To the Sunflower State to run for senate. Susan del percio is with me, francesca chambers covers the white house and odessa is with us this morning and bill sternberg, usa today editor. Many americans think the country is heading in the wrong i dont understand the direction. Question. These are data from the latest the. Roger stone, are you going to poll from nbc news and the wall pardon him, sir . Am i going to pardon him . Street journal. That sentiment has become more i havent thought of it. Havent thought about it. He was asked the same question in february of this year. Pervasive since donald trump was he had the very same response. Inaugurated and an editorial hadnt thought about it. Some months elapsed. This is up. That is President Trump refusing urg to rule out a pardon for his former operative roger stone. Urges a focus on that. Well see what the president ultimately decides to do, however, it appears he is theyre saying democrats should focus on President Trump as this reading a scripted answer. Cam pan continues. Heres what he said when asked a great line about how the about it in february. Debates over issues have comes as the president s gearing devolved into what you might up for major legal battle with find in an academic department. The nations highest court which agreed to hear trumps appeal of why is it important to set those lower court orders that require aside as we get into 2020 . The accountants to hand over financial records to local the editorial was meant as a prosecutors in new york. Bit of a reality check that this the case expected to be heard in is not going to be a normal march with a decision at the end of june just as the general issuesoriented election, that election season begins more in first and foremost its a the limelight. Ann, i start with you on that referendum on the conduct and point. The president encouraged this character of the incumbent. Case to move quickly. Happy that three cases are going to be heard by the Supreme Court in the coming months. And, therefore, if you think how pivotal could they be to donald trump is a threat to the this presidency and to executive power here Going Forward . Nation, an unfit president , priority one, two and three out well, david, sort of something that is going to sound to be victory. So it great to have a plan for slightly counterintuitive, the everything, but if you dont win, those plans become rather white house and the lawyers acting on trumps bee half academic. And we were struck during the outside the white house, weirdly most recent debate in los sort of hope that this is a big angeles where they spent a good deal. Chunk of time talking about even though these are cases about the president allegedly whether its appropriate to have a fundraiser in a wine cellar. Trying to hide potential financial wrongdoing or at the very least conceal how much money he has or doesnt have. That ignored that the Trump Campaign and committee have because, you know, this is going already raised more than 3 to be a test of a couple things. For one thing, its a distraction million, unlike when the trump from impeachment which came much campaign was like a shoestring, later than the cases that this time its well financed, well staffed and very good developed into the Supreme Court technology operation. Test. The other thing that is going to so in 2008 barack obama decided be a test is whether trump to reject public financing. He took a lot of heat for that remade the Supreme Court in the but he did it for one reason, he way that certainly he and his wanted to win. Ill quote one more line from advisors hope he has been able the piece. Your colleagues write, thats not to say the issues dont to do. You know, he has appointed more matter. Federal judges than any what is there room to talk about . As these candidates focus on president in recent memory and donald trump, what do you think maybe much longer than that. And your colleagues think is hes already had a chance to put fair game that democrats should two very conservative justices be hashing out here in the on the Supreme Court. Coming months . He thinks he has more control one thing that strikes me from 2016 is that for all the over the Supreme Court than he polarization in the nation, the actually does. Exit polls in 2016 showed that but he clearly believes that this is a court that is in 39 of voters selfidentified as taking these cases at all, you moderate, 35 as conservative know, friendly to his view. They could have turned the cases and 26 as liberal. Away and the lower court so it seems pretty clear that decisions would have stood. You cannot win the presidency your sense of the importance just with progressive votes. Of all of this and, again this is played out over a very long so i think theres basically two period of time. The were approaching the next main issues beside trumps election. Lets go back to that point, fitness for office and those what the president s setting would be health care and the might be. State of the economy. Its hugely important. It makes absolutely no and on health care its hard to difference. I mean, thats the situation were in. You know, take this in stages. See how mandatory medicare for all would be a winner in the first, its the typical norms are collapsing. States the democrats need to so then work for president obama win. It doesnt matter if they win i worked for secretary clinton california by five votes or 5 and president obama through that way. These folks put out their lives million votes. In terms of their financial and medical records going back give again, the election will come down to states like forever. Hillarys tax records were pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. And in those states, first of released back to 1992 because all, medicare for all would take her husband was president. People have done that because away some hardearned health they believe when theyre running for president that the voters have a right to see care plans from union members. Everything. And then, secondly, you have then you have trump just doing what he wants. Older voters who like medicare, which is on the tax front, just saying no. On the medical front, giving theyre in the medicare club and if you talk about adding another this hysterically comical 150 Million People to that club, transparent forged document from theyre going to worry about the the doctor saying this guy is quality of their medicare. The smartest, healthiest person ever in the history of man. I want to bring you in, susan then you have the press accepting it. Del percio. Ho how funny. As you look at the republican he has this doctors note. Party, which did not squabble 45 days ago, he went to the hospital. We dont know what he d on the over wine cellars, we now see taxes, same thing. Whenever we get the taxes, it might show something in there. I mean, i do think there is its ialienated a part of it. Magical thinking mock the far left and the t is it important to have these conversations about what it is people are thinking its going at a point in time . To show Money Laundering with it is important but whats Deutsche Bank with, this and interesting is theyre rg it at a time when the poll you showed that. Im not sure what a tax return at the top was 60 of the people would show. But it wont make a difference think the country is heading in because nothing makes a the wrong direction with one of difference. What he is doing though is that he is successfully stalling. The best economies this country has had in over 20 years. So lets not forget, this record low unemployment, stock started with the house of market is a good indicator. Representatives asking for his asking this treasury theres even an uptick in wages. Department for his tax returns. That is one of the clearer laws so the fact that 60 say theres a problem, thats an opening for and statutes of the house can avail itself of. Democrats. That they must turn it over. And the question is do they want and they did not turn it over. To have which way do they and here we are months and think they can win best . Months later finally getting to it. It missed all its not like can you dream big and good for it all or you can go after the were going to open up another investigation looking at taxes for all intents and purposes. Swing states that youre going it missed the window of the to need to win the electoral hardest point of scrutiny. College. Win california by five votes or and, look, hes either going to 5 million, it doesnt matter. Youve got to go after those luck out because like ann said, the court is not as much in his swing states. Favor or more likely is going to i think when you look at the health care issue, you can luck out because kavanaugh and really go after donald trump on roberts is going to understand it. In fact, hes in court trying to that they are very pro executive take away your preexisting power and privilege. Conditions and keeping your and might just say its no ones children on your health care. Business. If not on this point of the taxes, on some others. So hes actually fighting against your interest. The delaying has helped donald thats a great argument and thats where the argument should trump. The courts have only helped donald trump. Even if he loses, he is buying stay. You want to fix it, thats fine, but first lets figure out how months and months and months. To beat donald trump because thats the most important this the congress has had to go to the courts to get mulvaney. Evening. Chuck brewster in iowa, they never got mulvaney. Theres the debate stage weve they had to go to the courts to seen as we talked about a moment ago. How about on the campaign trail, get ma nuch others. The other disparate issues versus that, the key issue here of getting donald trump out of let me ask you about the office . Reporter getting President Trump out of office is the top casualty of all this and the priority, especially when you agitation or excitement about listen to voters and what what is in the documents. Theyre listening for. I go back to the landmark piece thats also a cause of a divide in which they got some small part of the tax returns along you hear on the trail. Eight benefit for Vice President with thousands of pages. Biden where you have democratic something that should have made voters believing that biden a huge splash. It didnt make the seismic appeals to more moderate voters, that he can pull over some of change to our conversation about this president that perhaps they those republicans that were lost should have. Or more moderate voters lost in yeah. No, i mean, it basically 2016 but then you have revealed that trumps own progressive candidates making the opposite argument saying it creation story is bogus. He inherited a bunch of money. Was about voter turnout, democrats didnt show up to the he didnt manage that money very well. And been very lucky. Polls in 2016 as they did in look, i tend to think that the previous years. Thats the argument that sanders extent to which he sought to and warren, for example, make. Conceal these does send a signal that there is stuff in there its a divide you see on the that can be damaging to him. Debate stage but continues to exist even among voters here on to me, you know, what is the most important point of all this though is that trump is a the cam pan trapaign trail. President because he doesnt accept norms, he says everybody francesca, im going to put else is releasing records, i up the poll. Wont do. What does that polling tell you that everybody else is shamed by public pressure, im never shamed. If trump can count on the Supreme Court to back him up on about this . Whats being debated versus what happens on the campaign trail . This, its a test case for all kinds of things. Maybe people didnt like the you know, if you consider hes attack on him that Elizabeth Warren made. Reelected. He wants to take apart i think shaq makes an legislation that was passed in interesting point about it depends on why you think donald democratic administrations like trump won the 2016 election or at fordable care act. Democrats lost it, however you if he can test and find out the want to look at that, as to why Supreme Court will essentially get his back in all these things, then you do have a or how they should be president in this country who is campaigning now. Above the law. Is it because Hillary Clinton rules that apply to citizens didnt go to wisconsin, didnt dont apply to him. Spend enough time in michigan or the tax returns are a test of that. Pennsylvania that they need to i think its really important. Have a better message for people all right. Well see what happens here in in those states . June. Ann of the Washington Post, is it because she didnt generate the same sort of thank you for joining n happy new year. Enthusiasm as donald trump, who President Trump taking credit was holding multiple rallies a for stock market records and for the health of the u. S. Economy. Day . Is it because she didnt take he and his advisors know it is him on enough when she was on the key to his reElection Campaign. But first, we have seen the president take on World Leaders the cam ppaign trail and spent o much time talking about ideas . Before. Most recently, Justin Trudeau at a summit in the uk and also on if were going to use that as an twitter. Example pore for 2020 and what i guess justin t doesnt like me making him pay up on nato or candidates should be doing, all of this is really relevant. Trade he wrote. What has the president upset . In this piece, it comes up if news that canadian broadcasting you focus entirely on donald channel aired a version of home alone 2 without the five second camo at the plaza. 2 without the trump, you open the risk that camo at the plaza. Youre only on the attack, you excuse me, where is the lobby . Down the hall and to the are dont have in ideas. Left. Thanks. You have to have something. The edit in question is one we learned that the cut happened you cant just cam pan as years before he took office. Somebody who is antidonald he is angry but hes not. Heres donald trump just days trump, you have to be for before this story began. Something. I think thats fueling the more well, im in home alone 2. Progressive candidates like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. And it was a very big hit, but at the same time, voters will get tiresome of the litmus obviously. Its a Big Christmas hit. Tests within the party, about one of the biggest. Whether its okay to have so its an honor to be involved in Something Like that. Onor to b in Something Like that fundraisers, whether a wine hi im joan lunden. Cellar and 3,800 bottle of wine. It whats going to happen with my health care and higher education. It shouldnt become trite to discuss those nittygritty policy maerlts but at the same ti maerlgtters, but at the sam time, klobuchar is fueled by this desire to defeat donald trump and that being the top priority for democrats. Let me ask you lastly about the form in which in is happening. We are still in a primary. There are a lot of candidates vying for the nomination. Theyre trying to set themselves apart from each other. Presumably, the focus youre prescribing will be the one that the democratic nominee is going to adopt. In other words, how worried should we be at this point in the cam ppaign there isnt that whole focus you writedas might pivot to the center toward the general election. You dont want becomes difficult or impossible to reach out to the moderates. Theres probably 10 or 15 of republicans who are antitrump, who are gettable as long as you dont go too far out. I also think on the economy, susan mentioned some poll numbers, but on the economy 70 say the economy is in good shape and at the debate basically the democrats answer to how do they run against the trump economy is that everything is terrible. So they need a better answer in terse of the people who are doing a little better under trump, whose 401 k s are performing. There are answers you can say he inherited an obama economy, that it would be better without his trade war or that hes juicing the economy with trillion dollar deficits. But you cant just say the economy is not working for anyo anyone. Bill, thank you very much for the time. Appreciate it. Still ahead, speculation on todays Senior Living communities have never been better, aocs plan for the future. With amazing amenities like movie theaters, exercise rooms but first a law maker giving and swimming pools, public cafes, bars and bistros democrats hope as impeachment even pet care services. Who was from the house to the senate. As impeachment who was from the house to the and theres never been an easier way to get great advice. Senate what do we want for dinner . A place for mom is a free service that pairs you with a local advisor to help you sort through your options and find a perfect place. A place for mom. You know your family we know Senior Living. Together well make the right choice. Burger. I want a sugar cookie. Wait. I want a bucket of chicken. I want. Its the easiest because its the cheesiest. Kraft. For the win win. You have a brother in [the second battalion . Yes sir. Theyre walking into a trap. Your orders are to deliver a message calling off tomorrows attack. If you fail we will lose sixteen hundred men. Your brother among them. We need to keep moving. Come on theres only one way this war ends. Last man standing. It is common notion that a good economy is a political winner for an incumbent president. And the economy heading into 2020 is on solid footing with a stock market rally in the green. Cnbc reporting the s p 500 is returning more than 50 since donald trump was elected. With approval numbers hovering in the low 40s, this current president doesnt seem to be reaping many many of the political rewards you would expect from such a strong economy. Ben with me in new trump stock market rally is very good but still lags obama and clinton. Put this into context with us. The market side and well get to the economics in just a sec. Sits been a great year for stocks. Were almost up 30 on the s and p 500. Its shaping up to be potentially the best year since 1997. So people feel that, they see that when they open their retirement statements or take a glance at the stock market and President Trump loves that. But when he says this is unprecedented or historic or the best ever, he tweeted on friday, that he is beating other president s, thats simply not true. The returns under both president clinton and president obama three years into their presidency were a bit higher than where President Trump is now. But he has a lot of good talking points on the economy and the stock market right now. The best is yet to come. Ben rhodes, you read that in the tweet from the president of the United States and talking about how americans feel this and we know most americans arent invested in the stock market. A lot have retirement plans, but what does it tell us about the health of the u. S. Economy broadly . Well, i think a coupling things. First i have to point out this recovery started long ago in the Obama Administration and the low unemployment he inherited, the rising stock market and he juiced the economy with a trillion dollar tax give away largely to wealthy individuals. It is not a surprise that if you drop a trillion dollars of a tax cut into an already growing economy youre going to get a this is up. Sugar high in the market. The problem is Peoples Health care costs are once again rising because of whats been trying to im david gura. President trumps anger boils up do to undermine the Affordable Care act and people see him as over impeachment even as hes on not addressing the costs that vacation. Mitch mcconnell says hes in no are going up. Student debt is going up, health hurry to start the trial. Care costs are going up. The cost of living in this country is going up and not all nancy pelosi says she not going those people struggling with those costs have big portfolios to hand over articles of impeachment until shes and theres a bit of a risk here guaranteed a fair and impartial as hes continually talking up trial. As the one metric of the some potential witnesses, former economy, the stock market that hes not in touch with the people who dont have big portfolios in the stock market Vice President joe biden saying and frankly dont measure their he would not comply should he be daytoday livelihoods on what subpoenaed to comply. The s p is here. Let start with that so the message is to point out conversation. I believe we have tape of the conversation with that board. Number one, for ordinary people, let play a bit of that, this is not the right metric and centering around the prospect of we need to address the cost of health care and the cost of him being subpoenaed. Education in this country x but reporter do you stand by number two, and this is a harder your earlier statements that you wouldnt comply if you were argument to make, drump trump i subpoenaed to testify in an impeachment trial before the senate . Correct. Setting up us fun a fall here and the reason i wouldnt is because he gave away our ability because its all designed to to have any capacity to have a fiscal stimulus with that tax deal with trump doing what hes done his whole life, trying to bill which is a giveaway to corporations and wealthy take the focus off him. Individuals. So what i worry about here even this guy violated the if trump is defeated were headed into some rough economic constitution. He said it in the driveway of waters in the next year or two. The white house. Thats a question that m cos dan, you see him there up at each and every press leaning in, making that point, conference. Pounding on the table. How depleted the toolbox is, how significant is this as we what tools are at the disposal look at what the contours of this trial might be . I think there is no prospect of monetary spolicy makers. That biden would halt his cam how much of that is dependent on the economy doing well . The risk of a recession pawni camcampaigning to come back to heading into 2020 has come down washington and be used as a a lot. Political prop by president in august it was 50 50. Trump and Mitch Mcconnell and now very few people are try to divert attention to create a circus with every predicting a recession any time soon but the youre right, if we camera in the world watching what joe biden said. And so it not a huge surprise hit a rough patch like we saw that he said that. Last summer our tools to be able i think, you know, he is to rush in and try to prevent probably going to be enjoying anything getting worse are certainly diminished. The two main tools we have are iowa in january if the senate to lower interest rates. The fed did that for the first trial continues and you have a time in over a decade this year bunch of his rivals for the and they didnt just do it once. They did it three times which is nomination like Elizabeth Warren a big reason the stock market be taken out of the fight and be has seen a nice boost this year. Forced to stay in washington to its kind of like pushing a kid be jurors. Enjoying iowa in january so on a sled. It gives a nice extra boost down the hill. Much as one can. The other big one is for the government to come in and spend yes, the president is down in more money. Florida but hes been weighing in on twitter. While President Trump and congress have been doing that there is this dissonance that we for the last several years, theyve been spending more and see shaping up here, the president wanting this to happen more money and so there is a lot and wanting witnesses to be of concern. Called and the Senate Majority we already have trillion dollar leader saying hold on a sec, if deficits in this country. How much more money is there to this doesnt happy, as he puts spend, but certainly if we hit a it, thats fine by him. Rough patch in 2020 i think one of his strategies whhas congress will step in and take action. Been to drag joe biden down. Im going to give you the by just mentioning and implicating him repeatedly, it last word. The minute that we have left hoping to drag down his poll heerks help us understand the numbers. If you look at iowa, pete politics of this. You were talking about wage growth a moment ago. Buttigieg is rising there, what are the things the Bernie Sanders in second place, joe biden not in the top two president should be pointing to . He loves the stock market, what do you think he should be whatsoever. Touting and how politically and recently he was at 31 , perilous is there for democrats Bernie Sanders at 21 . Going forward . First of all, as an american hes still riding high this is great news. Nationally. But the first voting state seems i have 401 k , i assume we all do, many of your viewers do. To be having the president s this is good. A lot of people watching, a lot effect. As for a trial, i think the ball is in your court right now of americans whose wages are because the white house is in going up slower than theyd like some ways waiting to see what but at least now its moving. Nancy pelosi does, waiting to so i dont want to root against see what Mitch Mcconnell does the economy. Before it can react. But a year from now, if donald as our rank and file trump has been reelected its democrats, by the way. Going to be first and foremost but to that point, there has because of the economy. Now, whats amazing is the guy been quiet from those in democrat being leadership in the couldnt make it harder for himself. You know, the first the house and Republican Leadership friday after every month you get in the senate money. The unemployment numbers, the were in this abyss right guy should be doing nothing but now. There is no precedent for it, no talking about that but instead guardrails for this process that he starts ranting about nancy were in right now. The constitution of course spells out very little about the pelosis teeth and whatever impeachment process, which else. So well see about the politics allows both pelosi and leader of it, but if donald trump mcconnell to sort of exploit werent donald trump he would that to their advantage, which probably have a cake walk just is what theyre doing here. Because of the economy. We will leave it there. Both side are staying very quiet obviously over this holiday break while the president uses heather lodgng thanks very much. His twitter account to go after in the next hour a president unleashed the downpour of nancy pelosi on this subject bus hes almost making her point for president ial tax knows no her. She believes she has leverage here the president is the only one who wants a trial. Bounds. And impeachment limbo. Thats coming up next on am joy with joy reid. Am Mitch Mcconnell doesnt want a joy with joy reid trial at all. Nancy pelosi has that in terms of leverage and see knows there is one person that really, really wants a trial right now to try to clear his name and get himself acquitted, that person is donald trump. Let me ask you about another person who has become a principal, senator Lisa Murkowski of alaska. She sat down with our affiliate for an interview. Lets listen to remarks about how the majority leaders mind has been made up already. In fairness when i heard that, i was disturbed. To me it means we have to take that step back from being hand in glove with the defense. And so i heard what leader mcconnell had said. I happen to think that that has further confused the process. Susan, you got the New York Times Editorial Board watching that interview and saying she doesnt want to be seen as a rubber stamp for this trial, for whats to happen here. How important is what she has to say . Shes been iconoclastic before. Whats the significance of her coming out in the way that she has . I think its two things. One is that shes sending out a message that the process does matter and we must look like theres going to be a fair trial. Thats something that resonates with the public at large. We all know around the table this is not a typical trial, Justice Roberts is not an actual judge. He more or less presides over it and can be overwritten and a whole other host of things. But the American People think, oh, trial. Theres witnesses, theres evidence, theres documents, there should be a process. Thats the first thing shes doing is opening up that process a little more for republicans. The second thing shes doing is sending a message to mitch mcconnem mcconnell. For procedural reasons only, shes willing to go out there on her own but she typically doesnt temperature theres usually a couple of other with her. I think there may be as many as six or seven with her on this. This is the most damning narrative to Mitch Mcconnell right now. Shes sending out a signal to everybody saying watch out, you may not have us in lock step. On issues of parliamentary procedure, those number are incredibly important when it comes to witnesses who will be called. Exactly. If you lose a few republican senators, then Mitch Mcconnell would have to go to democrats to strike a deal. Somebody like murkowski, like mitt romney, they could sort of prompt a more bipartisan compromise as you had during the clinton impeachment trial when they voted 1000 to set up procedures for the trial. I cant see that happening in todays environment. Dan, im going to ask you to stick around. Up ahead here, could the president have a third term . Hes still making up his mind but the white house is not waiting. Aking up his mind but the white house is not waiting. That does it for me today. Thank you very much for watching, am joy with joy reid fred would do anything for his daughter starts right now. Get in fred even if it means being the back half of a unicorn. Fear not fred the front half washed his shirt with gain detergent. Thats the scent that puts the giddy in giddy up good morning and welcome to am joy. What do you do when youre home ahhh. The irresistible scent of gain. Alone . Most of us at home for the holidays celebrate and get some for a scent with even more giddy up, much needed rest, but if youre try gain scent blast in detergent, fabric softener and scent beads. Donald trump well, hes been at his maralago resort golfing every day and rubbing elbows with his guests but in between all of that the president of the children laugh and scream United States has spent his holidays attacking speaker nanly dog barking pelosi, the democrats and even the late john mccain. Hes taken to twitter on a daily music basis to call democrats hypocrites and liars. Its the final days of the wish list sales event. Hurry in to your lincoln dealer today to get this exceptional offer. And also reigniting his beef with californias democratic governor on christmas. You would think that Mitch Mcconnell going on his Favorite Network and promising him an we dont see who youre against, through or for,rs, whet acquittal would have suited trumps spirit this week. We dont see who youre against, all we see in you, is a spark we see your spark in each nod, each smile, we see you find a hidden gem, and buying diapers at 3am. We see your kindness and humanity. The strength of each community. Weve seen more sparks than we can say. About 20 million just yesterday. The more we look the more we find, the sparks that make america shine. Most people think as a reliable phone company. But to businesses, were a reliable partner. We Keep Companies ready for whats next. man we weave security into their business. second man virtualize their operations. woman and build ai customer experiences. second woman we also keep them ready for the next big opportunity. Like 5g. Almost all of the fortune 500 partner with us. woman when it comes to digital transformation. Verizon keeps business ready. Itreat them all as if, they are hot and energized. Stay away from any downed wire, call 911 and call pg e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. This is up. Im david gura. Secretary of state mike pompeo claims he is not made a final decision. But that has not prevented a barely concealed competition for breaking out within the administration over who might replace him. Brian lowrie joins us now. Brian, youve got Mitch Mcconnell encouraging this, as i understand it. Youve got mike pompeo refurbishing his personal twitter page. How much does impeachment weigh on the secretary of states decision at this point . El with, pat roberts, the senate, who if pompeo run, he will be replacing says its inconceivable that pompeo would lead before a senate trial concludes. I think its definitely weighting on pompeo, but hes not going to leave the president so that he looks like hes abandoning him. This remains very much under consideration. Pompeo has made some outreach to prominent donors. He is very active on social media with a new personal twitter account, which he had gotten rid of when he first joined the Trump Administration. Let me ask you just about how popular he is. He is not a native kansan, he certainly embraced the state, was elected to congress from there. But this is not a sure thing. Two other candidates as well, as i understand it. If he were to jump in, what do the poll indicates would happen . If pompeo were to get into the race, he would likely win the republican primary. People around chris coback have pushed down to that a little bit, who was the partys failed nominee for governor. Thats whats driving this. It pushed by people in washington who are looking at the fact that kobach lost and is nervous. He had be pompeo was with a more than 30point margin. That was in the wichita area where hes very popular. Hes maybe a little less popular in the kansas city suburbs. Would you have to believe that pompeo would enter as a very strong frontrunner if he gets in. Im going to turn to your colleague and a native kansan as well. I go back to josh rogans piece. Look at the names being floated to replace mike pompeo. Youre covering the white house now. The president has sort of given his blessing to a run as well. Whats the latest reporting tell you about where things stand . The filing deadline is not until june. He has six months to make this decision. While he is starting up his personal twitter, what ive been told is part of the reason for that is he would have to leave his other twit are behind when he eventually leaves for some reason, who ewould need to bu need to build up a following for something else, whether its the United States senate or something else. It is the National Republican senatorial committee, however, that has been pushing this. They have encouraged peep ople reach out to mike pompeo and urge him to run for this senate seat but he has not done that so far. They got some hand on internal polling and it showed that chris kobach, should he be the run to run, who the one to run, he would not be the frontrunner. He has now gone from the narrative of a few months ago of he may be ditching and leaving the president high and dry to moving into the territory where he has a luke warm kind of support of the president. Should he leave it would probably firm up and secure him a republican nomination. Hes actually handling this more in tnikki haley type of way. So as a candidate hes handling it extremely well. Hes also giving the president plenty of time to set up, should he leave, who will replace him. He as a confirmed acting deputy secretary so that could be a potential solution. While the others may fight over it, thats fine. But mike pompeo has done a very masterful job of making this transition. Landrieu, lastly to you. Hes done the job of doing this. There are things that he cant control and he is at the center of this inquiry. He hasnt testified. Hes been holding on to documents. I asked brian the degree to which this weighing on the preech impeachment process. What is a better spring board to the presidency . Is it being the secretary of state or is it being the junior senator from kansas . I think most people would answer that question with the former being the secretary of state. Susan mentioned the nikki haley route, which was to leave the administration and then lay the groundwork write a book, lay the groundwork for maybe a future run for president and the jockeying has already ensued to carry the Republican Party postdonald trump. Mike pompeo has a tough decision to make. With people like Mitch Mcconnell push him to run for senate, they realize kobach probably cant win statewide and now theres a democrat in kansas. What does this mean to the state of kansas . Its very significant. Pat roberts has been in Congress Since 1980. Hes the longest serving member in the states history. So him leaving and also at a time when theres a democrat in the Governors Mansion in topeka, there really isnt a standard bearer for the Republican Party in kansas and thats a solidly republican state. So this is one reason why theres this pressure on mike pompeo as someone who would have unparalleled name recognition to get into the race. Great to speak with you. Happy new year. Appreciate you taking the time on this saturday. Thank you for having me. Coming up, the cia director in a politically toxic tug of war. Ic tug of war. Going out for a bite going anytime. Rewarded learn more at the explorer card dot com. Its versus the other guys. Eese cheering clearly, velveeta melts creamier when youyou spend lessfair, and get way more. So you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one. For small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. Shop everything home at wayfair. Com kickstart my heart by motley crue truck honks wheels screeching clapping sound of can hitting bag and bowl clapping always there in crunch time. Ive always loved and im still going for my best, even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. So if theres a better treatment than warfarin, ill go for that. Eliquis. Eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. Plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. Eliquis is fdaapproved and has both. Whats next . Sharing my roots. Dont stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. Eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. Dont take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. While taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer than usual for any bleeding to stop. Seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. Eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. Tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. Eliquis, the number one cardiologistprescribed blood thinner. Ask your doctor if eliquis is whats next for you. They spied on me. They spied on our campaign. Do you still stand by your statement that the campaign was spied upon . It was clearly spied upon. This is up. Im david gura. Bill barr Still Believes the campaign was improperly spied on in 2016 and asked the attorney general, continues to supervise an investigation of the origins of the russia probe. It appears the Justice Department and Intelligence Community may be headed for a showdown. Bill barrs hand picked prosecutor has been overseeing the investigation, hes focusing much of his attention on the cia playing the director, gina haspel at the top of a political war. It could force her from protecting her agency from the president s wrath and bowing to bill barr. Shes sort of faded into the background a bit at least politically. How acute is this tension . Its very acute. She doesnt want to get into the same situation that her colleague, chris wray, the head of the fbi has gotten into where trump has attacked him personally on twitter multiple times. She has a workforce of 20,000 intelligence professionals that dont want a reprise of when President Trump went to the cia headquarters in front of that, you know, wall of stars of people who have fall i dont know fallen in the line of duty and talked about his poll numbers. I this i thenk theres a lot ofn that the john durham probe is looking into stuff he shouldnt be looking into. Theres an Inspector General for the Intelligence Community, michael atkinson, who has remit to look into wrongdoing and he has been sidelined for this probe because john durham works for bill barr and they seem to have a narrative they want to try to chase down. Your reaction to all of this and something that comes out in this piece is gina haspel may not be the subject but she was aware that all of that had happened, an australian diplomat had come to her. Shes one of the people who said that, according to one of her sources. President trump has made it extremely clear he wants someone to pay. He believes he was spied on in the 2016 election and he wants it to come down somehow, some way. And part of that might play out in the United States senate. Lindsey graham will be having hearings and might bring folks like Rudy Giuliani and other people in and that might get this more out of the president s system but he clearly has wanted the Justice Department to investigate these things and he wants someone to pay. Whether its gina haspel or somebody else, heads are going to roll. In natashas piece she quotes other former intelligence officials who are surprised and upset by the fact you have a Justice Department conducting an investigation like this. Bill barr in the interview with Pete Williams touking about his role, introducing him to this is not good for the Intelligence Community. Its tearing down the pillars are our democracy. Bill barr is making himself a tool for donald trump. Hes no different than Rudy Giuliani trying to find imagery conspiracy theories. Watch out from gina haspel, she will put this country ahead of Everything Else including herself. Lets go back to something from a moment ago and that is that the republican and senate are still interested in this. We have the Michael Horowitz Inspector Generals report, we have this continuing here. Whats the appetite for it broadly. There are partisans pushing for this. Is it something that enjoys the support of many senators . I think what senators all defer to is the fact that any president has vast declassification authority. Youll remember last year when the president issued a declassification order that gave the attorney general this Unprecedented Authority to review the, quote unquote, surveillance activities from the 2016 election. That essentially was another signal that donald trump trusts bill barr, knows that bill barr, by appointing john durham, who is accountable to bill barr, not independent like the Inspector General would be, would essentially try to do his bidding or find a result favorable to bill bar and drot. They want to maintain the idea that the president can declassify anything he wants. Whats the timetable for this . We just got this Inspector Generals report. When is the report on when we can see reports on all of this . I think its coming up pretty soon. They havent released a timeline fully on it. I did a story with natasha on how he was focusing on john brennan, who is still really respected in the Intelligence Community. I called up john durham to ask him about it and he just said have a nice day and then hung up hes not in the mood to really talk fully about what hes found yet. All right. When we come back here, congresswoman alexandria ocasiocortez as been showing up at more and more campaign stops. Is she helping in his president ial bid or laying the groundwork for her run . Next. Groundwork for her run next lets be honest, quitting smoking is freaking hard. Like quitting every monday hard. Quitting feels so big. So, try making it smaller. And youll be surprised at how easily starting small. Can lead to something big. Start stopping with nicorette o ozempic® oh oh announcer people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of onceweekly ozempic®. In a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7 and maintained it. Oh under 7 . announcer and you may lose weight. In the same oneyear study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. Oh up to 12 pounds . announcer a twoyear study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. 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Oh oh oh ozempic® announcer if eligible, you may pay as little as 25 per prescription. Ask your Health Care Provider today about onceweekly ozempic®. Hi. Maria ramirez mom maria Maria Ramirez. Mcdonalds is committing 150 Million Dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs. Prof Maria Ramirez mom and dad Maria Ramirez to help more employees achieve their dreams. This is up. Freshman congresswoman alexandria ocasiocortez has been considered a rising star in the Democratic Party since she won her seat in 2018. One of policy she champions has become a major issue on the campaign trail. Shes drawing massive crowd as a surrogate for senator Bernie Sanders. Politico reporting progressive insiders and activists are increasingly whispering about her inheriting the movement one day and running for the white house with it behind her. You get to front the story by your colleague. I read this and i this i of article 2, section 5. Why the whispering . I think democrats are desperate for rising stars they can put in front of the party. If you look at state legislatures around the country, theyve been devastated in terms of a democratic bench. Someone like aoc who has millions of twitter followers and speaks to the party that has definitely moved left in the last few years, thats inspirational to a lot of democrats. They say it never hurts to kind of get people like aoc ready for 2024 or 2028 or any other future important roles in the Democratic Party. So they think that, you know, we should talk about her federal budget if its a little early. Francesca chambers, theres an interesting dualism shaping up between Pete Buttigieg and her as to what the young face of this election will be. And this election may determine that. It depends how well Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren do compare to buttigieg or joe biden. She has surrogate for Bernie Sanders. He cant be everywhere all the time. He campaigns aggressively as well. She is someone who can go out there and she started to compete without him. And headline the rallies. Even if if Bernie Sanders, what would she do next . And she is someone who in congress could be the person whose raising the rallying cry for everything he wants to do. A freshman congressman trying to find her way here. I imagine stay in office as long as she can. She has done some very smart some very good things. Shes played up her popularity. And she has also kept her head down. She notably on the congressional hearings we saw, but right now i think this is all about Bernie Sanders. He is using her extremely well. She is extremely popular. She is someone who can go campaign on her own. She can go do late night tv because she has that level and that prestige so she can garner that. And after this the political season is over, she should go back. If she wants to have a long career and continue to do her job, stay focused on the issues, speak out on things that matter to her, but you dont want to be known as the extreme then you always have plate form but youre never going to take it any further than that. Thank you very much. Susan and Francesca Sanders and tomorrow on up these are my guests. That is starting at 8 00 eastern on sunday right here on msnbc. Up ahead in our next hour, the battle lines sharpen over the impeachment trial as republicans predict an all out acquittal and joe biden draws a line in the sand. The fight over fairness and witnesses next. Ght over fairnes witnesses next what i love most about being a scientist at 3m is that im part of a community of problem solvers. We make ideas grow. From an everyday solution. To one that can take on a bigger challenge. We are solving problems that improve lives. Work so hard give it everything you got to one that can take on a bigger challenge. 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The latest nbc news wall street journal poll shows the country divided over whether to remove him from office. 83 of democrats favor it. President trump said he isnt paying too much attention to the proceedings. The other hand, his poernl lawyer, the man at the center of the ukraine scandal, Rudy Giuliani, is trying to flip the script. Rudy has been in the news after he told him over blady marys at the mark hotel in manhattan that george soros is hardly a jew. Rudy giuliani arguing im more of a jew than soros is just one line in an interview she conducted in early december. New stories about rudy continue to mount. Hes been under fire for claiming falsely on his facebook profile. I should say the page has since been updated. Up with me this morning, the Deputy Assistant secretary of state and now the cohost of the podcast unredacted, might be contributor and aaron is a correspondent for the Washington Post and also an msnbc contributor. Shannon, let me start with you. Lets spend time and talking about Rudy Giuliani and what hes been up to. So far theres been a lot of distraction, a lot of dangling of supposed documents he has of supposed evidence he has. There was this oan documentary that he worked on that aired that didnt yale seem to get much traction outside of conservative circles and even far to the right conservative circles. You know, so far seems like a lot of sound. Not a lot of substance. But at this point, i dont think its relevant and a lot of the issues that he is addressing are alienated really from the issue of impeachment. For example, the Ukrainian Ambassador and he makes this allegation that she had some nefarious plot to keep people out of the u. S. So they could testify. Even if that pans out to be true which again will is no evidence of it, but even lets say that was the case, you had some rogue Ukrainian Ambassador, at this point really, so what. What does that have to do with President Trump asking the president of the ukraine to investigate his political rivals for putting hold on aid to ukraine, dangling a white house aid from the ukrainians . Everything he is working on is pertaining to that. Maybe he comes up with something on the bidens. All very speculative. Its unrelated to the issue at hant right n hand right now. Let me ask you about this profile. I know you read a lot of them over your career. And i never seen journalism like this. What do you makest picture being made by Rudy Giuliani, losing his cell phone repeatedly. Of he has three cell phones. Having bloody marys. It could be in the well of the Senate Standing in defense of this prefz the United States when the trial begins. Well, to take that profile, there is no reason whatsoever for him to do that. You know, he is sitting down with the journalist whos he knows is not sympathetic to him. And beyond the right, what it tells me is that theyre not trying to win the debate. Frankly, trump, we think in terms of the old rules. The facts beat our facts. And their cases and the things hes investigating in ukraine was just discussed. They just need to create noise. They just need to create distraction. They need to create the appearance athat theyre investigati that theyre doing something somebody else isnt doing. Its more attention. I think Rudy Giuliani is a guy that lives to get attention. And the more he gets attention, the more he talks about how hes investigating conspiracy theories and involving the bidens and now attracted to people in rightwing media, thats all hes trying to do. Hes not trying to prove anything. Hes trying to distract from the real facts of the day. Thats what they do. Let me ask about that. The final scream is conveyed on twitter. It was tweeted last night with the president as he retweeted a bunch of noise to bens point. He watches all this unfold and out of his hands. Theyre quickly in the u. S. Senate. You have the Senate Majority leader saying hed be content were that not to happen at this point. Yeah, sure. The president claims that hes not paying close attention to this. By the amount of time he has spent tweeting about it. What hes doing day to day and his Vacation Home in florida is playing golf and having dinner with people and revealed on instagram and so forth. But his attention is clearly focused on this big looming ball that is out of his control. And the degree to which nancy pelosi heightened the tension here and made it that much more difficult for the perfect ez to get a beat on whats going to happen in january. And although the new york interview was conducted with Rudy Giuliani and the decision was made to not send the articles of impeachment over immediately. And in that interview against and he cant really see the shape of. And now we see President Trump doing the same thing on twitter. And presumably a trial in january. And thats not the line of the senate. What do you make of the stance . From what we heard in the last hour, there is no conversation taking place between democratic leadership and Republican Leadership and what happens next here. How surprised were you by the strategy the House Speaker implemented and where does that leave leadership in the senate . Well, welcome to your legislative body. Nothing has gone on for several years n some ways, thank god things have not gone on. Some of the things Mitch Mcconnell and others want to do is not particularly good for the republic. I think listening and i was thinking, you know what the question is why is nancy losy holding it. Pelosi holding it. Theyre doing anything for a good reason. And so forth. I have a feeling the senate will have the articles of impeachment in the house and that we will either be in a trial or on the cusp of a trial. And this period of time about the relationship and the blib because there is not much more to talk. Someone that thinks its so politically advantageous to be impeached, boy is he acting like this is major because its theoretically big. Play clairvoyant if if you would. Joe biden said were he to be subpoenaed, he wouldnt participate in the paroledings. There is still more noise surrounding this as well. Who the witnesses might be. Do you have a sense of what a fair and partial trial would look like . Is there unanimity about that . Yeah. Look, a fair and partial trial is youre able to call whatever witness you want and review every document you want and we hear from people like john bolton and Mick Mulvaney who certainly know and very likely can corroborate what trump did that was wrong which is try again to extort blackmail, whatever word you want to use, pressure a foreign government. Does john boltons garlousness suggests he wants to testify . , no he wants to cash in and get paid for speeches and get money for a book. He wants to monday ties the knowledge that he has. And to gaze into the crystal ball, a fair trial will not happen. Mitch mcconnell is the senate month jort leader. Were waiting for a Supreme Court justice seat, right . So i have no confidence that theyll be a fair trial. Mitch mcconnell getting him through the senate process. So everybody has always known the end to this story. The end of this story is hes impeached by the house and not removed by the senate. And then this thought out in the mid 2020 election. I wish that werent the case. I wish it were a fair trial and judgements were made on the facts. And anybody who looks at these facts can see plainly that donald trump is guilty as charged. And that is what were seeing, the dysfunction in our politics. And capability of the legislative branch and the standard norms of how you deal with this. There is a lot of presence over Arnold Palmer in the back nine. There are people in the washington within the white house who are planning what the president s defense is going to be. There is a conversation on capitol hill about his managers going to be presenting the perfection for the democrats in the senate. What about in the white house . What do we know about from procedural perspective how things are proceeding . The senate is the moment where the president theoretically comes off the sidelines and is able to actually participate in the process. The president s lawyer will have an opportunity to argue on the senate floor. And the Twitter Defense and on fox news. But actual formal defense of the president in front of the senate. Theres been some question about who that lead lawyer is going be to for the president. Our guess is the white house counsel. Im going to say pat sipaloni is not a seasoned trial lawyer. Hes not a big time defense lawyer. He is not a public figure. He is not experienced being on television. When you had clinton, you had his lawyer was greg craig at the time who had done a lot of the big high profile trials. He has spent a lot of his career behind the scenes doing corporate clients, white collar clients. Hes not one of the big high profile lawyers. So i think its going to be really interesting to see what happens there. Certainly he is capable of doing it. But he may not be the best lawyer in the country for that task. But the white house is really out of options athe this point, bringing someone from outside into the white house would be difficult. Theres Financial Disclosures that have to be made that i think rule a lot of people out. They dont want to go into the administration because of the disclosures have you to make. Then the president s personal lawyer who is a high profile trial lawyer. But hes on the outside. Hes the president s personal lawyer and is not representing the presidency. Of i think this is going to be a key thing to watch in the coming weeks. Who is going to make that public case for the president . Jay still having his daily talk show to do as he represents the president. Ann, lastly here, just get a sense about what it meant when Lisa Murkowski came out speaking to an nbc affiliate saying she intends for there to be a fair trial. She doesnt want to be a rubber stamp for Mitch Mcconnells trial in the u. S. Senate. Yeah, i think Lisa Murkowski here is hueing to something weve seen from her before which is a willingness to she has an independent streak. She has a willingness to buck what is really, you know, sort of the monolithic Party Loyalty that we see across most of the senate. That, however, is not the same thing as announcing that shes openly considering voting against Mitch Mcconnell and for impeachment. Shes not saying that at all. In fact, in the same interview in which she says that she doesnt want the senate to be a rubber stamp and she wants to hear the full case presented, she also calls a good bit of that case weak and criticized the way democrats handled it. It is certainly the biggest craft weve seen in that Republican Party. But its a tiny one. Stay with us if you would. The what do we know about the New Hampshire primary . For one thing for first time in over a decade, a clinton wont win it. Is that right . I dont know. Its not coming up, 45 days out and the state remains completely up for grabs. The state remains completely up r grabs. Great riches will find you when Liberty Mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Wow. Thanks, zoltar. How can i ever repay you . Maybe you could free zoltar . Thanks, lady. Taxi only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. This is up. Only 37 days until the iowa caucuses, 45 days until the New Hampshire primary, the 2020 candidates are still looking to make head way in the two early voting states. As 2019 draws to a close, there is a lot of focus on iowa. Senator Bernie Sanders is pressing his case in the Granite State with events today in dover and concord. Sanders is ahead in the polls. It is still slenl i a four way split at the top. Elizabeth warren and joe biden and Pete Buttigieg within the margin of error. Iowa is still up for grabs. Back with us is my colleague. I want to start with you on this point. So much attention being paid to iowa. Comes up first. We see campaigns allocate more resources to iowa in a strategic way. Help us understand the importance of New Hampshire here and the fact that there is such a deadlock in that top rank of five candidates. Right. Iowa is first in the nation caucus. First in the nation anything. A peculiar thing. It is. It is february 3rd. By february 8th, ninth, tenth, were not talking about iowa anymore, thank god. Tsz an opportunity to build momentum. So in the case of we were talking during the break when Hillary Clinton and obama were duking in and out 2007, she lost iowa which was a huge blow and put us on our heels. She came war rroaring back. They beat bernie in iowa but then got clobbered in New Hampshire. So you had a couple of these split decisions which has been foretelling of Going Forward. And it could be the same thing here where you have a split decision. Hes a favorite son in New Hampshire. He beat hillary by 27 points four years ago. And he might be the rest of them by that. Then hes off to the races. While one thing to remember is we always talk about things dont end up looking like they do in december of the year before. Which is true. One scamsome howard dean in 2003. Howard dean, howard dean, howard dean. The liberal hope. People worried about a situation. Most important thing to beat george bush. It is very familiar to now. But what happened from there though, people forget, john kerry not only won iowa but he cleaned up from there. John kerry, there was no turning back once he won iowa. So the interesting thing to me is going to be is there a paper tiger in the who fades . I dont know who that is. If it is joe biden or Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders . Does someone emerge and not have to duke it out . Which is something we havent seen in two cycles. Weve seen, you know, death matches for the last eight years and democratic politics. So much of the focus has been on money and the candidates ability to raise money. How important is that in light of what he is talking about, the need for iowa to be a catalyst. Something catalytic that kicks you to the next race . Well, i mean certainly if youre not near the front of the pack, after iowa and New Hampshire, thats probably near the end unless there is some South Carolina miracle for you. But its interesting. You mention the money issue. And trump land where i spend most of my time, they are, you know, kind of fascinated and to an extent laughing at this argument, the democrats are having about fundraising practices. When the impeachment was announced, theyll raise 5 million in a single day. The Trump Campaign this time around has a very well organized structured campaign. They have volunteers theyre currently training in all the states. They have field directors. They have a Campaign Team on the ground. And not just the key states but even sort of your second tier expand the map aspirational type of states. They are organized. They are running a traditional campaign. Meanwhile, as you see weve got the democrats who dont know who their candidate is who are positioning themselves for a slug match that could go on for months, possibly even to the convention. Now we know from history the best organized campaign, the best well financed campaign, the best well run campaign does not always win. You have President Trump, you know, ran a plane they were putting together as they were flying and theyll win the presidency. That can happen again on the democratic side. Ill just say right now, there is a well oiled machine of a Trump Campaign that is ready for whoever emerges as the democratic nominee. Last thing you to on that well oiledness of the machine, what counts if people are continuing to give money to it. If theyre making so much money, you have people cutting checks and sending money over on days of impeachment. Why do it . What is the allure still of doing it and how important is it . He has a bunch of rich donors who he cut their taxes with his tax bill. And theyre looking at Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders and wealth taxes and theyre going to spend whatever they need to spend to try to keep the democrat out of that office. The other thing that is really important here is the democrats are all spending their money in states that dont really matter to the general election. Its note just the democrats raising less money, theyre not spending money on a general election message. Theyre spending money oen a primary message in states that wont matter in the general election. So all that war chest of trump is he massing. All the digital spending that hes doing, a lot of facebook advertising, all that is driving towards defining the terms of the general election debate. We did this in 2012. So we set the tone of the general election during this period of time when we were better financed and could focus on the general election message. Democrats are going to have to pivot very hard. I would like them to be making a case against trump not just against one another. Because we have to keep our eye on november. All right. Well leave tlit. Come back in just a bit. Thank you very much for taking the time this morning. Happy new year. Great to see you. Kim jongun promised donald trump a christmas gift. It has not arrived yet. Some analysts and experts are on edge. John bolton continues to hit President Trump hard for how he handled this. He handled this janine i used to be a little cranky. Dealing with our finances really haunted me. Thankfully, i got quickbooks, and a live bookkeepers helping customize it for our business. live bookkeeper youre all set up janine great vo get set up right with a live bookkeeper with intuit quickbooks. Do that are degrading . Ideo tapes, film reels, or photos, legacybox professionally converts them to dvds, thumb drive, or the cloud. Legacybox is simple and safe, with over half a million satisfied customers. Visit legacybox. Com today, and get 40 off. Everything your trip needs for everyone you love. Expedia. A lot of us are wondering what did you get mrs. Trump for question this year . Thats a tough question. Well, i really should say a very beautiful card. You know, im working on that. I got her a beautiful card that actually i had a number of them picked. I picked the nightsecest one. That is President Trump speaking to service members. He was thinking about another christmas gift, the one he was promised by kim jongun believed tore a long range missile test. Lets see what happens. Make its a nice present. Maybe he sends me a beautiful vase. Were in west palm beach, florida. Hes an nbc News Korean Affairs analyst. Victor, the u. S. Is back in familiar waters. Analysts, negotiators and military officials in the u. S. And south korea are bracing for renewed military provication. Are you among them . Yes, the gift hasnt arrived here. How worried are you about whats to come . Im worried. I think, david, we have to take north korean threats seriously. St if they say theyre going to do something by the end of the year, we cant simply dismiss it. It didnt come at christmas time. We didnt get the christmas gift. But its entirely possible by december 3169 that they could do something. If they dont launch a missile, we have to watch kims new years speech very carefully because there will be signals there about where he wants the relationship with the United States to go in 2020. Another key date here, victor, february 16th. Why is that so important . Yeah, the dates in february are important as well. There are a couple of dates in the beginning of february, valentines day, february 16th that are designated days for the celebration of the military. Its a celebration of kim jonguns father when he was named general posthumously. So these are all important dates. I think between now and february, we could either see some sort of provication or we could see a provication followed by an attempt a last minute effort at diplomacy. I want to ask you sort wof stands at this point. He is criticizing the Trump Administration stance on north korea. There hasnt been a meeting in many months between the administration and north korea. Where do things stand . Is strategy still even talked about at this point . Look, if the strategy is the president s own sort of whims on this, then there is a strategy. So weve now had 2 1 2 summits if you count that trip into the dmz that he did last june, the last time they met. And the president is always gone back to his personal relationship with kim jng ongu. Kim jongun wanted to have a year end deal. President trump set out deadlines as well as ambassador bolton was blown through. But what i think one place for the president may be a little confined is the idea that if there is a test of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile that that would somehow break the bonds of trust that the president and kim jongun developed over those 2 1 2 summits. So there is a lot we likely dont know about the diplomacy behind the scenes. Remember, theyve been writing each other either you can call them actual diplomatic letters or the president refers to them as more of love letters, almost the back and forth to each other. And if the president continues to have faith in his ability to do this i suspect the strategy will remain the same. And that is hope for a breakthrough at some summit yet to be announced, yet to be determined. And then you get into the tricky process of verification and how you unwind the maximum Pressure Campaign that the president initially put in. David . And there is the hope on one hand that he is laying out. The other hand if there is a Ballistic Missile test, what does that mean . What is the and what . What is the administration do to pivot were that to happen . Well, i think that we would have to at that point see whether President Trump is willing to acknowledge the fact that north korea has already, you know, kind of blown through the moratorium that President Trump likes to take credit for and missile testing. The only thing is that so far those missile tests have been short range. And while they do violate u. N. Security council resolutions, trump has been willing to overlook that. And say, well, kim hasnt broken any promises to me. Once an icbm is launched, that does directly break the promise that trump says kim made to him to give time for their personal diplomacy to bear fruit. And, you know, thats thats the bargain that trump has laid out here. You know, his personal relationship with kim could do something that traditional diplomacy hasnt been able to do. Once kim violates the sort of predicate of that by launching this missile, then i think, you know, well see whether trump is offended enough to Say Something that ends this process or whether hes willing to try to repackage it and say he can still do this given more time and more ability to deal directly with kim. Ben rhodes, the president were a student of history, he may look back at what happened on the Clinton Administration. If if you look at john bolton, he may have leshd what happened with the Clinton Administration as well when talks were underway with other parties involved. How good is that analogy as we see it here . Looking at the trajectory of this the blind faith that president had and there being new ground broken here and where we are today . It seems like you have the leader of north korea who is now taunting the u. S. And no Real Progress has been made. Well, i mean, first of all, diplomacy is hard. You need verification. You cant just take the word of a kim jongun. You need to verify that theyre being met. You have to stand with the process. They undermind the deal. I think stepping back though is important to step back, david, and look at across a few different issues. This is not working. But, you know, he said that his perm relationship made progress. North korea continued to build nuclear weapons. They continue to test. Theyre unraveling in many ways. So this is worse than where it was when you had the summit. He pulled out of the eye lan nuclear agreement. Iran resumed the nuclear program. He tried to say he developed a new form of nuclear weapons, missile delivery that is far more advanced than the United States. Things are getting worse across the board. He is both been reckless president and a totally ineffective president on foreign policy. For us to be sitting here and put any credence into the notion that these love letters of kim jongun are making things better, kim jongun knows that donald trump is so invested in the appearance of this being a success that kim jongun has all the running room in the world he wants to conduct tests. The u. S. Would be raising issues with our allies and partners and at the u. N. Even with the short range test if this was a normal administration. He has given this guy a pass because he wants to look like he did something that worked. The it has not worked. Last question to you on the role of china in all of this. We have seen north Korean Leader take that heavy armored train back and forth from china over the last many months. What role do they play . How big an x factor is china in the conversations over the future of the north korean regime . So china is the most important economic partner to north korea. The u. N. Sanction thats have been on north korea, particularly the ones targeting general trade have hurt the economy. The theyre reliant on china. Kim jongun is kind of caught in a box too because he has threatened that hell do something by the end of the year but frankly, if he launches an icbm at distance, that will not only make the United States angry, it will make the chinese very angry too. They dont want to see crisis unraveling on the korean peninsula. China is an important player in that respect. And with regard to the United States and trump, i mean trump is caught in a box too. He doesnt want a crisis as he does in the Election Campaign in 2020. He doesnt want to fire and furrey crisis with north korea like he had in 2017. So both parties have talked themselves into a corner i think as hans is saying earlier. I think well really see by december 31st will happen with the new years speech. Just a couple days away. Our thanks to my guests. Possible president ial pardons to a major Supreme Court ruling on Donald Trumps financial records, lots of legal loose ends could get tied up in 2020. Talk about those next. Talk about those next