The Senate Debate today was thoughtful and well reasoned on both sides. And left very few of us undecided. This program has been and remains one of the most vitalle tools in the war against terrorists. Today, the trofrian and damning torture report was finally released. This is the result. 40 million, 5 1 2 year, and this is only the summary. Let me now turn to the contents of the study. Gruesome details on what was done in the name of intelligence gather popping. This was done in our name, the American Peoples name. Detainees were often subject to harsh and brutal interrogation. Stripped naked, diapered, physically struck, constantly shackled in isolated cells. They were deprived of sleep for days. These harsh techniques were not approved by anyone ever. This program was morally, legally and administraively misguided. The detention and Interrogation Program was conceived by people who were ignorant of the topic and made it up on the fly. Its use was shameful and unnecessary. It produced little useful intelligence. Theres also fear the report itself could spark a backlash against the United States. Yes, i suppose thats possible. But i guess theres no good time to do things like this. We fight to defend our security, we fight also for an idea. Our ownmys act without conscious. United states senatorings take an oath. Today the senate took a bipartisan stand against domestic enemies of the constitution. Enemies of the constitution do not have to be people. The constitution is an idea. A memo can be an enemy of the constitution. Domestic enemies of the constitution are the most dangerous enemies of the constitution because they have access to it. Especially enemies of the constitution residing inside the government. Senator feinstein exposed the ci as new extinct enhanced interrogation techniques. A term which senator Jay Rockefeller said was the ci as sanitized term for commercials. The conclusions will make clear how this program was morally, legally and administratively misguided. The executive summary released today included 20 findings of techniques that were, quote, brutal and far worse, and, quote, the doctor ia enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or cooperation from detainees. The report also found that the cia used techniques that were not approved by the department of justice or authorized by cia headquarters and that the ci as management of its detention and Interrogation Program was deeply flawed. And that the cia impeded oversight in the cia inspector general, the white house, and the congress. Barack obama responded tonight. The findings in the Intelligence Report were brutal. And it constituted torture. Its not who we are. Its about potential ramifications overseas and weve taken precautionary steps to try to mitigate any additional risks. I think it was important for us to release this so that we can account for it so people understand precisely why i banned these practices as one of the first acts i took when i came to office. Heres a sample of the details about cia interrogation inclurded in the report. Cia detainees, particularly thosed to standing sleep deprivation were routinely placed in diapers. A waste bucket was removed from the cell for punishment according to a cia cable. Hazeem requested a bucket in which he could relieve himself but was told all rewards must be earned. They discussed rectal hydration as a means of behavior control. As one officer wrote while iv infusion is safe and effect, we were impressed with the ancillary effectiveness of the rectal infusion. The same officer provided a description of the proceduriting that, regarding the rectal tube, if you place it and open up the iv tubing, the flow will cell regulate, sloshing up the sbeps tins. The officer wrote that, what i infer is that you get a tube up as far as uh you can then open the iv wide. As described in the context of the rectal feeding, ensure was infeuded in a in regardfacing position with head lower than torso. The lunch trey consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins were pure rayed and rectally infused. Senator Jay Rockefeller who served as vice chairman of the committee in 2003 said that congress was not fully briefed on the program. The chairman and vice chairman, give them a flip chart, 45 minutes with the Vice President and off we go. Senator roberts and i went down by car and were instructed we couldnt talk to each other on the way back from one of those meetings. It was absurd. Questions or follow up requests were rejected and at times i was not allowed to consult with my counsel. Im not a lawyer. There are legal matters involved here. They said we couldnt talk to any of our staff, Legal Counsel or not. Or other members of the kmiet te who knew nothing about this because they had not balanced budget informed at all. It was clear that these briefings were not meant to answer any questions but were intended to only to provide cover for the administration and the cia. It was infuriaing to me to realize that i was part of a check box exercise that the administration planned to use and later did use so they could disingenuously claim that they had, quote, in a phrase that i will never be able to forget, fully briefed the congress. Joining me now is Michael Davidson who served as minority counsel for the Senate Select committee on intelligence for 2003 to 2006. Mr. Davidson, you served under Jay Rockefeller on the committee. You just heard him talking there about this the way the administration handled socalled briefing of congress. I worked for a senator who was once on the Intelligence Committee, senator moynihan who had his own problems with the cia. He and Barry Goldwater had bipartisan objections to the way the cia was misleading them on actions in central america. So this challenge that senators have of trying to get real information out of the cia is not now. Its definitely not new. But its ground that has been very important to cover in the past and obviously was critical here and one thing that was especially unique about this situation is that the government secrets didnt have to do with Something Like is a raid that was happening the next day or the next week in which there was time sensitive information, but about a program that wept on for years and years in which the congress was being asked to fund unwittingly. Senator lindsay graham, a republican who supports the release of this report, supports the findings in it along with republican john mccain said that he plooefs this happened out of fear. The ci as motivation for doing this was oit of fear after 9 11, what he considered an understandable fear. He thinks it was done by well meaning people, and it got out of control. In your peerns with the cia, would that be your impression of how this happened . I think theres probably an element of that. But theres also a fear of criticism. And fear of being called to yours truly. And being asked hard questions. And that can never be a defensible basis for keeping the congress uninformed about something as basic as this. There is a disagreement on the Senate Floor Today between senator even if stein and senator chambliss who is the republican leader on the intelligence kmiet te. Senator which i am bliss seems to be saying there was indeed intelligence obtained through these torture methods that among other things led to finding osama bin laden. Senator feinstein says absolutely not. How are we to sort that out . Perhaps the way to sort it out is first to carefully examine what the factual basis was of the Senate Report today to the extent that the committee was permitted to lay it out. But to also recognize that there is about 6,000 other pages of careful examination of a record that is now available to the government. Some of it may not be Public Information for some time, probably in the course of time more of it can be, but all of it is now in the possession of the executive branch and of the white house and can be a teaching tool within the government for years to come. Michael davidson, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you. Were joined now by glen greenwald, the cofounding editor of the intercept. Glenn, youve anticipated a lot of what is in this report today, but now we have the actual documents. A lot of the documents, a lot of memos, a lot of emails. A lot of what was going on here. And with senator rockefellers description of how much misleading was going on for years with the cia, i think we can all now see the pentup frustrations on that committee trying to see what the cia was really doing here. Whats your reaction of what was released to you had . Today . Theres no question the cia systematically lied to the congress and therefore the American People including the top officials at the agency. But at the same time, lawrence, ive been writing about torture for almost ten year nous. And although there are some new details in this report, its been very well known for a long time in washington that the cia was brutally torturing people, not just at guantanamo, but at bagram and the entire american prison system as part of the war on terror. And for a long time, members of congress, the media, even the american population, more or less act acquiesced to it. Its a reckoning nor all of us, not just that agency. I think prior to today, it was certainly hard to get at this kind of fact base, but i think youre right, there wasnt a lot of eagerness to look into it. Lets listen to what senator chambliss said today on the senator floor. Everyone must remember that the cia was directed to conduct this program by the president. I have spoken with a number of cia officers over the years who remember the contentious debates about the program at the time it was being considered. But at the end of the day, the agency did what the president directed them to do. Under color of law and based upon opinions issued and jut dated by the department of justice. But glenn, in the documents today, we discovered that the president didnt know as much about this, one, when it was first getting under way, didnt know as much about it apparently for possibly a number of years while it was going on. Right. The cia has been a rogue agency for decades. I mean, it more or less exists beyond the realm of democratic accountability. And i think a lot of people in washington like it that way. They get to do the dirty work. But, you know, again, lawrence, george bush was proud of the fact anticipate said in his memoirs that he actually approved waterboarding. Dick cheney said the same thing. Some of the details about brutality and salve anlry that they probably didnt know about, but i think on some level they probably wanted it that way. And all senator chambliss is saying is george bush and those who supported these with culpable as war criminals. We have treaties who say you can not torture even if theres a justification for it. Otherwise everyone would use that excuse. The thing about what the senate was doing today, theyre doing everything they can to make sure this doesnt happen again. By going public like this and getting that report out there, it is saying to the current cia and saying to the next 20 years of people going into the cia, were going to be on you. A few decades down the line or at some point down the line, this is going to come up again in the cia. Theres going to be some kind of terrorist threat where this kind of question comes up again. What kind of tactics should we use now that weve been hit in this way or now that we face this challenge . And i think what the senators are trying to do today was lay this marker down in such a way that they will always remember. Their chants today, their Bumper Sticker today was never again. I agree with you about their intent and it was commendable. Im glad they did it. At the same time, the United States imprisons more of citizens than any other country. We believe if we dont punish people for crimes we cant deter it. I think one of the biggest dis appointments or errors of the last six years was protecting these torturers from being prosecuted, not withstanding the political cost it would have had. But i do think its a hard question. If the message was sent if you torture, you wont be prosecuted. We just converted it into a policy debate. Republicans go on tv on sunday shows and say it was necessary for National Security. And democrats say it wasnt. Its not just a spoil debate, its a crime. Its a crime under our statutes and our treaties. And i wish it had been treated as that. It seems like the two agreements that exist across the parties in washington tonight, glenn, are they should not prosecute anyone involved in having done this on the belief that they had good intentions going going in and then secondly, we should absolutely never do it again. There wasnt one defender saying lets preserve this right. Were out of time. Glenn greenwald, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Coming up, senator jay rock dpeler says that the cia program was managed incompetently by senior officials and not very many senior officials and that waterboarding was not the worst of it. Thats next. And there was another killing by new York City Police last night. One bullet ended the life of a suspect and yes, this time, there is video. What the ramifications might be that the lines of accountability that needed to be set up werent always in place. Can fit into it. The ford cmax hybrid. With an epaestimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. And all the room you need to enjoy the trip. Go stretch out. Go further. Here we go, here we go, here we go. Fifty omaha set hut losing feeling in my toes nothing beats that new car smell chicken parm you taste so good nationwide is on your side mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm which means its timeson for the volkswagen signthendrive event. For practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. And the 2015 motor trend car of the year allnew golf. If youre wishing for a new volkswagen this season. Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. My baby drove up in a brand new cadillac. My baby drove up in a brand new cadillac. Look here, daddy, im never coming back. Discover the new spirit of cadillac and the best offers of the season. Lease this 2015 standard collection ats for around 329 a month. What the ramifications might be that the lines of accountability that needed to be set up werent always in place. Thats about the most diplomatic way you could describe a program that was out of control. Understandable, of course, because the president has to work with the cia every day. The president is, in fact, on the organizational chart, the executive head of all those departments including the cia. Its understandable he talks about it today. The senators on the senate floor were much more blunt. More of that next. [ inhales ] [ male announcer ] at cvs health, we took a deep breath. [ inhales, exhales ] [ male announcer ] and made the decision to quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. Now we invite smokers to quit, too, with our comprehensive program. We just want to help everyone, everywhere, breathe a little easier. Introducing cvs health. Because health is everything. They made it up on the fly based on the untested theories of contractors who had never met a terrorist or conducted a real world investigation of any kind. Second, it was executed by personnel with insufficient lynn wisic and interrogation training and little, if any, real world experience. Joining me now is the National Security reporter for the huffington post. What strikes me about what senator rockefeller says there is no one contests that. The senator chambliss who stood up with some disagreements on the senate floor does not contest these kinds of mistakes were made and this was the kind of personnel running this thing. Yeah, and its difficult, lawrence, when you read through this report to even attempt to make that case. In the first few pages were confronted with the kind of mismanagement that really pervaded through this program. You know, whether it was the doctor ia ignoring internal critique, whether it was disregarding warnings that came from field officials to medical professionals. Its very difficult to kind of build a defense. We know that the republicans and the agency have both issued their own rebuttals to the study. Then we page through the case, its difficult to challenge the notion that the program was mismanaged. You know, this was based on documents, emails, memos at the time, and john rizzo was actually on cnn tonight and was asked a question about one of the emails that he wrote. And actually said he couldnt quite remember about that email, which is one of the reasons why the emails are so powerful. It doesnt rely on someones memory of what they said at a particular time. This is contecontemporaneous. He wrote this on that day about these events. And i want to get to one of the descriptions in this report of how this was run at one of the detention sites. The cia officer in charge of detention site cobalt was a junior officer on his first overseas assignment with no previous experience or training in handling prisoners or conducting interrogations. Cia officer 1 was the detention site cobalt manager during the period in which a cia detainee died and numerous cia detainees were subjected to unapproved coercive interrogation techniques. And of course, its no surprise that they didnt have anyone who knew how to do this. The cia wasnt in the business of doing this kind of torture. Yes, absolutely. And that really stands out, the example you pointed out. And sadly, several instances of that explained throughout the report, where we had these officers who were put in charge of these detention sites who clearly were not qualified to run a kind of Interrogation Program like this. As that passage would continue with that officer that you were referring to, there was actually a supervisor who issued a warning to the agency saying that this person should not be put in charge of a detention site. He was concerned he wasnt going to follow orders. We see that example. Several instances of people put in charge of these sites where supervisors even passed up the chain of the agency that people should not be in charge of things. And yet, they were still given these posts. And things were reading here are not testimonies made by prisoners saying these are the bad things they did to. This is what people within the cia, within the program wrote to each other about what they saw happen to these people, or what they did to these people. Yes. Colleagues of these people saying they should not be put in charge of bases. They would anger management issues. They were concern with unsubordination. We had one example, a particularly disturbing one a critique that was passed up the chain of the cia chief of interrogations, i believe, who resigned saying he wanted to get off the train before it crashed. And i believe that note came in 2003 and we know now the program continued and the use of the techniques continued through far beyond 2003. So the fact that those kinds of internal critiques, there was a selective ignorance to the kind of criticisms that were passed up the chain should be very disturbing. If the cia and if this government never does this kind of torture again, it will be because of what the United States senate did today. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thanks for having me. Coming up, video of the shooting by new York City Police last night that killed a suspect. You can judge if this was a correct use of deadly force. New York City Police and the use of deadly force. Again. Right now, you can get a single line with 3 gigs for 65 a month. 3 gigs. 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New York City Police and the use of deadly force. Again. Around 1 30 this morning Kelvin Peters entered a brooklyn synagogue and stabbed a 22yearold rabin call student in the head with a nineinch knife. What happened next is captured in cell phone video. The network wants me to warn you that this is graphic video. A knife. Are you sure . Yes. Yo. Drop the knife. One more time, [ bleep ] drop the knife. Stay away, stay away. [ bleep ] drop the knife. Dont shoot, dont shoot. Throw it. Step away. Hands up. [ bleep ] hands up. Hands up. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stay back. Stay with me. Hey, hey whoa, whoa. Drop the knife drop the [ bleep ] knife drop the [ bleep ] knife [ gunshot ] kelvin peter, the man later died. His family said he suffered from emotional and psychological problems. The rabin call student is in serious but stable condition at a local hospital. I had the opportunity to review the separate tapings we have. I am very comfortable that this incident this morning, that tragic event, the three officers involved behaved in an admirable way. They are to be con mended. Particularly two of the three officers most at risk during the incident. Joining me now a new York City Police officer and former new york city prosecutor. Hes currently a professor of law and Police Studies at the college of criminal justice. Ewe neen, when you look at that video from a cops perspective, prosecutors perspective, what do you see . I see preservation of human life at the top and officers taking every step they possibly can to avoid the ending here. And literally they did everything, i think, you could conceivably do in a very cease ou situation. This is somebody that stabbed somebody. Close to civilians. But this is really. They order him to put down the knife, which he does. The officer, you see him put the gun away. Hes done now, he doesnt see a deadly threat now that the knife is down. Moves toward him. Once he starts moving back and grabs that knife, then the gun comes out again. The other thing thats crucial about this video when we compare it to, say, ferguson, he fires one shot and stops. He assesses the officer assesses what has happened now after this one shot. It bears worth noting. You would think that this event was over. And for anybody whos ever pointed a gun at somebody as a police officer, and i have, unfortunately, never had to fire, theres almost a sur veal feeling to this. It almost feels at times the guy is play acting. You can almost get lumed into thinking this is not serious. Its a great example of its not over until the handcuffs are on. A perfect example of that. Now the mayor, we saw standing there with the police commissioner, the mayor de blasio agrees, this video is clear and convincing evidence of a perfectly fair and reasonable use of deadly force. Another part of it i think is instructive in so many of these cases the number of shots fired was the number of shots in the police weapon. And thats the case in ferguson, 12. How many shots did he fire . 12. How many rounds did he have . 12. Meaning there wasnt a decision made about each one of those shots. This time typically is very good on restraint daily tors. 4 people are going to criticize this department. This Police Department is the leader informing police use of deadly force and they did it during a deadly time period when police work was much more dangerous for flifrs. We have the shooting avoid because cops use restraint. Eugene odonnell, thanks for joining us. The senator who spent a third of his Senate Career trying to find out the truth about cia torture. And later, jonathan gruber, the mit economist who helped create the Affordable Care act had to apologize today to a House Committee for what he said about the Affordable Care act. And the optics industry in germany . 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Com this is humira at work into one youll never forget. Earn points for every flight and every hotel. Expedia plus rewards. The United States senate took a stand against torture. Republicans joined democrats in condemning the torture program that was run by the cia. Not one senator rose to defend torture. The biggest dispute on the senate floor was about releasing this information today. Republican sax by chambliss made the point that today is a bad day to release information like this because of all of the threatsby chambliss made the point that today is a bad day to release information like this because of all of the threats it might cause around the world. Theres no good time Something Like this. Senator feinstein gave credit where credit is due including the man who started what eventually became senator feinsteins investigation. First, i thank senator rockefeller. He started this project by directing his staff to review the operational cables that describe the first recorded interrogations after we learned that the videotapes of those sessions had been destroyed. And that report was what led to this multiyear investigation. Without it we wouldnt have had any sense of what happened. Without Jay Rockefeller, we would have learned nothing about the cia today. John d. Rockefeller ivs great grandfather was americas richest man. His grandfather built rockefeller center, including the building im sitting in now. Jay rockefeller was born with enough money to live a life of loez sure among the idle rich, but he was a hardworking harvard student who studied in japan for three years and in 1964 became a vista volunteer, volunteers in service to america. He chose to do his service in West Virginia. Emmings is where i came to understand that out of our everyday struggles we can enlarge ourselves. We can grow greater. Truly making a difference couldnt be an afterthought. It never could. Rather, it requires a singular focus and relentless effort. It would be hard, but the work would matter. Singular focus. Jay rockefeller served two terms as governor. I got to know him as a member of the Senior Finance committee in 193. One way that senator staff judged senators is how that senator staff feels about the senator. Some staffs fear their senator. Some grudgingly respect their senator. Some like their senator. Jay rockefellers staff loves their senator. And you could easily see why. Hes a big man, well over six feet, whos always gentle, soft spoken, considerate and ready to laugh. He once told senator moynihan and i a story about a problem his belued mother and oh, he loved his mother. A problem his mother caused him in the early days of his political career in West Virginia. There was labor strife in new york city which normally would have no effect on a West Virginia politician. But the work place on the verge of a shutdown was the metropolitan opera and Jay Rockefellers mother was on the board of the met. As jay told it, when his mother was cornered by a reporter, she said the musicians were behaving like a bunch of coal miners. Senator rockefeller got that a rockefeller was going to have to work harder than any other politician to win the votes of West Virginia coal miners. And he was willing to do that. He brought that singular focus that he brought to his work in washington. In every hear, senators have briefing books that explain to them in detail the subjects covered in that hearing. Jay rockefeller did his work like no other senator. Literally like no other senator. We staffed sitting behind him all noticed that as he pored over his panl, he highlighted every single line on every page. He couldnt find a word about a subject that he cared about that he dnd didnt think was important. Most public score cards are useless. Bills passed in their name. That doesnt tell you very much because the credit for passing legislation is usually far too complex to assign to any individual. Jay rockefeller dependent run for senate thinking i want to get there so that i can someday investigate the cia. That was a role that history presented to senator rockefeller and that he accepted and for ten years became the subject of his singular focus and relentless effort. 1 3 of his Senate Career was devoted to the work that was presented to the senate today. 1 3 of Jay Rockefellers Senate Career was dedicated to doing something that possibly no other government on earth would do, dig into an important secret activity that the government got very wrong and tell the world about it and leave that government in a position where it will not be able to make that similar mistame again. If thats the only thing he did in his lifetime, it would be a great accomplishment. He did the same on other subjects including health care where hes always a senate leader. Senators do not do their work alone. There is no senator who will tell you that he or she works harder than their staff. 6. 3 million page of documents were reviewed not by senators by by the Intelligence Committee staff to produce the report that was revealed in the senate today. 6. 36 million pages can is the equivalent of about 20,000 books. It is more than i will read in my lifetime. That material was studied by a staff of only 20. If the work was evenly distributed, that would be the equivalent of having to read about 1,000 books each. But this kind of book is evenly distributed. Some carry a much heavilier load than others. The work presented to the senate today and to the world is one of the most momentous staff accomplishments in the history of the United States senate. And they did this with no less a power than the cia trying toing stand in their way. Even improperly and possibly illegally searching senate staff computers. Government worker like this dont funch a time clock. They stay as long as they need to. They dont expect credit for what nay do. Senate staff are thanked for their work publicly more often than you realize because whenever a senator gets to that point in the speech where he or she thanks the staff, the tv cameras usually find something more important to cover. Senator feinstein gave the staff the thanks that they more than deserved today. Most importantly, i want to thank the Intelligence Committee staff who performed this work. They are dan jones who has led this review since 2007. And more than anyone else, today is a result of his effort. En goddisman and ed turner each wrote nows of pages and have dedicated themselves and much of their lives to this project. Alyssa starjack has contributed extensively until her departure in the committee in 2011. Other key contributors to the drafting, editing and review of the report were jennifer barrett, nick bassiano, mike buckwald, jim catella, eric chapman, john dickas, lorenzo goko, cleat johnson, michael noblet, michael pezner, tommy ross, Caroline Tess and james wolf. And finally, david granite who has been a never faltering staff director throughout this review. Senator feinstein said its really about American Values and morals. Its about the constitution, the bill of right, our rule of law. And its about the singular focus and relentless effort of Jay Rockefeller, Dianne Feinstein and the senate Intelligence Committee staff. Senator rockefeller is in his final days as a United States senator. He will be missed. We honor tom hanks, famously forest gufrp, the ultimate in successful stupid man. You dont need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. Because we do. Were exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. Because boiling an egg. Isnt as simple as just boiling an egg. Life takes energy. Energy lives here. You drop 40 grand on a new set of wheels, then. Wham a minivan tbones you. Guess what your Insurance Company will only give you 37thousand to replace it. Depreciation they claim. How can my car depreciate before its first oil change . You ask. Maybe the better question is, why do you have that Insurance Company . With Liberty Mutual new car replacement, well replace the full value of your car. See Car Insurance in a whole new light. Liberty mutual insurance. We honor tom hanks, famously forest gump, the ultimate in successful stupid man. Are you stupid . I dont think so, no. Does m. I. T. Employ stupid people . Not to my knowledge. Losing feeling in my toes nothing beats that new car smell chicken parm you taste so good nationwide is on your side mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm [ inhales deeply ] [ sighs ] [ inhales ] [ male announcer ] at cvs health, we took a deep breath. [ inhales, exhales ] [ male announcer ] and made the decision to quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. Now we invite smokers to quit, too, with our comprehensive program. We just want to help everyone, everywhere, breathe a little easier. Introducing cvs health. Because health is everything. The cbo did not score the mandate as taxes. The bill dies. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically you call it the stupidity of the American Voter or whatever, but basically, that was really, really critical to get it to pass. That video was discovered. And today in a hearing chaired by darrell issa, he said this i apologize for doing so in such a disparaging fashion. Its never appropriate to make oneself seem better by demeaning others. Im embarrassed and im sorry. Joining me now is Health Care Reporter jeffrey young, washington, the only place you have to apologize for telling the truth. During the course of the hearing what professor gruber was saying those stuff on the tapes that i didnt know were out there, thats not really what i meant. What i really meant is what im saying right now. Toe committee members, this is true for the democrats as well as the republicans. These kinds of things are written in a tortured way. The policy gets contorted to fit that budget number. In this case, they wanted to get past certain kind of semantics if you called this thing a, then people cant vote for it. Calling the man date a tax was one of the ways it passed the supreme court. Well, just take that example right there. Its also funny. Whether you call it a tax or a fee, it costs the exact same amount of money. I understand why that kind of stuff grosses people out. They talk about legislating sausage making. I think part of what they talk about in the Affordable Care act, it dragged on so long that we saw the sausage making in many ways more up close and in greater detail than we do with other laws that are made. And i think in a way, i think thats part of what people got upset about thattive gs these comments from gruber such currency. Were out of time. I for one prefer the gruber when he thinks hes offcamera than when hes on camera. Thanks for joining us. Chris hayes is up next. Hardball starts right now. Nasty business. Lets play hardball. Good evening im Chris Matthews in washington. Tonight the big debate here, should america torture . A new report from the u. S. Senate Intelligence Committee states this country engaged in harsh interrogation techniques including waterboarding, threats of death, stress positions, and longterm sleep deprivation
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