Injustice that weve been getting because of the color of my skin. The killing sparked a reckoning with centuries of history. It is a racist confederate statue. Should be knocked down. There is an overt effort here to erase all the white history. A political debate that at times pits americans against each other. They want to destroy america as we know it. They hate america. There are painful injuries to so Many American citizens. The unhinged leftwing mob is trying to vandal ice our history. I think those statues belong in museums. They dont belong in public places. Tonight tramaine lee takes us on a powerful journey through the south. A trip to listen and learn as we struggle to come to terms with our past. Here now is a special presentation of stone ghosts in the south americas legacy of heritage and hate. In the month after george floyd was killed by minneapolis police, 30 Confederate Monuments were taken down in this country. When Tragedy Strikes now, the monuments fall. Thats what happened in 2017 after heather hay heyer was murdered in charlottesville, virginia. When she was protesting a white supremacist demonstration in charlottesville. 36 Confederate Monuments came down that year. Thats the year trymaine lee studied our stone ghosts and what they mean to the people who built them and what they mean to the people who have torn them down. Joining us now is trymaine lee, msnbc national correspondent. Trymaine, when you did get interested in, begin focusing your reporting on, the Confederate Monuments and why . You know, it was long before we took this journey in 2018. I remember living in new orleans and being in lee circle and seeing robert e. Lee hovering above the city and black folks especially moving in the shadow of these monuments. But after charlottesville and we saw the vvy violence and Heather Heyers death and saw the images of the torchcarrying individuals saying jews will not replace us and violence that seems so inherent baked into the fabric of not just america but these debate and those monuments. I said we have to go down and explore to get a better sense of what this connection really means to the people, not just to those who worship these, you know, the stone and the brass and the fabric, but those who are deeply, deeply disturbed by them. Trymaine, what did it feel like for you as a black man in america to take yourself into this journey to study how these monuments got there and what they mean . You know, i walk in the footsteps of black journalists like ida b. Wells, when black folks were being lynched went into the darkness and shown down a bright light. For me i felt Mission Driven but there were moments there we went deep into the south, deep into the Rural Communities and engaged with people who you go into their homes and see confederate flags, things in black face. They made offhanded jokes in my face. It was tough at times, but i did my best to connect, just to understand. I think we did that. It was uncomfortable at times but certainly well worth the journey. I think we found nuance in the wrinkles of history but a better understanding of how poignant the hate and legacy of the heritage truly is. It was a journey that was well worth it as were about to see. Later in this hour in our discussion will be joined by Caroline Randall williams. She wrote the stunning New York Times opped piece headlined, you want a Confederate Monument . My body is a Confederate Monument. Her ancestors were slaves and slave owners. Before we get to that discussion we begin with what trymaine lee found when he went looking for stone ghosts in the south. In 2017 hundreds of white nationalists descended on charlottesville, virginia, to defend a monument to robert e. Lee. Their arrival marked the beginning of 24 hours of violent clashes with counterprotesters. One person was killed. Others were beaten and bloodied. After the Unlawful Assembly was declared, it was really very festive. It just felt like we won. Thats when we heard this loud bang. One car got pushed into the intersection. Another car got pushed in right behind it. It was just utter chaos. Its hard to imagine that such a big moment happened in this little space. Yes. But thats common in america, right . Absolutely. These big moments happen in small spaces. This is what, you know, we learned that all of these small spaces can set the stage for huge explosions. The battle in charlottesville seemed to be over a single statue. Thats a battle thats been repeated in cities across the country. But more than 1,500 monuments to the confederacy remain, honoring those who fought and died to keep black americans like my ancestors in bondage. So i decided to travel the south to learn for myself just how deep the roots of this fight are buried. I went looking for understanding, for something that would make sense of this moment. Along the way i visited monuments, those that arent so easily removed, the artifacts, small enough for some to ignore. The landmarks too large to take down. And the legacy that resides in our memory and in our blood because the fight was always about more than just a statue. A beautiful morning in fredericksburg, virginia. I didnt want to take this journey alone, so i asked my friend, a reporter for the New York Times, to join me, to help me process what it all means. Whats going on, man . How you doing . Good to see you. Finally made it. For years we talked about race in history, how his people came to america by way of trinidad and mine through the slave trade. Seemed natural for him to join me. In 2017 the city council took up the question of whether to remove a slave Auction Block that stands on a corner in the middle of downtown. Were about to see an Auction Block where people were sold. Its crazy. Look at the old advertisements. Yeah. Seven strong negroes for sale. The idea were not just talking about we consider this manual labor. Were talking about artisan professionals. Yeah. When my uncle was young, he took a picture on the slave block from a caucasian who wanted him to take the picture. For him, it was about getting the money because he paid him. And when my grandfather realized that he had stood on that block to have his picture taken, my grandfather whipped him and threw the money away. And he told him what that block was and why he was never to go on that block again. That story has been with us since we were little children. This says not only did we not want you here but we still dont want you hear. The lone black council man pushed for a vote to remove the block. The six white members said they voted to keep it in its place to educate future generations. Ive heard you say that fredericksburg may be the most historic city in america. Indeed. Our history is our nations history. If i walk down to city hall, i walk by the home aftof mary washington, by James Monroes office. I walk by the home my mother was born in. You also walk by an Auction Block, right . I do. I do. What does that mean in terms of the history . At some point you arrive in a history where humans were bought and sold by the people of this community. That Auction Block is an artifact. The very fact that you can stand where somebody was treated as property and where families were separated is very moving. It is like what germany did when they had auschwitz and all. You cant ever forget how horrible that was. Councilman chuck frye proposed removing the block. The Auction Block had been on my mind for a long time since i was a kid. You know, i used to see people spit on it, i saw a mark auction, people did a mock auction. That rips your soul apart. My stance was always, okay, you know, i think it needs to go. It came down to a vote. Fredericksburg city council. It was a 61 vote. Do you believe that there is a way to do the block in a respectful way and keep it there . I cant change my view. What we can do is tell a story thats a more full indepth story. When you walk by that with your children, when you walk by with your people, what is the message being sent . Theres a possibility your greatgreatgrandfather was sold here. It seems like the fight over the Auction Block as you mentioned is whats in our history books. No what it represents has a rippling effect that exists in the very fabric of america. Thats america. Thats just america. The black barbershop has always been a place of community where wisdom is passed and stories are traded. Todays no different. So what was it like growing up with that Auction Block right there in the corner . It was, like, an embarrassment. I dont need to see that block to know what the past was. It made you mad because i could say it could be my greatgrandma, my greatgrandpa. You bring them in on a boat and then you sell them. It is totally unfair and unreal that people can actually sit there and say that, oh, well, were just saving history. No. What youre doing is youre spitting in our faces. Thats what youre doing. Just across the river from downtown is the chatum plantation where hundreds of slaves were. Can you imagine the conversation that happened here . The idea, a family, torture. On the flip side is the feeling you could be sold at that Auction Block. Right . Yun imagican you imagine, fr there, youre looking up here, seeing a nice brick house. Thats the house of horrors. Like the haunted house. When youre an enslaved person, the only thing on the horizon is servitude or death or running away. When the union army arrived here and for the white folks, it said to children, thats fine, and it was terror. Thousands of black folks fled across this river to join the union army. Yeah. Could you imagine that moment . In fairview, kentucky, the birthplace of Jefferson Davis, the state is wrestling with telling a fuller story around these memorials. Including a larger than life monument dedicated to the only president of the confederacy. There it is, look at that. My goodness. Thats a big that is that is huge. When you think about the conversation and debate especially over the last year, who role do the monuments and artifacts that cant be torn down as easily as a statue, how do they factor into this debate . Thats where were really moving into. In the past few years is talking about the construction of confederate memory in kentucky. Rooted specifically in this site. Who are the groups who are raising money to create these monuments that populate our landscape today, start to promote it, sell it back not only to the south, entire nation, retelling the history of the south and the civil war and recognizing this memorial landscape we encounter is not a product of the civil war and its history comes much later. Its history is situated within a story of a jim crow south. During the early 20th century groups loyal to the confederacy began promoting a revisionist spin on the civil war. The socalled lost cause. It was about pinning the north as an Occupying Force and the south as noble defenders of virtue, all while minimizing the role of slavery. Their influence would fuel generations of southern segregationists and nostalgia for the old south. The united daughters of the confederacy were especially prolific. Starting in the 1890s they put up at least 700 memorials to the confederacy. Symbols of the confederacy are not all copper and stone. For decades descendants of veterans have connected to the past through civil war reenactments. Jeff stokes has been reliving this history for 25 years. He counts dozens of confederate soldiers in his family tree. What are we looking at here . This is a beautiful shot. This is 6 pounder, model 1941. My brother and i built this. We looked it over, he said, yeah, i can make those. So thats where we thought, why not . That was a hot day. When youre out there in your uniform and you see the flags uhhuh. Is there a connection to the past . Is that what hinges you to this . Yeah, there is a connection to the past, uuhhuh. If youre interested in history, its ten times better than reading about it in a book. I guess it gives you a greater appreciation of your forefathers. And the suffering they went through. Does that appreciation dampen at all for you the fact day were fighting for the cause, the states, that were proslavery . You got to get into the mind of the 19th century mind or get into the 18th century mind. Its really hard to do. You have to do a lot of reading. The library is full of reading about why people decided that it was worth fighting and dying to own people and sell people. And, again, that was one i dont know if thats one of the topics at the time. A big topic. Its pretty big. Thats a big topic. Well, if you didnt own slaves, its not such a big topic. Does that factor at all how we should view these monuments, in the present day, given the fact theres a Large Population of americans who those monuments represent, theyre subhuman, not being human . So do we squash it . Do we rewrite history . If you dont have some type of proof, a generation from now you will have people arguing it, and it may just vanish. But considering that for a great number of people in this country, those things represent deep trauma and great violence against people. Havent we gotten beyond that . Have we . How many People Living in America Today were slaves . How many People Living in America Today owned slaves . It is roughly zero. So we should have got beyond that. But we dont have our last names. We dont have our religions. We dont have our tongue. Were speaking english. This language is not my native language either. But you have a great benefit. Everybody in america has a again benefit. Its the greatest country in the world. But not everyone has the benefit of slavery, correct . Everybody living in America Today has a great benefit and a great opportunity. The people of african descent, descendants of slave, what benefit did they get from slavery . Theyre here. Whats amazing is you get such a sense of place. This could be any town usa, but you are surrounded by mementos of the past. How do you grapple with that . How do you grapple with the pretty and the nice with the ugly underbelt . Theres as Much Division as ever in some ways, history means Different Things to different people. Theres a lack of consideration as to how this might make us as black americans feel. There seems to be this lock on the idea that we cant do away with history. Not history. Youre not telling the when we come back after this break, trymaine lees conversation with descendant of the president of the confederacy, Jefferson Davis. That is a surprising conversation. And after that, we will follow trymaine lees journey through the south. We will then be joined by a southern woman, carline Randall Williams, who says her black southern ancestors include people who were slaves and her white southern ancestors include people who owned those slaves and raped those slaves. In a New York Times essay she wrote, i defy any sentimental southerner to defend our ancestors to me. I am quite literally made of the reasons to strip them of their laurels. Thats coming up on our last word special, stone ghosts in the south, continues right after this break. Reak im still discovering whats next. And still going for my best. Even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib. Not caused by a heart valve problem. So if theres a better treatment than warfarin, im reaching for that. Eliquis. Eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. Plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. Eliquis is fdaapproved and has both. Whats next . Im on board. Dont stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. Eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. Dont take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. While taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer than usual for any bleeding to stop. Seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. Eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. Tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. Ask your doctor about eliquis. And if your ability to afford. Your medication has changed, we want to help. Did you know Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance tada . Your medication has changed, so you only pay for what you need . Given my unique lifestyle, thatd be perfect let me grab a pen and some paper. Know what . Im gonna switch now. Just need my desk. My chair. And my phone. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. For many, heritage lives in the bloodline. We reached out to the greatgreat grandson of Jefferson Davis. Hes trying to reclaim from those who see davis as a hero of White Supremacy. The night before our meeting we slept in the home of Jefferson Davis. His brother and mentor. You say youre a davis descendant in mississippi, you better be ready. It brings responsibility. People are assuming you are going to be a davis. Somebody asked me why i dont dress up like him. He still holds on to artifacts from his greatgreat grandfather. A book he signed. A letter he sent. A chair he sat in. Is there more resonance with something you own than something in a Public Square somewhere . To me, yes, absolutely because its handed down. This chair has reverence to me. A confederate statue or monument, when those folks put it up had reverence to them. How do you balance or reconcile or wrestle with the dual narratives around Jefferson Davis, one that we have all heard is the first and only president of the confederacy. On the other hand, 52 years of his life before the civil war. I dont know if i reconcile them as much as i try to bring them together to have a complete understanding. When we put that four years of his life, which is 5 in total perspective, is it what it is we want to remember . Or do we want to have a complete understanding of the entire 81 years of his life . That four years, pretty big four years, right . Pretty big four years because it was the most dramatic part of American History in a lot of respects. But he led that country in a position he was appointed to, not one he wanted. Dealing in the facts, know about Jefferson Davis, he supported the expansion of slavery even before the civil war and before he became president of the confederacy. He did believe that black people are inferior to white people. In your mind does that tarnish his legacy at all . What bothers me the most is exactly what you said. The statements he made in reference to the slaves were his own feeling about their status. I cannot say that i support that. But, again, it is the perspective of the time and the place that he lived in. It is not the most favorable aspect but it is part of his character we have to understand. I have to wonder, are you welcomed in those groups that are so staunchly proconfederate . Are you welcome in those spaces . In the proconfederate folks . I would say that im probably not. Before leaving town, we knew there was one more stop we should make if we really want to understand what keeps so many southern whites rooted to the confederacy. My first name gordon. My last time cotton, just like you pick. There you go. All this fuss over the confederate statues, the flag, slavery, is it time for us to move forward . No. If we move forward on this, we will leave Everything Else out of our history. Are we going to be selective in what were going to keep and what were going to forget . What about this idea, though, that these men were fighting to maintain that system of slavery . That wasnt all they were fighting for. They were fighting because our homes were invaded. The whole thing was based on money. Most things are. Going back to what happened in charlottesville. Someone was killed. Someone was shot at. Someone else was beaten up. Does it surprise you when you see that people are that virulent about their support and defense of robert e. Lee . Theyre not the ones that started it. Yes, i can understand it. But theyre not the ones that started it. Had the people not wanted to tear down a beautiful monument, it wouldnt have happened. Perhaps they should be moved to somewhere where they can be respected, not in a place of in a public display where its doing nothing but sending the certain kind of message. I totally disagree with you. If it happened right here, we commemorate it here. What do you think of Jefferson Davis . He is my personal hero. I think hes one of the great men in American History. What about he was obviously someone who supported the expansion of slavery. Should that diminish or tarnish his legacy at all . No, because he wasnt the only one. I think growing up in this Community Seven minutes from briarfield, going to a School Called Jefferson Davis, they can destroy what they can, but they women never destroy the legend or the man. How much credit do you give to the idea of these are men of their time, you know, what does that mean . Certainly they were men of their time. But do we forgive that . Having this conversation is kind of weird with some of the people who are able somehow to separate, you know, advocating for slavery and, interiority t ity t inferiority of black people but guys who led a lot of accomplishments. Thats hard to square. Can you imagine this filled with people and tear gas . Politician on horseback. The times. Beaten, bloodied. This is still a history. Alabama has played such a crucial role. Some of the most infamous periods of violence. Right . But also of civil rights and progress. So this place here plays a significant because of Edmund Pettus, famed as confederate soldier and leader and grand dragon but also we associate the bridge with the fight for black civil rights. Throughout this whole trip, weve heard people talking about iss histories. You cant lose history. I think if someone says that, it kind of makes sense a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I dont know. In this old section of the cemetery, many notable were laid to rest. Such as senator Edmund Pettus and congressman turner. Our guy again. Jefferson davis. Yep. Right here. Grand master of the klan. This monument was erected october 7th, 2000. This is the way he described this man. My understanding of the testament of our perpetual devotion and respect. Up one of the souths finest heroes. Many look here like they were judged by their had their skill, their price, their complexion. The united daughters of the confederacy. They were a very active group. The night look at this. The nightliest of the nightly race. Who sick of tng of the day of o. Not a song of southern chivalry. A song about southern chivalry, standing up for their way of life and people. Their homes, their farms, children, generations to come. Theres no tearing this thing down. This will loom here. This isnt some little town square. This is the statehouse of alabama. This is the capitol. Some memorials are easier to find than others. 20 miles from the capital a plaque stands on the side of the highway. It marked the spot where elmer bulman was lynched and his body left in a ditch, just a hundred yards from where his 5yearold daughter waited for him to come home. When youre black in alabama, you cant help but walk in the shadows of these huge Confederate Monuments. But do you see a connection between the message being sent about White Supremacy and what happened to your father . Oh, very much so. One of the articles that describe my fathers death says enraged whites jealous about the success of a black man, if you had more than they think you should enraged. She paid for her fathers marker herself after the state refused to allow her to place it on public land. When you think about what you missed in life, not having him my mom went from prosperity to poverty almost overnight. Sometimes ive wondered what my life could have been. What my life could have been. Elmores name was included among the thousands of lynching victims at the National Memorial for peace and justice. The memorials director, brian stevenson, hopes the collective names will change the narrative of a country still grappling with how to tell its own story. When i moved to montgomery, this was a city that had 59 markers and monuments to the confederacy. You couldnt find a word slave or slavery anywhere. How is that possible . Its because people had been very intentional about denying that part of our history. So this memorial, this site is intended to be a very intentional response to our silence. We talked to folks around the country about what the confederacy stood for, the monuments. They say black people owned slaves, too. There were white slaves. There were many reasons beyond slavery. Many. These are all things designed to deracialize what happened. And they are aberrations. And weve allowed that to happen because we were fighting these other struggles, right . So this site is designed to help people understand that you cant ignore this any longer. So you see one county with one name and one county with two names. And then you see a county like this with over a dozen names. Do you have any dodge county, georgia . Yeah, we do. My greatgrandfather were farmers in dodge county, georgia, and apparently were issues with white men. They owed them money around the end of the year. Yes. Yes. So sent his son, cornelius, into town. Yeah. They shot him, put him on a horse, sent him back. Yeah. We have the death certificate, says age 12. Wow. 12. Age of death, gunshot wounds. People who engaged in these lynchings could have buried the bodies in the ground, could have tried to hide this violence. Which is what you would imagine people would do. They did the opposite. They were actually proud to engage in this kind of racial terror. Thats why hanging was so common. The whole idea was to taunt and to terrorize and to torment africanamericans. Thats why you have to think about this as terrorism. There are thousands who get killed. But there are millions who are victimized. Seven black people lynched in alabama in 1888 for drinking from a white mans well. Dozens in louisiana because they were protesting their low wages. Am i crazy for when i read these things im scared because sometimes i feel like this could have been last week. Oh, it could have been. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. It just weighs on you. There are so many more because i know from my familys story what happened and hes not here. Yeah, of course. Theres so much more. Some say these monuments are about heritage and heroes. But if anything, theyre also reminders of americas unsettled war with itself. I started this journey starting with light and understanding. To understand what these monuments mean to those who honor them. But it was never about the monuments, the large, looming stone facades or grotesque stumbling blocks or what lives inside the man whose grip on history has been shaped by the myths they hold as truths. If anything, it was about a reckoning in a time of american terror. Im not sure where we go from here, but the road through history is long and winding with markers along the way. Ymaine lee will be joined after this break by Caroline Randall williams who wrote in a powerful New York Times piece, the black people i come from were owned and raped by the white people i come from. Who dares to tell me to celebrate them . Caroline Randall Williams and trymaine lee will discuss the stone ghosts in the south, next. Rinvoq a oncedaily pill. Can dramatically improve symptoms. Rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. And for some. Rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. Thats rinvoq relief. With ra, your overactive immune system attacks your joints. 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Isnt that what i said . No you were talking about allstate and insurance. I just. When i. Lets try again. Everybody back to one. Accident forgiveness from allstate. Click or call for a quote today. Accident forgiveness this virus is testing all of us. And its testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. So abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. And until this fight is over, we. Will. Never. Quit. Because they never quit. When youre out there and youre in your uniform and you see the flags, is there a connection to the past . Is that what hinges you . Yeah, there is a connection to the past, uhhuh. If youre interested in history, it is ten times better than reading about it in a book. So i guess its a greater appreciation of your forebearers and the suffering they went through. Do you see a connection between White Supremacy and what happened to your father . Oh, very much so. One of the articles that described my fathers death says enraged whites jealous about the success of a black man who acquired more than they think you should, they got to put you back in your place. Youve been watching trymaine lees riveting documentary produced with nbc news features, stone ghosts in the south americas legacy of heritage and hate. Trymaine lee is back with us and joining our discussion now is caroline rapids Randall Williams, writer in residence at vanderbilt university. She wrote the highly acclaimed opinion piece for the New York Times entitled you want a Confederate Monument . My body is a Confederate Monument. Trymaine. Let me start with you. What was the most painful thing you saw in your journey through these monuments . Lawrence, there were a number. Certainly, in montgomery, you know, being at that memorial for those who have been lynched. Over 4,000 people lynched. To see the names of the people who came from the county where my greatgrandparents lived and where my greatuncle was killed. Certainly, walking on those plantation grounds, theyre so beautiful. But that belies the great violence. These are forced labor camps, really. To talk to men who believe and love the mythology of what we say america was, what they say the confederacy was but it was violence and pillage and raping and to look me in my eyes and with an air of something etherial, speak of the past in such glorious ways knowing my people struggled to survive, before brutally murdered and worked to build what america is today, that was the most painful this charade, this veil. The lies that these men tell themselves and pass on to their children. Not just in the huge obelisk but in the reenactment. Of the passi ining down of that legacy. It was really tough but i think every step along the way there are moments of great pain. Caroline, what were you thinking and feeling as you were watching trymaines journey tonight . I was thinking about that line the guy said where he said that you have to get into 19th century mind, into an 18th century mind. And what was implicit in what he said was a white 19th century mind. A white 18th century mind. Because if hed been able to get into a black american 19th century mind, he would not be able to engage in that exercise and look a black man in his house in his face and try to justify their reenactments that hes undertaken. Thats what i was thinking. But on that point, caroline, there were white 19th century minds who were completely opposed to slavery, including relatives of robert e. Lee himself living in the south who were opposed to slavery and were opposed to the war that he was fighting. Well, right. So its actually again this implicit fetishization of a slaveholding, slavery celebrating mentality. Im also thinking about the guy, mr. Cotton, like the socks. You dont have to say like you pick, but anyway. Like you pick. Like you pick. I was thinking about what he said. I was thinking about what he said and i was thinking, he said, its about money. But then he stops there. He doesnt say, well, what was the primary source of southern american money, right . He doesnt examine it to its root to acknowledge that what he is celebrating when he celebrates the cause, what he is arguing when he argues that it was economic, hes still arguing on behalf of slavery. Trymaine, speaking to Jefferson Davis, greatgreatgrandson, was that a surprising conversation for you . It was pretty surprising because youd have to imagine how revered Jefferson Davis still is in those spaces. You think about guys like mr. Cotton and our reenactor. They revere this man. Hes a hero. A descendant of Jefferson Davis wants to separate himself in some way from the legacy, was very interesting. But he wasnt a full throated, you know, dismissal of everything he believed in. This was a softer, gentler kind of embrace of his relative and his ancestor. So he still loves and honors this man. He had more nuance than some of the others, but he wasnt necessarily distancing himself because he still his whole thing was there was all this time before. He was a great man who had a short period that did a bad thing, as opposed to an entire life building up to this moment where he boldly proclaimed himself the president of this nation that had the right, by all means necessary, to own people, to sell people, to do what they will. Then i think what caroline said earlier and as you mentioned, lawrence, this idea of men of their times. There were men of this time who also were fighting this as abolitionists. The contradictions but also the mistelling, misremembering, miseducation of history. The mythology surrounding this. Go back to mr. Cotton, like you pick, hes a pillar in this community. We went to three or four different places, said, oh, you got to talk to mr. Cotton, got to find mr. Cotton. So we go deep in the woods where the cell phones dont work and we pull up on this guys front porch unannounced. Lets us in. We have a bunch of cds of people in black face. You have the confederate flag. He kind of laughed, showed it to me, cooped of chuckled. This is a pillar in this community. So were wrestling with the idea of these monuments but what lives inside these men that they pass on is almost as troubling. Caroline, you grew up in the south. You live in the south now. What is it that most people miss when they look at this . Im sure as someone who is a southerner yourself especially people like me from the north as we look at these things, is there kind of a constant reframing you want to do for us . Of course there is, lawrence. When i think about mr. Cotton, when i think about the other gentleman whos doing this reenacting, i think what we have to remember is that these men have preserved this ideology so, so successfully because they turn our idea of theyre saying youre going to erase our history. And what theyre saying actually is, youre trying to revise, edit, and fact check history that we already approved and that our ancestors wrote. And theyre not actually allowing for the proper editorial process of how something successful gets written to be undertaken. They want to have us accept their narrative wholesale and its been accepted wholesale up to this point and i think that its now time for us all to be responsible documentarians of documentarians of the actual bones of their narrative. Caroline, one of the comments i was struck by early in trymaines documentary was the woman who compared the way the south treats this history to the way germany treats their nazi history. Thats a point you made on this show on your first appearance. Yeah. That line struck me dumb the first time i watched this documentary. Because that Auction Block is just sitting, without any context, in the middle of a square. Last i checked, auschwitz, the camps that have become museums to honor the people who were murdered there, the genocide that was undertaken there. To demand reproach for the soldiers who committed those atrocities. Those places have been put into context. They are solemn and they are rigorous, in discussing the horrors. Thats just a little, cheerful block in the middle of a little, cheerful, southern, quaint street. And she says wasnt that lovely . You can touch history. You can see where someone might have been told. But there is no demanding of context, and theres no demanding of context because she knows, and we all know, that it left there to intimidate. To shame. To harrow. Its not the same at all. Trymaine, what did it feel like to be there . And of course, knowing maybe something was going to happen. That community was moving toward maybe something happening with that, and it finally did. You know, to see that block sitting there, and as caroline mentioned, its in a busy district where people were literally hanging out, drinking wine, eating food. Like there wasnt an Auction Block where bodies were not only sold but bodies broken and families torn apart. There had been some progress made. And i believe that block, it will be removed now. There are some more recent developments. But the idea that it was still split along racial lines. That even the white folks on that council would say that theyre allying and theyre trying to preserve history. It still broke racial lines. The lone, black city councilman pleading with people to understand what that meant to this community. And talking to folks who said, you know, black folks who grew up in this community, said we wont even go down that block. It was so disturbing. You heard the one woman say her uncle was whipped for getting on that block. Saying, dont you dare sit on that block. And while we were even there, people were taking pictures around it. Teenagers playing hopscotch around it. It was so disturbing. But it speaks to just how baked into the fabric of america and who we are, literally, baked into the ground and in our minds and the mythology and allure. That we would have an Auction Block in the middle of a commercial district where people were sold and traded, as if it was nothing. Not a frens around it. Not a plaque. Just the block. It seems the nostalgia campaign, which has been waged for decades upon decades upon decades, to turn history into nostalgia is what was necessary in order to have an Auction Block left out there, as you say, without any context, whatsoever. Yeah. I think this question of how southern nostalgia functions is one of the things that troubles me the most, and that i am so eager to, you know, really reexamine and push into new in a new frame of understanding in the future. And i really was struck by the descendent of Jefferson Davis, in that regard, because, you know, he sort of tries to put into context, say its only four years of his life. But i know people there are people who have lived beautiful lives and then get drunk one night and kill a family in a car crash. And then, they have to pay for that sin. They have to go to jail. They have to answer the family of the people they killed. And i think that this idea of forgiveness. Thats between you and the lord, as we say in the south. Or as churchgoing folks. The forgiveness is between you and god. In the United States of america, when you commit grave crimes against humanity, regardless of what you did the rest of your life, we have to discuss how you pay for that. Trymaine, did you sense any changing of minds during your conversations . Sometimes, i felt like again, i tried to walk in superunderstanding. I wanted, you know, folks to put their guard down, which they did. Again, we didnt plan any of those interviews. They were like out in the woods with our reenactor. We just kind of showed up. We went around town talking to folks. After i was trying to work them a little bit, i got a sense that there was sometimes some understanding but their beliefs were so hardwired, there wasnt much room to budge. Even with the niceties of the south. There wasnt much budging. Caroline randal williams, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Trymaine lee, thank you for sharing our discussion and bringi bringing your documentary to us tonight. We really appreciate this hour, its been very important for us. Thank you, trymaine. Hour, its been very important for us. Thank you, trymaine. 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