I know you do and if my brain was working better then i would give you one right now. Man walks into a bar. What did he say . What . Ouch. Okay. Okay. Ah, we cant get this time back and thats my fault. Okay. Katy tur, thank you as always. Turning from bad jokes to a very big show, i do have a lot of news for you were tracking a few stories, number one, how bob mueller is probing the pivotal 18 days before Michael Flynn was ousted and whether that means trouble for donald trump. Today also three women publicly detailing their harassment allegations against President Trump and calling for a new action. We start tonight in alabama where the Republican Party drew an ethical line two weeks ago thats now become something of an amoral soup and there are three keys to this battle which could upend politics in tomorrows vote. Tonight i would argue we have all three covered in our big story with some special guests. Number one, will gender up end a 20year winning streak for republicans in alabama. Number two, is class an aversion to all things washington driving the rebellion of politics in this state, alabama native son and former executive editor of the New York Times joins me on location in a moment. And also number three, are the allegations against roy moore even broader than many realize tonight because they involve not only alleged sex crimes, but also a different crime, alleged crime, abuse of power in how he operated as d. A. Which is a perch he allegedly used to prey on teenage girls. Former roy moore opponent bob vance a judge on that in a few moments as well. As you can see we have a lot of great guests. We are also right now just an hour away from roy moores election eve speech. Hes going to be joined on stage here for his Closing Argument with former trump aide steve bannon and here is how the democrat in this race, doug jones, laid out the stakes today. Its a referendum not just on the issues weve got but its who we are and what were going to tell our daughters and is alabama going to stand with our daughters . Joining me now is Washington Post reporter and the wall streets reporter shelby. A lot more folks going to join. Starting in with that Closing Argument from the democrat, what does it tell you and i would ask you to speak to us on two level, the ethical level and the political level that have Closing Argument . So, doug jones is trying to appeal to the alabama deserves better than this argument that we heard from none other than the senior senator from that state this weekend and also trying to appeal to republican women specifically saying you can either vote for me, you can stay home but you can do, you know, you can deert either of those things as a protest against voting for in man who he is arguing they should not dignify with a vote. Thats its a powerful moral argument. It is an historical argument but, you know, the question of whether or not it will go beyond the giant class divide that were seeing in this race really remains to be seen. Yeah, i think politically obviously a lot is at stake seeing it in the polls. Democrats are more enthusiastic. Doug jones has a lot of people excited about the race who typically wouldnt be excited about an Alabama Senate race. We are seeing the ethical debate excite a lot but on the republican side we are hearing from a lot of republicans who say, whether or not they like roy moore, theyre still voting for him. Vice did a town hall style sitdown with them and one woman said policy is everything so it doesnt matter if we like him. Were still voting for the conservative policies we believe in and something we saw in the 2016 election, were seeing it again and the last point i would make still to this day a candidates denial is weighed more heavily than some evidence from accusers. So a lot of people say you better have proof. We still havent seen the proof. Theyre doubting the womens stories. They dont want Washington Post in their backyard. They dont want Gloria Allred in their backyard. Some dont want the president or former president doing robocalls and feels like the nation has been telling them who to vote for for months and theyre sick of it. You raise that question of when and how are women believed or disbelieved in politics. And we are also seeing concurrently a surge of women running for office, you know, these stories sometimes appear to be all about the darkness but look at this, anne, and give us context. Youve covered so many races in washington. More women than weve seen according to the numbers than ever before. Including a whole lot of Democratic Women. Theres been a concerted effort ever since Donald Trumps election to get more Democratic Women to run, a grassroots effort for women to run for everything from, you know, county commissioner on up. And its definitely having an effect in terms of the number of people turing out and the amount of money theyre able to raise. What were seeing in the alabama race, though, is this is a pretty retro race. Its two white guys and either one of whom on paper are qualified to do the job. Where gender and, you know, the question of believability comes in is purely on the question of whether or not women who might otherwise have no qualms what soever about voting for roy moore say they will not and that is where the democratic argument is aimed. Just dont what theyre saying essentially, dont do it. Dont do that to yourself. Dont do that to the state. Youre saying the democratic Closing Argument even though as you put it retro vintage or one can think of other words for these two alabama men running is really about as you put it an appeal to swing women voters in alabama. Absolutely and its an appeal that on some leffs vels is cyni. That could mean dont vote. Like dont vote for this guy. According to a fox news poll 8 of voters are still undecided so thats a huge number going a day into an election. Stay with me both. I want to bring in from the feel the stormer executive editor of the New York Times. Native son of alabama. Making a lot of waves and writing while people fear being deticked as total rednecks they also like to buck tradition which is spreading. Quote, alabamas preference for officials regarded as unfit by the rest of the nation is now a national tic. Howell, explain your argument and respond to anything you just heard from our two reporters here. Well this, is a watershed election for alabama. The most important since 1970. Back then i began my career covering rally for wallace where he made alabama a showcase for bigotry in america and tonight we have a half century later and steve bannon and roy moore are here trying to see if that same old trick will work on the people of this much misserved state. You say bigotry, do you see the racial underpinnings as equal or greater than the alleged sexism and the alleged predation by roy moore . No, i think roy moore is offering up a trumpian buffet of it and it includes race, but it also emphasizes a cultural war thats going on here, and i think the most striking thing here is the defection of affluent, educated women in the republican suburbs around birmingham, montgomery and mobile. That and the black turnout which was the focus of doug jones activities this weekend will decide this race, and this is the first time in i think two decades that a democrat has had a chance in alabama. Its a really exciting opportunity for the state to become the last state of the old confederacy to elect a truly modern new south leader like jimmy carter in georgia or ruben askew and that happened 30 years ago. Poor alabama is way behind, but this is a big opportunity for the state. Yes, sir, and you talk about defecting, speak to anne gearans point and have her respond. Do you mean defecting, that these women voters in alabama who normally traditionally are democrat democratic and could go no, i think defecting by turnout will be the deciding factor. And my sense is that the younger women in this state and some of the older church women in the state are crossing over and i think i told a group of alabama businessmen last week about 20 of them that if i could privately hear who their wives and daughters were setting for and not what they were telling their husbands and fathers, i could predict the outcome, so i think what were looking for is the degree of crossover as opposed to staying home. Although its doug jones who said very candidly, every republican who stays home helps him. Anne, go ahead. For sure. In any race where i mean the secretary of state is predicting a turnout of maybe 25 , it could be larger than that. But even though, its clearly going to be, you know, by, you know far, far less than 50 , maybe less considerably less than 30 . Every crossover vote counts an enormous amount, and i think howell is right. There certainly is likely to be a secret vote here where moderate republican women of any age are willing to vote for doug jones as well as people who will stay home who never would have dreamed of doing so in any other race. Right, and he mentions the history, Richard Shelby being someone who won as a democrat although then he joined the gop. My next guest as promised bob vance came within four points of beading roy moore in 2012. He questioned his approach to office and now under scrutiny again whether he abused his power as d. A. He once told a 16yearold that nobody would, quote, believe her because he was the d. A. Allegedly, a claim he still denies. I want to bring in bob vance, alabama circuit judge to our full panel. Everyone with a good reason for being here and you as well. And the kids use the term loser. We dont think of you as a loser. Thank you. You came so close in what was a traditional environment, you outperformed what democrats typically do against roy moore so you have a real insight on whats happening. First tell us whats happening and then, second, speak to the other piece of this. The idea that there is an allegation not only that roy moore was a predator but an allegation that he was abusing his power as d. A. Right. Whats happening now in the election is what happened in my race against roy moore in 2012. And that is based on the central truth that roy moore is a very divisive person even among republicans. There are many republicans in the suburbs of birmingham and huntsville and mobile, for example, traditional establishment type republicans who just cannot stomach the social conservatism, the hot button issues that roy moore keeps campaigning on. So, i knew that getting into my race that there is an opportunity there to peel away what i always call the reasonable republicans. And to get their support simply because of who roy moore, my opponent, was, and doug jones faces the same opportunity in winning votes from a number of people in the state of alabama who otherwise would not dream of voting democrat. Now, to your point about his history of abuse of power, keep in mind that the central accuser against roy moore, ms. Corfman was a 14yearold child with her mom waiting to be called into court to testify. Mr. Moore at that time was an assistant District Attorney. Now, in Rural Counties especially like this, assistant District Attorney is a high figure of authority. Sure. Law and order. Someone you can feel comfortable with, someone you can entrust your child to, we would think. And roy moore comes up, strikes up a conversation, tells ms. Corfmans mother, you can go in and testify, ill sit with your girl out here. And used that entree to try to develop some sort of relationship with this 14yearold child at the time. That is the kind of abuse of power that turned a lot of people off, its just one indication of mr. Moores history, of course, hes always had a history of abusing power. Thats why he was removed. Right. Going to ten commandments. Shelby, go ahead. Another point, 33 of voters dont believe these allegations, many republicans dont believe the allegations, and i think what were seeing here, we talked about it last week, when they commit they stay committed and they filter in information that justifies their commitment. So we are seeing that but i also we heard voters say, well, things were different 40 years ago this. Is how theyre justifying it. 40 years ago older men did date younger women and people married younger in alabama. If roy moore had just said when these allegations came forward i dont even know if wed be sitting here talking about it but still to this day hes denying everything. Because were short on time but voters are listening to that. Judge vance i will buy that and were out of time. I give you what is your Closing Argument sound bite, a line or two. Whether its 40 years ago or today regardless of where it is for anyone to prey upon a 14yearold child is just immoral. Regardless of circumstance or situation. Bob, howell, sheltby and ann, thank you. We have exclusive reporting on the russia probe. A focus on when trump learned Michael Flynn committed a fel y felony. Could steve bannon be a witness. Women accusing of donald trump of Sexual Misconduct and call for justice. Nobody dreams of being ogled when youre a little girl wanting to wear a crown. He kissed me on the lips. Im ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. Its the Phillips Lady anyone ever have occasional constipation,diarrhea, gas or bloating . She does. She does. Help defend against those digestive issues. Take Phillips Colon Health probiotic caps daily with three types of good bacteria. 400 likes . Wow try Phillips Colon Health. hard exhalation honey . Can we do this tomorrow . grunts of effort can we do this tomorrow . If you have Heart Failure symptoms, your risk of hospitalization could increase, making tomorrow uncertain. But entresto is a medicine that was proven, in the largest Heart Failure study ever, to help more people stay alive and out of the hospital than a leading Heart Failure medicine. Women who are pregnant must not take entresto. It can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. Dont take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren. If youve had angioedema while taking an ace or arb medicine, dont take entresto. The most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high potassium in your blood. Tomorrow, tomorrow. When can we do this again, grandpa . Well, how about tomorrow . Ask your doctor about entresto and help make tomorrow possible. Another important story were following. Special counsel bob mueller wants to know when donald trump first learned mike flynn lied to the fbi which turned out to be a felony. Nbc news reporting mueller is asking people to piece together what happened in the crucial 18 days. It started january 26th. White House Counsel don mcgahn warned flynn was open to blackmail by russia. What did you tell the white house . So i told them again there were a number of press accounts, statements that have been made by the Vice President and other high ranking white house officials about general flynns conduct that we knew to be untrue. We also told the white House Counsel that general flynn had been interviewed by the fbi, mr. Mcgahn asked how he did. I declined to give an answer. He asked me whether or not general flynn should be fired and told him that really wasnt our call. That was up to them but that we were giving them this information so that they could take action. So they could take action. Thats very important. That testimony there from then acting attorney general sally yates about something we know did not happen for another 17 days. Now, thats not automatically bad. Not automatic evidence of a crime but what were learn something a question about what trump was waiting for. Now, he was also asked about russia during that key period before flynn was ousted. Do you respect putin . I do respect him. Do you . Why . Well, i respect a lot of people but that doesnt mean im going to get along with them. Hes a leader of his country. I say its better to get along with russia than not. Putin is a killer. A lot of killers. We got a lot of killers. You think our country is so innocent. What do you make of reports that general flynn had a conversation with russians about sanctions before you were i dont know about it. I havent seen it. What report is that . Reporting that he talked to the ambassador of russia before you were inaugurated without sanctions im joined by paul butler and cynthia oxny. Starting with you could make the counterargument you got this information, you processed it and you came to a decision. Why is this of as we would put it investigative interest . Well, its an investigative interest because good prosecutors are going in there and interviewing the witnesses and one thing we know about good prosecutors theyre smart, theyre very well informed before they go in and theyre curious and these prosecutors have already interviewed Michael Flynn. They may know the answers already. In fact, i would guess they probably do. So when theyre going in and asking white house people about did this happen on this day or did this happen on that day . They know the answer. What theyre trying to find out who is a truth teller and who is not. What youre saying, when you hear these news headlines, mueller asking about x thats not like when random people ask, oh, you know, what are you up to today or where did have you dinner last night . They know where you had dinner and theyre checking whether youre lying. The other thing thats important to think about as you analyze this 18day report which is obviously very important is that dont assume that mueller thinks trump had to find out in those 18 days. Thats not necessarily true. He may well have found out right after flynn spoke to the fbi. Just because theyre asking that question doesnt mean thats what they think actually happened. Right, exactly. Paul butler, take a listen to this. Its become a part of the canon if you will. Its become a classic hit if you will. Usually for that moment about russia, this was another part of the interview where lester holts a colleague so i respect him a lot but i think he nailed the questioning because it wasnt just that he got that russia answer, he also got this key answer about this now crucial time lag. The white house was notified that flynn was at risk of compromise and blackmail. My question is, why allow someone in a very sensitive job to stay on for 18 days ill tell you why. For something that happened six months ago. Because my white House Counsel don mcgahn came back to me and it did not sound like an emergency. Didnt sound like she didnt make it sound that way either in the hearings. We fired him because he said something to the Vice President that was not so. Did you know that he had had that he received payments from the russian government no. That he received payments from the turn oishkish governme that might be the last time he does an interview like that. Oh, well, the reason i have it here, i didnt act because it didnt sound like an emergency. But then later he acted. Sally yates goes to the white House Counsel and says, just so you know, the National Security adviser is dirty, hes lying about his contacts with russians, hes lied to the Vice President and now hes sworn in and when she testified on capitol hill that she didnt have any recommendation, its because to any lawyer it would be obvious. You go to the National Security director, Michael Flynn. You ask, did you lie, did you lie to the Vice President , did you lie to the fbi . And you fire him when you learn that he did lie and instead the president not only hangs onto him for as long as he can, he intervenes on his behalf to get mueller to call off the investigation and what does he do about sally yates. He fires her. He fired her for allegedly a different reason. Thats what he said but he has all kinds of reasons. He originally fired mueller for one reason reasons on reasons on reasons. Paul butler, say with me. Cynthia, thank you. The three women that accuse donald trump speaking out today and they Want Congress to interveer. A former Trump Campaign adviser being called a coffee boy. New reports suggest he had for power. Nick was born to move. 3 toddlers wont stop him. And neither will lower back pain. Because at a dr. Scholls kiosk he got a recommendation for our custom fit orthotic to relieve his foot, knee, or lower back pain, from being on his feet. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. When you have a cold, stuff happens. { sneezing ] shut down cold symptoms fast [ coughing ] with maximum strength alka seltzer plus liquid gels. Donald trump apologized one time during the entire president ial campaign for bragging about groping women in that access Hollywood Tape but when women came forward accusing him of doing what he said he did on the tape, trump denied it. The president has addressed these accusations directly and denied all of these allegations and this took place long before he was elected to be president. The white house addressing the allegations because the accusers were out in force. Samantha holvey, Rachel Crooks and Jessica Leeds going on the today show. He comes in like he owns the place and like he owns you and is just looking at us, eyeing up and down. Nobody dreams of beingi ogled when youre a little girl wanting to wear a crown. All of a sudden hes all over me kissing and groping and groping and kissing. When his hands went up my skirt im not a small person. I managed to wiggle out. He kissed me on the lips and i was shocked. Yeah, i mean devastated. I didnt it happened so fast, i guess, and i didnt really i wish i would have been courageous enough to be like whats going on and you need to stop this. Todays accounts come during a period of reckoning for harassment allegations. Members of congress have resigned and mounting calls for trump to resign including from krist Kristen Gillibrand and calls for a new government investigation of his conduct. 19 women have accused donald trump of inappropriate conduct. He denies it but with more women feeling empowering to weigh in denials arent the end of the story. Oprah is predicting what would come after the Harvey Weinstein broke as a watershed moment. In order to keep my job, in order to keep my position, in order to keep moving forward ive got to smile and look the other way and got to pretend he didnt say that and pretend he didnt touch me. I think those days are about to be over. About to be over. Im joined by Eleanor Holmes norton from washington, d. C. In october she introduced legislation would offer more workplace protections from harassment. Congresswoman, is this call for a governmental investigation of Donald Trumps conduct before he entered the white house the most important next step or what are you advocating . Well, it is the most important next step but the Republican Party is split and they ole tcontrol the congress. The democrats ought to have a round table of their own if republicans wont do some kind of a congressional hearing so these women can be heard. Remember, ari, these women were not heard. We had the president as you said essentially admitting and apologizing but never heard from a single woman. Now when women see women coming forward they say its time for us to come forward too. Women are getting their strength in numbers. Women and women alone are forcing this change in climate. This change in culture. Congresswoman, i want to play for you something the president and ambassador said and bring in my colleague, Stefanie Ruhl and take a listen about believing or listening to women. They should be heard and they should be dealt with and i think we heard from them prior to the election and i think any woman who has felt violated or felt mistreated in any way, they have every right to speak up. Congresswoman and then stephanie, your response to that and how important is that . The ambassador spoke spontaneously as a woman. She didnt get to talking points and she couldnt bring herself to be an apologist for the president on this score. Remember, she had just finished in fact representing him on his issues, but representing him on this was a bit too far for her and i congratulate her. She also said something very brave there thats important because right now, we like to look at this as a black and white issue across the board. Not just President Trump but sexual harassment, session wall assault and when you say you dont believe the accusers, people are up in arms. She said something important. She said we need to listen to everyone and thats whats very important here. Every person who feels violated, every accuser out there does have a right and should have a platform to have their voice heard. Now, it doesnt mean that theyre 100 telling the truth. That gets people angry. You dont believe the accusers. Thats not what anyone is saying but people should feel safe, should feel like theyre not going to be retaliated against. If they do speak up, it is rich for the white house to say, Kellyanne Conway and sarah sanders, President Trump has denied these accusations, this has been litigated. Youre a lawyer, not me. Nothing has been litigated. This information was out there before the election and people did vote for President Trump. That doesnt mean that anything has been litigated and with regard to the women who came forward again today to tell their story, it was important because we heard in that vice news piece one of roy moores supporters saying, well, after he wins, you know, hes going to be right just like President Trump was right and all those women were liars and we learned that. We didnt learn that President Trumps accusers were liars and, remember, the billy bush tape that the congresswoman was referencing, those are President Trumps words. I move on her like a bitch. You can do what you want when youre a star and billy bush came out we havent heard from him in 14 months and said those absolutely were President Trumps words. Dont forget he told howard stern about being backstage at a teen pageant. I just go backstage. Its what you can do when you own it. Beautiful women with no clothes on. Im known for that. Thats the president s words. Those are inappropriate action that is a man in a position of power did then and is reminded of it now. Unless there is an action step, if there is an investigation, if you think that suddenly President Trump is going to do the right thing here or Sarah Huckabee sanders is going to Say Something different, well, then youre mistaken. Theyre not going to do anything different and stick on script. Congresswoman, final word to stephanies practical point that theres not an expectation of government response here. There is not an expectation but there will be government response. This notion about denials. Look at the change that women have forced. These are uncorroborated and unwitnessed attacks or moving in on women. So, why are women believed . In part they dont know each other but the denials dont work anymore, ari. It is true you have outliers like trump and like roy moore, but look how many men have fessed up, even though nobody could have proved it on them any more than they can, quote, prove it on the president. Women are forcing a change in mens attitudes, even getting them to confess which is something i thought i would never see. Congresswoman, Eleanor Holmes norton, thanks and to stephanie, you can catch weekdays and saturdays at 12 30. Coming up bob mueller interviewing people who are the whos who on the trump insider list. Why not steve bannon . Copd makes it hard to breathe. So to breathe better, i go with anoro. Go your own way copd tries to say, go this way. I say, ill go my own way with anoro. Go your own way oncedaily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators, that Work Together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. Anoro is not for asthma. It contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. 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Politico reporting people close to the probe believe he will be a key witness for prosecutors but says allegedly he hasnt been interviewed by mueller and told people he doesnt even have a lawyer and isnt worried about any potential exposure which itself is an interesting thing to convey. Bannon had rules on the Trump Campaign and in the white house and be in a position to know all kinds of things about the campaign, about russia, about sanctions and since bannons last day in the white house we have heard a lot of talk about whether he might ever even turn on trump but despite any differences on primary campaign, bannon doesnt criticize the president on just about anything except the firing of james comey. Someone said you described the firing of james comey. Youre a student of history. As the biggest mistake in political history. That would be probably that probably would be too bombastic for me but maybe modern political history. Thats what he says on national tv. Imagine what hed say in a private interview. I have my guests here and, brian, do you buy bannons positive vibes on this or do you not want to be the last guy into the Interview Room . Well, look, spoiler alert, ari. There is no indication steve bannon has done anything wrong. Sure. But lets face it. For bob mueller to conduct a fair, full and complete investigation without talking to this guy is like doing hamlet without hamlet. I mean this, is the guy, this is the president s bench coach. This is the president s counsel and guy in the oval office on air force one, in maralago thats about been privy to some of the most important conversations i believe that shape and drive bob muellers investigation, of course, hes going to want to talk to him and talk to him pretty soon. Yeah, and the hamlet, of course, raises the issue of all the dead mark sanctions in that play, just a sanctions joke there, brian. Yeah, nothing. Look. Nothing. No response. Heidi, never mind the hamlet joke. Your thoughts, though, on the steve bannon issue. Of course, hell be in the mix. Hes in the room but he clearly as a smart guy has put up a very public wall around the comey firing. What does that tell you . Its odd that he hasnt received more scrutiny at least by the media but for the first thing it tells me this investigation is nobody near finished that mueller is working his way up the ladder to the innermost circle and saw hope hicks who is also one of his closest confidantes interviewed. If bannon did nothing himself its odd he would not get a lawyer. What were seeing there could be tangential charges for those who witnessed things. Like your previous guest said he was witness to a lot starting with the firing of comey. Yeah, heidi, play that out. Bannons public theory here seems to be that maybe the only issue left is obstruction and he has waged his public defense. Not only was he not involved. Hes laid out methodically he thought it was literally the worst thing ever. What does that tell us . Well, politically hes taking a lot of shots at mueller and its kind of brazen, right, if you actually did believe that you could be strung up for something. We dont know that he actually hasnt consulted a lawyer or he wont eventually get a lawyer if he hasnt been contacted at this point. He certainly will. And its not just for the comey firing. Theres so much more here he was witness to, for example, the maralago phone call from Michael Flynn where they strategized about the sanctions. He had direct contact with George Papadopoulos too who is becoming a key figure in this investigation, were now learning, no, he wasnt just a coffee boy and also has what we know from his financial stake in cambridge analytical, that group trying to coordinate with wikileaks, bannon is the one who made that tried to make that connection to the Trump Campaign and cambridge analytical. It was, oh, i tried to team up with assange and as heidi so well remember, it was something hes on the board of. Yeah, and whats important about steve bannon, ari, is that he provides three things when he is ultimately called in to talk to bob mueller and his a list of lawyers. Context, content and corroborate race. What was said whether its in relation to the comey firing or any other investigation that mueller may be pursuing. But also how was it said . What was the context then more importantly in my estimation, does bannon corroborate anything or everything that Michael Flynn or anybody else whos been called in to talk to the mueller team have to say . Thats why bob mueller is constructing this investigation from the bottom up. And, you know, obviously at this point you bring in your lesser ones early on and then only then do you bring in somebody like steve bannon. Yeah. Lets hear it. What was it . No, you want to bring in your heavy hitters later on down the line. Spielberg said, you may remember, you cant do hamlet without hamlet. I think he said that. He may have said. That heidi, thank you for putting up with brian and i. Some days are harder than others. Up next i will talk to the former trump aide who called one of his colleagues a coffee blow after an indictment. New reports that might throw that description into question. Nick was born to move. 3 toddlers wont stop him. And neither will lower back pain. Because at a dr. Scholls kiosk he got a recommendation for our custom fit orthotic to relieve his foot, knee, or lower back pain, from being on his feet. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. If yorheumatoid arthritisevere and youre talking to your rheumatologist about a medication, this is humira. This is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further irreversible damage. This is humira helping me reach for more. Humira has been clinically studied for over 20 years. Humira works for many adults. 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If he was going to wear a wire, all we know now is whether he prefers a carmel macchiato over a regular american coffee. There is more to the story. The Washington Post reporting papadopoulos did have the ability to convince some foreign officials and he was allegedly a highranking President Trump staffer that could arrange meetings with foreign minister, president and a former prime minister, which is an impressive macchiato. That schedule in line with what papadopouloss fiancee says about some of his time working with the campaign. There are consistent evidence that he was not a coffee boy. Was he in touch with the chief strategist steve bannon . Yes. As far as i know, yes. Bannon, Michael Flynn. He was in touch with Michael Flynn . General flynn . Yes, as far as i know, absolutely, yes. He never took any initiative without the blessing of the campaign. Im joined by Michael Caputo as well as former federal prosecutor paul butler. Michael, you have to admit there was nor than just coffee orders being discussed. I might have exaggerated papadopouloss role when i called him a coffee boy. He wasnt really at the level of the Campaign Staff where we would have trusted him with the coffee machine. This guy is zelig, ari. He is a character that haplessly pops up across the different scenes of this campaign. The meetings in greece were not authorized by the campaign. He put them together himself. He leveraged this nonexistent position volunteer, low level position with the campaign to try to advance his own personal interests. I stand by what i said. Was he then, though, as you just put it, a coffee boy, or was he a Campaign Adviser who went rogue and started meeting with foreign officials . Well, i think we understand now that papadopoulos came to the campaign via dr. Ben carsons campaign who found him because he inmailed them on linkedin without being invited. And they for some reason quickly hired him as an adviser based on a falsified resume. And when some of the ben carsons advisers came to the Trump Campaign after the doctor dropped out of the race, they then brought in a couple of their guys including carter page and papadopoulos. He had no business advising a president ial campaign. At the time, our campaign was desperate for Foreign Policy advisers. We were getting hit on constantly by our republican counterparts in the primary for not having any. He wasnt the right guy to bring in. It was a mistake to bring him in. And were paying for it even today. Paul butler . So here is what is not credible about what mr. Caputo just said. When there is a new president elect in d. C. , there is a feeding frenzy for access. George papadopoulos literally had a seat at the table. We just saw a photo. The president said he is one of his top five advisers for Foreign Policy. Thats not what the president said. Well, he listed him to the Washington Post as one of his top five advisers. That he did say. So thats the kind of access that a coffee boy would not have. And then the question is why is the president and why are you contributing to this false narrative . Why not just tell the truth if the truth is that he went rogue. Youre creating the false negative right now. Youre repeating the false negative. The truth is papadopoulos was not a Senior Adviser in the campaign. He did very little, if anything. And he traveled around the world dining out on his new Business Card and picking up women. Thats what he did. As we know from the Washington Post report, i read the same story. And i think the post report confirms that this guy was nothing in the campaign. And we see at the end of the Washington Post story that he is devolving into nothingness. He is zelig. He is a hapless, unimportant character. Let me get paul a brief response. I got one more question. Zelig is singing like a canary to robert mueller. He has pleaded guilty to one count and he is cooperating. So i think well find out just how low level, what a low level coffee boy does in the trump administration. I dont know that the word coffee boy has ever been said this many times in a single segment. But we break all kinds of barriers here. The over thing i got to ask you, we were discussing earlier Steve Bannons decision to fire james comey. You are someone who wants Donald Trumps presidency to succeed. What do you think is the biggest mistake he has made in this russia probe . Well, i think james comey should have been fired on january 21st, probably to the great fanfare of democrats across the board. I think he waited too long to fire comey. And in the end, it may end up being the biggest problem that was created by the white house. I think it was the biggest mistake by far. Its put a lot of people in danger, including the president himself. But i think were all going to get through this. I think comey should have been fired, but january 21st. And final question, michael. What do you order at starbucks . [ laughter ] i drink tea. Hey, all right. Not bad. Paul butler, Michael Caputo by the way, by the way, in this hamlet kind of running joke, steve bannon would have been polonius. Boom, boom right . Im not sure i earlier work in shakespeare went over well. Well always like to hear all sides and we appreciate your time. Thank you both. Ahead, this has been under the radar. Someone Jared Kushner hired during the campaign will testify. Thats up next. more people shop online for the holidays than ever before. clapping and the United States Postal Service delivers more of those purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. because we know, even the smallest things are sometimes the biggest. Even the smallest things anyone ever have occasional y constipation,diarrhea, gas or bloating . She does. She does. Help defend against those digestive issues. Take Phillips Colon Health probiotic caps daily with three types of good bacteria. 400 likes . Wow try Phillips Colon Health. The moment a fish is pulled out from the water, its a race against time. And keeping it in the right conditions is the best way to get that fish to your plate safely. Sometimes the product arrives and the cold chain has been interrupted, and we need to be able to identify where in the cold chain that occurred. We took our world Class Network and we developed devices to track environmental conditions. This device allows people to understand whats happening with the location, but also if its too hot, if its too cold, if its been dropped. Its completely unique. If you have a sensor that can keep track of your product, it keeps everybody kind of honest that way. Who knew a tiny sensor could help keep the food chain safe . Its been a busy news monday. Here is another story breaking today. A private eye pleading guilty to trying to steal trumps tax returns. Prosecutors say he tried to do it burying the election. Tomorrow the alabama special election arrives and well be covering that. Later this week, a preview. On thursday, alexander nicks, he is going to testify before house intel. Well be covering that on the beat. And friday, eminem not testifying in the russia probe, but he has been getting political and his new album revival drops. Watch us at 6 00 p. M. Eastern or facebook. That is our show. Hardball starts now. 18 days. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. In an exclusive report today, nbc news has revealed new details about the direction of special counsel muellers russia probe. An investigation that could reach the president himself. According to people familiar with the matter, special Counsel Robert Mueller is trying to piece together what happened inside the white house over a critical 18day period that began