Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20180505

Youll remember he revealed that the president reimbursed Michael Cohen for the 130,000 hush money payment. There are new details that just broke within the last half ap hour about when the president learned of that payment to Stormy Daniels. According to the New York Times President Trump knew about a six figure payment that michael d. Cohen, his personal lawyer, made to a pornographic film actress several months before he denied any knowledge of it to reporters aboard air force one in april, according to two people familiar with the arrangement. The times reports its not immediately clear exactly when the president learned of the payment that the Michael Cohen made in october of 2016. But, quote, three people close to the matter said mr. Trump new mr. Cohen had succeeded in keeping the allegations from coming public at the time the president denied it. Also breaking, new developments from the wall street journal about Michael Cohens access to cash, the journal reports, he gained access to as much as 774,000 through two Financial Transactions during the campaign as he sought to fix problems for his boss public records show. Those transactions could factor into a broad investigation of his Business Affairs conducted by manhattan prosecutors and the federal bureau of investigation. According to the wall street journal in february of 2016, cohen nearly doubled the amount he could use on a bank credit lined tied to his manhattan apartment. Increasing his ability to borrow by 245,000, three months earlier he gained access to another 529,000 through a new mortgage that he and his wife cosigned on a continuedmin numb owned by her parents at trump world tower. It isnt clear whether Michael Cohen used these sources of cash to settle problems for trump. But sources tell the washington journal, that theyre examining whether or not Michael Cohen committed bank fraud by inflating the value of his assets to obtain loans or m misstating the purpose of his loan. He said he used the line of credit to make the 130,000 hush payment to Stormy Daniels. In an interview this week, Rudy Giuliani said the president had reimbursed Michael Cohen for the Stormy Daniels payment and indicated that trump had reimbursed cohen for other matters as well. Quote, he was paid by Donald Trumps personal funds and he was paid out of personal funds which covered that and possibly a few other things, you know, would be considered incidental. The repayments took place over a period of time, probably in 2017 probably all paid back by the end of 2017 that and probably a few other situations that might have been considered campaign expens expenses. Giuliani also said this week that cohen solved other problems similarly for trump. He didnt describe what they were or the source of funds they were. Joining us is one of the reporters who broke the story on Michael Cohen. Thank you for being with us and thank you for your reporting on this. Whats the implication here. Michael cohen ended uptaking 774,000 combined in home equity loans in the month before the election . Yes. Prosecutors are looking at whether any laws are broken in terms of how Michael Cohen may have gotten access to cash during this period to use to help solve problems for President Trump to keep things quiet, such as the Stormy Daniels payment. Or were any misrepresentations made, as you said, in his in his applications to banks or statements to banks or in terms of what kind of Campaign Finance laws may have been violated. What we found was that well, first of all in november 2015, Michael Cohens inlaws refinanced an apartment and took 529,000 out of the equity from the apartment. And he cosigned the loan for that. So its not clear what happened to that money. But it is unusual in the sense that he had never cosigned a mortgage for their apartment before and the cash was taken out. And then secondly, in february of 2016, which was right as donald trump was entering the republican primaries, he was leading in the polls doing surprisingly well for someone who had no experience, Michael Cohen doubles his home equity line from 255,000 to 500,000 we know he used that home equity line to pay Stormy Daniels two weeks before the election. So the question is was there some kind of slush fund created for Michael Cohen as President Trump rose through the primaries. This is more relevant because Rudy Giuliani went around saying Michael Cohen solved a lot of problems for the president. So this is relevant, is this is slush fund. Yes, he said this Stormy Daniels thing wasnt the only thing he solved for President Trump. There were other things he got repaid for after the election by a retainer, 35,000 a month. So the information is conflicting and people are changing their stories but by and by, as the federal investigation is going on, we are learning more about what happened, and i think within some short period of time we probably will find out even a lot more about what actually happened. Thanks for your happy, michael roth field from the wall street journal. The Washington Post just posted a new story, giuliani tries to clarify repayment to Stormy Daniels. In it the times reports after Rudy Giulianis media tour this week, some advisers said they fear giuliani may have waived his right to assert his conversations with the president are private and government or private lawyers pursuing lawsuits could now seek to interview him. Joining us are Jonathan Alter and deer a laukman, and jennifer rogers, a former federal prosecutor. Shes the executive director of the center for the advancement of integrity at the columbia law school. Let me start with you, jennifer, going back to Michael Cohen may be establishing a slush fund or bringing in money he may have used to pay things off for donald trump, in the state of new york thats not actually legal. Lawyers cant go around settling things for cline clients with their own personal money. Its not a crime but its an ethical violation. Youll get in trouble with the bar for doing that. Thats a problem for Michael Cohen to the extent his law practice goes. You and i were talking about this beforehand. A lot of this stuff starts to weave its in a narrative that people believe. There are a lot of people dont believe donald trump could not have known. He didnt pay people small amounts of money, theres no way hundreds of thousands of dollars could be paid on his behalf without him knowing. Youre right. And we have this week confirmation of things that many people believed to be true. Looking back a week ago. We have the forbes 400 saying donald trump inflated his wealth wildly, presented to be worth 500 million, when he was only worth 5 million, and we have his doctor saying i never wrote that letter saying he would be the healthiest person. And now we have giuliani saying the president knew and he paid that back which is contrary to what the president said before, just last month, and then he confirmed it on twitter yesterday, appeared to walk it back today. But you have a situation where your credibility is lost if youre constantly changing your story. What is this about, jonathan, its chaos, but the whole thing is perplexing. Giuliani was brought in theory not just as a political adviser but to be his lawyer and wring some resolution as to whether the president is going to sit down with Robert Mueller or be subpoenaed to talk to Robert Mueller. This doesnt look like the way you solve a problem. To say that Rudy Giuliani is rusty would be underestimating the situation. He hasnt been a prosecutor in more than 30 years. Hes been in politics and he has really no experience with this kind of white collar defense at this level and showed it in the first couple of days and ticked off his client as you can tell from the president s comments. Whats surprising is when people say, i wasnt surprised trump wrote that letter, he inflated his wealth, he knew about the payment of Stormy Daniels. It has the net effect of normalizing trump, which has been the great challenge is to not just take it for granted that the president of the United States is a confirmed liar. That shouldnt be a dog bites man story. Right. We should continue to have a sense of outrage about this, but sustaining that outrage over a four year period is going to be hard. After everything that was laid out about what donald trump said and what giuliani said, trump then this morning said to reporters that giuliani needs to get his facts straight. Lets listen to this in the president s words. Ill tell you what, rudy is a great guy but he just started a day ago. But he really has his heart into it, hes working hard, hes learning the subject matter. And hes going to be issuing a statement, too, but he is a great guy. He started yesterday. Hell get his facts straight. Hes a great guy. I will tell you this, i will tell you this, when rudy made the statement, rudys great, but rudy had just started and he wasnt totally familiar with everything. And Rudy Giuliani did release a statement this afternoon. Heres part of it. He said first there is no Campaign Violation the payment was made to resolve a personal and false allegation in order to protect the president s family. It would not have been done in new it would have been done in any event whether it was a conditioned or not second my references to timing were not describing the president s knowledge, but instead my understanding of these matters. Rudy giuliani in the same interview in which he said this wasnt a Campaign Violation said, can you imagine if this had come out right before the election. The implication again to what everybody else in the country thinks Rudy Giuliani said that was the case. Now hes walking that back. If youre a prosecutor in this thing, this is too easy. Its interesting. So if the prosecutors are looking into this, if they want to make this Campaign Violation count, they will look at these things, they will have them in the arsenal for inconsistent statements and so on and they know what the defense is going to be. But theyll really make the case with the facts. Theyll look at how the money was obtained, when, who paid who, who knew what based on the communications with the witnesses. They dont build this case with nonsense of the back and forth going around and they have these to have a little fun with. Michael avenatti, this is a civil case, but hes having some fun with it. Hes enjoying the fact that everybody who needles either Rudy Giuliani or the president gets something out of it. I talked to Michael Avenatti today about this, and the thing that you have behind you, trumps tangled web is, of course, a reference to him quoting Sir Walter Scott on twitter saying what a tangled web we weave. He is saying this is about deception. He said he and his client, Stormy Daniels are leaning back and enjoying this. They describe giuliani as dazed and confused, and the deeper they go into it, the better it makes ms. Daniels case or ms. Clifford her real name. Its not just the potential Campaign Violation, ethics violations. Lets not forget one of the most important things Rudy Giuliani said in that interview was he said President Trump fired james comey over the russia investigation. The latter part of that line is what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive. These guys arent practicing much. Its more like the keystone cops or keystone criminals. They didnt get the memo on how to lie. So this is what weve seen unfold this week. They did get good news this week. Theres a judge in the Paul Manafort case, judge ellis, who rebuked Robert Mueller and his team and said theyre out to hurt the president. We dont know whether thats an indication of which way theyll move, throw the case out or do something unfavorable to the government. This is a story thats not going to be all bad news for the president. He had good polls too. He was very quick to quote judge ellis when he got to the nra. This all happened early this morning. I wanted to go back to you jennifer, on the legality of it. It doesnt seem like theyve all practiced it. Giuliani over night to nbc news described his conversation with donald trump about the cohen reimbursements, i dont know why hes talking about this stuff to the news media, in an interview with nbc news giuliani insisted he only shared the details to daniels of the payment to daniels with trump about a week ago. I dont think the president realized he paid him back for that specific thing until we his legal team made him aware of the paperwork hp he said the president responded oh, my goodness thats what thats for. Oh, my goodness doesnt sound like the president to me. Why are we hearing these conversations . Theyre lawyers and often are pr and spokes people. Just because youre sharing a conversation with your client doesnt mean youre waiving privilege for all reasons. It may be something they decided the lawyer is going to be the spokesperson, there are good reasons for not having the client speak all the time. It doesnt mean that privilege is waived but why they decided as a strategic matter that these are things that should shared is beyond me. To jonathans point it doesnt seem to be in order. The narrative is not clear. Its very incoherent. Its not the Communications Strategy you would want. Thanks to you guys. Stick around. I want to bring in Washington Post editor ruth marcus. And jean robinson. Ruth, what do you make of these, Rudy Giuliani put on the table for scrutiny how this went down between the president , Michael Cohen, and Stormy Daniels. I dont know that he helped the president s cause much. Thats a very restrained way of describing the premier of the giuliani story. I mean, when the president is out there cleaning up after his lawyer, that kind of has things a little bit backwards. I think theres two different questions here. One is the Public Relations aspect to the question and one is the legal aspect. As a Public Relations matter, these constantly shifting stories and unraveling tales and the New York Times story that says the president had known for months about the payment to Stormy Daniels, duh its a great story congratulations to my friends at the New York Times but thats the only narrative that really makes any sense. But question whether people in the public who arent already completely kas pe rated with the president s relationship with the truth are going to be moved by any of this. As a legal matter its less completely clear to me the implications of this go make donald trump and the people around him life worse materially worse than they were before all of these allegations. Theres, you know, a conspiracy case, theres questions about Michael Cohens handling of client funds and Bank Statements and things like that. All of this is a big, big mess, but im not sure it makes the legal mess that much measurier. Eugene, for those of us trying to piece this story together, you have the president saying what hes saying, at least in opposition to what Michael Avenatti and Stormy Daniels are saying about these payments, then you have giuliani coming out contradicting the president , the president contradicting him. But then Michael Cohen, i dont know why hes talking either. Talked to donny dutch, he then went on morning joe to describe it. Lets listen to that conversation. That was this morning. I spoke with Michael Cohen yesterday and he doesnt know what Rudy Giuliani is talking about. He said there are two people that know what happened, myself and the president. Youll be hearing my side of the story. He was obviously very frustrated what came out yesterday. My side of the story, thats what i wanted to get clear. Is the president trying to keep Michael Cohen from telling my side of the story . Whos on whose side right now . This is just a wild guess. I would guess that Michael Cohen probably knows things that donald trump doesnt want made public, right . Doesnt want him to tell. Now, i dont know what those things are. I dont know if they have to do with Stormy Daniels or other things, there could be things about the Stormy Daniels affair that many cohen knows and trump knows and trump doesnt want to get out. You know, but and i think Michael Cohen, through donny dutch was kind of reminding everybody, im over here, i have a story to tell too. Meanwhile, you have the extraordinary situation as ruth eluded to of the president essentially devising his own legal communication strategy. At times not even bothering to let his lawyers know what this is. Certainly not cueing in his new lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, as to exactly what the script is supposed to be. This is you know, this is a he has a hes representing himself. So he has a fool for a client. This is ridiculous and he will only get himself in more trouble, not less trouble, by continuing this way, i think. Jennifer rogers, as a federal prosecutor, what do you make of the idea that maybe Michael Cohen was, you know, facing the pressure from federal prosecutors and maybe deciding he was going to cooperate, and this was a signal. The idea that donald trump paid Michael Cohen back was meant to say Michael Cohen didnt do something of his own accord that was illegal so dont flip on us. Does that make sense . Its hard to say. The decision to cooperate is personal to each person, it depends on your personal situation, your family situation, the time youre facing. Its a personal factor. I have no idea whats going on in his head. For him being willing to say that guy doesnt know what hes saying here shows frustration. The fact hes speaking out shows hes not happy with staying quiet. Whether he flips will depend on a lot of things. Well find out when we see the charges against him. The judge in california, in a separate case declined to act there because he said he expected at some point in the near future, Michael Cohen will be indicted. How do you see it playing . I dont think giuliani helped his client. When he came on board, he was going to have this case wrapped up in two weeks. He said that. Not only has that not happened, hes taken the president in deeper. He compared the fbi to nazi storm troopers. This is shocking coming from the mayor of New York Post 9 11, a former prosecutor, to hear him calling the fbi stormtroopers, i dont think that plays well. And the things hes done has given more ammunition to the side against trump. We saw citizens for ethics in washington filed their complaint to the doj and the office of ethics demanding an investigation based on everything he said in one fox news interview. He has not been helping the president s case unless theres some strange strategy we dont understand. Mayor giuliani said something that has not gotten a lot of notice to fox, he suggested that Robert Mueller did not have the authority to subpoena the president , and that is really a remarkable assertion if they decide to go down that road, because after the criminal case against president nixon, the subpoena was for tapes not for his testimony, certainly back in the day when ken starr subpoenaed bill clinton, there was not a question about whether u. S. Versus nixon and whether the case in which the Supreme Court, the paula jones case said the president could be civilly sued, there was not a real question about the ability of the prosecutor to subpoena a president. Right. The ability to indict the president is something different. So if either i dont know if giuliani was with the program on that, whether that signals, you know, the potential for long, drawn out litigation with the special counsel on that subject or whether this was just another one of his off the cuff, unauthorized remarks, but its pretty interesting. You bring up a good point there. Weve seen subpoenas for je jefferson for documents, nixon for tapes, clinton for testimony. Back in 1974 when nixon was asked to present himself i think Washington District court, that went to court and resolved in three months. Nixon resigned so its moot. We never tested the idea of a subpoena of a sitting president makes it to the Supreme Court. A lot of lawyers i talked to said it cant happen. But it seems it can. The lawyer had the tapes, so he didnt push the point of subpoenaing president nixon. He had enough evidence with the tapes. And they knew it months before nixon resigned. Jimmy carter testified twice in two cases when he was president. So its likely if this went to the Supreme Court that the Supreme Court would say yes, the president is not above the law, he must respond to a subpoena. The question is what would happen then . I think the best predictions are that the president of the United States would take the fifth. Eugene he can take the fifth, agree to a sitdown where his lawyers are going to be present. I think most people agree donald trump going in front of a grand jury without his lawyers near him are going to be disastrous for donald trump. Every person deserves a lawyer, donald trump deserves a lawyer. If i were one of his lawyers, if he had to sit down with an interview with mueller, i would tell him to take the fifth because hes just a loose cannon, is a very sort of minimalist way of saying what donald trump is off the cuff, and he can only dig himself a deeper and deeper hole, including all sorts of stuff that mueller doesnt know about. It would be, i think, a disaster. Even worse than the political disaster of a sitting president sitting down for an interview and taking the fifth to everything. Its worth noting, mueller knows a lot so the president talking off the cuff and contradicting what mueller already knows to be true could get the president in a lot of hot water. Everyone please stay with us. Coming up Paul Manaforts appearance in trumps tangled web. Manafort may have been the one in court but as jonathan was saying it was still all about donald trump and his impeachment. Later how john kelly went from calling the president an idiot, reportedly. Everything is going phenomenally well. Money manags are pretty much the same. But while some push High Commission investment products, everything is going phenomenally well. Everything is going phenomenally well. T. Everything is going phenomenally well. O. Everything is going phenomenally well. Everything is going phenomenally well. T. Everything is going phenomenally well. Ehi. 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And today in federal court a judge overseeing the case against Paul Manafort in the Eastern District of virginia seemed to boofs trumps case. Manaforts attorneys are trying to get the charges of bank fraud dismissed arguing mueller overstepped the bounds of the investigation. Judge ellis said he thinks the special counsel wants to squeeze manafort for information that, quote, would reflect on mr. Trump or lead to his impeachment. Ellis then opined that the person people do not want a special counsel with unfettered power. By the time President Trump landed in dallas he read the news and used it on stage at his nra speech. Just when im walking on the stage, a highly respected judge in virginia made statements, wall street journal it says judge questions muellers authority to prosecute manafort. Judge ellis, who is Something Special i hear from my standpoints, a respected person, suggested the charges before the u. S. District court for the Eastern District of virginia were part of the muellers teams designs to pressure mr. Manafort to giving up information against donald trump or others in the campaign. Ive been saying that for a long time. Its a witch hunt. We have room at the table for one more. Pull up a chair ken dilanian. We have at the Court Hearing today. Ken, this is interesting. I think what our viewers are going to be curious about, was this a judge who was on pining or was he really talk about how he might rule in this . Thats the big question. A lot of legal observers i talked to think its more ono pining. Representing Robert Mueller was one of the most accomplished appellate lawyers in the country, appeared more than 100 times in the Supreme Court, he barely got a word out before the judge started yelling questions about how these Bank Fraud Charges against manafort could be collusion, raises questions about a 10 million budget. This is a judge with qualms of a special counsel with an unlimited budget rooting around and going after the president. That said it doesnt mean hes going to grant Paul Manaforts motion to dismiss the charges, which is a real long shot legal experts say. Its possible, its conceivable he may say this exceeds your mandate and this is a case properly handled by the u. S. Attorney in the Eastern District. I want to go to ruth marcus on this. Route, donald trump, whether or not the argument that judge ellis put forward that americans dont want a special prosecutor with unfettered powers, donald trump went to work trying to denigrate the mueller team. Listen to what he said at the nra. In all fairness, bob mueller worked for obama for eight years. You look at the statements that were made. If you take a look, as an example, at the Rod Rosenstein letter to me prior to the firing of james comey just read it. The president spoke three times today, that was before the nra. He was doing a lot of talking. But the point is the president continues with the narrative of mueller as democrat erranddoer. The fact is bob mueller is a republican who worked in the Bush Administration as well. Right. He said witch hunt multiple times in multiple appearances today. I want to say one thing about his comments about judge ellis. What i love about the president s view of the judiciary, im being sarcastic there, is that his view of a judge depends on whether the judge rules for him or against him. If you rule against him youre a socalled judge and a disgraceful judge. And if you rule for him youre the Second Coming of Oliver Wendell holmes. So what is the president going to say about judge ellis if, as ken suggests, he allows the charges to go ahead . It strikes me the worst that can happen in the mueller case is the manafort charges are transfeotranfrance f transferred to the Eastern District and it can cause trouble for the president just as the cohen can cause problems for the president. I think hes really ramped it up over the past couple days, im going to use a trump word, theyre disgraceful. Mueller is a republican, there are democrats on his staff but theyre all seasoned professional prosecutors and theres no reason or basis to question their legitimacy or bias. I want to make a point, judge ellis was in no way impugning the mueller investigation, he was not saying it was a witch hunt, im not sure he anticipated how his words would reverberate and how the president would use them. He was making a legal argument to a Legal Community about the special counsel. He was not arguing this was a witch hunt. Jennifer rogers, what do you make of it . What do you make of what judge ellis is saying . It would be hard to think anything you wouldnt say about donald trump wouldnt be reverberated around the world. They do sometimes do that, judges. Ive been in courtrooms where the judge has complained about policy of the u. S. Attorneys office, im seeing too many cases like this, its often judges who used to be in the office so theyre picking at the policies of their old place of employment. In this case its surprising that the judge wouldnt understand the play this was going to get and how it was going to be used. I think he said it with a purpose, probably. Enough of a purpose if you were one of those lawyers, usa versus manmanafort, would that scare you . I dont think thats hes go dismiss the case. The motion is a jurisdictional motion. I think he made those comments understanding that they were going to be heard and they would be used for some reason. So judge ellis is he turns 78 in a couple weeks. Hes been on senior status for more than 10 years. He bale retired years ago. And one thing that he did not mention is that Rod Rosenstein signed off on this. This is the mueller team didnt just expand the scope of its investigation on its own. The person the Deputy Attorney general gave them permission to do so. So its a little hard to see what the judges legal reasoning would be to say that they had overstepped their bounds since thats the job of that Deputy Attorney general. I want to say its not just judge ellis and this particular point here. Theres more to the manafort investigation that has come out this week. First of all we know the ukraine has stopped cooperating with the manafort investigation once the u. S. Offered and decided to sell weapons to ukraine. Thats significant. We also know now the mueller team has questioned a russian billionaire who was on the sanctions list. They dont seem to be particularly interested in him specifically but possible in his ties to manafort. So this is more than judge ellis, lets be honest, i dont think any of us believe that donald trump had heard of judge ellis before these clips were handed to him because as ruth said its about are you on his side or no on his side. Its not about the legal understanding here. But lets not forget the manafort investigation has a bigger picture. Theres a lot more were waiting to hear some other shoes drop. Thank you to all of you. Coming up, donald trump may have lavished praise on his chief of staff in front of the cameras but new reporting says donald trump is relying less and less on john kelly and taking matters into his own hands. burke at farmers, weve seen almost everything so we know how to cover almost anything. Even close claws. driver so, we took your shortcut, which was a bad idea. [cougar growling] passenger what are you doing . driver i cant believe that worked. I dropped the keys. burke and we covered it. 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Go like a pro. Our friday night look at trumps tangle web continues and perhaps no area is more tangled than trying to follow the Trump Administration employment chart. Look at how rachels wall has grown over the course of the trump presidency, trying to keep track of everyone fired. When the boss donald trump praises you its not necessarily a good thing. Here he is today. I want to just tell you something, general kelly is doing a fantastic job. There has been such false reporting about our relationship. We have a great relationship. Hes doing a great job as chief of staff. I could not be more happy. So i just want to tell you that. Now in march it was trumps legal team that was doing a great job. We treated the failing New York Times purposefully wrote a false story stating that i am unhappy with my legal team on the russia case and am going to add another lawyer to help me out. Wrong im very happy with my lawyers. They are doing a great job. Well, we all know how that turned out. John dowd and ty cobb are out, donald trump hired the lawyer that he said he wouldnt hire emmet flood. And today donald trump said white house chief of staff john kelly is doing a great job praising him after a week in which nbc broke the bombshell news that kelly referred to trump as, quote, an idiot multiple times. The New York Times have added yesterday theyve grown tired with each other. And politico reported that kelly has been marginalized by the staff. But despite that, john kelly is willing to publically admire him. Here he is. The New York Times times has falsely reported, i just wanted to tell you that. General you may have something to say. Its a privilege to work for a president whos gotten the economy going, were about to have a break through on north korea, the jobs report today, everything is going phenomenally well, attacking the opioid crisis. Its nothing less than brilliant to whats been accomplished in 15 months. 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It was only one bank that could finance a project this difficult and this large, and that was citi. Preserving Affordable Housing preserves communities. So we are doing their kitchens and their flooring and their lobbies and the grounds. And the beautification of their homes, giving them pride in where they live, will make this a Thriving Community once again. Hes doing a great job as chief of staff. I could not be more happy. So i just want to tell you that. Its nothing less than brilliant whats been accomplished in 15 months, i believe. We are back with our panel, ruth marcus, eugene robinson, and Jonathan Alter. Ruth, help me unpack the nothing less than brilliant. There is no White House Communications director. The president , we dont see his chief of staff with him all that often. We saw him today. The president very clearly didnt tell the White House Press secretary about giulianis plans. Emmet flood, the lawyer that the president has now hired who represented bill clinton in his impeachment didnt know that giuliani was going on tv, but its brilliant. Nothing less than brilliant. Nothing less than brilliant. Is there something more than brilliant . Im going for a really high brow literary reference here, and im going to say this is the cat in the hat presidency. You may recall the cat in the hat comes back. The cat takes a bath in the tub and he leaves a pink ring. And as they try to clean it up, it just spreads and praespreads stains everything. President trumps messes im glad you liked it. President trumps messes end up staining everything, and they spread, and everybody who associates with him, i cant think of a single exception except for maybe the defense secretary, james mattis. Everybody who is associated with donald trump ends up having his or her reputation diminished as a result and, hence general kelly, exhibit a today. Eugene, neil cavuto, on fox, i think said, that stink, mr. President , is your swamp. Even though in conservative circles are starting to think this is too crazy to continue. Well, its too crazy to continue. Look, cavuto, you know, was referring to all the swampishness, the very deep and getting deeper water thats around this administration. You look at the pruitt situation at epa. Its like a new scandal every day, the latest being the reports that scott pruitt came into the office and gathered the staff and said here are some places around the world id really like to see, so find me reasons to go there. So thats how he works out his travel on the public dime. Thats okay in trump world apparently if, when you appear with the president , you do what john kelly just did, which is flatter him with praise that would, you know, embarrass kim jongun. I mean, you know, dear leaderstyle praise, and thats the sort of price of staying in the administration and having power in the administration. Yeah. And beyond that, you can do what you want. Weve seen it in cabinet meetings before. But, in fact, to the scott pruitt point, this is remarkable what yao gene was talking about. Evidence that scott pruitt had a list of exotic destinations he wanted to travel to and informed staff he wanted them to find reasons for him to go to those places. But scott pruitt and Mick Mulvaney and others in the government are doing exactly what donald trump wants them to do. They are dismantling regulations. The stock market, though weak recently, has been strong. The jobs numbers are still pretty good, and this north korea meeting, if it happens, is going to be an accomplishment. The fact is the president still seems to think hes doing well. In fact, he had a bluster and a confidence about him today that i hadnt seen in a while. Well, unemployment is down to levels we havent seen since 2000. So he can say to his people, to his base, i am delivering for you in certain ways. Notwithstanding those are continuations of policies weve seen for years. Right. But, you know, i think that ruth was too kind to him with the cat in the hat reference. I mean donald trump makes the cat in the hat look like Abraham Lincoln with his top hat, you know. This is a toxic waste dump, and i think that comey, who was wrong in a lot of areas, had it right that its, you know, a forest fire. So the best that we can hope for is to start planning for what we do after, whether its three years or, you know, seven years or whatever. But we need to start figuring out how we restore our democracy after the damage thats being done. And literally on a daily basis. And the first thing are these midterm elections. So im struck by how theres really not enough focus yet on how we remedy this at the polling place. Thank you, Jonathan Alter, ruth marcus, and eugene robinson. Thanks to the three of you. Tonights last word is next. Once there was an organism so small no one thought much of it at all. People said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. They thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldnt that be cool . And thats why exxonmobil scientists think its not small at all. Energy lives here. Let your inner light loose with one a day womens. A complete multivitamin specially formulated with key Nutrients Plus vitamin d for bone health support. Your one a day is showing. My time is thin, but so is my lawn. Now theres new scotts thick r lawn 3in1 solution. With a soil improver seed and fertilizer to feed now yard time is our time. This is a scotts yard. Now yard time is our time. Or a canythingo. But ive got an idea sir. Get domo. Itll connect us to everything thats going on in the company. Get it for jean whos always cold. For the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. Give us the data we need. In one place, anywhere we need it. Help us do our jobs better. With domo we can run this place together. Well thats thats your job i guess. Its been a week since comedian Michelle Wolf excoriated the press for accepting statements from the Trump Administration that often turn out not to be true. But something seems to have changed, especially after Rudy Giulianis comments about the president and payments to Stormy Daniels. Heres our last word for this very busy week. When did you specifically know that the president repaid mr. Cohen for the 130,000 . You personally. 130,000 paid to Stormy Daniels, why the president was not truthful with the American People and the people in this room. These are statements that are just not true. Were you lying to us at the time or were you in the dark . Did the president file a fraudulent personal financial discloc disclosure when he filed a report that did not include a loan from Michael Cohen . I dont know. Thats tonights last word. Congressman Eric Swalwells reacts to President Trumps statements today on the mueller investigation. Thats next on the 11th hour with brian williams, which starts now. Breaking tonight from the New York Times, donald trump knew about Michael Cohens payment to Stormy Daniels well before his denial last month on air force one. One of the reporters who broke this story is standing by with details. Plus new from the wall street journal tonight, Michael Cohen secured access to as much as 774,000 during the trump president ial campaign. All of it revealed just hours after the president said Rudy Giuliani would get his facts straight. The 11th hour on a friday night begins now. Good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. Im Steve Kornacki in for brian williams. Day 470 of the Trump Administration. We have breaking news from the New York Times about when trump had knowledge of the sixfigure hush money payment to Stormy Daniels. One of the authors of that story, matt