Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20191007

Two whistleblowers, lawyers now saying this new insider is coming forward with firsthand knowledge of that infamous ukraine call, and that President Trumps not taking the pressure well, lashing out as the house issues more subpoenas, including new ones today, demanding documents from the Budget Office and the pentagon. Thats a high stakes battle. Five different Trump Administration departments face the deadlines to comply. And another sign of the escalating stakes in this impeachment battle, the Washington Post reporting late today House Democrats now exploring extra security measures to protect the whistleblower when any testimony might be provided. Democrats, quote, considering testimony to remote location, possibly obscuring the individuals appearance and voice, which the post describes as, quote, extraordinary moves to prevent trumps congressional allies from revealing the identity of that whistleblower. Now just stop and take that in. It is illegal to expose the identity of that whistleblower. It is illegal because of laws that the congress writes. So this report is stating that at least democratic officials believe there is a credible concern that the people who write these laws, in this case theyre alleging House Republicans, will literally break them to continue a coverup for donald trump. That is a serious concern or allegation. But then again donald trump himself has been calling for exactly that outcome, and a lawyer for one whistleblower is also warning today that there is now an alleged 50,000 bounty out there for revealing his clients identity. The sparring comes as top house attorney appears to own himself with this patently false defense. You watch what the president said. He is not saying china is investigating. Likewise china should start an investigation into the bidens because what happened to china is just about as bad as what happened with ukraine. The fact checks are pretty straight forward when the lies are this blatant. And thats not the president s only problem in this news cycle right now, because his congressional defenders can keep denying that trump requested foreign collusion against his rivals, but now Rudy Giuliani is admitting it. This is the kind of damage control that requires damage control. The president of the United States has every right to ask countries to help us in a criminal investigation that should be undertaken. That happens to involve a political opponent. Well, i cant help that. First of all, even if it is pressuring ukraine, its a lot different than when biden did this. All should have stopped when President Trump said i didnt do anything wrong. Now that is a view from a trump loyalist. But there is another sign, and this one is about why this is different. It comes from the drumbeat at fox news, of course a major source for conservatives which is now airing more and more concerns about donald trump amidst this scandal and beyond. Were hardly a channel in agreement. We have a few resistance people on this channel, were going to be honest. It seems to me to be an effort by the president s defenders to try to make something to make nothing out of something, and there is something here. Your diligence, your dedication and you just kept on with those questions the other day with the president. You were cool. You were collected. Today the president did exactly what hes accused of doing, this time on live television. Asking for aid in a domestic political campaign. Whether the aid is delivered or not is a criminal event. Thats clear in the statute. Criminal event, clear in the statute. So no matter where people are getting their news, it is now a fact of American Life that a lot of people are getting news about the evidence of donald trump doing something wrong. And whatever the publics take, that debate is not the only place that this battle is unfolding. Impeachment probe itself grinding on. Tomorrow lawmakers questioning a trump official at the centerini messages and ambassador sondland. Ken freedman, who worked for Rudy Giulianis 1993 campaign for mayor, and today has this barn burner in the New York Times making waves around the country. Quote, what happened to Rudy Giuliani . Where he writes the man i worked for in 1993 is not the man who lies for donald trump and goes on to issue many other criticisms were going get to. And were joined by a republican, Christine Todd whitman who served as governor of new jersey and the epa chief in the Bush Administration and has emerged as a voice of concern about some of what donald trump is doing. Good evening to all of you. Good evening. Barrett, new whistleblower alleging firsthand accounts. How does that change this . Yeah, i think its significant. Look, we have to remember its not a court of law here for an. Many inquiry. Its not necessary that a whistleblower has firsthand information. We have to remember they are trying to make the case both for members of congress and ultimately for the general public. So assuming this person does in fact have firsthand knowledge, that only does make this case stronger. I think perhaps this persons greatest utility at this stage is to provide more evidence for the members of congress to use when theyre questioning people in these upcoming hearings. If theyre able to interview the second whistleblower in addition to the first whistleblower, they can get a better sense of how to question and crossexamine witnesses that come before them and what other afters to seek with subpoenas and document requests. And governor whitman, im curious what you think. I want to play some sound from old school lindsey graham. That one . I dont remember. Kanye west talks about how there is old kanye and new kanye, and there is a lot of people who prefer old kanye there is a little bit of a version of that with lindsey graham. One of the points he made there that could be relevant in this impeachment is not only what do the whistleblowers have, but whether there is obstruction from the white house over something that is so central. Lindsey grahams view used to be that level of obstruction changes the game. Take a look. The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from congress. Well, its mindboggling to me that congress isnt standing up now and saying this is about the constitution. This is about the three branches of government. This is about our role as the legislative branch. I would think that they would be outraged at the amount of stonewalling thats been going on and that they wouldnt see this as being undermining the very premise of our government and our constitution. And its you know, its enormously troubling. I dont get it. I do i mean, from a political point of view, i guess. But weve so slipped into this mindset that everything is about politics and nothing is about policy anymore. And we are so divided that people are going to stand up and when the president how can he deny that he asked china to intervene when he asked china to intervene publicly. Does it concern you when you see this new Washington Post report out tonight that there is a credible concern that members of congress would break the law and leak the whistleblowers identity . Im very concerned with that kind of thing. We have seen all the basic norps that we have come to expect be blown away over the last two and a half, three years. It seems like an eternity, but i guess its only three at this point. And that has been that has been something that is going to have a longterm damage i believe to our to the peoples confidence in government. Berit, take a look at some of the other defenses we are seeing in this struggle among republicans to find something to say. Well, i doubt if the china comment was serious, to tell you the truth. I dont know. If thats a real request or him needling the press, knowing that you guys were going to get outraged by it. George, you really think he was serious about thinking that china is going to investigate the biden family . Because i dont think thats what he did. Legally, how strong an argument is that . I mean, this is actually you see criminal defendants trying to do all the time in our courtrooms. If you have a recording where their voice is on it, they say sure, i said those words, but that wasnt what i meant. Whether it was i wasnt really talking about drugs, i was talking about our code or i was really just joking when i asked a Foreign Government to interfere in our elections. I think if youre captured on tape, that is sort of the only thing left for you to claim. But at least based on my experience in federal court, it was not often very successful. Yeah, and it goes to desperati desperation. Ken, as i promised, i bring you. In you were making waves with this piece today. Just as a little background, you advocated for the election of Rudy Giuliani as mayor. I was his press secretary. And you advocated throughout his ten year . I did. And last year you talked about his respect for him . In the daily news. I think as someone who covers this interview, being able to change your mind in public is more difficult than doing it in private. Something changed for you. You have this new piece in the New York Times today. Tell us about it. Well, you know, there was an old rudy and a new rudy. As their intent to be in politics. I think you knew the old rudy as well. Yes. And the old ruled di listened, because he wanted to win the new rudy doesnt listen anymore because he won, and you cant tell him anything he doesnt know. I dont think as many people think hes unhinged or suffering from dementia. I think that he is zealously trying to protect his golden goose, frankly, the president. But you write that he is a lying, bumbling henchman . Yeah. He is not doing a good job of protecting the golden goose. Its clear that hes not telling the truth, and its clear that he is fumbling and bumbling in his attempts to do that. Did he used to lie this routinely in your view . No, no. He was very good at message discipline and control back in the day. Well, you mentioned that back in the day, message discipline. Lets look at his message whatever on fox news. Yeah. Yesterday. There is no claim even in a lawsuit that joe biden knew about this. No, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on. 20 years in the Washington Press corps. I say brother, cut it out, damn it, as opposed to i dont know about it. I didnt hear it. And you all buy that. Bull ukraine rudy, rudy, i got a hard break coming up. You have a transcript of the call. I know you want to defend so it bad. I dont want to defend anything. I am asking questions. It is pathetic. Unfortunately, he looks like a right wing conspiracy nut, okay. But when youre the former press secretary to the giuliani campaign. Yes. Youre saying he looks like a nut. Thats what he looks like. But when your client lies and you cash the check, in this case he is working pro bono, but hes profiting. Paul manafort worked pro bono as well. Sometimes its considered suspicious. All right. If your client lies, you to lie for him. I mean, look at sean spicer who tried to convince us that the obama inauguration was half the size of the trump inauguration. You seem pained. Does this pain you . Of course. Of course it pained me. He married us 25 years ago tomorrow. So im very fond of him. I have very fond memories. I actually carry this in my wallet. Which is . I mentioned. I read that in the article. I didnt know you had it with you. This is thats our wedding day at city hall. And i carried it in my wallet until recently when i couldnt carry it anymore when someone at a dinner party, a stranger suggested that we werent legally married because rudys working on his third divorce. So it impacted me that that actually had an emotional and psychological effect. And as someone who works and i say this sometimes when people ask me, well, how can you have this or that person on the show, interview this person or that person. In my experience, a lot of people who go into government and public service, they may have a range of views. But a lot of them have a great belief in public service. I imagine in your view, you would say that animated you. So what it is that youre hoping to achieve by speaking out, which i see is not easy for you when you see Rudy Giuliani defending what the president is inviting Foreign Governments to do now. I actually hope he is still can be reached, that maybe he is watching tonight, and hopefully he read the New York Times and hell pause and hell think about the zealous way that he is defending him, the ferocious way that he is defending him. And berit, i want to bring you in on this, because obviously members of the bar work cases. Theyre prosecutors, that they go in and defense and vice ve a versa. But as rudy admitted this is not just him taking on a person or a criminal case. He now stands in the intersection of something the congress is investigating as unconstitutional, as an abuse of power. So he is the agent of that plot and not merely a criminal defense attorney because i will go on record anyone has the right to counsel. There is something extra concerning to people who know that. You worked in sdny. When you contrast the role he used to play as someone who busted criminal conspiracies. Take a look at that older rudy, as our panelists have called it. I am tired of being asked over and over again, which type of crime is more dangerous, Violent Crime or white collar crime. All are dangerous and destructive of our society. I think five or six or seven years ago, nobody would believe it was possible to convict the head of the Sicilian Mafia and have him sitting in the metropolitan correction center. Yeah. I want to just jump in on one thing you said which is you lie if youre a lawyer on behalf of your client. But i want to just for point of clarification, just because lawyers may have that reputation in the media does not mean that that is an acceptable practice. There are ethical rules that guide our practice. Hold on, berit. You are a lawyer. How can we believe you . I know. How dare i, right . Its a pair do. Defense lawyers know when they have a guilty client, though, dont they . They usually do, although i would argue it depends on the case. Well, yes. And everybody has the right to a vigorous defense and to an advocate that will oftentimes take positions that they know are weak. What i dont think they have the right to is a lawyer that will go into court and lie for them. Sure. Not only is that illegal, but it is also unethical and is contrary to our rules of profession and responsibility. And the Court Setting that this may be heading towards if the house impeaches is a senate trial, which as the country will be reminded is different than normal court. I wonder what you think, broadening from Rudy Giuliani is this individual that were learning about to the choices facing the Republican Party. Is it possible for the Republican Party to defend the president and the incumbent party if they wish while also being truthful, or while also acknowledging there are things he shouldnt do, while standing up for that. Do you see any hope for that in your colleagues . I do. I hope that eventually they will see the importance of this to the future of the country. And the treating these things as real issues, a lot ois going to depend on how the democrats handle this. They really need to find some there there. I spent time now talking to people who are, you know, this way, they dont love everything about trump, but they want to hear more. And they dont believe there is a there there yet. I think there is plenty there. But theyre not convinced. A lot is going to depend on how methodical and transparent the democrats are as they go forward. I wish there was only one committee instead of fife doing this. So then you have subpoenas all over the place. It just feeds into this theyre beating up on the poor man. He kind of feeds all of this. He called for this when he called out publicly and said that russia excuse me, china we weve already done russia, but when china should start to investigate. You cant deny it. And the damage he has done to ukraine. I was just there for the last elections, their parliamentary elections. And the people were so enthusiastic about the potential of zelensky, who is someone who is young, unexperienced, but coming in with an im going to tackle the corruption, which has been endemic. And then our president gets up there and sucks him into this domestic political thing, is undermining him. He keeps talking about how corrupt ukraine. Its basically putins talking points. Its damning the way you put it, and the evidence shows the president bringing in not only the foreign leaders, but his own attorney general, Rudy Giuliani and others, pence perhaps into this whole plot so there is a lot to be uncovered. Rick perry did it, i think. I heard that. Rick perry. We have more on that later. Thank you for that fact check. We can mix in the very serious times for our public with some sense of humorous perspective, and ill remind viewers what weve been listening to in this very serious and sober conversation is a former giuliani aide, a republican governor in Good Standing and a prosecutor. Not exactly a Resistance Panel when it comes to just assessing the facts of what is arrayed against this president. Christine todd whitman, berit berger, and ken freedman, thanks to each of you. Thank you. A break and then rick perry in on the act. What does he have to deal with it . David cohen is with me here later. And neal katyal. And later, a very special interview with a look inside the white house. Im ari melber, and youre watching the beat on msnbc. The only thing better than horsepower. Is more horsepower. engines rev if we were for everyone, wed be for no one. With dodge power dollars, more power means more cash allowance. Purchase now and get 10 per horsepower. Thats 7,970 on the srt challenger hellcat redeye. I was told to begin my aspirin regimen, blem. And i just didnt listen. Until i almost lost my life. My doctors again ordered me to take aspirin, and i do. Be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. Listen to the doctor. Take it seriously. Make ice. D be mad at tech thats unnecessarily complicated. But youre not, because you have e trade, which isnt complicated. Their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. Dont get mad. Get e trade. President trump is on defense over several different fronts tonight, bowing to this military pressure from turkey, new subpoenas over ukraine, and again shifting his defense and impeachment probe that could define his presidency. So it is worth keeping track of the evidence here. One piece of evidence suggests trump knew his ukraine plot was wrong because he vigorously denied it, originally insisting that rather calling for an investigation of biden, the call was congratulatory and about some sort of general corruption. The conversation i had was largely congratulatory, was largely corruption. But my complaint has always been, and i withhold again, and ill continue to withhold until such time as europe and other nations contribute to ukraine. That claim was undercut by evidence from trumps own white house when trump tried to shift that by famously calling for more foreign collusion. China should start an investigation into the bidens. Because what happened to china is just about as bad as what happened with ukraine. Democrats said that was an effort to launder and try to normalize this kind of plotting. And by the time trump was privately conferring with House Republicans heading into this weekend on friday, he was back to admitting the plot was a bad thing, but blaming it on his employee rick perry, saying perry made him do it. Now that is an irrelevant argument. If this plot is a high crime, which is a judgment left to the senate, its not a defense to say your subordinate told you to do it. Dont you wonder is this even okay with rick perry . Well, it turns out you can blame it on the Energy Secretary because he dont care. Thats why this is starting to look like a milli vanilli defense. Because you got to blame it on something. Absolutely. I asked the president multiple times, mr. President , we think it is in the United States and ukraines best interests that you and the president of ukraine have conversations, that you discuss the options that are there. What does this argument reveal about where the impeachment debate is headed . David corn, how are you doing . Okay. How you . I want to ask you that. I want to ask about the milli vanilli defense and where the impeachment is headed. So stick around. Were back in 30 seconds. Well inform them that Liberty Mutual customizes home insurance, so theyll only pay for what they need. Your turn to keep watch, limu. Wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Turn to mother jones david corn. David, you knew it was a 30second break. I know. Im sorry. Youre a news addict. Im sure youre checking the headlines. Yes. What does it tell you that you have these defenses coming . Well, you know, i dont want to help any movie studio in particular, but it does seem to me that donald trump is playing the joker card, that he wants to be the joker, and he realizes that chaos is his best friend. He linebackers chaos. So we go from i didnt do it to i did do it to im doing it right now in front of you as we speak to rick perry made me do it. And its about ukraine. Now its about liquefied nitrogen gas. Its about the bidens. Its about servers. He just wants this ball of confusion, the temptations song, to be out there. So its really hard for people to get ahold of whats going on. Your theory basically is what he gives up in logic because saying i did something its okay, im proud of it is very different than saying i did something so bad i have to blame something. But when he gets locked in logic, what happens . In clutter and chaos. There is not a complete throughline here. You and i follow this stuff day in and day out now, second by nanosecond. To a lot of people viewing, and in particular his base who are watching from afar or not watching, or watching fox which is barely mentioning this, they just see him putting out all sorts of different stories, and it all gets kind of muddy. They fall back on to what is their natural bias, which is i like the president. They must be going after him for bad reasons. I cant follow the details. To people in the middle who want to try to understand this, he does everything imaginable to make it incomprehensible. And look, david, i would never in the middle of a serious newscast reach for an obscure pop culture reference. Never. Unheard of. But what youre describing sounds like the south park chewbacca defense. The south park chewbacca . In south park they depict Johnnie Cochran using chewbacca in star wars to confuse the jury so by the end of the closing presentation, its not that the defendant looks more innocent in this case, donald trump, but rather that enough people just get confused. And they get turned off. They dont pay attention. We saw this with the trump russia scandal in the sense that it was in some ways confusing, had a lot of different elements to it. Somebody had to write a book to explain it. And it took a book maybe to explain it. Look, man, im not going to blow you up. But if you think the takeaway was confusing, you spent a few years trying to explain it in print and on air. Thats on you, man. No, no. I think its on the fact that within the media as we have it these days, its very easy to come along and spin out lies, alternative realities, fake facts, look what devin nunes did to the investigation on the house intelligence committee, trying to bring up all sorts of diversionary subjects, and the media feels compelled to cover that to some extent, even if they say its not true, it still creates an impression that is indeed confusing to people who dont pay close attention. That may be why a process like impeachment and a senate trial, which becomes the biggest story in the nation for a while may actually be the scariest thing to them. If the president really wanted to beism people. Ed he would say bring it on. Theyre stonewalling, counterattacking. Maybe in that focus, some of the confusion argument works less. Well see. Ive got fit in a break. Mr. Corn, thank you as always. Good to be with you. Appreciate you as always. Up ahead, the second whistleblower and the dangers that are posed by some say people in government. Neal katyal live joins me for opening arguments. And up next, a deep dive on impeachment. Something very special im going to show you after the break. And redemption. The mist crept into the pivot hole beside her. Youre late. David what did you think of the book . Its a. Masterstroke of. Heartache. Brutality. And redemption. You didnt read it, did you . I didnt. But i will. The lexus nx, modern utility for modern obstacles. Lease the 2020 nx 300 for 349 month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. I have moderate to severe pnow, theres skyrizi. Things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free to bare my skin yeah thats all me. Nothing and me go hand in hand nothing on my skin thats my new plan. Nothing is everything. Keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. Of those, nearly 9 out of 10 sustained it through 1 year. And skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. I see nothing in a different way and its my moment so i just gotta say nothing is everything skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. Before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. Nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. Now we turn to a very news worthy guest, current counsel for President Trump, jay sekulow. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me, ari. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Congress is considering impeaching President Trump for asking to investigate a domestic rival, joe biden. As you know, the evidence shows now and trump admits he did that for starter, do you see this as an impeachment debate where you basically agree on what happened or that your defense is what happened in your view is okay . Its two things. One is the house has still not moved to a normal impeachment proceeding. So i think to be clear, nancy pelosi when she had the press conference a week and a half ago, two weeks ago now said that this is a more formal investigation. But the fact is they havent taken it to the floor of the house. So the house has not instituted an impeachment proceedings. So thats number one. So nothing has really changed for the last the months weve been in really in this investigation. As to the issue of what was said, well, thats not in dispute because the transcript was released which clearly shows what was said, at least the best transcript that was available regarding the phone call. I find whats interesting now is the so the president wanted ukraine to investigate joe biden . The president said why dont we stick to what he said in the transcript where he said he was concerned about a number of things, the biden reference and my colleague Rudy Giulianis reference were about if you were to sum it all up, about a minute and a half of that conversation. There is nothing there that rises to a level of impeachable offense. There is no high crime or misdemeanor. I just want to start with figuring out what you acknowledge. Sure. I acknowledge the transcript. Thats what the evidence. Thats one piece of evidence. There is also whistleblower evidence, and there is also the president s own words. Hold on, hold on, im going let you get in. But let me play for you what your client said. Because he added to the transcript by saying this. What exactly did you hope zelensky would do about the bidens after your phone call, exactly . Well, i would think that if they were honest about it, theyd start a Major Investigation into the bidens. So your client admits that goal, which is why im asking what the congress is considering is whether that thing is impeachable. Do you concede that . I dont think its impeachable. I dont see where its a high crime or misdemeanor. Tell me what rule, law or statute has been violated by the president as commander in chief and as the chief executive under article two of the constitution violated any rule. You may not like the politics of it. You may not like the statement. But where does it violate a law . Where does this rise to the level of a high crime or misdemeanor. I know youll say get to the whistleblower. We are going to get to the whistleblower. We are. Because were not there yet. Go ahead. All right. Jury asking about whether there is a statutory violation. As you know, what the founders did was write in the idea that you could have high crimes and misdemeanors. You want to point to statutes, thats not required. But hold on, and ill let you respond, sir. It is unlawful to solicit or receive any foreign help which includes things of value. So if you want a statute, ive got it up on the screen. Thats not even required. The other thing i want to ask you. Do you really ari, in all honesty okay, go ahead. Your show. I want to ask you and ill give you time. If donald trump didnt do anything wrong in this ukraine plot. Right. Why did he deny it and keep shifting the defense . He hasnt denied it. He released the transcript. Thats whats interesting here. Lets take a very quick trip down memory lane. Go ahead. First it was going to be there was a quid pro quo. Then the transcript comes out. There is no quid pro quo. Then a coverup, but no coverup because the transcript was released. Then adam schiff i didnt walk to the whistleblower and we find out he did. And the hearing, instead of reading from the transcript, he makes something up. Let me get in here and they say to you let me please, finish the sentence. Go ahead. I think what we have to do is look at the evidence, and the evidence to me very clearly establishes that there is no high crime or misdemeanor, and that this is political theater. Well, i think youre entitled to that view and i think youre going wage that debate, and you may ultimately win in the senate if it gets there, what i raise right now, was what i have to fact check you on is the president deny it as did his aides in realtime. So that does go, as you know as a lawyer to wait, hold on, im going show it to you and let you respond, but you know that goes as his lawyer to awareness of guilt. Now im going to play for you the president and then marc lotter on this very program saying he didnt admit what i just already showed, which was there was a request to investigate the bidens. Take a look first at the president. Now when you see tcall, if yu see it, i hope you see it, frankly, i think youll find out i did not do that at all ash and youll be very disappointed when you see it. And then we had mark lotter who worked on the campaign for the president s reelection. He also told us it was not this biden plot. Take a look. Youre telling me today youre not looking for foreign help, but the ukraine call noepts, even before you get to the whistleblower, have the president saying do me a favor, go after a domestic rival joe biden. That is not what the transcript says, and you know better than that, ari. He says do me a favor, look into corruption, look into the incidents that were detailed in the 2016 election meddling. Why deny this, which is charitable or lie, which is what your critics are saying today, why have these people lie about this and then go on and admit it . I give you your response. Ari, here is my response. We released the transcript. And the transcript speaks for itself. And heres the problem. You put up on your screen a few moments ago that the violation that youre going to talk about impeachment on is an interpretation of an Fec Federal Election Commission law regarding something of value when the special counsel, who everybody forgets even existed now came to the conclusion that that information, if it was ever obtained would not cute value. So this is, again, everybody forgets. The only one to remember the parts of bob mueller that you want to remember, which by the way nobody is remember together much of that, i have to say these days, and why is that . Because this idea that this is a violation of an fec rule, and youre going to impeach the president of the United States on a contorted interpretation of an fec regulation . I dont think that rises to high crime and misdemeanor. This is why its useful to hear what your defense is. Part of your defense is the position that he can in the light of day get foreign help in the campaign, and youre saying that that shouldnt be illegal. Thats your position. I want to ask you thats not what i said by the way, but go ahead. I want to ask about the lawyers. Youre a lawyer for donald trump, correct . Yes, in a private kpcapacity yes. Is Rudy Giuliani a lawyer for donald trump right now . He is. And so when you see Rudy Giuliani go out there in this manner, he helping the president , in your view . I think he is. He is getting out there the facts that he knows more about than anyone else. Rudy giuliani knows more about whats going on in ukraine than anybody on these committees know. And i think thats just fact. So what Rudy Giuliani is doing is putting forward a position to defend his client. And thats why he was involved in this in the first place. Thats what he said publicly. That was out of my jurisdiction. It wasnt anything i was engaged in. But i understand what he has said, and i think he is representing his client, and as you know as a lawyer, you do that zealously. When did you learn that Rudolph Giuliani was asking these Foreign Governments to investigate joe biden . You know, i learned i guess when you did, that was not in my jurisdiction. Well, you know when i did. So im asking you when you did. You dont know when i learned it. I didnt know anything about it until all this got really public. You learned about it when it stilled into the public reporting . Yeah, because my engagement, as you remember was involved with the whole bob mueller russia collusion obstruction nonsense. Thats what i dealt with. So what rudy was doing in regard to his aspect of regard of concern for ukraine or how the investigation started, that was his team. It was his folks. It wasnt me. I dont think what he did was the violation of any rule, regulation either. I understood. I think he had the right to do it. So viewers are hearing so they get all sides of this is you think the facts are ultimately on your side. I do. If thats true, if the facts or evidence are on your side, let me put up on the screen all of the different individuals who had been stonewalling the congress in this investigation. You have on the mueller side you have don mcgahn and mulvaney, and then you have pompeo and barr and pence. The list goes on and on here, and the question becomes why stonewall these subpoenas if you think the evidence helps you. First of all, stonewall is a loaded word. There are constitutional privileges that exist. You know that very well, including executive privilege, including deliberative privilege. Why hold back . Hold on, you got on my word choice, jay. Why withhold the evidence. Forget stonewall. Because it affects it doesnt affect this case. It affects the office of the presidency of the United States. You do not wave willynilly executive privilege. Thats like waving attorneyclient privilege. Would you wave attorneyclient privilege . Youre a lawyer. Would you weave ave it . Youre doing an interview with me. Were friends. Thats what im trying to say. You have valid constitutional statutory principles involved here, you dont just waive them. If i exercise my constitutional privilege, im now violating an obstruction of congress . Thats absurd, really absurd and dangerous by the way for american citizens. Really dangerous for the attorney client. You have final time to make your case. Thank you. Final question. When the president advocates the unmasking of this whistleblower, does that not violate federal law . Well, its not a question of the unmasking of the whistleblower. The real question is the whistleblowers testimony, which cannot be crossexamined going to be the basis of an impeachment allegation comes ow. Are you going have it where the witness cannot be crossexamined by the lawyers buzz under the house procedures right now, we dont get to ask a question of that whistleblower. And that could serve as a basis for impeachment. I think that violates something else. Its call due process. Jay sekulow revealing some of the arguments you would make. Thanks for coming on beet bey. Thank you. When we come back, neal katyal on the emergence of this second whistleblower and anything else he wants to say, right after the break. A wealth of opportunities. Thats the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. Straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, taxefficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. Fidelity wealth management. Tthe bad news . Ow our so will this recital. Day. New depend® fitflex underwear offers your best comfort and protection guaranteed. Because, perfect or not, lifes better when youre in it. Be there with depend®. In so many ways. Which cage free eggs taste fresher and more delicious . Only egglands best. Which organic eggs have more vitamins and less saturated fat . Only egglands best. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. Itheres my career. s more to me than hiv. My cause. And creating my dream home. Im a work in progress. So much goes into who i am. Hiv medicine is one part of it. Prescription dovato is for adults who are starting hiv1 treatment and who arent resistant to either of the medicines dolutegravir or lamivudine. Dovato has 2 medicines in 1 pill to help you reach and then stay undetectable. So your hiv can be controlled with fewer medicines while taking dovato. You can take dovato anytime of day with food or without. Dont take dovato if youre allergic to any of its ingredients or if you take dofetilide. If you have hepatitis b, it can change during treatment with dovato and become harder to treat. Your hepatitis b may get worse or become lifethreatening if you stop taking dovato. So do not stop dovato without talking to your doctor. Serious side effects can occur, including allergic reactions, liver problems, and liver failure. Lifethreatening side effects include lactic acid buildup and severe liver problems. If you have a rash and other symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking dovato and get medical help right away. Tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis b or c. Dont use dovato if you plan to become pregnant or during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy since one of its ingredients may harm your unborn baby. Your doctor should do a pregnancy test before starting dovato. Use effective Birth Control while taking dovato. The most common side effects are headache, diarrhea, nausea, trouble sleeping, and tiredness. So much goes into who i am and hope to be. Ask your doctor if starting hiv treatment with dovato is right for you. Doprevagen is the number oneild mempharmacistrecommendeding . Memory support brand. You can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Seeing what people left behind in the attic. Well, saving on Homeowners Insurance with geicos help was pretty fun too. Ahhhh, its a tiny dancer. They left a ton of stuff up here. Welp, enjoy your house. Nope. No thank you. Geico could help you save on homeowners and renters insurance. Geico could help you save to the wait did frowe just winners. Prouders everyone uses their phone differently. Thats why Xfinity Mobile lets you design your own data. Now you can share it between lines. Mix with unlimited, and switch it up at anytime so you only pay for what you need. Its a different kind of Wireless Network designed to save you money. Save up to 400 a year on your wireless bill. Plus get 250 back when you buy an eligible phone. Call, click, or visit a store today. Welcome back to our special coverage. Im joined now for opening argumentspy former acting solicitor general neal katyal. Good evening, sir. Good evening. Plenty to talk about. First, your reaction to anything you heard from the president s lawyer tonight live on the beat. Well, i think the technical legal term, ari, for what we just heard is gob gobly goodbye. The most telling thing is mr. Sekulow keeps referring to the, quote, transcript thats been released. No transcript has been released weve gotten a rough readout of the call. Its like calling the full cliff notes of macbeth, macbeth. What he doesnt say is the word for word stenographer transcript which mr. Frump has alluded to weve never seen. We have reports it was hidden on a classified server. We dont know exactly what the truth is. We do know what was turned over was not the full thing. But even that, as you were saying, even what was turned over is damming. Its forced the president to pivot from his First Defense which is oh, the whistleblower is all about hearsay, i didnt do it, blah blah blah, okay, i did it, and now im going to do it some more. Im going to do it overtly, and theres nothing wrong. What did you think for viewers studying up on the constitution these days of the attempt to say there must be a federal statute as a requirement to impeach. Yeah, thats totally bogus. I read about this in the New York Times. Thats never been the view from the founding on starting in the Philadelphia Convention of 1787. Literally, theres not a single responsible scholar who takes that view, and thats for good reason because theres all sorts of things that are horrible and abuses of trust but arent criminal. This one actually happens to be criminal. It is a thing of value, i think, for reasons you were talking about, but i think that doesnt matter for the impeachment debate at all. The central question, ari, that our founders thought about when they thought about impeachment is this, has the president abused the public trust, has he broken his fiduciary responsibility to the american people, and this is literally like if you looked in a dictionary definition of whats an impeachable offense, this would be what it is, its going to a Foreign Government and saying, hey, i want dirt on my political rival and im going to hold up u. S. Foreign policy and money appropriated by the senate and all sorts of diplomatic maneuvers until i get what i want for me personally. Thats the problem. Thats why this is so simple and thats why i think the president is lashing out in all of these different ways. The other thing hanging over this process as the house decides what to do and comes back into session next week is whether there is really a huge kind of end of days inner battle over subpoenas. I showed in the interview with mr. Sekulow, if the facts are on your side, why withhold so much evidence. Curious what you thought in assessing his answer there. His answer was pathetic, he claimed that basically he was doing it to protect the institution of the presidency. Now, look, this would be the first time in three years the Trump Administration has given one wit about the institution of the presidency as opposed to mr. Trumps personal stuff. But, you know, even on its own face, of course privileges are waived all the time. Indeed when i was in government, we did so a lot in order to get information out to the congress and the american people, particularly as you said, if youve got nothing to be afraid of, if you think what you did is right, have it out, of course the point is they always kept this stuff secret and covert. And theyre not engaging on it, neal, as they did with the call notes, even to close session with congress, if they wanted to say the facts helped them. I want to get you on something else, ill remind viewers that you do something few lawyers get to do. You walk into the supreme court, and you argue before these nine justices, which is pretty cool. I want to put up on the screen what were seeing in the coming term. Theres a lot of other news going on, even in the midst of these trump crises. Tell us about some of these cases coming. Theyre massive, like tomorrow these lgbt cases are going to come before the court. The question is whether or not title seven, its a sex discrimination, discrimination on the basis of sex, includes sexual orientation. I think its striking even today that right now in many places in america, if youre guy, you can be fired just for being gay. Thats what the court is going to talk about tomorrow. The court agreed tomorrow to hear a major Abortion Case about whether or not restrictions on abortion clinics, unduly burden a womans right to choose. Theres a lot of hot button stuff thats coming this term that started today with some criminal cases but tomorrow its going to be big. And real quick, 20 seconds, will the court hear a trump tax case or not . Do you think, theres a new york version of that. Court of appeals is going to hear it on an expedited basis next week. I do expect this case or something around this trump impeachment to go. This tax case is very easy, and i think the court will resolve it against trump very quickly without it going to the supreme court, but other trump stuff will go. Fascinating on a lot of different issues tonight on opening arguments. Neal, thank you very much. And go to msnbc. Com opening arguments, and neal katyal is someone you want to watch more than once. Well be back with one more thing. Well be back with one more thing. When you shop for your home at wayfair, you get more than Free Shipping. You get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, ill take that. Wait honey, no. When you want it. You get a delivery experience you can always count on. You get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. You get fast and Free Shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. Thats what you get when youve got wayfair. So shop now steven could only imaginem 24hr to trenjoying a spicy taco. Burn, now, his world explodes with flavor. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday allnight protection. Can you imagine 24hours without heartburn . Todays Senior Living communities have never been better, with amazing amenities like movie theaters, exercise rooms and swimming pools, public cafes, bars and bistros even pet care services. And theres never been an easier way to get great advice. A place for mom is a free service that pairs you with a local advisor to help you sort through your options and find a perfect place. A place for mom. You know your family we know Senior Living. Together well make the right choice. Heres the thing about managing for your business. S when youve got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds things can get a bit cloudy for you. But now, theres the Dell Technologies cloud, powered by vmware. A single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. That should clear things up. What exactly did you hope zelensky would do about the bidens after your phone call. Well, i would think that if they were honest about it, theyd start a Major Investigation into the bidens. Thats a voluntary confession from the president of the United States on the core issue that may come up if theres a house impeachment. Thats what i was pressing. His lawyer and what we heard yield some new information that the legal team for the president is planning to stand by that, not to say its a joke, like marco rubio, not to say it was misunderstood, but to stand by that tonight as part of their defense heading into what may be an impeachment of the current president. What you saw there on thursday is going to ricochet for a while. Thats a final thought, as always, thank yous f for joinin me, on the beat with ari melber, up next, its hardball. A second whistleblower, lets play hardball. Good evening, im Steve Kornacki in for chris matthews, the president is struggling to defend his conduct and there are new signs that more evidence about wrong doing may be on the way. Nbc news has confirmed that the legal team representing the first whistleblower now also represents another person who is coming forward. According to nbc sources, that second whistleblower has quote firsthand knowledge of the