Word with lawrence odonnell. I was so glad you had senator schumer on tonight. He was the person who really made the point of what was going on in that stunt at the white house today. It was simply that the president had no infrastructure plan on the day that he was supposed to have an infrastructure plan for that meeting. So what was he going to do instead. I know, ill go out and do this nutty press conference. It wasnt even just a press conference but the announcement that the government will now be shut down. President is shutting down. Hes on strike because theyre investigating him. This is the equivalent of like, getting caught breaking curfew or like not making your bed or doing Something Else bad, so you walk into the kitchen, grab the silverware drawer and shake it over your head upside down. Im creating a new crisis. That was nuts today. I give senator schumer credit for saying what happened in the white house would make your jaw drop trying to make us all not lose our sense of wonder how weird this all is. The president i guess forgot he has a very, very big legislative coming up of nancy pelosi in the house of representatives. That is his renegotiated version of nafta which is not even nafta 2. 0, its like nafta 1. 1. The house of representatives is not friendly toward it already. So im not sure whats in it for nancy pelosi to fast track the president s new nafta agreement through the house of represeti representatives. Think of the negotiating position hes taking here, im not going to do any work as president. Were not going to do any legislation, nothing, unless you drop au your investigations into me. What does he think is going to happen in response to that . Does he think even the republicans will say democrats you better drop your investigations . The president says the country will get it if you dont. What does he expect to be the response to this . The only thing hes done is if there was ever any inclination by anyone to drop an investigation into him they now cant because he told them they needed to and it would be giving into this weird threat to the country if they went along with it. I dont know if this was the president doing this on his own. I dont know if theres some mad genius at the white house who thinks this will end well. This is something he will lose. I cant imagine this is going to help his temperament at all. I hate to break it to you. Theres no mad genius. Sorry. Oh. I had this idea. Huhuh, nope, not even in the movie version. April the going to be a mad genius. Huhuh, no. If weise could write a mad genius, it might make for a better movie. Thank you, rachel. The president was crushed today, just crushed by another federal judge in the president s attempt to block house of representative subpoenas for his financial records at Deutsche Banking that could reveal Donald Trumps Financial Dependence on russian oligarchs close to putin. That happened on the same day that the pressurery secretary gave false testimony to a House Committee about his illegal participation in a scheme directed by the president to block the Internal Revenue service from following the law and handing over the president s tax returns to the house ways and Means Committee chairman as the law clearly requires. Now that alone that, moment alone would be the biggest and most shocking news item on most other news days of most other presidencies. But we wont get to that. We wont get to the treasury secretary not telling the truth in a house hearing until the end of this hour. And when we do, we will be joined by an expert on that subject who i feel very lucky to have with us tonight, an attorney who served over 20 years in the chief counsels office at the irs, someone who knows much more about that subject than i do. There is no doubt that the some day soon, a federal judge is going to order the treasury secretary and director of the irs to hand over Donald Trumps tax returns to the chairman of the ways and Means Committee and the judge who issues that order will no doubt, be echoing and possibly even specifically citing the order issued by a federal judge in new york city today who ordered Deutsche Bank to comply with a house subpoena for the trump records. In his opinion today that, judge referred specifically to the judges opinion on monday that was the first to order compliance with a house subpoena for trump financial records from an Accounting Firm. Federal judges are now Donald Trumps worst enemies because they are following the law. And because they dont play trump games. Federal courtrooms do not allow the kinds of silly statements that donald trump makes at his rallies or the silly stunts that he pulls in the white house like the stunts that he pulled today in the white house. President trump actually scheduled a ridiculous stunt in the white house today so that he could use it as the basis for an even more ridiculous stunt minutes later in the white house rose garden. The only thing that will be remembered from his stunt upon a stunt is that the president of the United States actually said this. I dont do coverups. No president who did not do coverups ever said i dont do coverups. The closest Richard Nixon came to that was i am not a crook, and he was forced to resign the presidency because he did coverups. He was never buffoonish enough to say i dont do coverups. He said that today because this morning the speaker of the house said this. Would you believe that its important we do believe its important to follow the facts. We believe that no one is above the law and clearly the president of the United States and we believe that the president of the United States is engaged in a coverup. In a coverup. That was the nature of the. Now, as everyone in politics knows, you should never adopt the language of the opposition especially when it is an accusation against you and extra especially when it is a criminal accusation against you like coverup. Nel half competent white house staff would have strongly advised the president not to use the word coverup today or ever. He was in the rose garden to explain to reporters why he was not in the cabinet room where he was scheduled to be at that moment in a meeting with the democratic leadership of the house and the senate to talk about possible infrastructure legislation. But the president said he was incapable of doing his job once he heard that nancy pelosi had actually used the word coverup. Instead of walking in happily into a meeting, i walk into look at people that had just said that i was doing a coverup. I dont do coverups. You people probably know theyll better than anybody. Oh, and that little tag is one of his pathological tells. You people know that probably better than anybody. He constantly says that to the White House Press corps. Knowing that they are all you locked into a tradition of politeness that prevents them from screaming back at him, no, we dont know the that the better than anybody. Most of us have written stories in which you are reported to be engaged in a coverup. It is an important part of the trump public technique when he throws in that line, you people probably know that better than anybody and it is met with silence. That is important because donald trump knows that in the tv audiences mind, he thinks anyway, that that silence affirms that those people really do know better than anybody that what he just said is true. Donald trump uses the White House Press corps as a prop as he did today and he used the Democratic Congressional leadership as a prop once again today and is now telling america that nothing dangerous bridge will be repaired, not one penny of Infrastructure Improvement will occur in the United States of america as long as the president of the United States is being investigated. I walked into the room, and i told senator schumer, Speaker Pelosi, i want to do infrastructure. I want to do it more than you want to do it. Id be already good at that. Thats what i do. But you know what . You cant do it under these circumstances. So get these phony investigations over with. That statement an hope by any other president would be an Impeachable Offense. To say i will not perform my constitutional duty as long as im being investigated would be in and of itself an article of impeachment against any other president but this congress has a Republican Senate which will abide any violation of Donald Trumps oath of office and has also an besided many of them and the Democratic House is now apparently lost on what Impeachable Offense actually means. They all green even the speaker that the president has committed Impeachable Offenses but do not agree that the president should be impeached for Impeachable Offenses. They have yet to explain that. This is the first time in history that a party in the how was representatives has had such a tortured relationship to the issue of impeachment, but the courts are marching on against the president in ways that are possibly almost as devastating as impeachment. The funny thing about the word impeachment, compared to the word coverup, is that President Trump has finally found a word that he thinks a president just should not say. All of a sudden i hear last night theyre going to have a meeting right before this meeting to talk about the i word. The i word. Can you imagine . What i could not imagine is that donald trump would find a word that he is afraid to say in public. You know they say confidential sources. Do you ever notice they never write the names of people anymore. Everything is a source says. There is no source. The person doesnt exist. The persons not alive. Its bull shit, okay . Its bullshit. From the start, the only possibility for infrastructure has been than nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer and donald trump would build a road to nowhere because at democrats and the trump party will never agree on infrastructure legislation. Some democrats would be willing to pay for Infrastructure Spending with a gasoline tax or cuts to defense spending. And republicans would not agree to pay for Infrastructure Spending at all, period, zero. Republicans would not support Infrastructure Spending. They would simply support giant tax breaks for Companies Engaged in very loosely defined infrastructure projects. So there has never been even a 1 of a possibility chance of an agreement on infrastructure legislation and democrats knew that but they did not want to appear to be unwilling to negotiate with president frump. So nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer have repeatedly allowed for the possibility of negotiations in their last discussion with the president , they asked the president to present them with proposals for how to pay for Infrastructure Spending. That was the point of todays meeting. In a normal white house, president would have walked into the room with the budget director, with perhaps the treasury secretary and perhaps the transportation secretary and they would lay out infrastructure options with different price tags and different ways of paying for those projects and there would be a give and take at the table in the cabinet room, the kind of meeting i saw many times in that room when i was a Senate Staffer and it might take months but in that room using those puzzle parts, an agreement would eventually emerge. That is the adult job of the presidency. That is the job donald trump has never done and will never do. And said today he will not do. And so it became another stunt day at the white house with the president who is now on record as being the first president in history to go on strike. The president who is going to stay on strike as long as hes being investigated. So ive said from the beginning right from the beginning, that ha you probably cant go down two tracks. You can go down did the investigation track and you can go down the investment track or the track of lets get things done for the American People. We have my two favorite people to discuss stunt day at the white house tonight. Leading off our discussion, eugene robinson, associate editor and Pulitzer Prize wing columnist for the washington post, an msnbc Political Columnist and joy reid, msnbc National Correspondent and host of am joy and the author of the book the man who sold america. This is one of those subjects, stunt day, that requires a mix of alertness and sensitivity to the policy and to the workings of the white house the way government is supposed to work. Yeah. And i this i you better bring a sense of humor to get through it, you have to bring a sense of humor to it. So he piles the stunt on top of the stunt and he goes on strike. Lawrence, thank you so much for doing that. I apologize for cackling in the background as he were doing it. I couldnt stop myself from laughing. I mean, its hilarious. The reality is this guy has his entire public career senior bred kit indicated on tricking bank b into believing he had money even though he had built bank a and getting them to fund casino c even though a b had gone bankrupt and having to show the apprentice after he was already a business failure. Now the democrats entire response is predicated on the idea hes got a master strategy that hes trying to trick them into impeaching him and hell fool them and hes got a strategy that will ignite a wave of trump affection thats going to come from nowhere because 52 of americans say they will never vote for him. Hes going to be bill clinton and everyone is going to love him. Donald trump is terrified of impeachment. Donald trump is terrified of humiliation of being exposed thats why hes so freaked out about his business records. If he was goading them to impeach him, he wouldnt mind the Mueller Report coming out because he wouldnt be afraid. Hes terrified. The democrats are more afraid of trump and more afraid of this magical base thats going to fall in love with him when hes impeached than they are of their own base turning on them if they will do nothing. Gene, the democrats have already passed about 100 bills in is this house of representatives large and small. Which takes us back while investigating this president , to go back to 1974 to the investigation of president nixon as i know you recall, i just asked today, give me a rough outline after legislation that year that congress was able to do. Things like while theyre basically removing the president. Right. The federal aid to highway act, rehabilitation act of 1973, the endangered species act while theyre driving Richard Nixon out of office investigating, the budget act of 1974, nixon signs it on july 12th and hes. Hes on a helicopter a month later. Exactly. That was a giant piece of legislation. That created the budget committees. It created the congressional budget office. Everythinging about federal budget is was defined in that very complex law that the Nixon Administration tracked, responsibly. They did their jobs. And the president frankly did his job while he was being driven out of office. Look, the Nixon Administration for its many flaws was a presidency. This has always been a presidency. It never did a real presidency from day one. Its never been fully staffed. Its never been staffed with competent people let alone the brilliant people that we usually see in administrations. People who really know the ins and outs of the federal budget, really know infrastructure. Who are committed to the idea of government and not the idea of grifting you know themselves into a bigger house and a better pool. Which is kind of what we have now. So it shouldnt be a surprise that they had no infrastructure plan. They never were going to have one and they dont have one. They have flow idea how to fund it. And so they came up with a stunt. Or two stunts. The first stunt and then the second stunt that built on that. You know, the only thing i can say for what democrats did today and how they come out looking is youre right. They are wrong if they think theres some very subtle sort of machiavellian longrange fourdimensional chess strategy that donald trump is playing because he dont do that. But there are a lot of people in the country who are frustrated that stuff doesnt get done. And it is useful i think from that standpoint for democrats to be saying lets get stuff done and for the president to say i wont do anything, i refuse to do my job. I will hold my breath till i turn blue and they stop investigating. Can you imagine if that was bill clintons choice when he was being investigated. What bill clintons choice was the only thing you could possibly do. He wanted to appear to be studiously doing his job every single day. And there was no real public evidence that he wasnt studiously doing his job every single day, and as a result, bill clintons job Approval Rating went up when he appeared to be seriously doing his job. Right. While being investigated. Donald trump would never consider that possibility. I think that the democrats also even though some of them lived through it, misremember everything about what happened with the clinton impeachment. Clinton was already popular. And the public saw him doing great things on the economy. They saw him actually doing a job they thought was competent and then they see him being impeached or a sexual affair. Most of the public thought that was ridiculous. Of course, his popularity went up. He said im going to get back to the business of the country. I think he said that. That was his phrase. Donald trump, the idea that donald trump was ever going to do the business of the country, thats what i question with the democratic leadership. Why play along with the ruse. He wasnt going to have a infrastructure plan. You think he was going to have what he said . He didnt have one. So the way to deal with the fact of his inadequacy as a president is throw a temper tantrum. The thing about the democratic leadership that is confounding to a lot of people who ask me to explain it is that they are both saying he has committed essentially a crime or high crime. They said hes committing a coverup. But no, no, it doesnt rise to the level of impeachment. I dont understand it. Gene. Just one other thing i think is being misremembered about the clinton impeachment is that the Republican Party did fine in the 2000 election. They won. After the clinton. They won. Because the scarf impeachment was on him. Once you stamp that scarlet i on a president he didnt too useful. Gene, imagine the president walked into that room today with an infrastructure plan, with an infrastructure plan that was compromisable in ways that democratses would have trouble turning down. And at least and began what could have been weeks of donald trump appearing to do his job. What if he said that choice . That would have been incredible. Nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer would have been gob smacked and wouldnt know what to say or do. He would confound everybody if he actually seriously did his job. Were going to have to take a break here. Joy reids book is the man who sold america. Joy and eugene, thank you both very much for starting us off tonight. Appreciate it. When we come back, congressman jamie raskin is with us, a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Hes going to join us on this important week when the house subpoenas are finally being enforced in court. And later, it was the secretary of the treasurys turn today to not tell the truth in a congressional hearing we will show you that video. Well be joined by an expert on the laws that secretary mnuchin was misstating today. Y mnuchin was misstating today i cant believe it. That karl brought his karaoke machine . Aint nothing but a heartache. No, i cant believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my Car Insurance with geico. I never wanna hear you say. No, kevin. No, kevin believe it geico could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. Listen to your mom, knuckleheads. Hand em over. Hand what over . Video games, whatever you got. Lets go. You can watch videos of people playing video games in the morning. Is that everything . I can see whos online. Im gonna sweep the sofa fort. Well, look what i found. Take control of your wifi with xfinity xfi. Lets roll now thats simple, easy, awesome. Xfinity xfi gives you the speed, coverage and control you need. Manage your wifi network from anywhere when you download the xfi app today. Chairman adam shich of schiff has announce add agreement with attorney general barr and the Justice Department to hand over the portions of the Mueller Report that were redacted. To examines information that involves Sensitive National Security Issues and has routinely done so throughout the history of the committee. We said look, here are 12 sets of documents that we want. Theyre identified in the report. Nug none of these are even arguably privileged in any way. All of these involve Counter Intelligence or foreign intelligence information. Start by providing these or were going to go to an enforcement action. This was a test of whether they were acting in good faith or without any faith, and close to midnight last night, they finally agreed. That does not move the House Judiciary Committee any closer to obtaining the full unredacted Mueller Report but the success that other committees have had in court this week enforcing their subpoenas is now a very strong indicator of the strength of the Judiciary Committees case when it comes to court to enforce their subpoenas. After her threeminute infrastructure meeting at the white house today with the president , the speaker of the house said this. The fact is in plain sight, in the public domain, this is president is obstructing justice and hes engaged in a coverup. And that could be an Impeachable Offense. Ignoring this ignoring the ignoring the subpoenas of congress was article 3 of the nixon impeachment. Joining our discussion now, representative jamie raskin, democrat from maryland and member of the House Judiciary Committee and the House Oversight committee. Congressman, i want your reaction to two successive federal judges ordering complete compliance with house subpoenas and had toos federal judge actually quoting mondays federal judge twice in his opinion. I think were going to win all of these cases, lawrence, because congress has the power of fact finding. The Supreme Court has said thats a central function to the legislative branch were allowed to assemble the facts that we need. As one judge put it, if weve got the power to impeach the president for high crimes and misdemeanors, certainly we have the power to investigate the power for high crimes and misdemeanors. Thats how we would find you the out what hes up to. There are reports of discussions some reports of dissension within the democrats and the house of representatives about the question of impeachment. Youve been reportedly favoring it in some of the leadership discussions against other members of the leadership who are as opposed to it. Where do you think impeachment stands now in the house of representatives . Let me just say that the reports of division in the Democratic Caucus are vastly exaggerated. I would never say ive never seen us more unified to stand strong and tall against the corruption of the executive branch. So heres where we are. As you quoted in the int here, Speaker Pelosi said the president is engaged in a fullblown coverup and i would add a shutdown cost executive branch. The president saying were not going to do anything with you till you drop the investigations and shutout of the legislative branch. Hes basically plunged the country into constitutional chaos. We are trying to come forward a 2 trillion infrastructure plan and he said not till constitution stop exercising your lawful function. So the speaker said that this would be an Impeachable Offense, a full blown coverup. Thats pretty much what Richard Nixon was facing with impeachment against him earnings full blown coverup and we have dozens of members of the house including a clear majority in the Judiciary Committee who think high crimes and misdemeanors have been committed based on the evidence in the Mueller Report as well as the daily evidence we get of the president ial obstruction and defiance and contempt of congress. So i think the cat is out of the bag. Everybody or the vast majority of us in. The Democratic Caucus think Impeachable Offenses have been committed and the real question is a question of exactly what path do we get. The speaker thinks that were better off working in each of these completes to try to obtain the evidence were going after. I think those people especially in the Judiciary Committee who have been facing all of the evidence of Impeachable Offenses from the Mueller Report are happy to say hey, if you can get more evidence about tax evasion, if theres more evidence about emoluments clause violations if theres more evidence about Money Laundering which seems to be the thing that gets the president the most terrified, remember when he said that if mueller investigated his finances, that was a red line. It does seem as if mueller carefully gerry mandered the report to exinclude anything about the president s finances. Thats what were going after. Were going to get to the bottom of this. This president has turned the executive branch of government and the presidency into a money making operation for himself and his friends and his business. And were going to get to the bottom of that. Thats totally unlawful, too. But we are not afraid of using every tool available to us in the constitution including impeachment the inherent of contempt. Weve got contempt citations were bringing against barr, that were going to bring against mcgahn, anybody who defies the Lawful Authority of congress. Throw the 25th amendment in there too because there are two termses of what happened today. One is the president is just acting unconstitutionally in defying her power. The other is that hes lost touch with reality and its not within his senses. Weve got look carefully at the 25th amendment, as well. When does the impeachment process begin . Well in a certain sense you could say its begun because the factfinding process has begun in pretty much all of the major investigative committees in congress, in the Oversight Committee in, the Judiciary Committee, in ways and means. Everybodys out there trying to obtain evidence about the contractuality and wrongdoing of the president. We have not initiated a formal impeachment inquiry. We also had a very important epiphany this week when people began to distinguish for the first time impeachment from an inquiry. An inquiry means were going to formalize the process of trying to determine whether there were high crimes and misdemeanors committed. Thats different from articles of impeachment where up have the indictment and we vote on it. Thats the end of the process of the inquiry. The reason you have so Many Democrats saying im for an impeachment inquiry is people are finally distinguishing between the inquiry and articles of impeachment. There are have been a lot you have impeachment inquiries over history that have not led to impeachment. Its a real distinction in terms of the process we follow. So only your committee can have an impeachment inquiry. Whether he does that begin. The congress cos decide to set up a select committee on impeachment. I think we probably would do one within the Judiciary Committee and events are ploofg very quickly as you can tell from what happened today and the kind of conversations going on. But you know, we have a lot of confidence in the chair of our committee, jerry nadler who has been through some of this and zoe lofgren was a staff member during the nixon impeachment and nancy pelosi has also been in congress during some of these. So there are people who have a lot of experience with it. I think if were going to move forward, they will know when the time is right. I know that the membership is very hungry to defend the constitution and the rule of law. We think that democracy is in peril with this president. Jamie raskin, thank you for joining us tonight. Appreciate . Thank you so much, lawrence. When we come back, another crushing defeat for President Trump . A ruling in federal court. Were going to go into that ruling in depth. Court. Were going to go in ttohat ruling in depth. 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The judge ruled the subpoenas from the House Financial Services committee and the Intelligence Committee serve be legitimate legislative purpose, and while undeniably broad is clearly pertinent. The 25page opinion by judge ramos agrees with an opinion issued by a washington, d. C. Federal judge on monday enforcing house subpoenas for trump banking records from the Accounting Firm mazars usa. Judge ramos twice cited judge mehtas opinion delivered monday and said it helped him deliver a speedy opinion today. Judge ramos noted he was able to issue his decision immediately after the arguments were heard in court today because the case was filed three weeks ago so the court had the benefit of the time necessary to thoroughly consider the merits of plaintiffs motion, as well i should note the thorough opinion of judge mehta of the d. C. District court. So the next judge hearing the next trump subpoena blocking lawsuit should be able to act with similar speed by read ath previous judges opinions. The Deutsche Bank records could be a treasure trove that explain everything about Donald Trumps relationship to russia and every kind word donald trump has ever said about Vladimir Putin if the documents show that russian oligarchs close to Vladimir Putin have been in effect cosigners of trump loans at Deutsche Bank or otherwise financially supporting donald trump. Earlier this week, the New York Times reported that ha antimony laundering specialists at Deutsche Bank found multiple suspicion transactions involving accounts tied to donald trump. During the president ial campaign and during the president s first year in office. When we come back from a break, well be joins by adam classfeld who was in the courtroom today as this is drama unfolded and well also be joined by of a member of the House Committee on intelligence whose subpoena for the trump banking records won the day in federal court today. Thats next. Records won the day in federal court today thats next. Leave no man behind. Or child. Or other child. Or their new friend. Or your giant nephews and their giant dad. Or a horse. Or a horses brother, for that matter. The room for eight, 9,000 lb towing ford expedition. Her saturdays are a never ending montage of comfort. [tv sfx] where have you been all my life . But then anne laid on a serta perfect sleeper. And realized her life was only just sorta comfortable. Not just sorta comfortable. Serta comfortable. Not just sorta comfortable. Calyoure gonna love this. Rs. New coppertone sport clear. Not thick, not hot, not messy, just clear, cool, protected. Coppertone sport clear. Proven to protect. 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Raise no serious legal questions, and speed is of the essence. So another i think resounding victory in the District Court that bodes well. Joining us now a member of chairman schiffs committee congressman ra Krishna Moore think. That subpoena was ordered enforced today. Hes also a member of the House Oversight committee and will us adam class feld a reporter for courthouse news who was actually inside that courtroom today as the drama and i do mean drama unfolded. Congressman Krishna Moore think, i want to start with you. Im sure had you confidence your subpoenas would be enforced this way because historically they always have been but it has to be a giant relief not only were they enforced but at very high speed. You rarely see a court act this quickly. The judge literally listened to the arguments, took a 20minute break, came back in and said okay, heres the deal. Yeah, thats correct. I think that as you know, with the mazars ruling earlier this week and now this particular ruling in new york, its clear the courts are unanimous in their sentiment that congress has the authority to conduct oversight and investigations and issue subpoenas and those subpoenas need to be complied with. And so i think there are cracks forming in the trump obstruction strategy and the strategy to try to delay the production of documents, and important testimony that we should have. And hopefully, they come to their senses and start cooperating and producing documents and other testimony in other matters, as well. Adam, todays judge echoed mondays judge saying there was no serious question, thats the phrase they used. No serious question was raise the by the trump side. Right. And what that meant to him since he had the case for three weeks and able to study it, he was ready to issue an opinion unless he heard something from the Trump Lawyers that he didnt know about. Which is why he questioned them very closely. Absolutely. Questioned the house of representatives lawyers very, very closely. But he was ready to go as soon as that argument ended. Absolutely. Now, one thing that i came out of that hearing thinking is dont sit next to this judge across from the judge at a poker table because he didnt let anything on. He went through the entire hearing basically peppering both sides, giving incisive questions, and then he called for that brief recess and he had that opinion ready. He he knew when he was he had carefully considered both sides of it, and it was reflected in his questions. He hit all the points and he raised all of the issues that both of the sides had said, but his continue was withering and it echoed a lot of the language that judge metadid in the d. C. Case, basically saying there was no serious argument, that it may be a serious thing that congress is investigating the president as a control questional understanding of it but there was no serious legal argument raised. Congressman, mondays case is already going to an expedited appeal. So what were seeing in the federal judge who are handling this at the District Court level at the lowest level and then in the appeals level is there seems to be a recognition that this has to be done at the highest speed possible. Thats exactly right. I think that they understand that whats being tested is our oversight power. Lawrence, lets not make any mistake about whats going on here. The Trump Administration, if it were to succeed in this strategy of obstructing oversight in this particular instance, may employ in same strategy in any number of instances throughout our oversight duties in the legislative process whether its immigration or health care or any other matter. And so this is very serious. Im very glad to see what happened and i think the last time a court did not side with congress was in the time of the presidency of rutherford b. Hayes and so lets get on with this. Were going to keep winning in court here. Were going to get these documents eventually. I hope the message is loud and clear to the Trump Administration, its time to cooperate with our oversight powers and start producing documents but also having witnesses come and testify, too. Adam, it was quite striking that in the judges opinion, he twice cited the washington case earlier this week, cited the judge by name in that case, specifically in effect said you know, thanks for the help in doing some of the legal, the same legal scholarship. Absolutely. It was very clear that as soon as the washington opinion came down, the counsel for the house of representatives alerted him to it. So he knew. So the court, the decision comes out in d. C. And the lawyers for the house in that case immediately alert the new york judge you might want to take a look at there. Within moments it hit the docket. Of course we alerted him, too. Theres news everywhere. Everyone watches msnbc. Come on. There was no missing that giant historic news. But he was considering it from the getgo, and that was have an parent. Shadow of the washington opinion just hovered over todays proceedings. You couldnt ignore that sweeping a ruling which created another sweeping ruling. Lawrence, can i jump in one second. The Trump Administration kept throwing up the argument theres no valid legislative purpose behind these subpoenas. And as you can see from judge metas and now judge ramoss rulings, they cited so many legislative potential purposes for seeking these records that its amply clear that that particular argument is not going to win the day for the Trump Administration. For instance, between the mhta and ramos ruling they said we need these records for purposes of strengthening our ethics and disclosure laws and we need to make sure the u. S. Financial system isnt subject to Money Laundering and illicit use of the Financial System that we should be able to know whether theres ongoing wrongdoing in the executive branch and finally, you know, whether from a Counter Intelligence standpoint, payments were made by the russians to President Trump or family members and therefore, that could be the basis for kompromat or manipulation of Trump Officials today. To the endangerment of our national security. So so many purposes were set forth by the judges. Thats precedent that would be used in future cases. Congressman raja Krishna Moore think gets the last word on the subpoena case. Adam classfeld, appreciate you both being here. When we come back, the treasury secretary did not tell the truth to a house hearing today. 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This is my body of proof. New shell vpower nitro premium gasoline is engineered with four levels of defense against gunk, wear, corrosion and friction. That helps keep your Engine Running like new. So, maybe its time to unthink what you think you think about premium fuel. Shell vpower nitro premium gasoline. Its fuel for thought. The day will come when a federal judge tells the secretary of the treasury that he has violated the law. But today, it was congresswoman alma adams turn to tell secretary mnuchin that he violated the law by preventing the irs from handing over Donald Trumps tax returns in compliance with the legal demand by the chairman of the house ways and Means Committee who is the only person in the house of representatives who is legally empowered to examine tax returns and demand tax returns. Congresswoman adams began with this. Do you know how many times that President Trump has publicly offered to release his tax returns . I do not. Well, we should have something on the screen. He has personally offered to give us a glimpse of his tax returns at least 24 times. It was scrolling on the screen. It will probably be back up. It was april 19th, 2011, in an interview when he first said that. He said if president obama would release his birth certificate, he would release his tax returns. Of course, president obama did do what he said he would do and the president did not do what he said he would do. Do you think the American People have a right to know what is in those tax returns . No, i dont. President s are not required to. And the American Public knew that he didnt release them before they voted for him. All right. Im reclaiming my time. Congresswoman adams had to constantly reclaim her time to stop the secretary from filling pup time with empty answers. Then she zero in the on mnuchin illegally blocking the irs from handing over the trump tax returns to the chairman of the ways and Means Committee. Are you aware then that by denying this, that you are in direct violation of the law . No. Absolutely not. I have been advised i am not violating the law. I never would have done anything that violated the law and quite the contrary, ive been advised thatly turned them over let me move on, sir. Today secretary of the treasury in that hearing refused to answer a very, very simple yes or no question. Have you told the irs not to respond to the chairmans request . The irs independently, the chairman independently wrote a letter concurring can you give may yes or no . Have you . Can you repeat the question . Have you told the irs not to respond to the request . Again, i just said the irs independently wrote a letter concurring let me reclaim my time couple of give me a yes or no . I dont understand the question. Okay. You wont give me a yes or no. It was a very simple question. Did you tell the irs commissioner not to respond to chairman kneels request for the trump tax returns whfrl the trump cabinet members are afraid of the truth in a yes or no question, they ask to repeat the question. And then they keep running away from the answer. Ive shown that you before. Weve seen with it the attorney general william barr. Weve seen him do that. Now weve seen secretary mnuchin do that. He did not say no. That leaves only one logical possibility. Yes. Yes, he did. Tell the irs commissioner not to respond to chairman neils demand. And that is another instance of the treasury secretary violating the law. Joining us now is the tax attorney in private practice who was the Trial Attorney in the office of the chief counsel of the Internal Revenue service for 29 years. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. It is really valuable to have your experience here tonight dwhaufl make of the final point where the treasury secretary refused the simple yes or no question of did you direct the irs commissioner to not release those tax returns . Well, i think it is fairly clear that it was probably a yes as an answer. The commissioner, the irs commissioner is required under the code section dealing with the disclosure to the tax writing committees, shall return shall turn over return information when requested by the committee, the tax writing committees chairman. It says shall turn it over. It doesnt say may turn it over or take your time in turning it over or anything of that nature. It is very direct. The commissioner should have turned it over and it is done all the time. They often time request returns and it gets turned over. Obviously, the commissioner in this case must have been communicating not to turn it over and i would suspect maybe the secretary is one that did that or one of his assistants or underlings. In your experience when these requests came to the irs commissioner as they have in the past, was this ever any pause over it . Did the commissioner ever turn to the the council and say should i obey this law . Im not aware of anything like that. As a matter of fact, i received oftentimes letters from the secretarys office requesting some legal information or something of that nature which is passed on to me as the attorney to write an answer and send it back up to the managerial, and then back to the secretary. And returns, most often, and ive never known any not to be turned over because they abided by that code section. And a leaked memo this week, a draft memo from the irs to someone in there, possibly in the councils office, saying basically, exactly what youre saying that this is very simple, black and white law. There is no choice. Well, thats true. Of course, theyre going to take the position that there has to be some underlying privilege or privilege. There is a private policy involved. All of those particular grounds, i guess, would have i think a very, not a very good chance in court. If those sorts of defenses are put forth in a trial. William lawrence, thank you for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Youre welcome. That is tonights last word. 11th hour starts now. Tonight, President Trump gets angry, shows up in the rose garden with stats on poster boards that someone found on the web and now hes saying, we the people wont get any new big ticket items as long as the democrats are investigating him. It was nancy pelosi who apparently triggered the president accusing him of a coverup of a real charge that brought about the angry reaction. And more bad news for the president s tax returns on two different fronts. And amid the talk of impeachment and the lashing out, remember, please, this was infrastructure
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