Transcripts For MSNBCW Up W Chris Hayes 20111105

lot. and more on the presidential candidate herman cain. right now, i'm joined by sam cedar, writer and activist angela davis, former fashion editor. alease jordan a former speech riter for condoleezza rice and "up" veteran john as well as a contributing editor. it's great to have you at the table. thanks for getting up so early. today is officially bank transfer day. it's move your money day. in washington last night, three d.c. protesters protesting an event were hit by a car as they tried to block ak stosz tccess event. they ran toward or jumped in front of the vehicle. three injured protesters were taken to the hospital. the injuries are non-life threatening. the driver first struck two of them, kept going to hit the third. the driver was not charged. another iraq war veteran was sent to the hospital after joining occupy oakland event. he told them he was beaten by police following the general strike there this week, the first in the city since 1946. the strike was called. an iraq war veteran whose skull was fractured last month. they shut down the nation's fifth largest port for most of the day. do we have the photo of the bikes in front of the port? i really like that. 3,187 people have been arrested in the occupy movement so far. at least 90 are open and operating across the country. today is an opportunity to do something concrete about it. it's officially bank transfer day. move your money is an idea, it was an arianna huffington brain child. if you don't like the too big to fail banks, the ones with t.a.r.p. money and the ones largely responsible then stop being their customer and go out and move your money to a credit union. we were talking about doing this topic today at a meeting. i was like is this a thing? is this actually a thing or are we hyping a thing that is not a thing. then we got data, in the past month since september 29th, when bank of america announced the new $5 debit fee. in the past month 650,000 americans joined credit unions. it's more than 2010 combined. i wonder, what do you think of move your money as activism, as an expression of a political view? as the tables one republican, what do you think of move your money? >> i think it's common sense. it surprises me it's a trendy movement. i'm from mississippi and always had my money in a community bank. they are local board members. they have a vested interest in the community around them. it's not, you know, to go deposit in bank of america when i'm in mississippi, i have to go an hour. it's not like there's a huge outpost of banks. it seems like it's a blue state problem. there are plenty of people around the country who have their money in community banks. i think it's a great thing. >> it's more than a blue state problem. >> exactly. >> one of the things that happened for people with their money in local banks, they have been eaten up. >> it's great to support the local banks and people are giving attention to this and doing something about it. >> yeah. >> i'm not sure how much it really hurts the banks or actually stabilizes the industry. what it is, what we are seeing is a growing series of steps that people are taking and getting more engaged with the issues they see that they have a problem with in the country. while this may not have a direct effect, it's one more step that people are taking psychologically to get involved in a movement that's growing week after week. >> this is historical because with movements like these, there's always a danger of what's keeping it going is the spectacle, the joy of acting up, unfocused cynicism. i was afraid occupy wall street was going to be that. people that support it like watching people that are angry and laying in front of cars and drama. it has to be more than that. are people going to require something change in the country? if we are going start making our banks step up, if it's symbolic, then occupy wall street becomes something other than what there will be a movie about in two years. >> to that point, do you think this is trendy or like you said, it's another step in strategies or ways that people feel they are being active in their own lives and seeing and challenging economic democracy. we see knock si work in a lot of ways except in our economics. it may be symbolic, but i see it as part of a movement, not a trendy act. >> what i think is interesting about it, it puts together two things. there's the element of it that's political. you are the banks that caused the crisis and you are the recipients of you are too big to fail, you are screwing us and the consumer activists. nobody likes their banks. everybody hates their banks. i'm not going to say who my bank is. i'm fairly on top of it. i have to get up to come to the show. i find myself getting overdraft fees all the time, hidden fees popping up. you know what i mean? there's something wrong with the system if that is happening, right? >> bank loyalty with a small town bank in the past i might have had an overdraft, you were a loyal customer, they might tend to overlook it in a way that's never going to happen with bank of america. >> is that true? >> yes! yes! you know, you call and say -- >> can we work this out? can y'all work this out? >> i'm getting business for the bank. come down, we'll take your money. >> everyone at this table is privileges because we are at this table. if you are feeling that, imagine how you are feeling in mississippi without any money and your bank is still sucking it. the community banks were on some level but if you have to move money, if you have to do business, if you have to have your check cleared at a bank, sometimes it doesn't work. we have to figure out how we can be human beings but also work. >> we have to figure out how to impose -- >> community banks, i'm not sure i read the statistic, but they will give loans more readily to small businesses and they fund a ton of farming. it's much more. i feel like community banks do help. >> the model of community banking has been relatively -- hasn't been quite as wiped out from the subprime crisis. scholars have written about this. the model of community banking rests on judgment and interaction. the idea, the whole idea, we all know this from it's a wonderful life, the idea is the guy comes in, says i'm going to start a diner. you say it's not going to work, i know that corner, there's not enough street traffic, it's not a good idea. or i know you, you are a responsible guy, you are going to pay it back. that's the model that was destroyed by a sector that became impersonal and that has led us to the crisis. >> in terms of that model, there's incentive that is were across purposes. instead of me determining whether or not you are a valid loan, i'm saying i don't care. i don't care. >> that's right. it's worse. >> i'm going to actually make you appear to be a good loan. i'm going to get the fees and sell the loan to somebody i don't know. that was a big problem. i think, you know, the amazing thing about this is not just that people are doing it because they are upset as a consumer or even the politics but overcoming a tremendous amount of intimidation. you know, i look at my bank statements and half the time i don't understand what the columns are. the idea of moving to another bank and oh, my god, what's going to happen to my check if i do direct deposit. it's intimidating. i consider myself somewhat savvy. >> i consider that with two things in my life. i was trying to figure out the debt with greeks. my cell phone bill is opaque and beyond my grasp. it seems like there's something wrong if that's the case. we're going to talk about a whole lot more after this break. we're centurylink... a new kind of broadband company committed to providing honest, personal service from real people... 5-year price-lock guarantees... consistently fast speeds... and more ways to customize your technology. ♪ you want to hear you've done a good job. that's why i recommend a rinse like crest pro-health multi-protection. it helps you get a better dental check-up. so be ready for your next dental check-up. try any crest pro-health rinse. just found out cbs news is reporting that andy rooney passed away at 92 years. we send our condolences to friends and family. we are back at the table talking about occupy wall street. you are catching flak on twitter. what happens to editors when they go on chris hayes' show? you are not carrying the torch. >> is that what's in here? >> exactly. little did you know. shout out to that viewer. what i think is interesting, actually is one of the things, the sort of animosity people feel toward banks and the feeling they are removed and the localism in the banks. we have the overlaps, i think between occupy wall street people and tea party people and people on the right and left who feel it's too big and too removed. >> i went down to occupy wall street yesterday. what i found surprising about it was a lot of stances in this would have been offensive had i decided to engage with the protesters were similar to tea partiers. they hate the feds. there are many movements represented down there. the attitude toward the fed, how he felt we were ruining the economy for the next generation. generational theft, which is a huge tea party theme. i think this is something that right now the movement is very polarizing. you really look at it and it's grass roots tea partiers, people in red states and plenty of people on the radical left who have, if ron paul wants to get rid of the fed, too. >> it's interesting that the occupy movement is global. however, i don't see the tea party in greece. >> that's an interesting point. >> i just came back from south africa and the youth anc were doing the same thing. their issues were very similar. >> really? were they doing occupy public spaces? >> they gather to johannesburg and travel. they are young people with no jobs and no thought of jobs but their issues are about education, economic balance and for them, mostly about land redistribution and access to jobs. so, where i do, you know, that's what's fascinating about the tea party movement is it was very american. however, the philosophy wasn't global. that's why you don't see tea in the uk. >> there was. this is one of the most hilarious footnotes in the tea party movement, there was a period of time where activists in the uk tried to start a british tea party. which side of that are you going to take the tea back out of the water and put it into the boat? >> another similarity between the tea party and occupy wall street that depresses me is they are both middle class movements. a lot of the theme is it's too hard to be middle class. the system isn't fair. we want to redistribute. >> i don't think -- there's something very true -- >> i think there's an element of that. i think it's more of an addition rather than an exclusivity. one of the elements that took place in oakland the other night was the occupiers occupied the travel aid society which is an abandoned building at this point but housed the administration of a homeless center. one of the things that's interesting that's happening about the occupy movement is that there's a host of issues emanating out of it and getting into the mix whether it's vets rights as they come back, whether it's -- >> helping pets. >> there's a broad scope of issues coming out of it. the other major difference is almost a process one. we know now through research the tea party is essentially long time republicans. i don't think you can say the same in terms of the partisanship of the occupy wall streeters. it tilts democrats but to a certain extent there are people outside to the left. >> a lot of democrats that i think obama is going to have a tough time going out. >> you are saying it would be a good thing if the focus wasn't what the spark was, which is rich people are too rich and we who used to be in the middle class are becoming poor. that was the start of this. >> a lot of things are emanating out of that perspective. >> let me talk about that for a second. you touched on something, i want to play a piece of tape that went viral on the internet. it gets to one of the most interesting things about occupy wall street is the openness of the template has a burst of activi activity. different kinds of activism and different issues. they came up with a clever way to have it at the banks and posted a video to use junk mail. check this out. >> most of the junk mail i get is unsolicited credit card offers. i used to toss them in the bin unopened. occupy wall street got me thinking they are from the same financial institutions that ruined our economy. everyone can do this. take the envelope, lick it, sale it and send it back empty. it's not about running up the postage bill, the effect is to force banks to react to us. if they start getting hundreds and thousands of weird responses to their credit card applications, well, they are going to have to have meetings and develop new procedures. every hour banks spend reacting to us, our banks to lobby congress on how to screw us or an hour they don't spend foreclosing on our houses. >> a clever way of expressing decent and protesting the banks by using their junk mail. the other clip shows an occupy wall street. it's almost like the internet. the internet isn't a thing. there's no content. it's a platform. people do all sorts of different things in it. they make wikipedia or videos of their cat falling asleep in an endurable fashion. this is -- john is like, i think i've seen that one. nodding his head. so this is -- this is a bunch of people at a speech that governor scott walker of wisconsin, republican governor scott walker did in chicago. this is people showing up and using the mic, a method of the voice. this is them talking back to scott walker in chicago. >> sole purpose is for congress -- >> i object. i object! i object! as we sit here at this fancy breakfast! >> their voice is different than others out there. >> on the lives of working families! governor walker vilified unions! he insulted 99%. support their families! >> okay. >> on the payroll! >> whoa! whoa! whoa! >> that's the folks talking to scott walker, talking back to scott walker. let's take a break and talk more about this issue, occupy wall street when we come back. 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[ r yilht ha ♪ >> in the mood to chill here at 7:30 this morning. that was my call, by the way, in case anyone is getting back to the control room folks. >> i like the chair dance. >> thanks. just getting the feel. i actually, i had threatened this last weekend when herman cain ad, i am america ad came out. i wanted to do i am america karaoke. it's been in my head for two straight weeks. i won't sing it now for you. let me read this e-mail quick. then you can weigh in. this is another data point in is moving your money the question. this is from fire dog lake reporting it's an internal e-mail that chase sent to its employees. global security and investigations is monitoring tightly and we have preparedness. branch partners need our awareness and support. make sure bank transfer day is a chase day. let me say this for the record here. we reached out to jpmorgan chase, citibank and goldman sachs, they all declined. i would love to have, i would have a panel of four representatives in the too big to fail banks. i want to wish you all a happy chase pride day. >> i have been a chase pride for a long time. >> we are seeing these different ways of sort of producing disruption, drama as john said. i think, yeah. >> what we saw in terms of the mic check with scott walker, it's not just about disruption. it's fundamentally a transfer in that room. >> that's interesting. >> you have the wonderful video of the same thing happening at a department of education meeting in new york city where they had to close down the meeting. the chancellor started to speak and essentially the parents of children started to speak -- >> with the same mic check thing. >> awesome. >> it was the same with the electronic microphones. it is a fascinating shift. the other thing i would say is different in terms of this movement versus the tea party is that, with all due respect, while the tea party dressed up like the founding fathers, on some level, these people are acting like, they are down in the park and creating a new organization. >> respond to that. >> here is how i think they are alike. both movements are very white. it's something the mainstream media hasn't wanted to report on. it goes against the narrative. >> i was in africa. itis not very white there. >> the park is -- let me say this, no one has taken a census, but it's far more diverse than the tea party rallies i have been to. there's no question. >> people are only covering the big cities. the occupy in little towns and this is why i was challenging the idea that it's middle class. there are working class people, poor people, teachers, firefighters in these 300, 400, occupies across the country. it's not just oakland. it's all over. it's multigenerational. it's a real thing. >> i haven't been to those places. i'm literally ingesting what the media is giving me. look at how with the tea party rally, there was the allegations that john lewis, racial slurs against him that haven't died out in the media even though no one proved it was one isolated person yet people are wearing pretty horrific shirts with a slur. the media is making nothing over that. >> we covered that last week on the program. we went into depth on one of the people featured in the ad. i think it -- >> accountability. hold them accountable. >> this is lotionman. i think what the video showed to button this, it is not at all representative. in fact services were held with dozens in attendance. >> there was hundreds of people. more people there than at my show in my hometown. >> in the same way, i don't think the occupy wall street -- >> yes. >> the tea party, the mainstream media loves the narrative. >> i will say this, i will concede this, the ad about anti-semitism on wall street made me think about what standard i would apply to guilt by association given that incident. it's a fair point to say if one person said something heinous, it is not put upon the entire crowd. that said, i think there's polling data, strong polling data that shows racial attitudes of people who identify with the tea party are consistently not the racial attitudes i think are enlightning. >> i think it's about motivation if it's true. was the tea party motivated, even in part by this subtle racist thing. i am not a conservative and i don't see the evidence with that in the same way as occupy wall street despite what we are seeing, is it fundamentally motivated by a middle class sense of a grievement that people are too rich. if that's the main thing, i w worry when the main problem for example, poor or working class people don't know how to have an existence. the education aspect interests me more than what goes on with people transferring from one bank to another. >> i want to go to break. after this, we're going to talk about the middle class and congress which is not middle class. that's my story of the week up after this. 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you need a staff to raise that kind of money. how do you pay that staff? it's where fortune comes in handy. it's hard to write a $100,000 check to hire a staff or take out a loan against your multimillion dollar home. once your operation is up and running, you have to find people to contribute, people who can max out or give the maximum, $2500 to your campaign. keep in mind, one-half of 1% see this pie chart, max out to a candidate. you are not likely to find these donors bumping into them at the grocery store. this is where it becomes helpful to have a social network that includes e-mail addresses and phone numbers of hundreds of high network individuals. in other words, it's helpful to have a lot of rich friends. you know who is most likely to have rich friends? a rich person. the point is the entire system of campaign finance selects for rich people. as a non-rich person, raising the kind of money you need to raise to be competitive is nearly impossible. when we think of the effects of inequality and the finance system, we tend to focus on the ways big money interest can purchase policy by donating to candidates and hiring armies of lobbyists. my time in washington taught me the subtle cultural effects of being around wealthy people all the time are just as even more pronishs. if you feel your elected body, members of 1%, it's not surprising they provide policy beneficial to the 1%. imagine what this country would look like if 40% of congress were union members. a big part of the reason the 99% feels underrepresented is because, well, they are. joining us now at the table, i have my friend rob johnson an international investor. he was the managing director of a fund management and served on international monetary reform. rob, thanks for coming here. >> my pleasure. >> you are here straight from europe. you were at the g-20. before we get to the g-20, which is why i brought you here, your going to untang the greece mess for us. you told somebody about the move your money. >> that's right. the or gins of move your money, i was at a dinner with arianna huffington. my wife alexis who is an african-american supporter and myself. these people are frustrated because you get nothing on deposits, 31% on your credit card and they use the profits for bonuses and lobbying to make things worse for you. you have to feel empowered. at that dinner, nobody felt that -- i mean the fed discount window can fill the hole of what leaves. but you feel better not contributing. >> did everyone move their money? >> all of us? >> yeah. >> i already had. i qualified. the others did. several foundations. >> that was a good question. i would have lied if i was ron, if i hadn't moved my money. >> i got staff, everything i was on a board of, everybody joined in very quickly. >> the reason i wanted you to come in here, we have been following greece closely and the euro zone. let's set this up for people who haven't been paying attention. the problem is greece has a lot of debt. they have so much debt and paying such high interest rates on the debt, they cannot afford it. not afford it in the vague abstract way that conservatives talk about the u.s. as in there isn't enough cash sitting in the treasury to pay the interest on their debt. they are up against the wall. >> they have gone over the water fall. >> yes. so the solution to that, there is a first round solution to that, say okay, you need to get your deficit under control. a series of very harsh austerity measures passed in the spring. a cut to public work force. a freeze on pay for three years, i think. raising taxes from 22% to 30s, think. very big crush. it's reduced gdp growth in the country. the economy is being squeezed and pushed and pushed. the greeks are no more able to make the payments now when it happened six months ago. now, we are waiting -- we are on groundhog day and this is the second day everybody wakes up with a greek crisis and they have another program. the french and german's get together abdomen guarantee some of the debt. the creditors who own the bonds, they are owned money are going to take a haircut. they are only going to get 50 cents on the dollar. the greeks are going to go through another crushing period of austerity. >> yes. >> faced with that austerity, the prime minister of greece, george papandreou is a great man. he says i don't want to have the opposition throw stones at me. i want a mandate for this. everyone panicked. europe panicked. they said no, no the deal is off. no help. we'll cut off the payments to you if you let people vote on the package. what did you make of that development? >> i think we all have to laugh a little bit. the place where democracy originated is now terrified of resorting to democracy. papandreou had no choice. he would have failed in a no confidence vote, technically. hen he put the referendum up and scared everybody, it brought them together. >> just so they understand. by threatening, he convinced the opposition. okay, okay. we'll work with you to pass this. nobody wants it. >> the dirty secret is everybody is terrified of what happens when something decides the state of nevada goes bust because it propagates between the international banking system. >> you were talking that it might as well be greece for all intents and purposes, it might as well be the 51st state of how it affects us. >> it affects your front yard. the musical chair game of someone can't pay means everybody is scared. somebody is holding the bag and they can't find out where it is. all the investors back away from all the banks. you get a synchronized shot. everybody freaks out. it deflates and depresses the united states. >> let's talk after the break about how to avoid that. what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪ ...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details. doing laundry is classic problem solving. i mean, kids make stains, i use tide boost to super charge our detergent. boom -- the clothes look amazing, and daddy? 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[ male announcer ] how are we going to make this season better than the last? how about making it brighter. more colorful. ♪ and putting all our helpers to work? so we can build on our favorite traditions by adding a few new ones. we've all got garlands and budgets to stretch. and this year, we can keep them both evergreen. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. here's a bright idea. trade in any light string and get up to 5 bucks off the latest christmas led's. ♪ ♪ ♪ walk, little walk ♪ small talk, big thoughts ♪ gonna tell them all just what i want ♪ ♪ i said don't stop, don't stop ♪ ♪ don't stop talking to me [ male announcer ] the most legroom per dollar of any car in america. the all-new nissan versa sedan. from $10,990. innovation upsized. innovation for all. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes joined this morning by sam of the excellent, excellent podcast majority report and ring of fire, writer and activist michaela angela davis of "essence" magazine, and "up" veteran, also at new republic and the root.com. so, big story of the week, maybe you have noticed. a few hours after we got off the air last week -- last sunday, actually, news broke herman cain was sexually harassed two women while he was head of the national restaurant association in late 1990s. cain denied them. >> i was the pollster for the national restaurant association when herman cain was the head of it. and i tell you i was actually around a couple of times where this happened. and anyone involved with the restaurant association knew they was going to come up. i knew the woman that was being talked about. she was wants to come forward and talk about it. if she talks about it i think it will be the end of his campaign. >> so, that was not herman cain, as you might noticed, that was a republican pollster who essentially worked for the national restaurant association who gave that interview basically saying, look, i was working there at the time. now, this is a guy who's a perry supporter and said, look, i was working there at the time and i knew they was going to come out. if it comes out entirely, this is going to be bad for him. this precipitated herman cain's campaign accusing the perry campaign of being behind it. we -- the facts we have confirmed, two women that received settlement and a third reported this week by the ap who did not have a settlement but also accused cain. cain's story about this has changed a bit over the -- over the course of the week. here let me now play you his first denial, the thing he first said when he was confronted about this. >> i was accused of sexual harassment, falsely accused, i might add. i was falsely accused of sexual harassment. and when the charges were brought, as the leader of the organization, i recused myself and allowed my general counsel and my human resource officer to deal with the situation. and it was concluded after a thorough investigation that it had no basis. as far as a settlement, i am unaware of any sort of settlement. i hope it wasn't for much because i didn't do anything. but the fact of the matter is, i'm not aware of a settlement that came out of that accusation. so, as a result, i have never sexually harassed anyone. those accusations are totally false. >> the total for that settlement was $40 billion, so i'm not quite sure how -- i'm joking, of course. it would be funny to be like, i have no idea. i hope it wasn't a lot. actually, it bankrupted national restaurant association. so, the next day cain's top campaign adviser, mark block, who you know from this, this guy -- ♪ i am america one voice ♪ >> mark block, are you america. he got on stage at a press event in washington, d.c. and he proclaimed herman cain's innocence. >> mr. cain has never sexually harassed anybody, period, end of story. >> well, it's not the end of story, guys. so, it kept going this week. alease, what do you think of this development? is this a plot by us? >> it was a godsend for rick perry. remarks were quite strange. >> oh yes. >> which hasn't gotten much coverage because herman cain has really stolen -- >> that's totally true. >> it did happen at a very convenient time for perry. not sure who's involved in this. i'll be very interested in who did get this story out there. but i think with the herman cain, my first instinct was, you know, maybe it's going to be one or -- one of two things. it's going to be an isolated incident where it really was a woman taking advantage or it is going to be a serial repeat offense. and as of now, i don't know. we'll see how many more keep -- you know, keep being added to the line-up. my opinion -- >> you're leaning towards the latter now. >> sexual harassment is usually -- i mean, i have a black and white view. it's not something a man does once usually. i mean, you look at other politicians who have been troubled in this area. usually it's not one isolated, one-off incident. >> i should stipulate situations like this put us in a slightly uncomfortable situations for those that work in cable news. we don't know the actual specific fact pattern. we know what has been confirmed and reported out, which is there were two settlements. we don't -- and accusation is not proof. i should stipulate that up front. you know, it certainly does seem like there's more than nothing. >> the man should know at this point that he can't deny something that happened, allowing -- suppose maybe these things did happen. he can't deny it. we've just been through anthony weiner. >> who's that? >> remember that guy? all cain had to do is say, yes, these things happened, i crossed a line, i wasn't aware. culture morys were changing at the time, he probably didn't know what he was doing was offensive, i'm guessing. he should realize, i did this, i'm beyond it and apologize for it. instead there's this stunning stupidity, this lack of context as if he invented some robot yesterday and doesn't quite understand american social context where he thinks he can get away with it and deny it -- >> that's my favorite quote ever. >> i have to say, i think there's another explanation that -- i mean, they had ten days' notice this story was coming out. >> right, politico. >> and if you look at the pattern of the way they've been running this campaign, if you expect the premise it's a real campaign for presidency. >> top of the polls. >> yeah. >> let's play along. >> exactly. >> but look at the attitude in the smoking man video. i think they said this is going to be a good way for us to run against the press. nobody in the conservative movement has gone broke, let's say, not -- having enemies in the press. and i think for them, to a certain extent, there was, we can get mileage off looking like we're blindsided by it. >> what do you think? >> when elise said this is good news for perry, and it is. it's like the gop is doing better than bravo in producing reality stars. like, he's the new nene, herman cain. >> that reference went over my head. is? >> from "the real housewives of atlanta". >> we're good. i'm resetting. >> it's like, whose drama is at the top of the charts. they're creating these reality stars. so, this is what watching herman cain's candidacy is like for me. it's like the real gop. >> the real gop. >> well, it's really crazy. >> it's interesting to me that what we've seen is the first polls that have emerged in the wake of the scandal have him essentially unhurt. he's still at the top of the polls. his campaign is up. >> is up. he's up. >> he's made -- his campaign keeps putting out press releases about how much money they have raised off this. >> because he's a brother from another mother of the coke brothers. did you see that? i mean -- >> yes, that's what he said yes. >> menstrual show in reverse. i'm a brother from another mother -- >> menstrual show in reverse. >> i've never seen anything quite like it. >> i want to talk about -- i want to talk about the sort of racial angle of this. we have the fantastic scholar, kimberly crenshaw on satellite. let's take a break and come back and she'll join us. [ snoring ] [ thunder crashes ] [ snoring ] [ thunder crashes ] [ snoring ] [ male announcer ] vicks nyquil cold and flu. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever, best sleep you ever got with a cold... medicine. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] vicks dayquil. defeats 5 cold & flu symptoms. ♪ confidence, with depend in color. now available in gray. looks and fits like underwear. same great protection. depend. good morning. great day. do you think that race, being a strong black conservative, has anything to do with the fact that you've been so charged? if so, do you have any evidence to support that? >> i believe the answer is yes. but we do not have any evidence to support it. relative to the left, i believe race is a bigger driving factor. i don't think it's a driving factor on the right. this is just based upon our speculation. >> i kind of like the honesty of that answer, saying, yes, do i think race is a fact but i don't have any evidence. joining us to talk more about this situation is kimberly crenshaw, law professor at columbia university and ucla, co-founder of african-american policy forum. professor crenshaw, great to have you. good morning. >> good morning. >> so, what do you think -- when you just were a part of a -- you were just part of a conference on anita hill 20 years later. that was the last time that these -- this crazy intersecondsalty to use a word i believe you coined in scholarship appeared in this issue of sex and gender and power with race in this incredibly intense way. how -- what are you making of this story as it unfolds this week? >> well, i'm absolutely astonished about how much has changed and how much has stayed the same. let's go with what stayed the same. the ability to make a racial argument out of an allegation thats on sentenceably until we know better does not raise any racial claims is amazing, especially coming from someone from herman cain and his defenders, who traditionally have rejected racial arguments. who would otherwise call this playing the racial card. here you have him saying i think race has something to do with it. i can't tell you how. we don't have any evidence. but trust us, race has something to do with it. the fact he's able to do this actually goes all the way back to clarence thomas stepping into the hearings. we were all there. we had no idea what i was going to say, how he was going to respond to this. the last thing most of us thought he was going to do is wrap himself up in a history of racial discrimination, of lynching, no less, when he'd been a person who had repudiated all of this discourse about discrimination. but, you know, nothing sort of breathes a civil rights activist until desperation hits. so, that's essentially what we saw work 20 years ago. it's just astonishing that it's working again today. >> you drew a parallel -- you mention the clarence thomas and the famous line he gave at the anita -- at his own confirmation testimony, that he said it was a high-tech lynching. throughout the week there was the obvious subtext of the comparison between -- of the anee anita hill and this for several reasons. it was claimed sexual harassment against a prominent black conservative. that subtext was made by the cain campaign which cut this ad, which i want to play for everyone which sort of blew my mind. >> they can't argue with herman cain on the merits. they can't argue with him on policy so what do they do? >> now we're getting the high-tech lynching of a beautiful man, herman cain. >> what is known as the main stream media goes for the ugliest racial stereotypes they can to attack a black conservative. >> they put him down. and that's what liberals do. they can't talk about the issues, so they hit below the belt. >> i think he needs to get off the symbolic crack pipe. >> so, i would only assume that he is either socially ignorant or playing games to get votes. >> it's very hard to comment on somebody who is so denied intelligence. >> this is a circus. it's a national disgrace. it is a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way dane to think for themselves and it is a message that unless you cow tou to an old order you'll be lynched, destroyed, caricatured rather than hung from a tree. >> wow. >> that sound is incredible to see again, just in how sort of breath takingly forward it is in making that explicit comparison. >> absolutely. there are two different trajectories that kamz out of the clarence thomas/anita hill hearing. one is the direction that gender discourse is gone. that's been pretty positive. we understand that sexual harassment is a serious workplace matter. that is discrimination. consequently, most organizations, like the national restaurant association, will now have rules and training against it. the direction of race discourse has gone somewhat differently. when clarence thomas was able to denounce this entire hearing essentially as a racist effort to rein in free-thinking african-americans and after all the jaws were dropped, it ended up working, it opened up a whole new terrain for african-american conservatives to defend themselves against almost any criticism. so, you know, for the group that constantly denounces playing the race card, this is a race card that is firmly in their hand and they play it every chance they get. the fact that they even can play it when they also seem to be pointing inside the party to the perry campaign, that these are not mutually exclusive -- >> those are mutually exclusive of the crime, yes. let me say one more thing and then our panel is eager to talk to you. aren't liberals also on the horns of that dilemma in the sense that if -- if he's a liberal you're committed to the notion to not dismiss claims of racial -- as outrate as playing the race card, you take them seriously that racial anamiss and bias can work through crazy politics in all kinds of ways. don't liberals then have a responsibility not to be dismisses ive of herman cain when he makes -- when he comes forward with a claim like that? >> of course we want to take racism seriously. but just think about it. how many times has anyone ever been able to go on tv and say, i think race has something to do with it. i can't tell you who, i can't tell you how, i can't tell you where, but race has something to do with it. that's -- that's essentially playing the race card, the exact kind of thing liberals and african-americans have been accused of. what we're concerned about is the double standard. and i think the double standard points in the direction of conservatives being able to wrap any number of misdeesd around the claim of playing the race card. >> and this is the joker card of the race card, because this whole, you know, black when convenient is really disturbing. because black without the burden. you know, it's when it works for them in that narrative. but what -- what have they been doing historically to elevate the lives of black people? it's so -- it's so -- do you find that disturbing this, okay, i'm black now because i'm against the wall? >> and it's selective, as you point out. but what i think is more dramatic about it, it turns history on its head. the idea that herman cain or clarence thomas is -- shares the legacy of thousands of people who were found hanging from trees, because they challenged a system of racial dominance, not because they were supporters of it. the idea that, you know, those people who are basically saying, let's accommodate, let's not talk about race discrimination, that they would be lynched. just turns tragedy on its head. >> i find -- >> i find this quite frankly upsetting. why are we still talking about this and herman cain in terms of race and it's happened all throughout this -- >> but he said -- >> he's a accomplished man. he has many merits he should be judged upon besides race. >> but he -- >> did he not say -- >> but by this point why is he -- even before this happened, you know, the clarence -- you know, now -- but people talking about, he's an uncle tom, menstrual show, i think it's offensive. why can he not just be a conservative man in america? >> what i find particularly offensive about it was the fact we're talking about our blacks, their blacks. >> which is too preposterous for me to mention. >> dave chappelle comedy, we'll put your blacks together and our blacks together and run a race together. that's what conservative politics have reduced race discourse to. it's important for us to reclaim the idea there are some moments where race discrimination is important and we teed need to t about it and other moments where people are pointing to race to defend a claim that has nothing to do with race. >> john has something he wants to respond to after this break. we'll come back and talk more about this. i wouldn't do that. pay the check? no, i wouldn't use that single miles credit card. hey, aren't you... shhh. i'm researching a role. today's special... the capital one venture card. you earn double miles on every purchase. impressive. chalk is a lost medium. if you're not earning double miles... you're settling for half. was that really necessary? 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we're told tyler perry, rappers be funny, it's menstrual. he was being funny as georgian 65-year-old black man he was. in a way he's blacker in that way than obama. he wasn't trying to play it down. so, he was being a very black person. now, this business about it being a black thing that he gets accused of sexual harassment is perfectly absurd. he was not keeping it quiet that he wasn't white. and i liked it at first. >> i want to -- i'm glad you're here. you've -- the cultural figure of the black conservative is a fascinating and contested one. particularly i think in the modern incarnation in which racial politics are so polarized. >> yes. but hero on the right often because it's a hero on the right for a bunch of reasons. it expiates because herman cain is leading our field. some is good natured intent to transcend race but you were cast as the role of the black conservative for much of your public life and career, less so now. what is the sort of -- i don't know. what is the psychological experience of that like, if that's not a strange question to ask? >> no, no, it's not strange at all. it's assumed that if you don't subscribe to a certain orthodox, then you are either naive, just basic facts about the nature of poverty and institutional racism you don't know, or you're evil. and i think there's a natural human tendency to propose elle more likely. there's this actual notion -- it took me a few years to understand people thought this is who i was. my friends and family know me. people thought that i understood the orthodoxy, but i was going out in public and saying there's no racism and talking down black people in order to make money. i gradually learned people thought that i was trying to get speaking fees saying that. and smart people genuinely believe that must be who you are and you're called judas, a bad apple as harry bellefonte called herman cain because they can't imagine there's another way of looking at things besides the notion that when black people have problems, it always or almost always due to institutional racism. i can put myself in those people's heads but that's why the black conservative is so vilified because it's assumed you could not possibly have views significantly to the right of, say, cornell west and be a moral, intelligent person. >> kimberle, i'll let you respond. >> there's so many reasons why there's such debate about black conservatives. and i don't doubt john's experience but have i to kad one of the reasons why has to do with the specious use of using the race card, the clarence thomas event we talked about, just shows the selectivity of black neoconservatives. sometimes they're making claims about color blindness at the same time performing racial text and performing racial defenses. one of the things that just, i think, is one part of the way they're received is it feels like hypocrisy. more importantly, i think the problem is it deflects us from what's going on. the same way clarence thomas is playing the race card deflected the conversation away from sexual harassment, the fact that african-american women. were the first to start a sexual harassment claim, this is part of what's going on and this is why race can sometimes be more object curie i object curing. >> sam? >> along that point, what's interesting is to see if we do ultimately find out if these women come forward or release -- >> i think for them it's inevitable the names will come out. >> and it will be a game-changer. >> yes, this is the interesting question, what race is. >> i'll be very interested how that -- what kind of reaction that brings from those people who are more inclined to support cain now, you know, in -- >> i'll have a two-hour show -- >> i think it will be difficult for him. as i said before, i'm not making an argument that race has nothing to do with how people will interpret this story. i think if this story comes out and turns out some complainants are, in fact, white that will create a whole another historical narrative that will be hard to step away from. more importantly, i think actually hearing what he's actually accused of doing -- right now it's just conceptual, sexual harassment. we know after anita hill came forward, one of the people believed her more and more as time passed is that they were able to hear from other people who had similar experiences in their own workplace. so, when women actually come forward, and it's told what actually happened, i think that will shift the underlying discussion significantly. >> i would like to throw a counterfactual. if president obama had a single instance of mild shadiness, it would have been out there in the press. and i think he would have been attacked pretty tough. >> yep. >> so herman cain, at the same time, i think we should look at it somewhat through that lens. and i think president obama is absolutely 100% clean. i think if there was anything out there, they would have found it and they would have gone after it. so why would the same not be true what for herman cain? >> wait. >> everybody would have said it was race. >> right. >> take that one step forward. what you're saying is people would defend him using these racial terms if he were accused. >> well, you know -- >> that's a fair point. >> say something to what john said. john, you are a sane black conservative. >> thank you. >> and what we're seeing -- no, but what we're seeing -- >> the comedy, you can feel it here. >> some type of insanity. what's encourage being these type of conversations is that there's not enough diversity inside of diversity. meaning there are more black people now on television, with the mike, talking. clarence thomas at the time was the first time we actually humanized a black conservative. and anita hill was so smart, too. so, what you're seeing is more black people and seeing that we're not monolithic. >> and i think so -- >> there's as much insanity on the black left as the black right. and stalk about -- >> it's about humanity. we are starting to humanize people of color -- >> and i think -- >> -- that were not humanized before. >> one of the most fascinating and one of the great legacies of the presidency of barack obama in a cultural respect, we find this in the show, we say this in the meeting, the show comes back when you're talking about the through line of politics, race is -- you know, and it's, you know, boys caused the problems of the 20th century, and we're in the 21st century -- >> ken burns said that's the america of story. >> on this show i find we come back to it time and again. but i think the presidency of barack obama has produced a situation in which some dialogue, obviously, is awful and calls upon all sorts of terrible stereotypes, et cetera, but a lot gives us an opportunity to have conversations much more frankly, much less at the margin of taboo than we had before. and i think that's a great thing. kimberle crenshaw -- >> i'm sorry, i have to disagree. >> i'll let you disagree and then have i to go to break. >> well, all i'll say is that it's a complicated legacy because many people see barack obama as representing post-racialism. so, almost any conversation has to slide in by saying, well, i know we have a black president but having a black president really doesn't tell us much about the character of race in american society. >> oh, it tells us plenty. nobody claims we're racial. we're just less racialized than we used to be. that's significant. >> i would say we're ee quully racialized. you can have different racial orders. >> i'm going to give you each five seconds to litigate whether we're post-racial. i'm kidding. law professor at columbia university and ucla, co-founder of after-american policy reform. we'll have you back. thank you for your time this morning. we'll be right back after this. prego?! but i've been buying ragu for years. 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[ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. so, we've been talking about herman cain because it's endlessly fascinating in my humble opinion as the host of a cable news show. and i want to now zoom out for a second and discuss how we talk about politicians and sex scandals, in quotes, because i think we have a very -- we have a set of contradictory and conflicting moral impulses and that gets mixed in with puritanical revulsion, and the result is -- it's unclear what the benchmark is and what the framework by which we evaluate the sins of politicians is. it seems very tangled to me up. start getting comparisons anthony weiner and bill clinton who did very different things, and i think in terms of the actual violation was really different. you know, having sex with an intern in your office versus sending a photo to someone. and then we end up talking -- the other thing we do, and we're doing it in the case of cain, because we have this tangled set of intuitions that no one has a sort of communal set of what's good and bad and how we rank them. we talk about the meta sin of denying it or disassembling or not being straight with the story. and then you get these, i think, straight outcome. my favorite example in 2003 the los angeles times published that arnold schwarzenegger had a -- that he groped women. >> you said groping? >> touching someone against their will is sexual assault. schwarzenegger did not lie about it or deny it. he came forward and said this. >> but at the same time, i have to tell you that i always say that wherever there's smoke, there's fire. that is true. so what i want to say to you is, yes, that i have behaved badly sometimes. yes, it is true. i was on rowdy movie sets and i have done things that which i thought was playful and now i recognize that i have offended people. >> rowdy movie sets. >> rowdy. >> but, the thing that was so amazing, and you mentioned arnold schwarzenegger at the top of this hour. schwarzenegger was able to be like, my bad, y'all, and then it was, no longer an issue. >> i think he was able to get away with that for two reasons. hollywood, people expect -- >> people think rowdy movie sets, all groping each other. >> and then he came out with it and he controlled the story line. unlike herman cain, who's had his story confused over this entire week, and anthony weiner, had he come out early and he was like, you know, i've got this weird thing, i haven't cheated but -- and part of the -- >> you're right about that on weiner. >> it was on freaky and our first internet sex scandal so imploded -- >> well, the mark foley ims. >> oh, yes, the ims. >> i think it is -- i think he gets a pass because it's hollywood. i mean, i do think like we -- >> and the foreign accent helped, too. >> but he had to dispose of the character we perceive him of in the movie, he had to dispose of -- you know, there was no continuum. i was an action star. now i'm a governor. that doesn't follow the same way that i was a lobbyist and now i'm a politician. you expect a different -- >> i have a question to the men because, you know, as a woman and as someone that identifies as a feminist, this is a male narrative. because women are not in the positions of power in the way that men are to even have these scandals. so, what do you see the connection between power and sex and your feeling entitled to grope because you have power and what that -- >> i do think -- >> i'm not familiar with that. >> i would say, i was always sort after mazed in washington how pat trriarical washington i. when you go on the hill, it's a lot of powerful men in suits. >> yes. >> and it's a lot of young, pretty women. and that is -- that is a dynamic -- >> powerful men in suits hire young, pretty women. >> and there's this very intense, intense, i think, loaded sort of patriarichal power, air that hangs over washington i find very gender aggressive, very strange and i think it makes it very hard for women operating in a place like national restaurant association or the hill. i'm not saying this whether cain did or not. i'm talking about the basic facts -- as ron suskin said, in the obama white house. >> very disturbing. >> but do you find -- did you find -- >> i thought the bush white house was incredibly female-friendly. you can look at women in leadership roles in -- >> karen hoouughes. >> condi rice. i can think -- >> but that doesn't always transfer down, right? i mean, did you feel like official washington had this very -- >> separate of -- i think such an old boys culture. >> sure. when she did that mantra, she said it over and over again, like white men, white men, white men. someone has to tart to change the conversation. we know she wasn't electable and she knew -- i was always disappoint neither hillary nor president obama acknowledged shirley chisum in their journey because she's fierce. she was saying -- >> she ran -- >> first black woman. >> there was a time not so long ago when one made jokes about a certain man being all hands. >> yes. >> that's what sexual harassment is. i always thought it was a civil rights miracle that over the past 20 years we've learned to call that something and consider it socially prescribed, which is why it's so backwards that the cain people and his supporters are acting as if it's no big deal or it couldn't possibly be. they seem like people from the 1950s movie. >> we've all watched "mad men" and you think, wow, the country used to exist under conditions of essentially gender apartheid. those were the conditions of the country and it was accepted -- >> and that's being a black woman. every time you dip it in race -- >> and teddy draper was sufficienting, too. >> the way we're discussing this specific sexual harassment claim, these women, i -- i think they wanted to move on with their lives, the women in question. and the fact they're being called to come out of -- you know, they're being asked not to be anonymous -- >> one of them -- my understanding of the reporting is that the lawyer for one of them said his client would like to be released, would like to come forward. >> lawrence o'donnell offered to pay. if he's going to take on that very hefty legal bill, i think that, you know, she should go. >> what do we know now we didn't know when the week began? my answer after this. what's better than gold ? free gold ! we call that hertz gold plus rewards. you earn free days, free weeks and more fast. that's a plus. upgrade your ride. that's a plus. rewards with no blackout dates so you can redeem anytime. and it's easy to redeem your points online. already a gold member ? just select gold plus rewards in your profile and start rewarding yourself now. just go to hertzgoldplusrewards.com to join. hertz gold plus rewards. journey on. ♪ [ male announcer ] what is the future of fuel? the debate is over. ♪ lexus hybrid drive technology is designed to optimize any fuel source on the planet. even those we don't use yet. because when you pursue perfection, you don't just engineer a future-proof hybrid system. you engineer amazing. ♪ just a second i'll tell you what i didn't know when the week began. right now it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." what's coming up? >> a legendary voice silenced this morning. andy rooney, for years on "60 minutes" has died. a look at his most memorable moments ahead. new word on 2012 strategy for president obama because it's almost one year out from the election. we'll take a look at what it will take for the president to win. iphone 4s, one of the most hyped aspect going down. left a lot of folks frustrated. what happened there? we'll take a look. back to you. >> thanks. what do we know now we didn't know last week? well, we know that 80,000 jobs were created in the month of october. and the unemployment rate dipped from 9.1% to 9%. we know that not only are members of congress insulated from the abysmal economy but much richer than average americans. we suspect this plays a crucial role in producing a legislative body, more specifically a republican party, that continues to ignore the jobs crisis. we know that at least three women have made allegations that herman cain sexually harassed them during his time running the national restaurant association. he know allegations aren't proof but 20 years after anita hill's testimony life for these women will be hell after their names are leaked. we know cain is in trouble because nothing the press loves more than a scandal that involves a politician and sexual impropriety and we know collective intu tigs are tangled and contradictory but that consent and nonexploitation of unequal power relationships is the bed rock ethical principle we should keep our eye on. greece won't be putting proposed package of further austerity policies to a referendum because we know there's a whole lot about the situation we don't know. like, for instance, the total risk that u.s. banks face in the event of a greek default. we know that's pretty damn terrifying. thanks to an internal romney campaign, the cokhs brothers are the tea party and he considers them his own brothers from another mother, a figure of speech but given how crazy the cain campaign has been so far, who knows. we know the building trades union wins award for occupy wall street message by marshalling the language of the 99% in support of the key stone pipeline heavily pushed by oil and gas industries including aforementioned koch brothers. we know it's a testament to the force of the 99% message that everyone these days seems to want a piece of it. we already knew that elizabeth warren was a bad-ass but watching her graciously and firmly talk down a tea party heckler, we know she's a very cool customer. >> we're sorry to hear you've been out of work. also very sorry that the recent jobs bill would have brought 22,000 jobs to massachusetts did not pass. >> regarding said heckler, we now know if you're going to show up to an event and call someone a socialist whore, you should have a better exit strategy than this dude who darted for the back door only to find it was locked. thanks to a new report from the department of energy's inspector general, we know the much maligned folks at doe did a remarkable job in dispersing $35.2 billion in stimulus funds with only 0.07% of that money recovered from traud fraud. we know lady gaga has along with the macarthur foundation, launched a new foundation to work on antibullying and tolerance among teens and we know being as free as one's hair is something all teenagers can aspire to. 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[ gigi ] try nice 'n easy anti-flat, always dimensional. in one simple step, get tones and highlights built into every shade with nice 'n easy. you know what else is early? medicare open enrollment. now through december 7th. can i stick with my old medicare plan? sure! or find a new plan with better coverage, less cost, or both. medicare plans give you free cancer screenings and wellness visits and 50% off on brand-name prescriptions when you're in the doughnut hole. it's part of the healthcare law. so it's time to look, compare... and choose the right plan for you. learn more at 1-800-medicare or medicare.gov. i want to find out what my guests now know they didn't know when the week began. sam, what do you know? >> based upon what happened in nevada, i know that if you pass a law that starts in october and tell banks you need to sign an avid, that you actually own this mortgage and can go in and begin foreclosure procedures, they will back off. they went in -- in september they had 3600 foreclosure starts in nevada. in october 116. it dropped 95% once that law -- >> because they passed a law saying you have to have the documentation. >> right. have you to prove you own this mortgage and they know they can't prove it. >> that's a crazy concept. what do you now know? >> i know chris hayes is from the boogie down bronx. >> that's so true. that's true. >> that he knows the difference between a pound and a fist pump. that's big. but also i learned that we have gone down to 26 in the industrialized world in terms of education. that is so -- we were at 25 -- >> we dropped another notch. >> we dropped another notch. you said something earlier that that was one of your biggest concerns, where we are in terms of education. that is our entire future. >> elise in. >> i learned the obama administration isn't going to give us the idea about why we decided to kill a kit zen abroad. i want to see that legal reasoning. i think this drone issue is huge. >> i agree with you. i, too, would like to see that about why we thought we could. john? >> i neu fund-raising notwithstanding, i think herman cain is over. i thought there was a chance we might see something unprecedented in terms of his staying power and possibly an interesting obama/cain contest. as of last week, for politico to give him ten days lead time and for him to think he could get beyond this shows he will be a punch line or a footnote. >> you can't goat pokimon and be a real contender. >> my thanks to sam of majority report, writer and activist michaela davis, elise, and john, the reporter and theroot.com. koomg up is "weekends with alex witt" and join us sunday for erin brock co-viovich and peter singer. until then you can find us at twitter. see you tomorrow. the employee of the month is... spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. it's hard for my crew to keep up with 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. 2% cash back. that's setting the bar pretty high. thanks to spark, owning my own business has never been more rewarding. 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