Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20190722

For five hours before two committees. Second, he will deliver an opening statement. Thats new. Third, bill barrs d. O. J. Is again stepping in. Something weve been tracking from the start. Barr stressing anything mueller knows which is not in the report should be treated as, quote, presumptively privileged from disclosure. Lets stop right there. Why does that sound a little odd . Well, i think you know why. Bob mueller is the one who ers on the side of not commenting and disclosing. It was mueller who stayed quiet while barr released letters and excerpts which mischaracterized the Mueller Report of about it was released. When barr is demanding less disclosure, it stands out. Of course, it was Barrs Justice Department that flat out purnd muellers top prosecutors not to testify at all. And barr has opined against this weeks hearing knock being it as an unnecessary public spectacle. For all this talk about how wednesdays hearing could end up being a or dry or redo, it does appear that people inside the Trump Administration are still concerned about mueller and his team talking. Because even in his careful style, bob mueller was, in one sense, blunt in his last and only public remarks to date, saying, his probe simply did not allow him to conclude donald trump did not commit a crime. As set forth in the report after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. And they didnt say so. Now, that implicit rebuke of trump does not mean that bob mueller is now standing with the president s critics. Far from it. Remember, as a legal matter, when mueller steps in front of the world wednesday, he will be a hostile witness under subpoena. He is prepping to be pressed and to push back. Hes doing indepth briefings, mock sessions to mimic the big event, so hes ready to take on these Committee Chairs who have their own view of what mueller found. We want bob mueller to bring it to life, to talk about whats in that report. The report presents very substantial evidence that the president is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. Its a pretty damning set of facts that involve a president ial cal pacampaign in close race welcoming help from as foreign power. He is an unindicted coconspirator. Lets see where we go from there. There are damning facts in the Mueller Report. But some democrats want more than a dry factual presentation. They want to press bob mueller under oath to say in english what the Mueller Report only said in lawyer jargon. That there is substantial evidence against trump, that it comes from his own staff, and that it suggests he committed multiple crimes in office. Let me bring in our experts tonight, Richard Stengel is a top diplomat in the Obama Administration and former manager of time. Caroline dealt with George Papadopoulos and those in the probe directly. And nick, former federal prosecutor. Good evening to each of you. Great panel, if i may say so, on this big event everyone is waiting for, that the administration is apparently uncomfortable with. Nick, what does it mean when the democrats want more from mueller than they will probably get and when bill barr wants lessor nothing from mueller . They dont either side doesnt have to come out on this thing. All they need to bring out are the facts that are in this report. What they need to do is go through the eight instances of obstruction of justice on which bob mueller found a destructive act, corrupt intent and a nexus to a proceeding that trump was trying to obstruct. And then on top of it, they also had the evidence relating to the breakin to the Democratic National committee. Theyve got a statement right in that report that says, but for the fact that the national the two crimes that relate to the theft of property which mueller says, but for the fact that these two crimes only relate to tangible property goods, that he considered using those against people for trafficking in the stolen documents from the Democratic National committee. So they should take that statement, juxtapose it to what trump was doing with respect to wikileaks and what the campaign was doing to wikileaks and also go into the conspiracy relating to the social media where they have evidence from rick gates, the Deputy Campaign manager to the Campaign Manager paul manafort, who basically was instructing gates over a regular period of time throughout the campaign to provide Konstantin Kilimnik with the stalled polling data which was the demographic material that could be used to micro target Hillary Clinton voters and suppress that vote. And your point is thats in the report. It matters whether or not mueller found it to be charge age. And he couldnt find anything chargeable against the president under his analysis, the hearing should really put that before everyone. I want to bring in stengel who is both a longtime journalist and diplomat. As a diplomat, you smooth over im an undiplomatic diplomat achlgt okay, good. As a journalist you look for the gaps. I ask you to look at the diplomacy also known as the spin, and then the real gaps in what im going to read from this new report tonight, that mr. Barr, who represents donald trump who they all said oh, its fine, dry, do over, no big deal. What im hearing now is they have been extensively pressing mueller. They dont want to place muellers team in front of lawyers in the d. O. J. , but reading here from this, they say we want to place lawyers in the room, but theyd have little recourse to prevent mueller from going off script and reveal details of his investigation that the white house considers off limits. That basically because theyre not going to put people in the room to muzzle him, they have been extensively meeting how can they do that . Theyve been meeting with him saying everything that is not in the report proper is presumptively privileged. What is going on here . The d. O. J. Has been 3450meet with mueller beforehand . Theyve been telling his people maybe through intermediaries, theyve been telling him extensively, this is the headline, mueller should limit his testimony of the report. Res ipso loquitur. What they are worried about is bob mueller standing there talking directly to camera, answering questions will bring this alive in a way a 448 page report never can be. Thing that thing that i as a journalist would look for, the absolute nut im not going to do the perry mason thing because you never get a Perry Mason Perry mason para docks. There you go. The question is why didnt mueller indict him. Was it because the president didnt commit a crime . Or because there was the jurisdiction, the office of Legal Counsel guidelines from the Justice Department saying, you cant indict a sitting president . That would be the one question i would want to have clarity on. And the problem is that hes probably just going to say whats exactly in the report which he said in that brief press conference. You say hell never answer that. Never. You dealt with the team, take a look at how hes ducked in the past. Yeah. I hesitate to speculate because i have just a piece of the puzzle also. I would have to check to make certain. In every investigation, particularly a fastmoving investigation, there are steps taken that may or may not workout. Its very difficult to generalize or to reach some sort of understanding or make progress with that generalization. What is mbaps so interestin even in the face of all of this, theyre scared he may go rogue. Theyre scared of that 1 possibility. Bob is a rule follower now. Hes a private citizen now. He doesnt have to listen to the d. O. J. Presumptive privilege isnt a legal thing. Is it not a thing in your view . Its not a thing. Its been well documented there is no blanket privilege. Wait, complete the point. There is an agreement here its not a thing. What is it . The point is theyre really scared of this very minute chance he could be so upset that he would fly in the face of his whole history. Everything that hes ever lived for, which is that he sticks to the books. He sticks to the four corners of the reports and everything that we know about him, that theres a small possibility that, again, he may go off script and give information they think could be damaging. Thats just not going to happen. Right. Then it goes to what the president did today, nick, which is you could say hes always mixed. He says, oh, this guys got conflicts, but take his word for the way ive mischaracterized his findings. But he does appear still concerned about what is going to happen. Its not easy breezy. Take a look. We had no collusion, no obstruction. We had no nothing. We had a total no collusion finding. The phony investigation where the report was written. It said no collusion. There was no obstruction. Robert mueller, i know hes conflicted. Theres a lot of conflicts hes got including the fact his best friend is comey. But hes got conflicts with me, too. Hes got big conflicts with me. He still ruled and i respikt ecm for it. He still ruled no collusion. If you read this report, and you pull out the facts that are there, forget him going rogue. The fact remains, once you put all that evidence out in the obstruction, there was obstruction. Theres no question. The facts speak for themselves. The problem is the public has not had the opportunity to zero in on those facts. And i think thats why the stakes are high even if people feel this is not ideally timed. Donald trump may be onto a political propaganda strategy by trying to make everyone feel this is somehow, quoteunquote, older news. Why are we still talking about that . President trump understands how to appeal to things that may sound like theyre vaguely in the ballpark. The fact there is a methodical process and a subpoena doesnt tell you anything about the underlying facts. I want to do two things. I want to get rick back in. I got everything. You pick out the page you would like to most ask mueller about, that you think is most important. Wait, and you get a minute for your homework of what you would ask. Neal katyal said one good question would be, did you find there was no obstruction . Mueller could say no. If thats what he would say, did you find there was, quote, no collusion . Mueller would say, no. That would be a real evisceration of what barr, his boss, has claimed. By the way, i did not get my memo on the copy of the Mueller Report. I carry this around with me all the time. Im going to mention one pet peeve about a person who has testified before the house before. The problem is each member gets five minutes and each member is thinking probably as much about people back home as he is thinking about the witness. And what happens is instead of going sequentially, trying to figure something out, each person tries to get his own perry mason moment and they come to nothing. Obsessed with perry mason. Yes. Nobody under the age of 50 knows who that is. False. Fact check false . To get mueller to actually Say Something that might be potentially revealing, they have to Work Together to get the questions in a sequential order rather than each one doing his or her own questions five minutes. I have one question while were doing references because caroline has been giving us guidance and youre a very sharp lawyer yourself. You say people know perry mason over 50 . Yes. How about matlock . Yes. Adicus finch . Oh, yes. Id like to direct your attention to 76 which is a section relating to roger stone and the dissemination of the stolen emails from the Democratic National committee. Its a fact, is it not, mr. Mueller if you look at that footnote that your office considered charging people with the theft of stolen property and trafficking in stolen property, is that right . So youre saying, ands this is important. Talk about something that got lost we reported on. Youre talking about they only charged stone for certain things. But youre saying they took very seriously the possibility that people high in the Trump Campaign would have been potentially involved or chargeable for those crimes . They said they considered it. Mr. Mueller, i dont want you to tell me who you considered or how many people you considered, but its a fact, is it not, based on your report, that this was something that you considered at least against one individual in the Trump Campaign. And given that we have a former representative of a trump official, play us out, if you would, the counter argument. Is it the counter argument, republicans on the committee will certainly stick to this, if bob mueller of all people turned everything over, skissed michqu michael cohen, there was a case if he didnt find it . That would be an argument i may make in terms of specific individuals. I think why nick is so right on the money, the questioning needs to be so pointed, youll notice his questions werent openended. So were not going to hear these muellerisms, these double negatives. We did not conclude that he did not commit a crime. And you kind of have to think it over in your mind multiple times. Only leave it open to a skilled crossexamination. You get them to go along with your narrative. You continue talking and its a yes or no question. Yes, boom, no, boom, you get your narrative out there. Thats whats going to be so important. If democrats or republicans, really, if they want to shape whatever narrative theyve got, its not going to be a quotation from bob mueller. Its going to be their quote and him acknowledging yes or no. Which really goes to the question, you have not all seen the story the same way. Ive interviewed you previously so i know that. I think our viewers may know that. Each of you with what could make or break wednesday, do these people who live their lives as politicians find it in their oath of office to stem step back from that and do skillful questioning that informs the public or to quote not quote, but paraphrase, Richard Stengel or are they out there thirst trapping for a perry mason moment . I do think this is im not going to say that name again. This is the moment where they have to become patriots and statesmen and say, we have to educate the public about this. Volume one, you have to educate the public about the fact that we were attacked in a comprehensive way by a foreign adversary. Whether or not the Trump Campaign worked with them or not is almost doesnt matter. And volume two, did the president commit crimes to cover that up even if he was in charge of the first we have to go to a break. If he wasnt the president of the United States. Richard a. K. A. Perry, caroline and Nick Ackerman with the visual aid. Thank you each and ill be coming back to you to get your views on what goes down on wednesday. The reason we have to fit in a break, we have so much more including a fact check of Stephen Miller defending Donald Trumps race baiting. Does donald trump want to enrich himself by putting the g7 at his own golf course. Neal katyal is here to talk about trumps new legal strategy many and i have a live interview with a critic who might challenge trump in the primary. A show to start the week monday fall back with andrew yang and hiphops jermaine dupre. Im ari melber, youre watching the beat on msnbc. T on msnb}÷ avo life doesnt give you many second chances. But a subaru can. dad you guys ok . You alright . Wow. avo eyesight with precollision braking. Standard on the subaru ascent. The threerow subaru ascent. Love. Its what makes a subaru a subaru. The way you triumph over adversity. And live your lives. Thats why we redesigned humira. We wanted to make the experience better for you. Now theres less pain immediately following injection. Weve reduced the size of the needle and removed the citrate buffers. And it has the same effectiveness you know and trust. Humira citratefree is here. A little change can make a big difference. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections. 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We run right into these crises, and we do not leave until normalcy is restored. Wed been working for days on a site in a stormdevastated area. A family pulled up. It was a mom and her kids. Everything they had had been washed away. The only thing that brought any kind of solace was the ability to hand her a device so she could call her family and let them know that she was okay. vo there for you when it matters most. And now, get a free Samsung Galaxy s10e when you buy one. Thats verizon. Lets start with the facts. Donald trump wrote the lines that his crowd chanted about sending a u. S. Congresswoman back home and stood by as they then chanted for 13 seconds straight. A fact bedevils trumps top aide. Watch as Stephen Miller says President Trump disagreed we very chant and watch this claim get blown up on fox news. With the send her back chant, the president was clear that he disagreed with it. He was clear after the fact excuse me. He let it go on for 13 seconds and was only when the chant diminished that he started talking again. Right. He said nothing there. He said nothing in his tweet i promise, im going to hear you. He said nothing there or in his tweet after the rally that indicated any concern about the chant. But i want to get to the core issue. Yes, lets get to the core issue. What youre saying isnt true. Of course, this was after trump himself claimed at one point that he disagreed with the chant he wrote and then reembraced it. Donald trump back at it saying the congress women, theyre the ones who hate america. He claims no racial tension. There is new reporting his own advisors wanted to focus on their ideas and behavior of his opponents. Their concern that trumps attacks are actually, quote, looking like a racist agenda. Now, one of the four, congresswoman Rashida Tlaib hitting back today. Hello yeah, im not going nowhere. Not until i impeach this president. Its beyond just the four of us. The squad is all of you. Joined by former white house and state Department Officer in the Obama Administration. Host of vices latin ex. Thanks to both of you being here. Lets start with what we are witnessing which is slowly and painfully and obviously some factual problems even over there on fox news for people like mr. Miller who want to lie about what happened. Its a slow and factual and painful thing to see that many people do agree with this. And donald trump is tapping into a part of american identity that frankly hasnt really been resolved since the civil war, right, when we talk about the remaining confederate statues and the flags and People Holding onto these what about the idea that it appears to be a problem for them to pretend donald trump didnt support this. I think the problem is that they dont want to they want to dance around the actual issue and arent outright coming and owning the fact that theyre playing to this american sentiment. They understand there is a media layer that needs to be satisfied as well and theres all sorts of other quoteunquote elites. I think down on the street and at these rallies, they are openly allowing people and encouraging this type of sentiment. Donald trump is running a twopart strategy. There is a strategy for the culture war in which hes very clearly come down on the side of america has to look and sound a certain way. A very authoritarian, very white. And the 270 straight strategy, how do you win the electoral college. The second piece is what elected officials and people running for office need to figure out how to navigate. But the first one, the culture dynamic, thats really for everyday citizens to work out in their own communities. The reason why im pushing, i think you make very important points. Im pushing because it seems that not to make light of this, but there is an aspect of this that what happens at a maga rally should stay at a maga rally. If they think they can get away with that and then in the green rooms and establishment and tv, even on fox, claim that it didnt happen, they somehow will thread this needle. And to that point for your analysis, take a look at mike pence also doing that. I suppose the question is what happens to this dance if even on fox what happens at the maga rally doesnt stay there. The president wasnt pleased about it and neergt was i. Lets be clear about that. You have a chance to tway it right now, dont do it again. Is that your message . Major, the president was very clear. Was he . That he wasnt happy about it. And if it happened again, he, he might he hed make an effort to speak out about it. Theyre disappointed with us. They want us to be having this exact conversation and have us debate whether or not it was racist and whether or not they meant that. They designed a racist america. They design not by accident, but by choice every single day the fact families are being separated. Kids are in cages. Deportations are being expedited. It is okay to chant send her back. That is a designed strategy. And that is then using racism as a weapon. That is the basis of what were seeing and it is they want us to have this conversation, but we know that that is exactly the america that they promised on day one and that is the america that he will end with. Let me play for you also the way that trump aides are defending this. I think the thing about the president tweeting is on the one hand it may be very ugly and requires some sort of accountability. On the other hand, it does add transparency because you can see now there is a written record of him writing, go back home. So when people chant it, we know they are repeating what he wrote, not the other way around. This is the last piece of fox sound im going to play for you, but it is worth witnessing them struggling to deal with it because they dont want to fully defend that. I dont think they were saying send her back as much as theyre saying, these views are repugnant. Some people at a trump rally make some innocent little chant borne of fun. Its a take off on lock her up. Citizens of this country in North Carolina having a little fun, maybe getting carried away. They chant some pretty bad stuff at a football game. Politics is a tough sport. This is a cover for what is actually deeply personal and deeply painful policy for many people of color, right. The same guy who is on fox news defending this is the same guy in the white house who is orchestrating policies under the rubric of the statue of liberty doesnt stand for immigration and freedom. Theyre talking about reducing the number of refugees to zero. Theyre talking about a wall at the border. There are policies that are part and parcel of all of this rhetoric, and that is what, in getting distracted by donald trump tweets, we often miss, is that they are looking to put into our system a vision of america that unfortunately may outlast donald trump. Right. And as you say, its not just fact check what theyre saying, but also understand that is the context of the appeal and the policies they are trying to shape. There is evidence tonight, what im making sure people understand, there is evidence that they are worried theyre losing and thats why there is some backtracking. Thanks to both of you. With bob mueller set to testify this week, were getting new details and we have quite the guest, the one and only neal katyal former solicitor general who will explain when were back in 30 seconds. re back in 30 seconds. Bob muellers testimony on wednesday will mark the 89th time hes actually faced congress in some fashion. This is far from his first rodeo, and we do know he makes a point of being prepared. While the exact plans for wednesday remain a closely guarded secret, the New York Times reporting muellers practice is to meet late into the evenings with staff for days ahead of congressional appearances. Studying binders of material and treating the prep a bit like a mock president ial debate with aides playing particular members of congress. Most likely to be spoiling for a fight. Back with me for our opening argument series is former acting solicitor general neal katyal who argued dozens of cases before the Supreme Court. Good to see you. Good to see you. There is so much talk about the substance, what is in the report, what will he say. We all understand how most hearings, and you know this better than many, how they can devolve and this was discussed a little earlier in the show. I want do play some vintage 2013 mueller with the particularly difficult member of congress. Take a look. Your facts are not altogether well i point out specifically may i finish point out specifically sir, if youre going to call me a liar, you need to point out specifically where any facts are wrong. We went to the mosque. To boston. Prior to boston . Prior to boston. Which mueller are we seeing and which mueller are we going to see wednesday . I suspect were going to see both. Look, theres a lot of great decent members of congress both on the republican and democratic side who will ask good questions. But i think mueller is right to prepare for questions from what can be termed the banana wing of the Republican Party, of which you know that representative and there are some others are there. I think were going to see some weird questions, but i suspect that you know that mueller is prepared for those as well. We discussed, and i have quoted some of your interesting questions you would pose to him. When you see these new reports that barr Justice Department continues to try to narrow what will come out of this hearing, what does that say to you . Im extremely concerned. I dont think its narrow. I think theyre trying to gag mueller and trying to say anything not in the report is presumptively privileged. Mueller is so by the book, i is suspe suspect that will influence him greatly what barr and others are trying to say trying to squelch him. Let me pause, i used the looser term of narrow. Youre using barr gagging mueller and leaning into what barr knows, moves mueller with what he knows whether or not that is the rules. If the politico report is right, that does seem to me what its about. Heres a good example of where i think theres going to be a problem. We know mueller is by the book, but the books actually changed, ari, from the time he turned in the report to now because he turned in the report and said, i cant indict a sitting president and, indeed, a core larry of that is i cant even accuse someone of saying i would have indicted you or labeled you a criminal if i cant indict you because youre not going to have a process to defend yourself. Barr a month later goes before the cameras on cbs news, oh, i think mueller could have reached a conclusion whether President Trump committed crimes. Thats a perfect example of how the book changed and the questions the democrats should be leading the hearing with. Let me push you a little bit. Viewers of our recurring segments know i usually listen and learn from you and you have a lot more litigation experience than i ever did. But i wonder whether respectfully you might sound like a little bit of Wishful Thinking if the logical point you make is supposed to mean that bob mueller is going to go farther. I think youre right, the logic of what mr. Barr said would open the door, but isnt everything we know about bob mueller that if he didnt go farther than x in the report, hes not going to go farther on wednesday . The whole point is hes by the book. The book said in before he turned in the report, according to him, he thought the book said, i cant indict, i cant even label you a criminal. Now barr comes along a month later trying to criticize mueller and say actually thats not what the book says. The book allows you to do that. You think he will go further . I think he absolutely should go further. This is going to be in fact, i think thats the job, right . If youre special counsel, youve got to follow the regulations and what the attorney general tells you the rules are. Hes saying this is what the rule is. So absolutely, i think its fully within his powers. Indeed, i dont see how he cant answer that question. Ill make you a deal, counselor. Lets meet up some other monday and talk about this. Lets do it. Id love that. About before i let you go, i want to ask you something about you drew our staffs attention to, very important, a little off the beat enpath. Socalled emergency appeals in the Supreme Court. Bush used them 6, obama 4, and boom, 28 by trump, emergency requests. Sometimes because theyre losing so much. Explain. You can make an emergency request if youre the solicitor general to the Supreme Court when you lose a case in the trial court or court of appeals. You do it rarely. I might have done it once when i was there. Obama we did it once every other year on average, four times in eight years. Trump is doing it an astounding 28 times. We havent seen anything like this. And the question is whats going on . And i think whats going on is two things and its supported by reporting in the New York Times and other places over the last couple days. Number one is the Trump Administration doesnt really care about the law. Their view is, even if we lose in court, hey, weve signalled to our base that were tough on immigration, whatever. Its all performance. Indeed, they have the lowest rate of success in federal litigation of any administration in i think ever in the history of since statistics have been tracked. Thats a really fascinating flag. It actually is the legal version of fighting without regard to the outcomes because he wants to show fight, as you say, and ive got to fit in a break, but makes me wonderer are they tired of winning. Neal katyal, eagle eyed and well do it again. All right. If youre interested in catching more neal, msnbc. Com will tell you everything you need to get ready for the hearing. No popcorn included. I have a m drew young and jermaine dupre. He may challenge trump in the primary. Well get into that live. Trump pushing his resort to 0 host a meeting and why thats unconstitutional. Beep goes off ] now that you have new dr. Scholls massaging gel advanced insoles with softer, bouncier gel waves, youll move over 10 more than before. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. Would shakespeare have chosen just some pens . S. Methinks a tul pen would serve mlady well. Thanks and a unicorn notebook get everything on your list. This weeks doorbuster notebooks for 10¢, 10¢ in store or online from the advisors at office depot officemax. Prpharmacist recommendedne memory support brand. You can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Who used expedia to book the Vacation Rental which led to the discovery that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. Expedia. Everything you need to go. Expedia. What do all these people have in common, limu . Oug [ paper rustling ] exactly, nothing. 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Check out this brandnew story that hes pitching this, struggling doral resort as a place to host and profit off one of the Biggest International summits in existence, the g7. Trump has gone from using his campaign attention to plug doral to now trying to use your government to get paid. Its the best course there is. Some of the players that just walked off, they said this is as good as it gets. Doral, where right now we have the world golf championships. I buy doral in miami. It was a mess. Now its the hottest resort. Including doral in miami. As you know, doral, which i own. Doral in miami. Why would something so iconic need to be sold so hard . Well, doral has been bleeding profits, down 41 million since 2016, and this is where trumps conflicts mix with desperation because despite all that promo, there is still a Strong Negative view of trump as president. Hotel customers are not allotted like the electoral college. Being unpopular matters. Experts say doral is hitting all these problems because of the negative connotation associated with the trump brand. Trump may have run for president to burnish his brand, but being president is hurting it. If doral hosts the g7, notice where his profits would come from. Foreign governments. Thats more than a conflict of interest. It could be an unconstitutional foreign gift. The very issue trump is currently defending in court in a major suit by members of congress. Well keep you posted on all of it. Now, when we come back, a fall back special tonight with 2020 dem andrew yang and jermaine dupre. And jermaine dupre. On a full line of utility vehicles. At the lexus golden opportunity sales event. Lease the 2019 rx 350 for 389 a month, for 36 months, and well make your first months payment. Experience amazing. Hey, who are you . Oh, hey jeff, im a car thief. What . im here to steal your car because, well, thats my job. What . What . . What . laughing what . . What . what . 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Dont start humira if you have an infection. Ask your doctor about humira citratefree. Heres to you. Dto experiencer gthrilling performance. Now, at the lexus golden opportunity sales event. Get 0. 9 apr for 60 months on all 2019 models. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. Here, hello starts with hi mple. How can i help . A data plan for everyone. Everyone . Everyone. Lets send to everyone [ camera clicking ] wifi up there . Ahhh. Sure, why not . Howd he get out . a camera might figure it out. That was easy glad i could help. At xfinity, were here to make life simple. Easy. Awesome. So come ask, shop, discover at your xfinity store today. Time now for a special edition of fall back. I am joined by hiphop executive producer and song writer jermaine dupre. Hes collaborated with all sorts of artists, usher, mariah carey, jay z, kanye. Member of the song writers hall of fame, grammy winning artist. He worked with mariah carey on we belong together. His new documentary power, influence and hiphop. Covers all of the hits. Most were focused on rap or focused on r b. He was able to do them both. Don chichi, jermaine dupre. I think that he is a major icon of our time. Sheshes a rapper, hes a diva. Divo. Andrew yang, tech entran nur and philanthropist, Obama Administration, selected him as a champion of change for his Work Training people in tech. Thanks for both of you for being here. Thanks for having me. Its great to be here, man. I love seeing the two of you together. Love being here. Ying and the yang. Thats right. I may see the yen. The yingyang twins. They call it ganggang. You have to go there. Theres a yang yang rap, yang yang videos on line. I want you to produce one. Andrew, who needs to fall back . I think the New York Knicks need to fall back on so many levels. Ive been a fan since i was a kid. Summer League Knicks skipped shaking hands with their opponent after the Third Straight game. No way, you cant be displaying poor sportsmanship on top of losing the game on top 69 epic mismanagement of the team. Its like a team now composed of overpaid role players after they missed out on kevin durant and kyrie irving and everyone else. So being a knicks fan, its never been harder, never been worse. If youre going to be bad, at least be good sports about it. Its fun in, im from atlanta. What i hear new yorkers say, ive been a knicks fan my whole life. And i think that sometimes youve got to pull away in order for people to get their mind right. Yeah, you have to end an abusive relationship. And thats what being a knicks fan is like. Jermaine, who needs to fall back . Arbys. I dont know what yall talking about, yall need to fall all the way back. What is, what is a meatbased vegetable. Arbys making waves because theyre making carrots with meat. I feel like theyre trying to make fun ever vegans. For real. Its like all this vegan talk and all these other restaurants. And youre vegan. Yeah. Lets do something thats different. I think its a way to have meat as your main and then meat as your side, and then meat as your other side. Its more ways to get meat on the plate. At a certain point, if this is an arbys meat carrot, at some point just get a burger. Thats what im saying. Are three trying to attract me . They want me to come in there and say i want a carrot. Trick me into eating meat. Maybe its for husbands who want to seem like theyre eating healthy to their wife. Watch me eat these carrots but theyre really eating a steak. Im not married. I wouldnt know anything about that. My fallback is a little bit consumption food related, which is starbucks has uncorked this t tiedye frappuccino. Im more of a coffee person. Tiedye is something thats fun. It may be ugly fashion, but its fun. People are hating on the tiedye frappuccino. Im telling them to fall back. You can have a tiedye drink if you want. Whats wrong with tiedye . When youre a kid, you get a drink off the ice cream truck. The color. The rainbow is part of it. When you give my kids a choice of any ice cream, they want rainbow sprinkles. How do you feel about tiedye . I dont know if you have a policy on that. I just couldnt pull it off as a kid. I wore a tiedye. People are like why is the asian guy wearing a tiedye . Im the last person to pull off the hippies 60s. I wore a tiedye. What is that, a 70s throw back . It was a white jumper and we just tiedye so it had a bunch of colors. Nice. What else is on your fallback list, jermaine . The Patti Labelle thing. They spend labelle wrong. Trying to honor her. I have a question. Is it normal to, um, um, capitalize the b in labelle . If it wasnt Patti Labelle, would you capitalize the b . Are you good at spelling, andrew . I was a bit of a nerd, i won spelling bees. Is that a thing to capitalize the b . That b should be capitalized, thats my expert my expert opin oh, okay. The french root. The woman or the girl. Boom. So b, like the there it is. Okay. The french root. All right. Im glad we got you here. Thats the kind of judgement we need in the white house. 100 . Okay. Well, thats what im talking about. Jermaine dupree, thanks for being here. Andrew yang, thanks for being here. What other judgement do we need in the white house . Well, former republican marc sanford is here. There will be no spelling tests, sir, but ill see you on the other side when we come back. Yoe other side when we come back you get the price match guarantee. So if you find your room at a lower rate, hilton is like. Were gonna match that rate and give you an extra 25 off. What would travel sites do if you found a better price . Thats not my problem, its your problem. Get outta here whoa, i really felt that performance. Its just acting, im really good at it. Book at hilton. Com and get the hilton price match guarantee. If you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25 off that stay. 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Trump actually helped dislodge him from office after endorsing his primary challenger and alluding to his past personal problems. Hes also poised for a political fight and has been a vocal critic. Somebodys got to stop trump. I think it is dangerous for our republic. There is no seeming consequence for the president and lies. He came to this chamber, sent a chilling message to my colleagues, which is, if you mess with me, ill mess with you. Mark sanford, thanks for coming on the beat. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. If you challenge donald trump in a republican primary, what is your argument against him . My argument against him my chief argument against him would be that hes in essence led the Republican Party off to the sidelines as it relates to the way that we spend money. I mean, not so many months ago republicans would have been going nuts if the budget deal thats now being contemplated. You really dont hear a peep from republicans. This idea of financial realism or financial conservatism used to be a hallmark of the Republican Party. Sure. He has said himself that im the king of debt. Its something that doesnt bother me. The problem is he always had his daddy to bail him out when he got into trouble. We do not have that luxury as americans and we are in a profound math matich problemati. Do we believe what we used to say about fiscal conservatism . Thats what i want to ask you about. Your point here is in line with the economic facts, and ive had Trump Officials on this show and talked to them and pressed them with the rising deficits, the type of spending that theyre doing that they were so critical of when obama did it. But does that mean that your campaign rises or falls on whether the trump base has been consistent about its beliefs or whether everything goes out the window because it wasnt ever about the deficit . Well, my belief is, i mean, you have to remember, ari, ive been in politics both as a twoterm governor, you know, 12 years in the United States house of representatives. I bet ive had thousands upon thousands of different meetings with folks at the grassroot level. And so i dont think that their belief system, that Small Business person that ive talked to, that soccer mom trying to get their kids to and from soccer practice. Whatever the case might be, you think about those people that make up the Republican Party, i dont think their belief system has disappeared. I do think that leadership from washington has disappeared on this front, and thats what im exploring over these 30 days as to whether go versus nogo. What do you know from as you mentioned your Longtime Service as a pretty long time as a republican in the house. If youre going to take him on, he doesnt hold back. You know that about him. Yeah. So are you going to hold back . I think thats an understatement. Being a human pinata doesnt have a whole lot of appeal. But heres the bottom line. Let me tell you where im going with this. Are you going to uncork and let everyone know everything you know about what the Republican Caucus really thinks, about what paul ryan really thought of him back in the day, about what Lindsey Graham really says behind closed doors . Is it one of your greatest assets, your ability to take us into those secret cloak rooms where we hear all these hints and rumors and leaks that maybe some of these republicans dont actually abide by what donald trump does . Is that going to be something thats off limits for you . I think to your general point i think to your general point there is something of a conspiracy of silence on that front, but some of it has already been exposed. I think tim alberta just did an interesting writeup on paul ryan and what he believes now versus then. But by interviewing people like you. Someone had to tell tim the stories. Yeah, i wasnt a part of that particular piece, but i think it was rather revealing on what paul ryan really thought about President Trump so let me ask you this, we talked economics in your story before i let you go and toss to hardball, do you think that more people in the Republican Caucus and congress are concerned about Donald Trumps management, the chaos and the race baiting or do you think theyre actually secretly fine with all of it . I dont think theyre fine with that, but, again, i want to go back to the core of what im trying to get to the bottom of over these 30 days, which is i particularly dont think theyre fine with the way in which washington is spending their money these days. Anything else we should know before i let you go . I got 30 seconds. 30 seconds . Yes, sir. What id say is were walking our way towards the most predictable financial crisis in the history of man and it will impact every one of us and our hopes and dreams for our kids if we dont get this thing right. Mark sanford, considering a run from the deficit right of donald trump. Governor, congressman, thanks for coming unthe beat. My pleasure. Yes, sir. If you jump in the primary, well be sure to have you back. That does it for the beat tonight. Appreciate you spending some time with us. Ill be back live from washington tomorrow, 6 00 eastern for the eve of the mueller hearings with, i promise, some very special guests tomorrow. Dont go anywhere. Hardball with Chris Matthews is up next. No truce. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. In just a moment, brandnew reporting on efforts by the department of justice to convince Robert Mueller to limit his testimony this week. Ill talk to the vice chair of the judiciary committee. First up, President Trump is not stopping his attacks on four minority congresswomen, now with his latest argument against the squad. After he spent last week trying to reverse the fallout from his racist tweet the weekend before, attacking the