Transcripts For MSNBCW Up With David Gura 20191006

Biden on a candidacy facing challenges on all sides. Senator Bernie Sanders goes back to burlington to recuperate ahead of the next debate. This week the Supreme Court hears three major cases on workplace discrimination. Actress and activist laverne cox will join us for those arguments. A. Scott bolden, former chair of the National Association pact and the d. C. Democratic party. Host and professor on the barnard college, president of the media group as well. Christina greer, professor at Political Science and author. Joining us is a White House Reporter for the atlantic. When president clinton faced impeachment there was a white house war room running at full tilt. With this president , there was no war room. Instead, President Trump is in the white house with a Remote Control in one hand and his cell phone in the other. He is casting aspersions and a growing number of discipline station officials are ensnared. Rick perry urged him to make the call back in july. The president told House Republicans he did not want to make that phone call. A piece in the Washington Post chronicles his conversations with other world leaders. They leave his aids generally horrified. He asked Prime Minister shinzo abe to nominate him for a nobel prize. He lost his temper when talking to mexicos past president. And the phone call, the one that happened on july 25th. Were learning a lot about what led to the call and what they say about it. The president continues to blur the lines between his own interests and his duties as head of state. America first was the slogan that helped trump win the president she, but he doesnt seem to believe its the tactic that will help him keep it. Peter, let me start with you and your piece from a moment ago. The president talks about how we want to move away cooperating with other countries except he is more than willing to work with oren courage other countries to help him with this task, the Political Task at hand. Thats right. Just last month we saw him at the united nations, an ode to sovereignty, not taking guidance from other countries. He has always been skeptical of international alliances. Yet here what do we see him doing . Outsourcing Political Research to ukraine and china and in 2016 to russia. Why is that happening . He doesnt trust his own fbi. We have an fbi. It is located here in the sovereign United States. Why not make use of the fbi . Hes allowed to do that. A. Scott bolden, that is the fu fundamental question here. He says hes talking about those in the top. Still the attacks come fast and furious. It is the conspiracy of this deep state that the president and his allies always talk about. But the more they say it, doesnt make it true. The more he says this was a beautiful phone call doesnt make it true. Somehow he thinks if he says it over and over again the people will be convinced or he will talk himself into making it true. In this case the irony is the diplomats and the Intelligence Community that he disdains, undermined, that he believes putin over them and their work, that he has given them the impeachment ammunition now than writing and verbalizing it to theyre going to use to impeach him. Its beyond politics. The house and senate or rather the house has enough to impeach him right now. As a former prosecutor and White Collar Crime attorney, absolutely now. They will fill it out and they will do depositions or try to. If not, you dump it into an obstruction charge and say we tried. Then you take the vote and put it on the senate side. Then the senate gop will be on trial, trump will be on trial, and American Values will be on trial. And god bless america. Hopefully the senate gop will do the right thing. Theres a point about repetition. We have heard a lot about the bidens and ukraine. We can bludgeon people over and over again with this wrong stick. There is a reputation we have seen over the course of the last week in open air calling for foreign governments to assert pressure on foreign governments to undertake these investigations of his political rivals. What do you make of that . He did this when he took out a full page in the New York Times. He went through every single media outlet and talked to every journalist they could to say theyre guilty. He started a Birther Movement and made it a movement. Even after he was proven wrong. He can never admit he was wrong so he keeps saying, no, no, no, im right. But it has to be some other deep state lie because clearly i dont have the capacity to be incorrect. The problem is, and i agree with scott 100 , the problem that we will run into the Republican Party in the senate is so scared of this president they have sworn an allegiance not to the United States as citizens or as a nation. They will follow the president and his lies. They will backtrack once he tweets something and says something later in the day. So it will fall upon the senators, republican senators to see if they will uphold their duty as representatives of our nation. Let me turn to you, peter nicholas, on that point. We were talking about the republican senators. You have looked at the roll hes playing here. We are all familiar with that statement from the president , give me my roy cohn. How much is he representing the presidency verse the president of the United States. We heard him express his dissatisfaction with gahn. He wants loyalists, his own personal lawyer. They are supposed to represent the larger institution and the presidency. Not the president the man. If he commits crime, the appropriate tactic for the white House Counsel is to stop them, draw attention to them. For the white House Counsel, any white House Counsel serving trump, how do you deal with that unbearable tension . He wants a loyalist. We talk about there being a trump doctrine and that was something that evolved over eight years time for obama. We have figure out what that was. We are in the process of doing that with President Trump. Yes, there is the America First brand that we were talking about a moment ago. We are getting a clear sense of the nuances of the president s foreign policy. Peter nicholas writing how he sees it as a poker game. He is using it in a transactional way. Maria, what does this tell you about his overall outlook on the world . I have a shes holding my hand. The problem is that the notion of a doctrine where there has been some real thoughtout strategy, i dont think there is that, right . If you read that Washington Post article that you were quoting from, everybody in the white house is in a state of oh, my god, what is going on . They are watching as they go to the private personal residence to have these phone calls so he doesnt have the staff around him. It is one whistleblower so far and so many lambs. So many lambs. And for me i just keep thinking about when we have, as christy said, this is not knew if its going to be called a doctrine. Its not knew. Frankly, democratic strategists, its like hello, the playbook is right in front of you. I was going to ask you, because you are a political historian, what is the thing . Because im not a policy person. This is not a surprise that trump does this, that he is going to repeat everything and then we as journalists well, i try not to repeat it all again. You know, because its what have journalists who have operated under authoritarian regimes done in order to avoid this. Right. So we have three branches of government. I will give you a quick intro to politics. Executive, legislative and judicial. And so some people might argue we have four branches, the media being the fourth. When this president came into power i wasnt that concerned. Not just the greatest hits, 10 and 51, factions and separation of powers and checks and balances. If you read all the debates that the founding fathers, the framers i call them, were having its for this very moment. They were so afraid of having this type of executive. So they built in these easter eggs to protect us in checks and balances and separation of powers. Now, the reason i am concerned, we have never been weakened in all of our branches simultaneously. Historically we have had moments in time where the judiciary has somewhat let us down, or an executive let us down. But we have a hyper partisan judiciary. That is not supposed to be. That is why they are not elected by citizenry. We have never had a authoritarian at this level or a breakdown of the legislative branch where the senate is working for the executive. The judiciary is working for the executive. And you have the house trying to hold it together in a very loose coalition. And the media being called fake news and enemies of the state. In a million years they couldnt contemplate donald trump, who wants to be an authoritarian. They didnt contemplate a gop senate who was afraid of not being elected again and an electorate that blindly, 40 of them, back this authoritarian. I promise we will get to that. One last question. You see this oped in the Washington Post by joe biden, Vice President joe biden. We talk about the American People being bludgeoned by the stories of this last week. The tact he is taking. We see the piece in the New York Times about the level of concern within the campaign. Among his allies how he handled this and responded to it. Your reaction to the efficacy of what the president has been doing here from Vice President biden. What we know from biden world, he was reluctant to get into this race because of concern of the impact it would have on his family. Hunter biden, his son, could become a target. It was clear from the beginning that this trump campaign, the president himself were going to make him a target. Were going to try to draw out or impress upon there was corruption that took place. So biden to some degree knew what he was getting into. I wonder if he knew it would be quite this bad. The normal practice is for the campaign to take the lead here. Trump is doing this personally. He is the one driving this message that there is corruption even though there is no substantiated evidence. Corruption on the part of bidens family. And thats difficult for biden to absorb. Peter, always great to speak with you. Thank you for joining us on this friday. Covers the white house for that magazine joining us on phpz. Still ahead, how the Biden Campaign is responding to the pressure to investigate the frontrunner. And we will dive into the actor and actress laverne cox. And kurt volker who testified in the house impeachment inquiry. Thats ahead. Mpeachment inquiry. 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Markets ecigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use ecigarettes. Juul is following big tobaccos playbook. And now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn ecigarette protections. Vote no on juul. No on big tobacco. No on prop c. This is up. Im david gura. Lawmakers will continue to hold closed door depositions this week. On tuesday, they are scheduled to question gordon sondland, ambassador to the European Union, who pushed ukraine to investigate the bidens even though they are not part of the European Union. Depositions of two other state depositions have yet to be scheduled. Before we look at the week to come as they gather steam, lets look back at the week that was. Adam schiff is exactly why we need term limits in this country. I was on the phone call. I was on the phone call. Shifty schiff. We dont call him shifty schiff for nothing. A shifty, dishonest guy. This praoeuz president of the United States is stooping to a level beneath the president of the United States. She hands out subpoenas like theyre cookies. Here you go. Take them. Like theyre cookies. If it were me i would recommend that they start an investigation into the bidens. China should start an investigation into the bidens. All of this talk about corruption comes from the most corrupt president we have had in modern history. He is the definition of corruption. Release of Text Messages was hugely consequential. Someone who knows curt folker, somebody involved in those texts. Served with am bass doer volker until last year when ambassador melville left. He explained his decision to leave the Foreign Service. America first is a sham. Im curious, first of all, mr. Ambassador, what you were thinking as you watched all of this unfold. You saw the Text Messages brought into daylight, what was going on between these ambassadors, the representatives working in europe. David, good morning. And thank you very much for allowing a Foreign Service perspective to be part of this important discussion. I was almost heartbroken because it seems to me what is going on is rather familiar. I have seen it in other countries, particularly in the Russian Federation where this fog of lies that comes from the very top just keeps citizens confused as to what the truth is and whether there is any truth. In fact, it is the truth that is the fundamental element that we need to keep our eyes on. And thats been the backbone of the work of diplomacy and the Foreign Service in particular is, you know, your integrity is the coin of the realm. If you lie, why would anybody want to believe you. I want to ask you about somebody else who has been involved in all of that. Bill taylor, the head of mission after the u. S. Ambassador to the ukraine was recalled back to washington, d. C. And you see the role that he played through the Text Messages. Very explicitly questioning what was going on both in washington and over in europe. As you talk about the Foreign Services, as i think about the piece that ambassador burns wrote for the New York Times just a week ago, how when you look at those assistant secretaries of state, there were i think seven vacancies and only one who is not a political appointee in those positions. What is this, what we have seen over the course of the week, tell us what we have learned the last two years, three years. Whats become of the state department in which you spent so much time working . Well, it goes much farther back than that. In the 19th century if you were well connected and wealthy american you could buy yourself a commission in the army, a colonel or a general. Thank goodness for our National Security, we got away from that particular model. But sadly that isnt the case with diplomacy where, you know, for a Million Dollars contributed to the president s inauguration, you could be the u. S. Ambassador to the European Union and play a diplomat in a very destructive way to our national interests. To gordon son land who is a hotelier in portland, oregon. Ambassador, thank you for joining us. I have a question for you. When we hear from ambassadors and people who worked in the state department, usually they are pretty straightforward. Theres not a lot of emotion. And honestly i was very taken by the fact that you looked clearly emotionally distraught as you started to speak with david. Can you tell me, tell us a little bit why you are having this deep emotional reaction that were all seeing in this particular moment. Believe me, i dont want to be here. I didnt ask for this. But as a citizen, im just so deeply concerned with whats going on and with the way we are being governed. And i know we can do better, and we have done better. And, you know, the real fundamental requirement here, and im glad curt will be testifying and they will be giving testimony because its the truth. And you shall know the truth and it should shall make you free is what it says in the bible. I fundamentally believe that. If i can help move toward keeping a focus on the need to discover the grouped facts, what is the truth, i think thats a contribution that might be useful. Ambassador, stay with us. You will come back a little bit later in the show. I want to read a line from his oped when he explained his retirement and his decision to resign. I have no sympathy or understanding for those who remain in Government Service while claiming to be ignoring or otherwise violating their instructions. We come back here, President Trump responds to calls for an impeachment of the aforementioned senator. Of the aforementioned senator gasp singsong budget meeting sweet. If you compare last quarter to this quarter. Various mmm. Its no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. Full of tasty, good for you ingredients. Fresh and filling. So that you too will be full of good. Try our new warm grain bowls today. Order now on doordash. Its what gives audible theresmembers an edge. Ening; it opens our minds, changes our perspective, connects us, and pushes us further. The most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories audible. Seeing what people left behind in the attic. Well, saving on Homeowners Insurance with geicos help was pretty fun too. Ahhhh, its a tiny dancer. They left a ton of stuff up here. Welp, enjoy your house. Nope. No thank you. Geico could help you save on homeowners and renters insurance. This is up. Im david gura. One of the members of a quiet chorus of republicans questioned the president s calls for investigations of a political rival is senator mitt romney of utah. He said the president s comments were wrong and appalling which prompted the president of the United States to call for mitt romn romneys impeachment. Impeach mitt romney he wrote on twitter. Senator ben sasse criticized the statements in a statement. And ernst and grassley. We were talking about the level of retribution, folks who protest against the president on the republican side can see. Here you have mitt romney, firstterm senator. A year in. Doesnt have a whole lot to lose. He was quibbling but i dont think it was a forceful statement. The president viewed members of his party as weak even before he took office. He does not see them as upholding sort of what it means to be a real american. So when mitt romney tip toes into criticism, we see this tweet storm on a weekend. When does he spend time with his family, i wonder. He is literally with the Remote Control and his phone tweeting about mitt romney serving this nation quite admirably over several decades. These are types of things that also upset the president just because he is so, you know, vastly insecure. So i will pause by saying it doesnt matter if we get a few opeds or tweets. What will matter when nancy pelosi counts these votes and this moves to actual impeachment, will the republicans stand up for the United States. The attack isnt about mitt romney at all. It is about keeping republicans in line and having them be ensnared by trump. He is speaking to not only the constituents of trump, although utah is not a big backer of trump, but his blasting of romney is to keep other gop, house and Senate Senators specifically. Specifically in line. He said theyre going to stay in line with me no matter what, no matter what my bad deeds are. He is trying to keep the senators in line. He doesnt care about mitt romney. William blount of tennessee back in the 18th century. And needed a super majority to do that. Protests in iraq and hong kong escalating. How worried should we be about what is being prioritized and ignored by this president. D ignored by this president. Ty, we present limu emu doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] its an honor to tell you that Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. And now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. If you wonder what is being neglected with all these huge issues we face, both foreign and domestic, well, the president obviously is totally consumed with attacking his opponents. You know, were fortunate we havent had a major crisis of the magnitude of a 9 11 attack. God forbid we have another one. But i worry about that. That stuck with me on wednesday night from cnn. James clapper earlier this week and what the president is not focusing on. Late saturday, the working Level Nuclear talks in sweden between pyongyang and washington dropped off, dashing hopes for a stalemate between the two countries. Ambassador james melville. Mr. Ambassador, i want you to react to that. The last part of the answer is particularly sobering. Yes, there are things the u. S. Is not involved with because they are not staffed to do it. But there is the prospect of something unplanned or unforeseen and a question of our ability to react to that. Your reaction to what James Clapper said . Director clapper is a very wiseman. In fact, it is something that we should all be concerned about. Its also something our adversaries are well aware of. When the leader of the United States is so easy to distract by either flattery or some other provocative activity, it is a threat to the rest of us and it becomes even more important that professionals are in place to look out for the National Security interests of the nation. How worried are you at this point when you look at the state of the state department, when you look at that Bloomberg News reporting how the staff will be reduced by this president. How worried are you about the apparatus as a whole . We talk about this a lot broadly. There isnt adequate staffing, things arent where they should be. I want to get a gut check from you when it comes to conducting foreign policy. Well, i left the state department a year ago, but im a pretty close observer. Im deeply disappointed in the performance of the secretary. Secretary pompeo should be standing up for the interests of diplomacy and for the Foreign Service. And if you look at the example of what happened to ambassador ya von vich, the way she was pushed out about her departure were not true, as it turns out. When secretary pompeo in athens the other day implied that we need to find out the truth about what happened in 2016 and with russian involvement and what it actually was, the secretary had been the director of Central Intelligence during the initial stages. He certainly knows better. He certainly knows what happened and the threat that the activities of foreign actors to our democracy is. Maria, that is the key point here, what he just said. Mike pompeo was the head of the cia. Whats the game here . If anybody knows completely what happened in 2016, which we all know to be true, whats he doing . Whats the game here . Boy, watching pompeo is so disconcerting. We know what he was doing in terms of benghazi, saying were going to take on hillary clinton. And so im thinking about i just got a call yesterday from a story im following. A young man who left honduras, the third time he left. Twice to the United States, sadly deported both times even though he has a case. He said im in a shelter in mexico. Now i have had to ask for asylum here. Because they are trying to kill me in honduras. And im thinking this administration thinks when they are saying all of these things that the people in honduras are deciding whether or not to leave depending on whats coming out of the white house, there is a humanitarian crisis going on, geopolitical. It has to do with climate change, foreign actors. And theres no discussion about it. And just this is not going to go away. Private prisons will now be detaining children. Real quick, do you feel safe in america under this administration . When you wake up in the morning, we all have families. Do you feel safe . Because i dont feel safe. I feel something, but i dont feel safe. Even republican president s i felt safe. And if something disastrous happens, does this administration, is this administration capable of protecting us, keeping us safe and fixing whoever does harm to us . Im not convinced we are there yet. Mr. Ambassador, last question. Going back to the story about the diplomats going to the hill to be deposed. You brought up secretary of state mike pompeo. He says he doesnt want his staff to be bullied. They will not cooperate immediately with the subpoenas. Scott bolden and i were talking during the break. I think a big question is how confident are you that they will provide all the information they need to provide to lawmakers . Ambassador volker provided the Text Messages straight to the committees. They could see them. The others i gather provided them to the state department, another ring through which lawmakers have to go to get the details. What is going to tell you they are telling the truth to lawmakers in these coming days . Well, a nonpoliticized nonpartisan Foreign Service is really important to the National Security of the United States. And the fact that the Foreign Service now is being put between conflicting instructions and guidance from from the secretary of state and their constitutional responsibility toward the legislative branch and legislative branchs making sure there is accountable and oversight being so vitally important means the Foreign Service is being abused. You know, this is a this is so important. We are so much better than this. And history is watching. People will remember for a very long time how we dealt with this situation. Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much. He started his career in the mid80s and now in charleston, south carolina. Ambassador melville, thank you for your time on this sunday. Why Mitch Mcconnell is backtracking on impeachment. Now he is seeing it as an opportunity. Now he is seeing it as an opportunity. New place to explore. Jill has entresto, a Heart Failure pill that helped keep people alive and out of the hospital. Dont take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. Dont take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren or if youve had angioedema with an ace or arb. The most serious side effects are angioedema, low Blood Pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. Ask your doctor about entresto. Where to next . door bell rings its ohey. This is amazing. With moderate to severe ulcerative colitis, are you okay . Even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart. So i talked to my doctor about humira. 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Alexander hamilton says in 63 what other body than the senate be trusted than to have the necessary impartiality to a adjudicate between the accused and the accuser, namely the people. So obviously in a world of Political Parties of intense partisanship in the senate, the house just collects facts after facts and presents them to the senate, can we trust the senate to evaluate it neutrally . This is up. Im david gura. That was jeffrey rosen, expert on constitutional law from philadelphia. He raised that crucial question can we trust the u. S. Senate to evaluate impeachment neutrally as the founders expected . Mitch mcconnell has said he would have no choice but to hold a trial if the house were to impeach President Trump. Now he is using it to raise money for his reelection campaign. Nancy pelosi is in the clutches of a left wing mob. They finally convince her to impeach the president. All of you know your constitution. The way that impeachment stops is when a senate majority, with me as majority leader. And i need your help. Please contribute before the deadline. Yes. There would be a trial. The question is how long that trial might be, how long this might play out . We know Mitch Mcconnell has shown that he completely works for the president , not for the American People. I mean, this is what is so genius about the president when he first got elected. He not only initially tried to cozy up to republicans. He put the vast majority of their wives in position. Elaine,000. She is a cabinet member. They are linked to president , as are their financial lives. So when Mitch Mcconnell says we all know our constitution, most of his supporters probably havent read the constitution. Because had they read the constitution they would know in article 1 when laying out the legislative branch, he knows he has a duty to make sure he evaluates the facts. As scott has said, there have been facts on facts on facts on this impeachment. He has shown time and time again, most of the republican senators are looking at they know they have won constituent they are worried about and that is the president of the United States. Do you agree with that . I agree with that. Be careful now. Mitch Mitch Connell is a master of the senate. Recently he suggested, i have seen reports where maybe there wont be a trial. There is a motion to dismiss in the Judicial Branch but there is a motion to to dismiss with the Senate Trials in hearings. They filed one against clinton, the democrats did. But it was three weeks into the trial. Dont sleep on Mitch Mcconnell thinking if he has a simple majority when the articles of impeachment comes to the senate that he files for a motion to dismiss, if you will. If he believes he has a super majority, those impeachment articles can, it will be subject to debate among law professors, but he can call for a vote the articles could be summarily dismissed. Thats a possibility. Not saying its a probability yet. But then where do we go next . I find him a real curiosity when he is speaking. I like when you see real curiosity. So many moments where he has all but vanished from the scene. Where is mitch . We cant find mitch . And he pops up in a facebook ad trying to raise money for his campaign. What does that tell you, though . Yes, he is working some service of this service, the service being the head of his party. Him being a matter tactician when it comes to the u. S. Senate, what is his presence and lack of presence tell you about the way he operates . It feels very slippery. It just feels very slippery. Yes, it does. Your ears perk up. Then it goes down the way side. I keep on having these images. One, of course, demographics in the United States. Its not destiny. But we do know whats happening in terms of demographics and who is going to be voting and the fact that the majority will be people of color soon. How does that play out with the Republican Party. But i have the image of and i dont like saying this. But will we see republicans being led out in handcuffs . I keep going back to watergate and thinking of people in the cabinet behind bars. Im not saying that about Mitch Mcconnell. Right now watching theyre so in the moment. And im thinking 10 years down the line what is this going to look like. Very quickly, last word to you. I think, though, when you talked about this during the break, the real key is what happens after this . If our democracy survives, where do we go from here . How do we evaluate our media . How do we recover from four or eight years of this admin vacation where we see the breakdown of our institutions and essentially aeraser of norm. He represents another whistleblower. And Kelly Odonnell conforms thats the case. You saw the piece in the New York Times yesterday about the prospect of there being a second whistleblower waiting in the wings. In that piece for abc news saying they do not know if the second whistleblower is the same one referred to in the New York Times piece. To recap, mark zaid, attorney for the first whistleblower saying he is representing another whistleblower. We will continue that story throughout the day here on msnbc. Thanks all of you for joining me on set this hour. Up next in the next hour, behind the scenes reporting on how the Biden Campaign is looking to take on the unsubstantiated claims. And laverne cox will talk about the landmark Supreme Court cases that will be argued this week. S that will be argued this week. Try new pepto liquicaps for fast relief and ultracoating. Nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea. Get powerful relief with new pepto bismol liquicaps. Burger i want a sugar cookie i want a bucket of chicken i want. Its the easiest, because its the cheesiest kraft. For the win win. Thats where i feel normal. Having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected. Learn more at retire your risk dot org. But super poligrip gives him a tight seal. Snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mikes denture. To help block out food particles. So he can enjoy the game. Super poligrip. Aaddiction. How juuline hooked kids and ignited an Public Health crisis. Other news outlets report juul took 12. 8 billion from big tobacco. Markets ecigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use ecigarettes. Juul is following big tobaccos playbook. And now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn ecigarette protections. Vote no on juul. No on big tobacco. No on prop c. Breaking news that mark zaid, the firm who represents the whistleblower, now representing a second whistleblower. We will check in with Kelly Odonnell for more on that. Senior editor and writer for the daily beast. Katie glik wrote a piece for the New York Times. Shes a political reporter for the New York Times. Eugene scott also a political reporter for cross town rival Washington Post. And moodymills democracyish. We wait to talk to Kelly Odonnell about this whistleblower. You talked to folks in the orbit of joe biden, about the level of concerns about how he and his campaign have responded that have been cast upon him. So this is an extraordinarily high stakes moment for joe biden. His advantage that he has seen in the polls for months has really started to slip as Elizabeth Warren rises in the polls. We saw his fundraising numbers, they trailed Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders. With the conflict and controversy involving president President Trump does offer a snapshot into what a general election might look like. There is a lot of focus on how joe biden is responding and disagreement among his allies and the best way to do it. Are you out there every day forcefully pushing back. Do you pivot to policy. We are seeing both play out. Folks have been concerned about not seeing them enough. We have all talked about that relationship, who is calling the shots on a Political Campaign like this. As you talk to those folks, what is the sense you have. Wrestling with so much personal tragedy in his past and has engaged with this on his own terms in the past. How much is he deciding how much he and the Campaign Want to engage with what the president has been doing . Ultimately, he is the candidate. It is his campaign. He is very much involved in this. On the one hand, he started this campaign pitching himself as the candidate, best position to take on donald trump. For months we saw him working to try and cast this as a twoperson race, trying to stay out of the fray of the democratic primary, trying to keep his focus on donald trump. Now theres new complications, this is someone fiercefully protective of his family. We have seen his response on a number of occasions the last year not wanting to get out ahead of congressional investigations and deferring there. So you see all of these competing instincts coming to a head at this very highstakes moment for joe biden. Also, just a number of stories swirling here. There is whats happening with the president. There were also the fundraising numbers and polling numbers as well. I want to get your sense of causation and causality and how that is contribute to go it seems like a cloud. I dont know how long it will last or sit over the campaign. Help me on how those integrate together. We know this is one of the biggest democratic fields we have seen in history. And many voters who already had questions about biden, especially those who voted for trump before and are looking for an alternative, just the conversations are making them reconsider if biden is the best person they believe should replace trump in the oval office. I think one thing i have talked to some voters who have expressed frustration with the speed in which biden responded and how he has responded, it gives a perception of he is not aware of the moment we are currently in. I believe there was a quote where he said that he was surprised the president went after his family. Anyone surprised that President Trump would attack you personally and this low has not been paying attention to President Trump. And part of the reason biden believes hes the best person for this moment is he has confidence in republicans that they will do the right thing that they will work with democrats. We havent seen that. We may have seen a different response this time. They havent come out and attacked trump the way biden would need to to stay ahead. Danielle i want to get you in on this. There was this impulse to position joe biden as the general election arrival or presumptive arrival to President Trump. There is an opportunity here to do that. As the president continues to do that, he is beagle sraeuted as a result of that. He is being seen at parody by this president. How does the Vice President use that more to his advantage Going Forward here . Should he . How can you do that and push back on the allegations. I think what joe biden to me is doing wrong is the fact that he is being very moderate. Not in his politics but his reaction to donald trump. What eugene said is absolutely right. The fact is anybody who would say, and he wrote this in his op oped, he would say he is surprised donald trump would do anything. We are so far past surprised with donald trump. And you need to understand the moment that youre in. The idea that he thinks that there are still republicans that are good, that are going to do the right thing, that are patriots. Im like what are you watching . What are you reading . I understand that he has 30 years of Public Service that he has done. But we are living in a different time. And he needs to be reacting to that and not his hopes and dreams of the past. Let me turn to the son of scrant scranton, the senator from pennsylvania who is a supporter of joe biden. Senator casey, let me start with the thread we are pulling on here if i could. That is that various concern in some camps, Vice President joe biden is out of touch with these times. He sees himself as the guy who could go up against donald trump. This is something that has come up time and time again during the course of this campaign, a sense of him being out of touch with this political moment or unable to engage with the way politics has changed as a result of us having a president of the United States. David, first and foremost, it is clear that joe biden is focused on what americans are focused on. Theres no question that people are concerned about what the president , the conduct of the president. Hes asking for a favor and the next page bringing up joe biden. The American People understand that fundamentally. But they also understand that weve got to make sure that not only candidates but congress is focused on their concerns. Like the issues the Vice President laid out today in his oped. Education, climate change, gun violence and health care. A lot of americans know joe biden well. They know his heart. They know his character. They want them to focus on their lives as much as washington is focusing right now on impeachment. So i think he is very much connected to what most people are talking about, maybe not as much on what washington is talking about. Senator casey has been thrust into this story and impeachment investigation. I want to give another update as we await a report on the white house. Nbc news can confirm that the attorney representing the first whistleblower represents multiple officials who will be making disclosures to the investigator general. What is your message . Youre in the jury pool, i suppose. You havent been impaneled yet. Your reaction to that and your message to these other whistleblowers we know are waiting in the wings. Well, first and foremost, we have to focus, especially the house is doing this now . Focus on the conduct of the president as i just wanted to in the transcript, which is clear as day. It is an abuse of power. It is a textbook case of abuse of power. Everyone knows that. At the same time, we have to make sure those who come forward are not only heard from but are protected. The president or any member of congress who threatens a whistleblower or creates a less safe environment for a whistleblower is breaking the law. And we have got to make sure we Pay Attention to that. But right now were seeing more and more evidence that not only with the president s public abuse of power when he brought up china the other day, as another country that should investigate his political opponent, but that there may be other instances here that we dont know about. Unfortunately we will be hearing more and more about abuse of power by the president of the United States. Going back to this piece in the New York Times katie glik wrote with alex burns, she was able to talk to the two senators from delaware. I saw a stunning admission from chris coons that, yes, joe biden knew that his family was going to play a role in the campaign, that they were likely to be attacked by the president , as the Campaign Goes on. Senator coons said he is surprised to the degree in which this happen. Katie, correct me if i said said that incorrectly. You know the man. You know his personal history, the tragedies he endured. Are you surprised to the degree in which this has happened the last few weeks . Well, look, i think everyone knows the way President Trump operates. When President Trump approaches an issue or a debate, he usually engages in four things. Fear and smear, demonize and divide. He is doing a smear right now. Most people thought he would get to this smear with no basis in fact, against joe biden. Maybe later in the campaign. The only surprise might be that it came this early. And it only came because he was under attack. Hes very good, as you know, at distracting attention. But joe biden is ready for this. He spent his whole life fighting against bullies, whether its bullies on the world stage like vladimir putin, the person President Trump will not confront. But i think joe biden is ready for this. And i know theres a lot of back and forth abo. I think hes doing real well. He had one of his best fundraising days of the entire campaign this week. I think he thats a strong campaign. Sometimes in washington we overanalyze some of the details or the metrics. Im going to tease this out more. I had a guest yesterday who said why doesnt he sit down and give more interviews. He gave a big speech in reno. If you were counseling him, is that something you think he should do. Im not sure i agree with that. The Vice President , you saw his oped today which makes it clear where he stands with the conduct of President Trump. He gave at least one or two major speeches on it. At some point we have to just allow the process to move forward. Have the house conduct its impeachment inquiry as they are charged to do under the constitution. Im in the senate. We dont have it in front of us yet. If youre a candidate for president , people expect you to demonstrate leadership on the campaign trail by the focus you have on education, health care, climate change, issues that affect their lives. Hes doing that, and i think the American People understand that. On health care, while were all talking about these impeachment issues which are critically important to the country and our National Security, the Republican Party, led by this president , are trying to tear away health care from tens of millions of people based on the lawsuit they support which will destroy health care in america, which could be decided at any moment. They are sabotaging the existing system, the exchanges, and they are trying to cut medicare and medicaid like no republican has ever cut. Vice President Biden knows that. Health care will be a central issue. And the president and his party is out to destroy the health care that you have, rip away all the protections for preexisting conditions. Im going to turn to Kelly Odonnell, again, month has done reporting on the law firm representing a second whistleblower. Get us up to speed what we know at this point reporter well, one of the things that has been at the heart of this, david, the president has tried to under cut the correct and knowledge of the first person, unidentified, unnamed individual who filed this formal complaint. So the law firm that represents that person now tells me they have multiple officials that are also represented by the firm and have spoken to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community and there is more direct knowledge. We know whistleblower 1 had not heard the call, for example, and was not directly firsthand involved in the events regarding the president s contact on in july of this year with the ukrainian president. So having additional officials would potentially presuming theyre all in line with what they are saying, corroboration for the first whistleblower. That could be very significant as people are trying to challenge the value of the information brought forward and if having the standing of that person meets what some of the people in the white house and some of the allies of the president have been saying that its not really a whistleblower because of not having the first hand knowledge. Think of this as a way to bolster the information thats brought forward. And very significantly that other officials feel comfortable taking this career risk to come forward with information. Whistleblowers are protected under the law. Their identity and protected from retaliation on their jobs for a reason, whether its government or corporate america. Whistleblowers have historically been vulnerable to criticism and to attack, frankly, when they come forward. So having additional officials with knowledge of the events around the ukraine call is significant. And it will make it harder for the white house to challenge the credibility of these individuals and at this point we dont know what sort of piece of this they may have if they have knowledge that expands what is already in the fact base that we have or if it simply corroborates what was known in the first complaint. Those are all the questions that will come, david. At this point the Law Firm Says they will not have any further comment. These are obviously sensitive issues. Capitol hill will be interested in this. And Michael Atkinson, who spent a lot of time on capitol hill friday, talking about his evaluation of the whistleblower complaint. If he has now been in touch with other officials as well who could corroborate parts of this. It seems significant on the facts and politically seems like more weight going against the president who tried to dismiss this. Kelly odonnell, youre so good at telling me what i dont know and doing it politely. We hear this and we think about the piece that was in the New York Times by adam goldman and michael schmidt. That whistleblower in the wings had conversations with atkinson, Inspector General for the Intelligence Community. I gather youre saying we dont know in this group of whistleblower that law firm represents. We dont know if they have spoken yet to the Inspector General. Are we right about that . Reporter its hard to know if the figure described by another news outlet is the same individual. What we can say is in the area of this sort of National Security law, the attorney team, and there are multiple lawyers involved representing whistleblower 1 now has among their clients additional officials who theyre characterizing as whistle blowers. So is it a second or more . Theyre using the term multiple. What we dont yet know is what pieces of story might they corroborate from the july call. Do they have new information . Is their type of Job Description providing some other window into the event . Those are the big questions. Its our understanding that the whistleblowers, as defined by the legal team, have in fact, spoken to the Inspector General. And that makes sense because in order to be labeled a whistleblower under the law, you have to be in the system. So speaking to the Inspector General would help to sort of trigger that protection. So we know at least at this point these are officials who have provided information in an official chain of events and not just individuals on the outside who havent told their story yet. Calling them whistleblowers, they have to have provided information in the formal pathway that whistleblowers do. That might sound complicated. The key thing is there is more than one person willing to put their job on the line to say this is something that happened. I have information. All right. We will come back and talk about this on the break. I apologize with all the breaking news. Much more on this breaking news. Multiple whistle phroers being represented in connection to the Inspector Generals august report. But first a president without a war room but on the warpath. How the white house is dealing with the impeachment behind the scenes. Ment behind the scesen if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture now might not be the best time to ask yourself are my bones strong . Life is full of make or break moments. Thats why its so important to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. Only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. Do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it or take xgeva® serious allergic reactions, like low Blood Pressure trouble breathing; throat tightness; face, lip, or tongue swelling rash; itching; or hives have happened. 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Call, click, or visit a store today. Aaddiction. How juuline hooked kids and ignited an Public Health crisis. Other news outlets report juul took 12. 8 billion from big tobacco. Markets ecigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use ecigarettes. Juul is following big tobaccos playbook. And now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn ecigarette protections. Vote no on juul. No on big tobacco. No on prop c. Welcome back to up on msnbc. The firm who is representing the first whistleblower now says it is representing multiple whistleblowers. Margaret, your reaction to this news. Last break we were talking about the degree to which the president cast a persians and calling credibility into doubt. Right. How does this change from the colleagues from nbc, abc and others are coming forward in a corroborative way . One of the things the media needs to keep in mind as we go forward with this, President Trump and his surrogates are going to trash the whole idea of a whistleblower and really cast a persians on it. And thats part of what the media has to do, is set people straight about what are the rules about protecting whistle phroers. What is the role of these folks and to kind of push back against the Disinformation Campaign we have seen and we will see more of. I saw you nodding as kelly was talking about who can be a whistleblower, the protections afforded to him or her as well. Your reaction . We know the first has a background in the cia. You have these stphaoubinstitut fbi, cia, nypd. They are the ones who gather the information, part of the Intelligence Community. Now you have the president of the United States or republicans, ron johnson is out saying the fbi and the cia can never be trusted. It tugs at their coattails. Im not going to let this person be on their own. I want to be part of this too. Sort of a from terpbt if you will. Senator bob casey is still with us. React to what was quoted there. There is a stain on the fbi or cia. They cant be trusted. There is this deep state happening here. There is a sanctity that dates back to the founding of this country. How worried are you about the integrity of the process. That being you have a president who is calling the whole thing into doubt. David, i think there are a lot of republican members of congress who have to ask a basic question, are you going to serve the country or be a lap dog for a president. Its as simple as that. Senator romney is being very clear about how egregious and unlawful, and im using my words, the conduct of this president. A lot of republicans have been his lap dogs for a long time. They have to ask a very basic question. They dont have to draw conclusions today. But in the end, theyre going to have to make a determination about the conduct of this president and examine their conscious, or they should, whether its the fbi or Intelligence Community, people who put their lives at risk for the American People on a regular basis. These apart people who sit behind desks every day. They work on behalf of the American People. Every institution makes mistakes. But they only think about the American People. They are not thinking about a politician, election or how they can advance their personal political agenda. Republicans have to ask where they stand with regard to unlawful conduct and whether or not they will support the institutions that keep us safe from enemies around the world and from enemies and those who would do as harm here at home. That is fundamental to our country. Katie, how is this resonating on the campaign . How to talk about this issue publicly, talk about the claims, publicly talk about whatever Rudy Giuliani and the president have said. You write so well about joe biden, the institutionalist. There must be therein an impulse to speak out, to harry the president criticize longstanding members of the government, people who filled these jobs in Civil Service and the Security Side of things. Yet is he holding back there . Taking a step back and the way he responded both on this issue and also with the mueller investigation, it has been to defer to that institution, to tkoeps, the congressional investigations. Certainly the last couple of weeks we have seen Vice President biden perhaps come out more forcefully on the impeachment question, speak a little bit more openly about that than perhaps we have in the past. No doubt it is a complicated issue. Taking a step back and looking at what this does to the 2020 campaign at large. On one front it injects a serious degree of uncertainty and risk for a number of candidates in terms of how this ends up playing out. For some of the lower polling candidates, it deprives a lot of them of oxygen. That is something you hear from a lot of campaigns. Joe biden has a platform to respond to that. Elizabeth warren continues to have a platform. Sanders still has a strong base and strong fundraising. He has a platform as well. For some of the other candidates hoping for breakout moments and need to add ox citizen, that becomes that much harder. Turning back to you and something Kelly Odonnell said in the last block, yes, the Law Firm Says they represent multiple whistleblowers. You write so well about transparency, for politicians to be trance patiesparentransparen transparent. We dont know the identity him or her, such as the way the system is supposed to work. Thats right. And yet when you have these whispering about the voracity of what he or she is saying, let me understand who you are, that right you have to the this and what we know. How do we navigate Going Forward . This is a really delicate balance for the media i think. I reject the skwrd we must publish every single thing we know. So you were critical of the times doing that . I understand the argument for publishing. I would have been more circumspect if i had to make that call, and im glad i didnt have to make that call. Evens editor i didnt have to comment on it. We need to keep in mind that people are taking a risk. There are rules around whistle blowing. People are hungry for information. We have to walk a careful line. Pete nichols was here yesterday. And he said that all of light being cast is going to encourage others to go forward. Raisings the spectre of treason. He thought there might be comfort in this happening. Is that what you think were seeing today . We have this news, multiple folks coming forward represented by the firms as wouldbe whistle blowers. We would certainly hope so. Most americans think President Trump is the most divisive president in history. He has tried to frame everyones criticism of him in they just dont like me. The reality is whether thats true or not, what people need to ask themselves is what are they blowing a whistle about . Not everything is about whether youre on the trump train or not. There are ethics, morals, and things that should be done when youre leading the country. All americans deeply invested in the wellbeing of this country should know if we are being violated. When we see multiple whistleblowers coming out, not everyone at the Trump White House doesnt like trump. There are quite a few there who dont. But there are things we need to know if multiple people know, they should be making it public. And everyone regardless on where they stand should want to encourage that. Thank you very much for joining us. My thanks to bob casey as well. And we will play ron johnson, the senator. Up next, multiple whistle blowers in conjunction with the phone call President Trump made with his counterpart in ukraine. Well be right back. N ukraine. Well be right back. Limu emu doug hour 36 in the stakeout. As soon as the homeowners arrive, well inform them that Liberty Mutual customizes home insurance, so theyll only pay for what they need. Your turn to keep watch, limu. Wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. The president betrayed his oath of office. He is engaged in serious wrongdoing. The administration, without justification, withheld 391 million in military aid from a vulnerable ukraine. The president then pressure said a foreign leader to interfere in the 2020 elections and target an american citizen for political gain. That is textbook abuse of power. That is just a few moments ago on abc this week. The law firm that represents the first whistleblower now represents another. Let me talk to you, danielle. Let me bring you in on this point. People have said the evidence is there in plain sight. We have what the president said after the phone call in terms of calling out to china saying things in plain daylight. How much does the second whistleblower matter . Were talking about corroboration here as the story continues to develop . How much does that matter in light of what we already know . I think it matters a lot. We want to see a pattern being informed here, this president is corrupt, he has been running a criminal operation, people have circled the wagons to make sure that he can continue to do what he is doing against the best interest of the American People. Having multiple whistleblowers coming out saying, oh, my god, do these people have a conscious . Are they going to do whats right for the American People, even if that means risking a lot . Right now they are risking a lot. To be a whistleblower is to have a target on your back by donald trump. What makes me most concerned is not the nasty things he says or tweets or what have you. What makes me worried are the people that he is talking to. That donald trump is whistleblowing too, his unhinged followers. Month knows what they will do. Who knows how they will react. Those are the people im most concerned about. Having a pattern of them coming out, and i hope there are not one, two, five, ten, i hope there are a lot of them that come forward and saying im not going down with the trump titanic. Im getting off the ship now. Im going to save myself. How do you see this playing out . We had the first whistleblower. A lot from that complaint. I presume we will learn more about the complaint in the coming days here. You have the chairman of the Intelligence Committee adam schiff trying to navigate all of this. He is now in the drivers seat trying to command whats Going Forward. Now having another claim presumably when it will be by the Inspector General when it gets to the hill. Any person who is a defendant, whether its in something considered criminal. Its like the more people that start coming out against you, you know, that is corroborating evidence. Thats witnesses. You might have the second whistleblower say i heard the call and explains it in his complaint. Now you have a second person. Is it the same . And if you have a third or fourth, i dont know. As people keep coming forward, you have a complaint that is corroborated. You have a story that has, you know, the American People being like, okay, maybe something did happen. You have congressional leaders being, okay, theres three or four. I have multiple peoples evidence. They are all categorizing it in a similar fashion. It becomes harder to push up against. We know from that complaint that the first whistleblower laid out who was privy to the conversations, who was aware of all of this. It is something they have said time and time again he was provided with a clear road map Going Forward here. This would just add more detail to what he has. Absolutely. People will want to know who else knew and how high up are they . We learned out later mike pompeo was on the call. Mike pence was more aware what happened before it became public. So people will want to know, is this just about donald trump acting in a way that should raise concern among the american public, or are there other people high up in the government in this white house that have been trusted to be of service to the public first and foremost that may be behaving in a way that raises concern. This is something as we move into the 2020 campaign and people who voted for trump before, who are looking for another option, at least not looking to maybe vote at all or forcing themselves to ask themselves do i want four more years of this. Can i take any more of this . Many of them will say no. We know that the law firm representing the first whistleblower is representing multiple whistleblowers. We are continuing to cover this throughout the morning on msnbc. When we come back, a former federal prosecutor will join us. Thats coming up next. Deral pro. Thats coming up next. But dad, youve got allstate. With accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates wont go up just because of an accident. Smart kid. Indeed. Are you in good hands . Were following this breaking news this morning. The attorney for the first whistleblower now saying he represents multiple whistleblowers. The Attorneys Office releasing a statement saying i can confirm that my firm and my team represent multiple whistleblowers in in connection to the august 12th disclosure to the Intelligence Community Inspector General. Also the Attorney Says the second whistleblower has firsthand knowledge of trumps call with the president of ukraine. Joining us in new york, glen kirs kirschner. He has firsthand knowledge of that conversation. This has been rightly or wrongly that President Trump has talked about. He is using that to cast doubt or a sperbspersions on this individual. You can come back to what the president is saying. When you say rightly or wrongly. We have firsthand Knowledge Based on the summary of the phone call. But that doesnt stop the president for grasping for some criticism. Firsthand knowledge will be important. So when we see the second whistleblower come forward and we learn what he or she has to say, lets see if it corroborates what the first whistleblower has said, see if it corroborates the summary, not the transcript but the summary of the phone call. Yeah. But you know what, theres strength in numbers. I can tell you, david, as a former prosecutor, when i would go into court with one witness, you can bet the defense will focus like a laser beam on trying to discredit that witness. You are untruthful. You had no opportunity to be in a position to see what you claim you saw. You are biased. You have a motive you have a grudge against the defendant. When you have two, it becomes far more difficult to do that persuasively. Now, when you have two, the defense shifts to its its a conspiracy. The two people got together. They made it up. They both have a grudge. More so if you have three, four, five. Now it is a grand conspiracy. But grand suspiciouses dont hold together particularly well. I think we all sense that maybe the whistleblower flood tkpaeuts agates are opening. If i am a career Civil Servant and i come forward and you start criticizing me and aing taing me unfairly, well, my colleagues are going to step up because theyre in the same position. This may be the beginning of something really important. Last question to you, the vagary in the term multiple whistleblowers, leaving the term open for how many might be there. You worked for the stphptor general. What about the role he is playing now . Inspector general. What about the role he is playing now . They had interfaced with Michael Atkinson before, he had interviewed that individual. Help me understand the role he will play Going Forward. The role of any Inspector General is supposed to be a separate, independent Office Inside an organization. To really get at any misconduct thats going on. And ill tell you, Michael Atkinson and i overlapped for 10 years from 2006 to 2016. Now, i was on the Violent Crimes side, he was on fraud and public corruption side of our practice. You ill tell you, we have many longtime friends and colleagues in common. I have spoken with all of them recently. They all reinforced what i saw firsthand, which he is a head down, working his cases thoughtfully, ethically, methodically, diligently, and when other people in the office had thorny issues, particularly thorny ethical issues, theyre going to walk into Michael Atkinsons office to try to get the right answer. Always good to talk to somebody who knows the principles. My thanks to you. A fastmoving forward. Appreciate your forbearance with that as well. The Supreme Court could hear arguments in three places. A major decision on workplace that would affect not just lgbtq but everybody. Laverne cox will join me next. Larnvee cox will join me next. Horsepower. 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Or allergic reactions to your doctor right away in patients with sickle cell disorders, serious, sometimes. Fatal crises can occur. The most common side effect. Is bone and muscle ache. Ask your doctor. About neulasta onpro. Pay no more than 5 per dose with copay card. This is up. Im david gura. It is being described as an epidem epidemic. That according to many experts, the total is actually higher than that. Because some people are mis gendered in reports. I bring this up because the Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments in three discrimination cases that will have a profound effect on lbgtq americans. They lost their jobs after revealing they are part of the lbgtq community. Is it legal to fire somebody for being gay or transgender . Deputy director with aclu lbgtq and hiv project. He will be at Supreme Court along with laverne cox. I see anybody who watched the emmys, october 8th, title 7, Supreme Court. Yes. Lets understand why this is of such keen interest to you and what will be happening. Well, i believe this is probably the most significant case for lbgtq that will hear in in my lifetime because it has implications not just for lbgtq people in the workplace but for everyone in the workplace. And it can have significance in health care, housing. A year ago the New York Times wrote a story that basically said they want to define transgender folks out of existence. There was a leaked memo from the department of health and Human Services who want to define gender and sex that takes them out of legal protections. The first thing this administration did in 2017 when they came into office is rescind rights in schools, the trans military ban. Earlier this year they wanted to discriminate against them in health care. And so not just trans people. So the stigma of how deeply stigmatized and dehumanized leads to this epidemic of murders. Leads to us not being able of m and us not being able to get jobs. When we cant get jobs were pushed out of the work force and forced into situations that expose us to more violence. Pick up on that, chase, how pivotal this is going to be and what it says about labor in this country today and the next head of the labor department, what is this going to mean for Workplace Dynamics . I think what i really want people to understand is this absolutely has a transformative effect on the American Workplace and on civil rights laws as a general matter. Across the board. We really have to see this as part of a longterm strategy to chip away at civil rights protections for everyone. When the Court Hears Arguments on tuesday, the Trump Administration and the employers are going to make two central arguments. One is lgbtq arent covered. That its not sex discrimination to fire us why it is. And can i explain why it is . I would like to do that. Lets say you fire me because im transgender. So you fired me for one of two reasons. Maybe you fired me because you see me as a man but im not the right kind of man. Youre like oh, youre a little bit feminine, or youre assigned female at birth. Thats not what we think a man is. That is sex discrimination. Maybe you fired me because i was assigned female at birth. Thats sex discrimination. The only way the employers and administration can urge them to stop discrimination about is to roll back chris its been the very way that we have transformed the American Workplace way from the madman dynamics and pushing women, all women out of the workplace. Lavern, central is sex versus sexual orientation. I want to take a step back. There is going to be a heated debate, heated argument about those terms. How important is this just more broadly culturally to the way that we all regard and accept and interact with the lgbtq plus community . In other words, this is happening on the legal side of things. How does that factor into wider cultural acceptance . Where im at with all of this, i think getting into defining, im not interested in that. I am here. I exist. Transgender people have existed since the beginning of time. If we are here and we exist, we should have civil rights in the United States of america. We should have them globally. And for me, thats the conversation. And the conversation should not be about defining what gender and what sex is. Its about the humanity of these folks who have always been here. And should have a right to exist. When we dehumanize people, then we can discriminate against them. So much of what is going on is about dehumanizing the community in general. We are human beings and we have a bright. To be able to work, i feel so blessed that i can live in the United States of america and do what i love and i get a sense of enjoyment and fulfillment being able to work and take care of myself. That is something that builds such an incredible sense of selfesteem to be able to take care of your family. Everybody should have that right. You should not be denied that. Andy stevens was a valued employee at the harris employee at the harris funeral home when she said she was transin a letter and she was fired. Her employer said we cant do this. It had to do with who she was. Thats the issue. Its not about whether we should exist or not. We exist and we always have, and no matter how much they discriminate against us, were still going to exist. So why dont we have rights . Tell me about your violent. There are broad issues at play. Title 7 00 is kind of obtuse. Tell us about your client and who the individuals are who are going to be remitting this case here in the court on tuesday. Amy stevens is a human being. She was a valued worker and she was struggling inside as so many trans people do, and we only get to live one life. She was hiding who she was. That was killing inside. She had one choice which is to say this is who i am and im going to be compassionate with everyone who come s intothis workplace. But i am amy stevens. I am a woman. And then shes fired. That was six years ago. This case has been working its way through the courts for six years. She lost her health insurance. She lost her stability. Her income. Her physical health. And so what we see as laverne cox mention second down when we are pushed out of the workplace as so many transpeople are, that increases our vulnerability to violence and makes us more likely to be killed. One thing thats devastating about the arguments presented before the court, particularly by amy stevens employer, theyre saying its for her own good. Somehow trans people should benefit by being fired because it forces us to our assigned sex at birth. We cannot live that way. We have one chance to live as who we are. Thats what amy was brave enough to do and stand up for. Thats what this is really about. Are you going to see us as human beings or push us out of public life . Thank you very much. Good luck making your trek to d. C. Up ahead, cory booker and top House Democrat ma max and water join us. Max and waters join us. E diarrhea. The leading competitor only treats symptoms. It does nothing to kill the bacteria. Treat diarrhea at its source with new pepto diarrhea. Sleep this amazing . Thats a zzzquil pure zzzs sleep. Our liquid has a unique botanical blend, while an optimal melatonin level means no nextday grogginess. Zzzquil pure zzzs. Naturally superior sleep. Thank you for watching. A. M. Joy starts right now. Good morning. Welcome to a. M. Joy. Im in for joy reed. We start this morning with breaking news. The attorney representing the whistleblower who revealed Donald Trumps phone call with the ukrainian president that has prompted an impeachment inquiry says he now represents multiple whistleblowers related to the same complaint. Joining me right now is nbc News White House correspondent Kelly Odonnell. Kelly, thank you for being on the show. Bring us up to date on whats been happening. Reporter what stands out here is the legal team that remits whistleblower one tells me there is a second whistleblower and multiple they describe multiple officials who have cooperated with the Intelligence Community Inspector General. Im told this does not mean that theres a second formal complaint. We remember whistleblower one filed documents that have been made public, and weve been able to see the narrative. That person described it. In this case what im told is that by virtue of cooperating with the Intelligence Community Inspector General and one might presume corroborating some of what was learned in the first complaint, that these individuals are also protected whistleblowers. So what we know is based on the