it was a fascinating notion, and today, it is kind of bizarre. why would that be so innovative, crime and punishment? and no one has ever approached from the cop investigations through the legal process, no one had ever done that with an hour format and had an episodic conclusion and satisfaction. a beginning, a middle, and and and, and we said yes, and it went on. it was a slow starter. interestingly, more audiences watched, the more they went, "oh, i get it. i get what this is. it is not just detectives. it is not just cops. here is how it works." and dick came in, and we were a number of years into the show, and he says, "i am going to pitch a new show. it is called "sex crimes." and i am, "ok, you have my attention." and he laid out what -- what would eventually be "law and order svu." i think that brand is so strong now that really the only way we can do it as broadcasters is developing through the "law and order" brand, and there is a procedural spinoff, and i apologize, tavis, for all of that stuff out there, but it has become a staple of a lot of television. tavis: we will not blame you for that. a lot of people love these shows, and you can think "law and order" for starting that. matthew wiener from "mad men" was here, and they came back after the hiatus, and there was the famous dispute with the networked about wanting to cut a little bit of time out of the show to make room for more money, more money, more money, so we had his take on this, and thank you for the fans, matthew won that fight, but what do you make now about the way producers are being squeezed, again, matthew most famous for pushing back, but this effort to get more money, more commercials out of these shows >> in the network world, that is how they made their money, and network audiences are not what they used to be. there is tremendous, tremendous pressure to get at least 10 million people watching a show and hold on to that. also, to own the show throughout all platforms, all over the world. that is how they make their money. back in my day in the 1990's, this product was worth so much drama the world that everyone was making a lot of money, and there was a lot to that. so there is pressure on the network to succeed, and yet, the producer also has a creative vision, and they must fight for it, and i think the things. what i try to eliminate in the book, good things come out of battles, wheel battles between creators and suits, and the public today has more and more choices because of it. tavis: not to cast aspersions on you, but i'm always been fascinated by the guys in the suits contend to look the same, how they think they have the finger on the pulse. obviously, you made some good choices over the years, but i raise that to ask what it is you are looking for when you were in the day being pitched something, what gave you a sense that it would work, could not work? what was the thing you were always looking for in these? >> first of all, in the life of the network president, sometimes you think you are just a firefighter. you have an enormous hose, and you are just trying to put fires out. someone wants to quit. somebody once more money. some broadcast standards as you cannot do that on television. "law and order." you are always dealing with fires, and, in fact, you can put in a 16-hour day, where all you are doing is being reactive, and at the end of that day, you are not doing your job. you must be in a world of ideas and find new material. i would take literally three seconds, close my eyes, and imagine that a scalpel when right down the center of my body, and as i sat and listened to an idea unfold in front of me, tavis, i just thought of being completely exposed, and what did i feel? as a storyteller said, "let me tell you about the relationship between this mother and daughter, this father and son." "let me tell you about this head of a household" and how my body reacted, was i leaning forward, was my pulse pounding. was i laughing? i tried to have all of my receptors' just being in that moment, and how did i feel? i always felt bad that, ultimately, if everyone did 1000 things correctly, that is hopefully what the product, the finished product was going to feel like, and you try to stay with that that impression. and for me, more often than not, it worked. tavis: it is fascinating the way you chose to lay the book out. i will let you explain why you chose to do that. >> well, first of all, i went out, and i interviewed over 50 people. jack welch, the head of ge, jerry seinfeld, an entire cast, and the more i sat down with people, i said i am going to be right "jerry seinfeld" and put it in my words. i am going to write the creators of "friends" and "seinfeld"? i do not think so. i wanted their voices to be loud and clear, and every interview, i went into bit, and i said i was the boss. i knew everything, and every single interview, i was surprised, because i did not know that. i did not know how things unfolded. they kept it from me. >> that is why you are president. that is what they are supposed to do, keep things from you. before i let you go, this is not covered in the text, i will be honest, not covered in the book, but since we just got re-upped again, what do you make about those big decisions about leno and letterman are still going strong? >> it has been a win for everybody. i had to face johnny carson saying "thank you and good night" for 30 years. that was a tough one. i managed a lot of change, and i think i learned to embrace change, but that was big, and i made a bet on jay leno. ultimately, what we wanted to win-win is how do we keep jay leno, how to keep letterman? the competition basically said, "come on over. they can only pick one." david letterman's representation made the deal enormously difficult. my job was to make sure that we had choices. i voted for jay, and probably now a few billion dollars later that was a pretty good call, but dave has made a great living, and so has cbs, and "comedy central" with jon stewart and stephen colbert. they make a good living. it is an age of choice, and in an age of choice, there are a lot of people out there now will do well. tavis: this is a man who made a lot of important decisions that helped to define many of our lives as we watched television. his name is warren littlefield, and his book is "top of the rock: inside must-see tv." that is our show. keep the faith. >> for more information on hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with -- actor ryan o'neal, and his new memoir on his time with farrah faucett. that is next time. we will see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs. >> be more. pbs.