Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20180725

Going to hear from later on in the show in a couple of minutes. But then after i tell you why im approaching it this way today, we are going to bring those folks on. Theyll stay here for an highway for the rest of the hour. Thats fair warning. This is a slightly different way than we usually do things here at the Rachel Maddow show at this time and this be bat channel. It starts last week at the summit between President Trump and putin of russia. Can you believe that was only a week ago . That was only a week ago. There was a landmark moment in the question and answer period at the summit where the two the president s were asked questions by reporters and a reuters reporter named jeff mason stood up and asked a very direct and important question to Vladimir Putin. You probably remember this moment if you watched is the summit that day or if you watched any of the News Coverage thereafter. Just for the record, this is actually what happened in that moment. Options abound. And they all can be found in an whoipt legal. Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that . Translator yes, i did. Yes, i did because he talked about bringing the u. S. russia relationship back to normal. Okay, so that happened in real life in front of a room if you of people. It was covered live around the world. While this was happening, i had a flight i was supposed to catch that morning. I missed my flight and ended up driving a really long way during the whole press conference. I listened to the whole thing live on the radio as it happened. It was only a week ago. I heard it in my car. You saw it if you wanted the either the News Coverage thereafter or if you watched live. Pre reporter in the room there witnessed it. Lets just nail this down. Do this one more time. This time well put up the transcript of what happened right next to the q a. President putin, did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that. Yes, i did. Yes, i did. Because he talked about bringing the u. S. russia relationship back to normal. Heres the reason im trying to nail this down as a recognizable part of our lived, shared reality as humans. Just put the transcript up there again. This is the transcript of what you just saw happen at that press conference. Like if you look at a real transcript of what happened, this is it. President putin, did you want President Trump to win the election . Did you direct flew of your officials to do that, yes, i did, yes, i did because he talked about bringing the u. S. russia relationship back to normal. Thats the real transcript of what actually an happened. Now, as of right now, tonight, here is the official white house transcript of that same moment. You see that . In the white house transcript, look at what is missing. In the white house transcript weve still got president putins answer, yes, i did, yes, i did but the white house just dropped the question that he was actually answering there. The white house transcript has no reference tons jeff mason from reuters asking president putin, did you want President Trump to win the election. Thats not in the white house transcript. Now, yuri free mann was first to report on this anomaly right after it happened. The sometimes transcripts are wrong, very rarely on such a high profile simple thing. That moment probably got more immediate attention than anything else that happened in that remarkable q a with reporters. Its not unheard of for a white house transcript to be inaccurate. When that happens, theres sort of an informal process where reporters point out something thats wrong or something thats missing or mischaracterized in the transcript and the white house later makes a fix to the official transcript. It happens not all the time but it happens fairly frequently. Its not that big a deal. After this incorrect transcript came out, from the trump and putin summit with the question did you want President Trump to win the election, with that gone from the transcript, the atlantic published this criticism noting that the transcript was wrong and after the atlantic First Published this account, a lot of other news outlets picked it up pointed out that the white house transcript was wrong. The white house is apparently not correcting it. It is still incorrect tonight. The incorrect transcript dropping out the question when putin is asked if he wanted trump to win the election he said yes, yes, i did. The incorrect transcript still tands tonight. We can report tonight that the white house video of this exchange has also skillfully cut out that question from are the rioters reporter as if it didnt happen. So ill show you back to back here. Ill show you the real one first and what the white house posted online instead. Here first is the real one. Optioned abounds. And they all can be found. Did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that . Translator yes, i did. Yes, i did. Thats the real one. Now watch what the white house has posted online instead . Options abound. And they all can be found in an appropriate legal framework. Reporter and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that . Yes, i did. Yes, i did. They just dropped it out. First part of his question, president putin, did you want President Trump to win the election . They just dropped that out. What the white house has disappeared from the official u. S. Government record of that meeting both in print and in their video of the meeting is president putin answering in the affirmative when asked if he wanted trump to win the election. Just for kicks, if you want to check out the russian government version, of this, their transcript, their supposed transcript of this event in the russian transcript, jeff mason from reuters is not only doesnt ask his full question, jeff mason of reuters doesnt even exist in the russian transcript. See where that red arrow is . Theyve completely taken out that whole part of the q a where the reuters is reporter asked the question. At least the white house had the courtesy to leave in half the question. The russians just disappeared him all together. They just skip over that entire exchange. So a Critical Exchange deleted from the transcript, a reporters question edited out of videotape. The u. S. Government essentially following the kremlins playbook in maintaining something we all saw happen with our own eyes we all heard happen with our ears has nevertheless disappeared, right . Like owed political opponents being air brushed out of photos. Right . Its weird, right . Its creepy. Turns out it wasnt a mistake. Turns out it was on purpose. Well now today, we got the inevitable payoff, the next step from our president on this point. Now, if youve watched the show before, you might know i dont generally make a habit of reporting on the president s public pronouncements particularly those he makes on twitter. But with that said, i do think that you should see this from his twitter feed today. He said im very concerned that russia will be fighting very hard to have an impact on the upcoming election. Theyll be pushing very hard for the democrats. They definitely dont want trump. A week ago live on television in front of hundreds of in a room full of hundreds of reporters putin actually said i want trump. You know that to be true. You will know that to be true as long as you can remember it. But if the official record never says that happened, if its not there on the tape, if its not there in the transcripts, how fast before that disappears from what is supposed to be recorded history . Is a week fast enough . I mean, like i said i dont usually report on stuff the president says on twitter unlike other president s i feel like from a reporting perspective, from a news perspective, its sort of okay to mostly ignore things that this president says at least to the extent that youre looking to the president for any indication of factual things that happen in the world. He says a lot of untrue things so i try not to invest too much in any one thing he says and treat this Administration Like a show with the sound turned off. Watch what they do, not what they say. But in this case, this statement from the president , its obviously factually inaccurate. But its an important signal we are back in this part of the movie again. I imagine its just going to be like this for a while now, maybe through the election, maybe through the end of the mueller investigation. I dont know but this is a kind of political challenge we dont really train for as americans. The president disappearing evidence telling you that thing you actually saw live when they happened those things didnt really happen. Things you heard you didnt really hear them. Going beyond that to insist actually what you think you saw you actually saw the opposite. Putin stood there and said i wanted trump. Well tell you what he said is i wanted the democrats. I think in the specific the president disappearing the real information that putin said he preferred trump, the president announcing the opposite that is putin prefers democrats in the spec, that probably lays the groundwork for how trump intends to respond if the democrats win in november to stick a pin in that, but in a more general sense is, the president disappearing evidence that lays there in plain sight pretending that up is down and black is white, we should see this as americans as a signal broadly that this is garbage time again. We are back into a politically potent era of deliberate nonsense. Disinformation. Which is a form of information warfare. And its being waged against us. Heres another example. Tomorrow in washington, d. C. , we expect maria butina back in court for a hearing on her continued detention in jail while she awaits federal trial on charges she operated as a secret russian agent in this country run aginfluence operation on behalf of the russian government to affect the conservative movement and the Republican Party around the 2016 election. Just tonight, the judge in the case filed a detention memorandum why she should stay in the jail and not get bail while she awaits charges. In the case in many Court Filings ive learned the footnotes turned out to be the best part including this footnote here from the bottom of page 6. What this is about is an issue we pulled out of the tripped from her last Court Hearing about u. S. Person one, the unnamed u. S. Person who is described in the maria butina indictment as essentially her coconspirator in this scheme. U. S. Person one not named in the documents that have been filed in court in conjunction with this case but hes been widely reported to be a republican activist named Paul Erickson who is described either as her boyfriend or her fake boyfriend just for spying purposes depending on whether you ask the defense or the prosecution. We still havent seen any charges against mr. Erickson and thats interesting given the way described as essentially her coconspirator in the indictment. We heard reference in that hearing a couple days ago and the judge confirms in this footnote that Paul Erickson may himself be the subject of a federal investigation. Now, this is intriguing, right . You got this new federal indictment in the butina case, essentially a collusion indictment. Youve got a russian citizen indicted and in jail a u. S. Person described as a coconspirator in her scheme who is according to discussions in court apparently he is the subject of a federal investigation of had his own. And according to whats happened in court in the butina case thus far his purported girlfriend apparently offered to help investigators in their investigation of the guy who was supposedly her boyfriend. Even though prosecutors say he really wasnt. So its definitely intriguing about this case. Its potentially important in terms of undering this case. If you were intrigued by this information about butina and her alleged boyfriend and him being an alleged coconspirator and the subject of another investigation, it might make you want to look up more information on these two characters. Well, their Wikipedia Pages have been scrubbed clean. The daily beast tonight has a great report up on this detailing dos of edits to both of the Wikipedia Pages for butina and Paul Erickson dropping all information about allege ties toot russian government, alleged efforts to broke ker meetings between trump and putin during the campaign, reported criminal history and Business History between them, references to investigative reporting about russian money potentially had funneled through the nra, all removed. And the beauty of Something Like wikipedia is has regenerative power once somebody mounts an effort to the make real information go away, other people are likely to reinstate thought real information. There has been a diligent effort online to submarine all of that information about this accused russian agent who tonight sits in jail. As well as the american hon allegedly helped her. The daily beast reports at least some of the edits to these pages were made from an account that was maintained on the russian language version of wikipedia. And now that were humming a theme, consider this. A few days ago, President Trump sent out a deceptively edited old clip of Hillary Clinton that was taken from russian state tv. This is from 2010, an interview from when she was secretary of state. Do you see the water mark in the upper arent corner . That is the logo of channel 1 russia which is a russian state tv network. Heres that same water mark again in the upper right on this broadcast of patriotic russian anthems being played over pictures of the kremlin. I wonder who dubbed that Hillary Clinton interview out of the archives of obscure russian state television. I wonder who gave it toot president for him to send out on his twitter feed a few days ago . Once he sent out that the clip from russian state television, a pro trump conservative media outlet and sputnik news from the kremlin they both gleefully andplified what the president had done on twitter with this tensecond clip. They both used word for word almost the exact same headline to amplify and further spread what the president had done. The one on the right is a protrump conservative media outlet that has been given a White House Press redengs by this president on the left side of your screen. Thats actual russian propaganda from russian state media. Same headline. This is garbage time. This is deliberate nonsense time. But heres ars indication that this isnt just small stuff and transparent propaganda and disappearing facts we all know are true. Its the most serious stuff in the world, too. Go back to the putin trump summit from last week. In addition to the two the interacting with reporters at that conference, there was also the oneonone meeting that happened between putin and trump for which our president specifically asked that no other u. S. Officials be present because no other u. S. Officials were present, we have idea what was agreed to by our president in that meeting. He still made no public account of what happened in that meeting, what he might have agreed to or what was discussed. Russia, however, keeps making new announcements about all the things they say trump agreed to in that meeting. And, of course, theres no way of factually countering anything they might assert about what might have been discuss order what trump might have agreed to or not. Its interesting to note the white house so far hasnt tried to contest anything russia has asserted what happened in that meeting. They havent be pushed back even a little bit. Now tonight its taken a more serious turn. For the past few days, the Russian Military made repeated statements that following the putin trump summit theyre ready to get to work with the u. S. Military on the new plan that was just agreed to by the russian president and the american president on the issue of syria. Now, russia, of course, supports the syrian dictator. Were supposedly against him. Now since the summit, the Russian Military keeps saying that theres some new agreement about our military and the Russian Military now being on the same side in syria. And they keep saying theyre eager to get to work with our military and implementing that new agreement. What is this new agreement . We have no idea. Central command, centcom is the u. S. Militarys headquarters in the middle east. The commandsder of centcom said after the trump putin summit he had received no new orders from the president whether the u. S. Military is ordered to do anything differently in syria than what theyve been doing. Now in an interview, the same commander in fact expressed some concern about these assertions from the Russian Military which indicate that they seem to think that our two militaries are now pulling on the same side in that conflict. General joseph foedal telling abc in an interview i would want to make sure this isnt something we stepped into lightly. Im not recommending that. That would be a pretty big step at this point. Talking about working with the Russian Military in syria. Im not recommending that. That would be a pretty big step. Well now tonight in response to those comments from the americas top military commander in the middle east, the russian government has unleashed an attack on that general. On this American General the head of centcom, the minister of defense putting out a statement say with his statements general votal discredited the official position of his Supreme Commander in chief. Which means russia now claims to know the official position of americas Supreme Commander in chief even while the u. S. Military doesnt. Whatever else you think about all this other garbage and disinformation, disappearing of known fantastics and this nonsense, as of tonight, russia is using whatever happened last week between our president and theirs to split the u. S. President and his top military commanders to try and break certainty in the u. S. Chain of command. I dont mean that in a metaphorical sense, i mean literally the military chain of command an using the top u. S. Military leader in the middle east of disobeying orders, discrediting, of defying the wishes and the official position of the president of the United States which is something they say they know even as our u. S. Military doesnt. This is deliberate tracking in unreality. Right . This is garbage season. This is thats what is it feels like to wade through this kind of stuff. But you know what . Its supposed to be disorienting and demoralizing, supposed to make you feel exhausted and like nothing makes sense. Everything is too hard to work your way through. Thats the point. Its supposed to make you not believe anything anymore. Its supposed to sap your morale. Its supposed to stop your will to fight or believe in anything important. Its information warfare. Its supposed to make you feel bad. And right now, its cranking back up to what it was like ahead of the 2016 election. And so tonight, a special edition of the Rachel Maddow show a special augmented in brain power edition of the show because i feel like it is my job every night to do my best to explain whats happening in the news and in the country and whats important about it and what we maybe should expect to happen next. In offered to do that this kind of deliberate unreality environment, i feel like theres some specialist information that i dont have and want to get. What resources do we have as a country to fight this kind of thing . Who is fighting this fight right now . Are them any good at it . Are we better at this than russia . How is their defense when playing in kind of offense . What can we do as citizens to avoid being road kill in this race particularly if some of our government isnt trying to help defend us . Were about to bring some serious brain power to bear on this matter right here. Next. What . welcome. [ gasps ] a bigger room . how many of you use Car Insurance . Oh. Well, what if i showed you this . [ laughing ] hohoho wow. Its a computer. We compare rates to help you get the price and coverage thats right for you. Thats amazing the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. What . an unexpected ending keep it comin love. If you keep on eating, well keep it comin. All you can eat riblets and tenders at applebees. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. So what does the dishwasher do . New cascade platinum does the work for you, prewashing and removing stuckon foods, the first time. Wow, thats clean new cascade platinum. Thats confident. But its not kayak confident. Kayak searches hundreds of travel and Airline Sites to find the best flight for me. So im more than confident. Hows your family . Kayak. Search one and done. We all want to know you know, the new, new thing. With xfinitys retail stores, you can now see the latest. Want to test drive the latest devices . Be our guest. Want to save on mobile . Just ask. Want to demo the latest innovations and technology . Do it here. Come see how were making things simple, easy and awesome. Plus, come in today and ask about xfinity mobile. A new kind of Wireless Network designed to save you money. Visit your local xfinity store today. So as i mentioned at the top of the show were doing something a little special. Weve gathered three gigantic brains who can help us understand this moment that were in right now in the news and politics because these guys have served in top government jobs some of the key players in this what is now the ongoing russia scandal and its attendant mini scandals. I wanted to bring them all here tonight because its kind of remarkable weve all got them right here in one place at the same time. And because i feel like theres almost nobody better for me to talk to in terms of trying to make my way through some of the unreality were seeing right now from the administration and in the news. First Michael Mcfaul, the former ambassador to russia during the obama administration, the author of the new book from cold war to hot peace an American Ambassador in putins russia, fresh from a meeting at the white house after President Trump publicly considered handing him over to putin. Chuck rosenburg was chief of staff at the fbi to james comey and u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of virginia he was appointed to the job by president bush anding that the u axelrod, former senior federal prosecutor, number two at the Justice Department to the Deputy Attorney general and former acting attorney general sally yates. Gentlemen, thank you for being here tonight. We never do this. Its unusual for me. Im rarely in new york. Im glad you can all be here. Before i talk about the things i meant to Start Talking to you about, we have a little bit of breaking news i get to get your Immediate Response to because it has just become known. This is the tape that became known to the public just a few days ago. It is a recording reportedly made by Michael Cohen who is the president s longtime personal attorney. Although the president had previously denied that he had any knowledge of any payment having been made to a woman named Karen Mcdougal, a sort of hush money payment to keep her talking about her alleged affair with President Trump. It was a tape recording apparently seized by the fbi of mr. Cohen apparently unknowing unbeknownst to mrs. Trump tape recording a conversation they had about that payment. It is now released. Im going to hear it right here with you guys for the first time. Im told that theres one swear word in this we are not able to bleep. If youre sensitive to that, you may want to go lala la in the middle of it. Heres the tape. We just got this in. Ill get your reaction after we hear it. Go ahead. Let me know whats happening, okay . Oh. Oh. Maybe because of this it would be better if you didnt go. You know . Maybe because of this. For that one you know, to get rid of this because its so false what theyre saying and such bullshit. I think i think this goes away quickly. I think its probably better. Just to start. Yeah. In two weeks its fine. Right now its better. You know . Okay, honey. You take care of yourself. Thanks. Yeah, im proud of you. So long, bye. Whats up, mike. Cnn, great poll. Making progress. You guys a good guy. I cant believe whats can we use him anymore. He we told him to mark burns, can we use him anymore . No. Im sorry. We have a chance here tonight for you. So we got served from the new york times. I told you regarding the unsealed divorce papers with ivana. Were fighting it. Kasowitz. Should never be able to get that done. And never. They dont have the they dont have a legitimate purpose. A woman that doesnt. Correct. Yes, and its all. For about two, three weeks now. Delay it for. Even after that, its not going to ever be opened. Theres no purpose for it. Told byou about charleston. I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david. So that im going to do that right away. Give it to me. Ive spoken to alan wiesel berg about how to set the whole thing up with. So what are we going to pay . Funding yes. And its all the stuff. Thinking about that. Because you never know where that company you never know where hes going to be. Gets hit by a. Im all over that. I spoke to alan about it. When it comes time for the financing. What financing . Well have to pay. Cash . No, no, no, i got, no, no. How are you . Thats the recording. As you can tell, its a recording thats made in person it appears to capture mr. Trump person who appears to be mr. Trump on one side of what appears to be a phone call maybe talking to somebody you cant hear at the beginning and theres a back and forth between a person who appears to be mr. Trump and a person who appears to be mr. Cohen. Nobody is disputing the authenticity of this recording. Theres a question whether or not this has political salience. Also a question whether or not this has legal salience. Chuck, listening to that for the first time, given your role at the fbi and your work in Law Enforcement over the years, what does this say to you . So it at least has a number of leads. There are a whole bunch of people mentioned some by first name, some by last name and im sure the fbi and prosecutors want to know who they are and what role they play in that. In and of itself on the face of the recording, it doesnt seem indiscriminatory but often things do not. Theres also a strange reference, at least i think i heard one to our friend david. And we know that the pseudonym that mr. Trump used in those documents that were excued to make payments i think both to the Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal although i may be wrong about one of them was david dickinson. David dennison. Right. So the fake name he used was david and i think its mr. Cohen referring to our friend david when he starts to talk about executing this document. That may also be david pecker, the head of ami, the institution that was supposedly paying the hush money on the president s behalf. Thats the other friend david. It raises more questions than it answers but i think the overwriting impression it sure is interesting mr. Cohen has tapes, mr. Trump may have tapes and they probably didnt make just one. Its not necessarily illegal for mr. Cohen toe have made this tape. Well, in new york state, new york state is what is known as a oneparty consent state. Meaning that if you and i were talking in new york as we are now and i recorded the conversation without your knowledge, thats not a crime. Some states require the con sent of both parties. New york state requires a consent of only one party. Matt, as you listen to this, as chuck says theres no evidence some sort of crime being committed on this tape. What are the potential liabilities that the president has to worry about either in this specific instance or with mr. Cohen more broadly having had some sort of perhaps pattern of recording his interactions with his client . Based on this tape so far, it seems like the potential liabilities are more political than legal. The tape seems to suggest that mr. Trump was aware of payments being discussed in advance of the election when i believe hes on record saying he knew nothing about it. So thats a political liability. I agree with cluck. I dont see any specific legal liability based on what we heard on that kaw at least thats my gut reaction. But as chuck said and as your question just hinned at, there may be more tapes. And we dont know whats on them. Im sure that the special counsel is very interested to see whats on them, not just for their content but also for the leads and things that could be run down based on the content of those tapes. One last question on this. If ami, the Publishing Company in question if they ended up in trouble for having been a campaign donation, if they paid this woman to, paid this money to this woman to influence the election and they end up being pursued for that or pressured for that legally, would the president s knowledge of their having made this payment be relevant potentially to that case . Conceivably. So we can both be guilty of a crime if we have knowledge, agree on the object of our conspiracy. In other words, what it is rewant to accomplish and one of us, either of us takes some step toward that crime. You can aid and abet a crime, conspire to commit a crime. Knowledge is the key. If an illegal payment was made and mr. Trump didnt know it was going to happen or had no idea that he in fact it was illegal, perhaps not. But if they conspired, agreed together to commit a crime, sure. It doesnt matter they used someone else to do it. The tricky part in any in prosecution for a crime like that though is that theres a ready available defense which is that the payment was made not for political purposes but to save embarrassment generally. Regardless of the prox uppity of the election. Thats a tough argument to make given the timing. That was the defense in the johned wards trial and proved successful. It did. John edwards is a great example except he was running in a primary at the time, not in the general. And i believe the last payment to mr. Edwards was somewhere around nine to ten months before the election. So two months before the general election might be a harder case to make. Matts exactly right. Timing matter a lot. Well come back with Michael Mcfaul, Chuck Rosenburg, and matt axelrod. Ambassador mcfaul spent the day at the Trump White House after the Trump White House basically spent four days openly mulling the possibility of handing him over to russia for question. Well find out whatever hes willing to tell us about that when we come back. Stay with us. Just enter your destination and dates. Tripadvisor searches over 200 booking sites to find the hotel you want for the lowest price. Dates. Deals. Done tripadvisor. Is it to carry cargo. Greatness of an suv . Or to carry on a legacy . Its show of strength. Or its sign of intelligence . In crossing harsh terrain. Or breaking new ground . This is the time to get an exceptional offer on the mercedes of your midsummer dreams at the mercedesbenz summer event, going on now. Receive up to a 1,250 summer event bonus on select suvs. Mercedesbenz. The best or nothing. When you bundle your auto and hwith esurance, you could save with their single deductible. So if you confused the brake with the gas, or if your lamp post jumped out of nowhere, or if you forgot your bike was on the roof rack, you only pay one deductible instead of two for a claim involving both your auto and home. And when you save that much, its almost like it. Never even happened. Thats auto and Home Insurance for the modern world. Esurance. An allstate company. Click or call. Let someone else do the heavy lifting. Tripadvisor compares prices from over 200 booking sites to find the right hotel for you at the lowest price. So you barely have to lift a finger. Or a wing. Tripadvisor. Joins us are Michael Mcfaul, Chuck Rosenburg, a former senior fbi and Justice Department official, matt axelrod, former senior Justice Department official. Thank you all for being here. Michael, the russian government demanded after last weeks summit to question you. And some other americans, some american citizens, some american former officials. The white house sat on that request and basically openly mulled it, said considering it for four days before they finally said they wouldnt do it. Given that, i am surprised to learn that you went to the white house today. Uhhuh. How did it go. First lets add a few details. They didnt want to just question us. They think we are criminals. They were very clear that they think is the 11 americans they identified helped the businessmen bill browder that putin by the way announced to the world in kimhelsinki, first said american intelligence officials helped broader to launder money from russia and give it to the clinton campaign. I said all that on live tv. Because we were so distracted with the other news that President Trump wouldnt back lis intelligence community, people missed that. It was only when i was flying home i got news from russian journalists to say by the way, youre on that list too, what is your comment. So the russian government prepared a list to go along with the allegation from putin. Yes. And it was you and ten or so other americans. The number was the exact equivalent of the russian gru military Intelligence Officers mr. Mueller indicted. I can imagine the conversation. He was like you want to interrogate our gru russian intelligence officials . We have 11 americans we think also committed crimes in our country. And i was on that list. So the good news, theres good news and bad news. The good news it was completely absurd, it was crazy. The state department called it that. Regrettably, the white house did not starting first with the president. He said it was a great idea. Fabulous idea. Incredible offer. Incredible offer. And you know in realtime, i was listening to the president , i gave him the benefit of the doubt. He probably doesnt know who the bill browder is and he was put on the spot by putin. Three days later they kind of said the same thing, that was deeply offensive to me theltds say were still considering this cockamamie idea. There is a real indictment of real people with real evidence and putin proposed a completely absurd scenario. Because he wants the indictment to seem just ta absurd. Hes creating a false equivalence. Which is a Standard Operating Procedure for putin. Ive seen it a hundred times. Finally they got to a statement after their third try where they said were not going to let our people be interrogated. Thats the good news. They still called it from the white house a sincere effort by putin. It wasnt at all. But thankfully, the American People rallied by the way. We got a 90 vote in the u. S. Senate protecting me. We dont get many 90 votes in this country anymore. Thats only the first chapter. The second is what if the russian government indicts us in absentia and then goes after us on interpol. Bill browder has a book called red notice. You know the why . Because thats what they use to try to get him and we or i dont want to speak for others we fear that may happen to me. My mission in washington today and for the rest of the week is to meet with Trump Administration officials and to say send a strong signal to putin,ings to lavrov, to anybody you can that they will not tolerate whatsoever this crazy idea of indicting is us and then chasing us around the world on interpol. Matt and cluck, if the president had decided the other way, the white house did mull this for four days. Lets say the president decided yeah, were going to hand mike and these other americans, well hand them over. Would any other part of the government, would the Justice Department or any part of the government have a say in that if the president decide yes instead of no . Yes, so under the treaties between nations and in this case the mutual Legal Assistance treaty which i believe is still effective with russia, the ambassador could bring an action in federal court in the United States to challenge it. Right . So it isnt like some folks at the white house would grab him, throw him on a plane and off they go from Andrews Air Force base. We have a rule of law. One of the things that gives me hope, not to be too corny, our article 3 courts are holding. They are strong institutions, they abide by the rule of law. There is process. Amazing thing about our country is that the United States can lose in its own courts. If the United States was seeking to remove ambassador mcfaul, he could go into court and prevail. I imagine he would. Is it the same dynamic at work in terms of a potential interpol red notice . Putin puts out red in thes on people that prevents people from crossing International Lines or makes it very difficult, can get people arrested all around the world, a form of international Law Enforcement. When misused its a very potent form of international harassment. If putin does that is was mcfaul and other americans like he has done within bill broader. And many, many poernz senior ukrainian officials do this with ukrainian figures that are critical of putin all the time. Where in the u. S. Government is there a hurdle for the president if he wants to give in to putin on that . So unlike check can correct me if im wrong on this one but i dont believe you can go to court to challenge a red notice designation through interpol. You have to go to interpol. The United States has a representative as part of interpol but i believe you have to go to interpol itself rather than through the court system. Do you think that would be a successful challenge, cluck . I would hope so. Were in uncharred waters, rachel. The thought we even have to consider this. Its hard to say look, we have these 11 other examples of ambassadors being harassed and handed over to foreign governments and based on that precedent, no or yes. This hasnt happened. Not to my knowledge. I dont know what to point at other than common sense and the rule of law to suggest ambassador mcfaul is going to stay right here where he belongs. There has to be a political strategy, too. If you want to send a message to another government, you have the president of the United States say to putin or medvedev or anybody, dont think about doing it because there will be repercussions for our relationship and maybe reciprocity. Thats the message they need to push back on putin. Well be right backing with Michael Mcfaul, Chuck Rosenburg and matt. Stay with us. Youre trying to lower your very hwith a healthy diet. And exercise. And maybe even, unproven fish oil supplements. Not all omega3s are clinically proven or the same. Discover prescription omega3 vascepa. The one thats this pure. And fda approved. Look. Vascepa looks different. Because it is different. Its pure epa. 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I love you, basement guest bathroom. Your privacy makes you my number 1 place to go number 2. I love you, but sometimes you stink. Febreze air effects doesnt just mask, it cleans away odors. Because the things you love the most can stink. And try febreze small spaces to clean away odors for up to 30 days. Breathe happy with febreze. Were back with former u. S. Ambassador Michael Mcfaul, former senior fbi and justice official Chuck Rosenburg and former senior Justice Department official matt axelrod. Thank you all for being here. I have some questions about the maria bu tin fla case. I feel liking this hits kind of a good crosses section of all of your expertise. These due back in court tomorrow. She has consular representation. Shes a russian citizen. Were told russian officials have met with her in jail since her arrest. The Russian Foreign minister reportedly complained about her arrest to have mike pompeo. The Russian Embassy started a free maria butina social Media Campaign. I know this isnt necessarily specific to her case but i dont understand how these things work. Will they be able to get her out of jail . Whats the impact of the russian government having a role in assisting in her case . You want to take that . I can start. Its standard to be have consular notification under the vienna convention. Thats normal. It doesnt mean they have an outsized role or getting her out of jail. She will have separate representation as her criminal defense attorney but the russian government is notified as a matter, of course, like any government would be notified when had one of their nationals was arrested here in the United States. Theyll have access to her to advise her and to advise her counsel but no technical role in the legal proceed sflgs. Theyre not a party. The party is maria butina on one hand as the defendant and the United States on the other. The prosecutor. The United States in this case moved for her detention. Counsel russian government has no say in that. Any may not like it. They may create a social Media Campaign as you indicate bud they have no say in that. Theres also a really good reason for the judge to detainler which is all she has to do is walk into a Russian Embassy in the United States and shes on foreign soil. So is she a risk of flight . Thats one thing that the federal judge looks at and the answer is decidedly yes. Especially at least according to the prosecutors case, shes not a random russian person but a person secretly working for the russian government which would give the government a reason to we know how eager the russian government is to protect her. Mike, when you look at the free maria butina campaign to get people to change their online abtars to a picture of her, what do you make of that campaign . Where do you see that going . When you see the indictment against her and read the governments charges against her, do you recognize that m. O. . Is this a once in a lifetime kind of case or the sort of thing weve seen russia or other countries try in this country . Well, with respect to your second question, absolutely. I think people still dont understand that Vladimir Putin considers us a an enemy. And he is using all means he can to advance russian interests on american soil. Lets remember that the indictment that mueller put out was one more piece to a big picture which includes disinformation and even some people are joking its free mcfaul, well, free our russians, too. Theres a big difference. Im glad our colleagues point out, she is not a diplomat. Thats number one. The disinformation and spies. They are active in this country all the time. I want to be clear, i dont know lets let her go through the due process. We do have rule you have law here. They dont in russia. But it is an active campaign on multiple dimensions happening every day. Chuck, you recognize the sort of m. O. Alleged by the prosecutors as a typical spying and influence operation . Do i both if my time as a federal prosecutor and from my my time at the fbi. What the russians tend to do and ambassador mcfaul knows this is run lots of operations knowing some will fail. Most will fail. And some will succeed. Right . And they dont mind sacrificing their own people. Right. They take runs at lots and lots of different americans for political influence. This just happens to be one where they succeeded for a while and then it came to light and it failed. Well be right back with matt ax rod, with Chuck Rosenburg and Michael Mcfaul. Stay with us. Rip. And at expedia, we dont think you should be rushed into booking one. Thats why we created expedias addon advantage. Now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. Addon advantage. Discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. Only when you book with expedia. 3 toddlers wont stop him. And neither will lower back pain. Because at a dr. Scholls kiosk he got a recommendation for our custom fit orthotic to relieve his foot, knee, or lower back pain, from being on his feet. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. Douglas were running dangerously low on beans. People love your beans, doug. They love em. Doooooooooug you want to go sell some tacos . Progressive knows Small Business makes big demands. Doug, where do we get a replacement chili pepper bulb . So well design the insurance solution that fits your business. Its a very niche bulb. Its a specialty bulb. Trust tonight, Michael Mcfaul it, Chuck Rosenburg, fbi chief of staff. Matt axelrod. Gentlemen, thank you all for what turned out to be kind of an exciting breaking news night here. Its really a pleasure and honor to breaking news night here. It was really a pleasure and an honor to have you all here. Thank you, rachel. Now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, lawrence. Good evening, rachel. Good thing you had a bunch of lawyers around for the release of the cohen cohen tape number 1. Theres going to be many more. Were going to play it in its entirety for people to decide what it is theyre hearing here. But let me begin by telling you whos not going to be on our show tonight. Rudy giuliani declined to come on and explain what his client donald trump is actually saying on that audio that were going to play in a moment. But Michael Avenatti is here and he has a novel take on whats going on with these tapes. Adam schiff was here already to talk about what Rudy Giulianis been saying abt