Transcripts For WHUT Charlie Rose 20090912

rrz welcome to the broadcast. tonight we remember september 11th, 2001. first by the certificate pony that took place today. then excerpt from previous conversations on this program. and then conversations about the future with new york police commissioner ray kelly. and architecture critic paul goldberg. >> we realize that after september 11th that we had to do more to protect the city from a terrorist attack. we had an attack twice, successfully. and we knew that we had to augment the supplement of what the federal government was doing to protect our city. because new york was then and still is in the judgement of the intelligence community the number one target in america. >> i think we should have rethought all of the land. and i think we also should have had housing. because that's what people really have wanted in lower manhattan, not offices. it's what there's a need for. but there was a fear right then that people would not want to live at ground zero. that it would be too raw, too painful. in fact, now with eight years having passed, we really think of it, it's not just any few blocks, of course, it's still very special. but i don't think people would hesitate to live there had an apartment building been put up at the corner of it. >> rose: also this evening, as we move to the finals of the u.s. open here in new york we talk to donald dell about tennis and about representing athletes. >> you learn by listening, not by talking. that's the real secret. and i think the art of negotiation is really a study in human nature. if i want to do a very serious negotiation i never want to do it on the phone or certainly not by e-mail. you want to do it face-to-face so you can get the feel of the other person. and as i say in that book, the two things that really matter most in life, charlie, and you are a personification of it, are the relationships built on trust. that's what it's all about lz. >> rose: absolutely. i remembrance of 9/11, a program note our conversation with nicholas countries tov and sheryl udin will be seen next week. tonight remembering 9/11 and looking at the tennis finals this weekend. >> funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today marks the 8th anniversary of the september 11th, 2001, attacks on america in new york. the pentagon in virginia and pennsylvania. across the country americans pause to mark the day when nearly 3,000 people were killed. president obama, mayor bloomberg and former secretary of state colin powell spoke to the meaning of this day. ♪ oh say can you see ♪ by the dawn's early light ♪ ♪. >> 8 septembers have come and gone. nearly 3,000 days have passed. almost one for each of those taken from us. but no turning of the seasons can diminish the pain and the loss of that day. no passage of time. and no dark skies can ever dull the meaning of this moment. so on this solemn day, at this sacred hour, once more we pause. once more we pray. as a nation. and as a people. >> and just as our hearts return to those that we lost, we also remember all those who spontaneously rushed forward to help, however and whomever they could. their compassion and selfless acts are etched in our city's history. >> but what terrorists can never do, what they can never do to us is to change who we are and what we are as a nation that is fearless. a nation that touches every nation because every nation touches us. >> let us renew our resolve against those who perpetrated this barbaric act and who plot against us still. in defense of our nation, we will never waiver in pursuit of al qaeda and extremist allies, we will never falter. ♪ and the home of the brave ♪ ♪ of the brave ♪ ♪. >> rose: over the years at this table we have spoken to many about september 11th. we have talked to rescue workers, political leaders and new yorkers who were eye witnesss to the attacks. all of them have spoken eloquently about the spirit of our city, our country and the meaning of that day. tonight we show you moments from those conversations. >> what do you know about your son's death? >> he called me that morning at home. he called every day. he called me five, six, seven times a day and he only lived a mile away. >> rose: five or six times a day. >> a day. he called me every time. >> he called me all the time. i can't tell you how i miss those calls. >> rose: yeah. >> he called that morning and he said turn on the tv. >> we turned it on. we saw the tower was hit. it was the north tower, the first tower. i said john, what is it. he said a plane hit it. i said okay. with that you could hear the tones in the background going off, meaning there is an alarm coming in. he said that's us, dad, we're going to the trade center. i said okay, john, be careful. that was the last time i spoke to my son. he went there with his company, squad 288, hazmat is also in quarters with them. that house had a total of 19 guys respond. 19 men didn't come back that night. they were all killed. >> it was tough. i really thought my life was over. and then when everything stopped, i, you know, said jeff, are you okay. he's like yeah. and he asked me the same question. anything hit you. >> no. i opened up my little light and looked around. couldn't see anything. we could -- he was as close as bobby is here. app we couldn't see each other. it was complete darkness, dust all over. but i could see that there was a wall to the left, two walls had collapsed to the left of us and were leaning against an i beam. the landing that was above, the landing of the second floor, jeffrey had opened a door going to the loafer levels. and the landing actually landed on top of the door that he had opened, kept it from falling on top of us. and there is what we call a stand pipe that leaned toward the center of the building. so when the landing came down it got twisted. so we had a teepee more or less, the wall was leaning. this landing was here and we had enough space for the two of us to stand next to each other. to the right of jeffrey f we didn't move over to the left, close to the wall, the floor had collapsed and all the debris and everything went down and to the right side of the stairwell. and we threw stuff down, couldn't here it. it was bottomless. and if we didn't move to the left, jeffrey would have ended up falling down the hole and probably taking me with him, you know, trying to hold on. >> it was seven stories that hole. >> we don't know how -- >> it went down to the bottom of the elevator shaft. >> okay. >> incredible. >> and when you think about this, -- >> it's a miracle that we're here. i believe god and a couple of people that i know that have passed on were watching over us. i mean when you saw where we were, what we were in, and we couldn't get out, it took them about four and a half hours to actually reach us and dig us out, or breach a couple of walls and we were lucky enough that they were able to get to us a lot easier than we thought. because when they found us they had not the tools they would have needed if we weren't lucky enough to be next to a elevator shaftway that was constructed of double 5/8 sheet rock and metal studs. so they were able to breach the wall above with a tool and send down a rope and we were able to, you know, climb up and break the bottom part where we were. >> it has made me much more religious. much deeper faith. much deeper understanding of the fact that god has a plan for us and that when we can't figure it out but we have to believe, it's made me much more convinced that the single most important thing you have to do is develop strong beliefs that are real, that are honest, that mean something to you. because those are the things you are going to cling to. those are the things that are going to get you through a crisis. and it has made me much more convinced that the whole concept of american rights and american government and what we try to do for people is the future of the world. and we have to figure out how to convey it to people. >> our role, our mission and our obligation and our duty. >> that's right. because i see what happened at the world trade center in washington over the skies of pennsylvania. as a conflict between the prehistoric world and the modern world. the world where it was and the world where it's going. the anger and the hatred for a society in which women have equal rights with men, in which there is religious freedom. in which there is prosperity. and which is the only way to bring people out of poverty. you need prosperity to bring people out of poverty. and these are the things that somehow have to work for them. we probably have to find a way to accomplish that. but i have become much more convince that that is how we are going to get through this. >> well, it changed a lot, i think. i think it changed a sense of invulnerable that our country had. i mean it's pretty amazing to think that more people died on the morning of september 11th in new york city than died at lexington and concord, the first military engagement in the war of 1812. the first military engagement of the mexica mexican-american war. the first military engagement of the civil war, fort sump ter, the battleship mayne, the sink of the lose takenia, pearl harbor and the first military engagement in the korea war and the vietnam war combined. and i think, you know, people have a sense now that our country is foregood -- for good or for ill part of the world no longer separated by two vast oceans. i think that's on the negative side. i think on the positive side i think this reawakened in america a sense of patriotism and a recognition of how precious the life is that we have here and our rights and our freedoms. and how it entails an obligation that sometimes requires sacrifice in order to pro thekt them. and i know a lot of friends of mine, sort of '60s hippies who now when the star-spangled banner is played the eyes mist up a little bit and the heart is firmly held to the chest and there is a recognition that there is something special about being an american that is worth fighting for. >> country matters. >> yeah, country matters. patriotism has been reawakened in this cli. and i don't think it will be a passing moment. and i think a sense of responsibility arose in this country as well. and i think ironically enough it caused a lot of people say to themselves, is life all about chasing material po -- possessions and getting some more options and having my investment portfolio rise and so i think a lot of people have been, you know, sort of searching for, you know, how can they be of service. how can they lead a richer life in a spiritual sense, and a sense of service to others than just simply in the pursuit of material gain for self. >> i think we went through this stages, according to the -- we went through shock, first. then a kind of awe that this had happened. and then a kind of stunned anger, saying we must do something. and then a sense of vulnerability. the last emotion is the one that will last. that will endure. the sense that we are now finally in this continent vulnerable. if we bomb the vietnamese they couldn't bomb seattle back. if we bomb saddam hussein he couldn't bomb staten island. we felt invulnerableable for a long time. now we are vulnerable. and i think that is a very useful thing because particularly to people who have lived in this amazing golden parenthesis between the end of the world war and september 11th. that was -- that will be looked at later as this period no draft, no -- >> it is really the '90s. >> it is extraordinary. >> yeah. and i think for them it will be a masesingly useful and make them more human to understand that this costs involve. that you sometimes have to pay prices, a certain price. but we also know, i know as a journalist if i look at a prize fighter, i know nothing at all about his quality until he gets knocked down. if he gets up, i know he is a fighter. if he -- and this city was so extraordinary, charlie. everybody who was here. we got knocked down on tuesday. we grouped around for the mouthpiece on wednesday. we were on one knee on thursday and on friday we got up. and the city you could sense it all over the city on fly. everybody was back. the deagain rats were back. guys were handing out club paradise table dancing things in front of pen station. but this is real. this is not we all went to the same movie. there are still bodies down there. there are still people clawing at that concrete and steel trying to not only find and identify the bodies but even -- that is what i think. we are all par of the process. giving it meaning. not just to list the facts. >> right. >> we need the facts. we must have the facts. but it not what the facts are but what you think as a consequence of those facts. >> it was this thing that was just full of separations between people in terms of how the experience that i was fascinated, i mean the number of times in one's life where one knows this is why i live in this city. starting when you first move here and you come over the bridge. but this in a much, not in that kind of romantic way but in some, you know, the pride in how brave people were. and how strong people were. and how surprised i was that my friends in other cities were not, you know, were behaving, you know, the amount of they're going to strike the hollywood studios next. well no, they're not. no. they're not. the people i know who bought gas masks did not live here. >> new york has always been an extraordinary placement but in the past ten years, in sometime about 1990 something absolutely or '93, say, something genuinely unprecedented happened in new york. i have the chance to see it not living here, in fact, being abroad most of those years. and would you come back to new york and it felt as though, as i wrote at the time, as though there was a bubble over the city. almost as if awe or superman's hometown. there was this big transparent bubble that would settle over the city with a gleaming highlight and no city had ever seen so powerful, so gleaming, so prosperous, so unreally rich as new york did in those years. and one always knew, you always knew it couldn't last that that bubble was going to break. it simply wasn't possible for it to persist. but i think all of us thought the bubble will break because the dotcoms will crash, because the real estate market will crash, the stock market will crash. and no one could even begin to imagine that the bubble wouldn't burst as bubbles do, but the bubble would be pierced. the bubble would be destroyed in that way. and i think there was an instant recognition on tuesday and afterwards that that had happened. that some fundamental rift, some fundamental change had taken place that we were at that moment we knew that that had passed, that a whole period, not just an administration, not just a political period but a whole period period in consciousness had changed. it doesn't happen often in life. >> joining me now, new york city police commissioner ray kele. the new york police department has thwarted several terror plots and also cut crime rates to historic lows. he is the only person in city history to serve two separate terms as police commissioner and i am very pleased on this day to welcome him back to this program. welcome and thank you for coming. >> good to be with you. >> tell me what this day means and will mean sort of in terms of the new york police department. >> obviously it was a significant loss as far as personnel were concerned. 23 police officers. members of the new york city police department lost their life, 37 port authority police officers and of course 343 firefighters. what it also signals is a significant change, a turning point for the department in how we do business. we realized that after september 11th that we had to do more to protect the city were a terrorist attack. we had an attack twice, successfully. and we knew that we had to augment or supplement what the federal government was doing to protect our city. because new york was then and still is in the judgement of the intelligence community the number one target in america. it's the communication capital, financial capital. i deed, it is the world capital in a lot of people's minds. so what we did was put in place a counterterrorism bureau. we reformed our intelligence division. we brought in world-class folks to help us do this from washington, from academia. we honed and developed our own internal language skills. because we have a very diverse department that has become. more diverse since 2001. we put all of these skills and these initiatives together to help us better protect the city. >> when there is an incident in mumbai or an incident in london you've got people on the ground there. >> that's right. >> within 24 hours. >> we want to learn quickly any lesson that can help us better protect new york. we can't wait for a report six months later. we don't know if it is a precursor to an attack in new york or one that is going to be coming in a couple of weeks on the same model. so we want to gather information as quickly as possible. and we've deployed personnel in 11 foreign cities to do a variety of things but primarily to ask the new york question, what's going on here that can affect new york and perhaps harm us. >> rose: that's one reason why we have not had successful attacks in terms of accomplishing the motives of those that set them in motion wanted to accomplish. what else? >> first i think it is important to put it in context. because we've had eight plots against the city since september 11th of 2001. and for a variety of reasons, good work on the part of the federal government. we had our own intelligence division here, stop an attempt to bomb the herald square subway station, the british, of course, operation overt which saw three convictions in the uk. but there were at least eight parts that we know of against the city. but the federal government has done a good job, i think, really every level of government. >> not only upping the game but the essential quality of communicating with each other has racheted way up. >> absolutely. information sharing across the board. and you know, the level of cooperation is excellent. there is no other way to phrase it. >> do most of these attacks come from the same ideology and the same source or that diverse group of people for their own reasons looking at what has happened before wanting to achieve the same thing? >> it is the same ideology because it radical islam, that's the reality of it. >> rose: in every case that you have thwarted a plot it had a radical islam connection. >> both eight plots that i mentioned to you, yes, that is the nature, that is the genesis of the plot against the city. >> rose: is the reason are you able to thwart them now because you have a, information. is that the primary difference. >> yes. >> rose: because you -- >> yes, it is information. information as you said, information sharing but now there is much more listening for that information. >> rose: and you know what you listening for. >> yes. you know what you are looking for. prior to 2001, we simply didn't. certainly not at a local level. we weren't doing any of this at a local level. we were attacked here in 1993. the world trade center bombing. i was the police commissioner then when it happened and it was seen as a, sort of an aberration. sort of six crazy guys got together and did this. it wasn't seen to be linked to any sort of international move, obviously that was wrong. >> it actually went back to at least the -- assassination in 1990. but it was just sort of brushed aside. that all changed with september 11th. from that time on you realize that we were up against at least an international -- >> you have an opinion on whether the people who want to do harm to the united states in that manner are growing or are they shrinking? >> i think it's difficult to say. we watch individuals who become radicalized in different ways. even on the internet or they will have a sanction or somebody in a particular location that seems to motivate them. it's difficult to get a number on them. we don't know. we don't know. we -- our operational premise, you might say, is that it certainly could grow. so we are watching in a lot of different corners. >> let me go back to those you thwarted. you thwarted them because you somehow are able to get information whether they messed up and sent a signal that you were able to pick up. or b because you created informants inside that disclosed it. >> is there a common denominator or is each one separate. >> you have to look at each one sort of separately. but clearly informants were significant in some of these cases. you saw the most recent one was the riverdale bombings. that was clearly a case of an informant coming forward working with the fbi. operation overt, we see some of that information coming out from the british. that was a well conducted, billion run investigation on the part of the british. the case that we had here in new york with the two individuals that wanted to pull off the herald square subway station, we actually had an undercover police officer involved, receive some information and then based on what that officer received were able to introduce a confidential nv ant. so it is like no one model. but clearly information is the key. getting information early. and being able to act on it. >> rose: because it had such a devastating effect on our city and in washington, and in pennsylvania and across the country, is this the response to this and how you have been able to change the police department and because of what 9/11 means in the heart and psyche of americans that the proudest accomplishment for you? >> oh, i don't think we can declare it as an accomplishment, you know. we take every day as a --. >> rose: a risk. >> as a risk. and we are not going to declare victory. we have to be concerned about tomorrow. we built -- >> you do know you thwarted attacks. that is an accomplishment. >> yes. but it is certainly a team effort. and you know, it is the intelligence community it is the law enforcement community. internationally working, working together. >> and people like that don't stop trying. and it is not like baseball, nine innings and it over. >> that's right. >> it means they may try nine or ten or 11. >> precisely. >> what do you worry about the most. a question that i know you have heard a thousand times. >> a nuclear radioological event, a dirty bomb, or an actual nuclear debt nation, of course. you know, it's something that we have to think about. now we've put certain things in place that will help us protect this city. and thanks to the department of homeland security, we have an initiative going forward called securing cities where we have the rings of state of the art radiation detectors an the city. we're positioning them. we have mobile detectors. we're working with 22 agencies in the area, connecticut and new jersey and upstate new york to help us monitor this program. but that is the, obviously the biggest concern. of course we're concerned about, you know, vehicle-borne improvised explosives. >> do you have all the resources you need. >> we always like more. more resources. >> more meaning what. it's not access to technology. it's not access. it's just the number of? >> the number of, more personnel, as well. we've down from where we were in 2001. we're down because of the budget crisis. the environment we find ourselves in in the city. we would like to see the federal government if possible help us out in that regard. because we are protecting america's assets in this city. this is very much a national city where we have wall to walleye connick targets here that we would like to see the federal government help more. >> rose: what kind of marks do you give homeland security? >> good, good. aferted and they are getting better. we have worked with the new secretary. >> janet napolitano. >> she visited ground zero this morning. so we work closely with them. we obviously look to them for resources. we like to get money from homeland security. and you know, we are communicating. we're talking, as i say, the securing the city's initiative is funded by homeland security. >> what's the application of smart power or soft power in terms of the battle against terrorism coming to our shores again? >> we do so many things in that area. i myself visit mosques on a regular basis. and answer questions. >> rose: you say we or your friends. >> we answer questions this they have some concerns. >> rose: about discrimination. >> they are concerned about discrimination. they are concerned about monitoring. i try to allay some of their concerns. we just had a cricket league for young mostly muslim young men. cricket is unheard of in this country but we had a cricket league. it was a major success and it got reef reviews in both pakistan and india. we had a soccer league for --. >> rose: we meaning you created it. >> yes, we created it here. the police department did. and we got, you know, as i say, a lot of kudos for it, for doing it. we have made our department much more diverse. we have muslim officers association. we just had a a few weeks ago a preramadan conference where 500 people came to our auditorium and we spoke about what we are going to do, provide additional security, during ramadan. we are actively recruiting in the muslim community. so i meet with muslim leaders all the time. we don't always agree. no question about it. we put out a report on radicalization that was controversy, no question about it. it was the first attempt by an agency, new york city police department, to try to get our arms around the process of radicalization. and we taujed about -- we looked at 11 cases specifically. and we made some statements there that not everybody agreed with. but we met. we talked about it. we made some adjustments in the report. so there is an awful lot of dialogue, an awful lot of communication going on. and our language skills which we talked about, we have over 700 speakers of what we call languages, obviously arabic, hindi, venghali. we have those speakers in our ranks, these are police officers. so we are able to communicate in the diverse communities of this city. and i believe it builds an increasing level of trust. >> rose: and information. >> and information. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you, thanks for having me. >> rose: commissioner ray kelly. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: we continue now with paul gold berer, the architecture critic for the new york manager over the years he has chronicled the process of rebuilding ground zero. in his 2005 book up from xer owe he wrote the following there is anyone no instruction manual to tell us what to do when the tallest buildings are suddenly gone and there a void in its heart. i'm pleased to have him back at this table and take note of a new book he has written called, appropriately, why architecture matters. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: what when i read some of the things that people have said and because it is hallowed ground, people are yearning for a memorial. >> yes. >> rose: why is there not a memorial. >> well there is one coming. it's just taking a very, very long time. everything about this process has gone either wrong or astray in some way or been delayed. it's been something of a nightmare, actually. nobody dreamed it would take as long as it has. >> rose: what are we talking about and why did it happen? >> well, i think we made a series of wrong decisions in the very beginning. governor pataki had the illusion, i think, on the morning of september 12th that the quickest way to rebuild would be to leave all the players in place. larry silverstein, the private developer who leased the twin towers, the port authority. >> rose: before it went down. >> he only leased them from the port authority earlier in '01, that's right. and the port authority, the state government, all the players. in fact, it was the wrong thing to do. we would have done better probably if we simply started from scratch because they were all squabbling among themselves. they did not have a good relationship. you had multiple player -- layers of government. the state of new york. the state of new jersey which is involved in the port authority. the city of new york. all their various departments and divisions and so forth. and then the other part of that mistake was that they left the program of the original world trade center in place. in other words, the idea was not to do something different with that land. the idea was till to have 10 million square feet of offices and a lot of stores and all that stuff just to redistribute it so you wouldn't have 210 story towers. and then to tuck in some kind of memorial. but the memorial was never the driving force, you might say. i think it should have been. i think it really should have been. i think we should have rethought all of the land and i think we also should have had housing. because that's what people really have wanted in lower manhattan. not offices. it's what there is a need for. but there was a fear right then that people would not want to live at ground zero that it would be too raw, too painful. in fact, now with eight years having passed, we really think of it, it's not just any few blocks, of course, it's still very special. but i don't think people would hesitate to live there had an apartment building been put up at the corner of it. >> rose: larry silverstein still has the lease. >> yeah. >> rose: when will that commercial part of it take place? >> well, the first part of it, the building. the tall building that governor pataki. >> rose: freedom tower. >> wanted to call freedom tower, thankfully that name i i found always a little you thinkcious is gone. they are just calling it one world trade center now. that building is not very good, sadly, because it was designed as much by the security consultants and the police as by the architects. that's going up. nobody really wants to be in it. it's been an awkward problem. and it's supposed to be followed by a series of other towers that are probably going to be better. designed by a different architect, very good architect normage foster, and richard rogers, three of the greatest architects in the world, in fact, have been involved in those. but those are all on indefinite hold now because of the state of the economy and larry silverstein and the port authority are fighting over who is going to pay for them and who is going to put up the money and all that stuff. >> rose: and they downsized the transportation center. >> the transportation center by santiago which was probably the only thing at ground zero that everybody was enthusiastic about, the design for it, that's been downsized because it turned out to cost over $2 billion which is not so great. and then frank gary was doing a performing arts center. that is nowhere now because there is no money for that. there is another office building by colin paterson fox that is on hold because the site is the old deutsche bank building and it's taken forever to take that down as well. so nothing is kind of gone smoothly and right. >> rose: why would this -- why would this, this, the commercial buildings have such an impact on the memorial? why couldn't the memorial have gotten a consensus? >> well, the memorial did have a pretty good consensus. they waited awhile before they got started on the memorial. and then in '03, there was a competition held. it was actually in a way the cleanest, most honorable part of a whole awful necessaryed up ground zero planning process. >> which got only state conflicts between state, port authority but the architects. >> absolutely it was a political nightmare. but the memorial competition, they really did honorably and well, it was a truly open competition. 5200 entrys from all over the world. some, by great architects, many by unknowns and it was a truly impartial jury that picked a relatively unknown winner, a young architect named michael arod who did a very beautiful design which called for the footprint of the two twin towers, those two acre sized squares to be turned into voids. and in effect, sort of sunkin plazas. and the memorial to be underneath them. but the void of that square would remind us of the absence of the towers it was a very simple and powerful idea. unfortunately, it also didn't really jive very well with the master plan by daniel, so that the, by being honorable and saying we're going to just simply pick the best memorial no matter what, they also undercut their own master plan so that has made everything complicated trying to get these things to somehow align a little bit better. it turned out of course to be very expensive. the other thing that has made it very difficult is that there is a huge, huge amount of work that had to be done underneath this site. and that had to be in effect pretty much finished before anything could move forward. memorial, office building, anything. >> and there was some question about remains that may still be there and that kind of thing. >> that as well. >> understandably sensitive. >> yes, of course, of course. >> so give me the timetable now. >> well, i think they are now hoping that the memorial and the museum connected to it and the museum by the way is what, there was once going to be a more elaborate visual arts complex there as well. that has now kind of morphed into just the 9/11 museum designed by a very good swedish -- rather norwegian and american firm. it's a kind of interesting geometric glass structure that will be there. that they were hoping to have ready for the tenth anniversary of the terrorist attacks which would be september 2011. >> two years. >> two more years. >> right, two years from today. >> whose's the most important political figure in pushing this forward? >> well, right now it's sort of hard to know if there even is one. >> new york governor has weakened. >> the governor has weakened. i would say during the pas tacki administration the governor of new york was absolutely the most powerful person. many of the problems we can lay at his feet i'm sorry to say. but nonetheless he was the one with the most cards. now power is even more diffused making it even more give, really. the port authority has a fair am of power. larry silverstein still holds a lot of the cards in his hand. the governors of both new york and new jersey. but as you said there is not a huge amount -- >> the -- the figure who is probably the strongest just in a general way is mayor bloomberg. but structurally the mayor actually does not have very much authority over this. even though that is the office that is held by the guy who actually sort of has it together best of anybody, you might say. >> do we know what his desires are. >> yes, we do, actually. in fact, the mayor has been, i think, consistently right on this subject from the beginning. the mayor really did not want to see the site rebuilt with just office buildings and memorial. he had hoped that there would be housing. in fact when i did a piece in "the new yorker" a couple years ago saying why don't we just start all over again and change the program, the only time the mayor has ever actually picked up the pho and called me and said to me, that was great, why didn't you write that two years ago. >> rose: yeah, right, why didn't you write that two years ago. >> i should have, you are absolutely right. i thought i said it but i guess i didn't say it strong enough. >> rose: thank you for come on this day. >> thank you wrz the book soon to be in book stores why architecture matters. he is a man who loves and is passionate about architecture. and passionate about this city. >> back in a moment. we'll talk about tennis. stay with us. >> donald dell is here. he is a tennis entrepreneur, a pioneer in the business of sports management, a lawyer, and a former tennis player for five decades he has represented some of sports's most recognizable figures including arthur josh, jimmy conners and michael jordan, at the beginning of open air tennis he was instrumental in et krooing the modern professional game. he writes about that and other experiences in never make the first offer, september when you should. i'm pleased to have donald dell, a friend of long-standing at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. great to be here. >> rose: before i go to this let's talk a bit of ten i -- tennis which has been your life in part along with a lot of other causes. the u.s. open, we are taping this on friday. and tomorrow is men's semi-finals, we hope. what does it look like? >> well, if they don't play the nadal match tonight that was unfinished last night, they can't finish the tournament until monday. because they are only in the quarterfinals of the mens in that one particular match. >> rose: one quarterfinal to determine the last semi-final. >> exactly. >> rose: so what is the weather report. what is happening, does it look like it is going to go. >> they're not sure. >> rose: by the time we broadcast we will know. >> it a great argument now for a roof over that stadium which we have been talking about for about five years. >> rose: wimbledon has a roof. >> they had this year, first time. >> rose: how do you see it, let's assume for the shake that it is nadal. so you've got nadal in one, federer in the other. >> right. >> rose: tell me how you see these games and the matchups. >> well, dellpotral is an awfully good player playing nadal. >> rose: he lost the first set. >> yeah. >> rose: no, he is already in the semi. >> in the quarters nadal has won the first set and it got rained out. >> and then on the other side you got federer. he's playing josephitch. you have to favor federer. but i tell you the rain and the weather situation, i think disfavours federer. and you might say why. well, because he's got a pattern. and he's well respected, thought of to be the best player. but suddenly everything gets screwed up in the scheduling. you might not start at 11:00. you might start at 6:30. >> rose: meaning he is taken off his rhythm. >> yeah, exactly. i'm not saying that will cause him to lose. >> rose: why doesn't it affect others the same way. >> just because he is the best player on form. if everything is normal, federer is the best player. but the minute you start changing the whole line-up, the weather, today it very windy, tremendous wind out there. it stops raining and it is cloudy and cold but windy t just changes a little bit the elements. and i think that hurts the strong favorite, myself. >> rose: what do you think of his opponent. >> well. >> rose: in the semis. >> in the semis he is an awfully good player. i think dellpotro will meet nadal because i think nadal has been hurt. he pulled a muscle or something the other night, stretched it. delpotra played really well. i think he is awfully strong. >> rose: could you argue the delay could be helping nadal because of the stomach problem. >> sure, a little more time will help him, no question about that, that will help nadal. >> rose: but he is not yet up to the level of play that he was at wimbledon when he won wimbledon. >> the difference is he hadn't played since may when he got hurt in the french. pulled a muscle afterwards. and it is match toughness. like everything, this is mano ammano. if you are not matched tough, whereas the other three guys are playing all summer. federer did take a long rest after wimbledon, three or four weeks. then he comes band and wins cincinnati so you know he is confident. and i think roger has proven he is the most consistent player, since he is the greatest player ever. think about this, 17 out of 18 semi-finals or finals in 17 out of 18 grand slams. i mean nobody has done that in the history of the sport. >> rose: if he is not the greatest player in the world, here is a guy who is. this guy. >> rodney george labor. >> the reason, charlie, he is so good is su have to really understand the background of tennis. in 196 he won the grand slam. and then he turned pro with jack cramer, played on the cramer tour. couldn't play any grand slams. >> rose: tell me about nick boliterri. >> i love nick. nick has a real, he has a spirit about that academy. there is an enthusiasm in the air that he personally has created year in, year out. when you go there, are you kind of fired up even when are you sitting there watching these young players play. i get excited because there is an atmosphere of competition, of improvement, of seriousness that he's created over the years. and you got to give it to him. >> he is 80 something. >> i think he is celebrating his 80th birthday soon. >> he looks about 60. >> and his enthusiasm for those -- and they beat him. everybody had to go to florida. >> oh, way. >> for a period there. agassi has got a new memoir, you have heard about this. >> well, i know, i have been to his school out there in las vegas. what he has done with that cause for helping children in the city of las vegas is, i mean you literally almost turn to tears when you see these kids all walking in, they all have uniforms. you walk up and ask them something. they say yes, sir, no, sir. and then they recite. >> rose: any link between that and the fact that andre in his eyes i think and in many people's eyes, he never had a childhood because he was turn mood a tennis machine early on. >> he was a player at 15, down at the academy playing. i think he just did so well. >> rose: wasn't happy because he kept coming back home. >> de so well, so long. i think he really wanted to help others around him. he had -- he has still today great desire to help others in tennis. >> rose: speak of your friend and people you have known, watch this take. >> how did arthur ashe win? >> very simply. two nights before, after the semi-final, a group of us sat down at the playboy club in london, to figure out what my best chances would be of beating jimmy conner two days later. >> rose: who were the people there at the table. >> marty reeseon, charlie, donald dell, maybe a couple of others. >> rose: a couple of friends and advisors. >> yes. and what we came up with was a game plan that we were sure would give conners difficulty on grass. but then the next question is you could do it. >> rose: here is the plan, you can execute it. >> right, can you execute it. and it was called as you recall, a rad call change of strategy if being on a grass court. >> rose: i game you had not played before. >> i had never tried it on a grass court. >> rose: what was the strategy? >> well, to take the speed off the ball, give him a lot of junk as we call it. because he, conners is a very good counterpunch. the harder you hit it, the better he likes it. >> rose: right. >> keep the ball down the middle so that he can't open the court with wide angle. and get my first serve in. and pull him to the net, lob over his two-handed backhand. and it worked. >> rose: there is a man you love. >> charlie, we lost a lot when we lost arthur. he was special. i remember that conversation that night at the playboy club. because the next morning i used to always from time to time, i would travel with arthur. i wasn't married a lot of the time when he first started in 68. and i wrote him a note. and i never dreamed. i put on a little envelope and i wrote four points about how to play coners that we had discussed the night before at the playboy club. and low and behold arthur goes out on the match and the second changeover, he is sitting there, you know, i thought he was meditating. and he is reading this stupid little envelope with four little points on it. >> rose: one of them was hit softly to his forehand. the other was lob over the backhand side. hit your first serve into the backhand. i mean basic things, you know. but he never had played quite that way. and he beat him, it was 16-1 odds against when he played him because he hadn't beaten him. >> rose: i saw that game, i was in europe and saw that. i thought this is wonderful. because you did not believe he could do it. and he just was beyond anybody you knew in sports. was such a great man. >> he did an awful lot for this country and would have done an awful lot more if he had lived. i think he would have run for the united states senate or the congress, certainly in new york. >> rose: did he go to west point. >> he was a second lieutenant. he went to ucla with charlie. they were roommates. he graduated from ucla. went in the army and was effectively assigned to west point. went to west point for two years. >> here is another picture, donald dell and arthur ashe, i don't know where this is. >> this at his home in florida. this book is called never make the first offer, except when you should. wisdom from a master deal maker. tell us some wisdom. >> well, it has just been a fun experience writing it. and talking about the different things you try to learn. first of all, the reason the title, never make the first offer, you are seeking information. you are trying to learn by not saying what you want. you want to listen to what the other guy, as i say in there. >> because they say something in which they are thinking about giving you a lot more than you are even going to ask for, the negotiation is over. >> maybe they are not. but at least you learn. you learn by listening, not by talking. that is the real secret. and i think the art of negotiation is really a study in human nature. if i want to do a very serious negotiation, i never want to do it on the phone. or certainly not by e-mail. you want to do it face-to-face so you can get the feel of the other person. and as i say in that book, the two things that really matter most in life, charlie, in your personification of it, are relationships built on trust. that's what it is all about. >> rose: absolutely. we said that earlier today that is exactly what it's about. >> and remember, the sportscenter industry like politics is a very, very small industry. are you going to go back and negotiation with a lot of those same people, time and time again. so the precedent on how you set yourself and whether you keep your word and whether you make the deal and honor it, all that gets around. word of mouth is everything in the sports world rses tell me about your assessment of sports agency today. and this a whole show but give me the short version. >> well, i think sadly there are some great ones and some very bad ones. i mean it's 50/50. they are like good doctors and good lawyers. and there are bad ones. and unfortunately, many of the horror stories you read, 50% of them are probably true. one of the things that's really to me been discouraging, and it hasn't happened yet in golf and tennis because they are individual sports. but in the team sports of football and basketball, quite honestly, everybody along the way is trying to get paid. i mean the entourages, the au coaches, the high school coach, i mean the street guys. i mean they are in it for money. they are not in it because they are trying to help johnny. >> right. and so the agents are at the end of that food chain. and we get blamed for a lot of things that actually we may not be sflofd at all. but it's very hard today in both football and basketball. you really have to be very careful with your honor and your integrity. because you are going to lose it very easily if you play the game by their rules is what i'm trying to say. >> rose: but what are their rules? >> their rules are you say to an aau coach says yeah, i will send him to university xx and when he turns pro i expect to be paid something. >> rose: what is it about dean smith and his ability and roy williams now but dean especially to maintain this sort of extraordinary relationship between the program and the player. >> dean smith spends a certain amount of his time when he was the head coach every day talking to former players, whether it's in l.a. or whether it is jordan. or all -- i mean he had a whole 20 players playing. tommy lagarde way back, you know. and i think roy williams, i know has continued the thing. the whole trend is stay close to your players after they graduate. >> finally the u.s. open and the women's final. what do you see there? >> well, i think frutfully, serena is the best player like roger. and i think what the william sisters have done for tennis is quite phenomenal. one of them has won seven out of the last eight grand slam titles. seven out of eight, two sisters growing up together. i don't think in american tennis they really have gotern their due. i mean they are a phenomenon and a force that is unheard of. >> rose: so tell me what it is about the training they had that made them as good as they are. >> first of all richard, their father was totally the boss when they were little. i went down when they wer see tm practice. he would have them out on the court, each one w a hitting partner. and he would walk around and tell them different things that he wanted them to do. like i want you to hit 20 minutes of forehands. or i want you to practice your serve. and de something --. >> rose: this is not a guy who knew a lot about tennis. >> no, he learned it. read it out of books and watched film. he educated himself. >> rose: the book is called never make the first offer except when you should, wisdom from a massive deal maker. donald dell, founder of proserv. thank you. >> charlie, thank you. >> rose: pleasure to have you here. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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