Another hour but were out of time. My thanks to steve schmidt, most of all, thanks to you for watching. Mtp daily with chuck todd starts right now. Welcome to thursday. It is meet the press daily. Good evening. Im chuck todd here in a big curly w washington. Lchl exactly a year after the president ial election, todays been another hectic day in the Nations Capital from capitol hill to the courts to the white house. House backed an Impeachment Inquiry into the president and historic symbolic action that moves us one step closer to public hearings. And Behind Closed Doors, it was another bomb shell day as the National Security council top russia expert tim morrison
confirmed much of the substance of the damning testimony by the administrations top diplomat to ukraine, bill taylor, what he testified to is that military aid was contingent on investigations into the president s political rivals. This is according to a review of morrisons opening statement. Now, morrison also testified that he was warned about Rudy Giuliani and Eu Ambassador Gordon Sondlands efforts to get ukraines president to open investigations into Hunter Bidens company burisma. Not his company. The company that he was on the board of. In addition to those developments, we have proceedings in two potentially gamechanging court cases today that could determine whether deputy National Security advisor Charles Kupperman and former White House Counsel Don Mcgahn will be forced to testify under subpoena before congress. And what happens in kuppermans hearing could have big implications on whether the former National Security advisor john bolton ends up testifying under subpoena before congress, as well. Because kupperman shares an attorney with bolton and bolton has been invited into the Impeachment Inquiry next week and he has simply said he is not going to come voluntarily. He wants the subpoena. Well get to all that in a moment. All of this is happening after the house took its first vote on impeachment proceeds approving a resolution to guide the next steps of the process. But vote fell very much along party lines. Two democrats broke with their party. One republican had already broken with his party to the point where he left the party. Justin amash voted with the democrats. Okay. Thats the definition, folks, of party line. Legally, Doesnt Change much of anything. But symbolically, lawmakers are drawing their lines in the sand and at least for now, todays vote makes clear that washington is still extraordinarily divided on this issue. And that republicent and democrats are retreating to their corners. A Reporting Team has been all over the action today. Garrett haake is on the hill. Kelly odonnell at the white house. Lets start on the hill where we
have Testimony Taking place with mr. Morrison there. So, garrett, weve learned a little something. But its interesting, some of the republicans in there have come out and they believe mr. Morrison has been helpful to the president. Yeah, thats true. Chuck, it feels like that was about six weeks ago theres been so much going on capitol hill today. Morrisons testimony, as you pointed out in the open, was largely confirmtory for what bill taylor has said about the arm or the aid for investigations part of this. But What Morrison also told the committees was that he listened to that phone call and he didnt hear anything that he thought was illegal. Now, of course, thats not the bar for impeachment but it is something that republicans can hang their hats on here a little bit. And morrison also described based on the reporting of my colleague leanne caldwell, whos done such a good job with this story, not really following the burisma connection as it was happening in real time. He really underscores the two parallel tracks of foreign
policy that were going on within the white house. The official Foreign Policy of the u. S. Government of which he was a member. And the secondary Foreign Policy of Rudy Giuliani and perhaps the president that he was not privy to at the time. And was putting together later. It also speaks to how this Impeachment Inquiry is just going to build and build and build. The vote today is such a key part of it. Setting up public hearings. Weve got another full week of depositions at least for next week. Just the ones youve laid out with bolton scheduled to come if he does show up on next thursday. So all of that will continue as these members are now on their way back to their districts tonight where they will have to continue to sell this. Democratic members, in particular, having to continue to sell this back in their districts as something that the country needs to go through. I want to i want to pick up on that for a second. I the the thing that has surprised me the most about todays vote was how Neither Party really wanted to have there werent many Rank And File members that wanted to go to the
floor to make the case for why they were voting the way they were voting. It was almost they all hid behind their leadership on that. Yeah. Thats true. You know, leadership in the democratic side painted this as something that they were forced to do by this president. And if you think about it, nancy pelosi has been resisting the idea of trying to impeach this president for the entirety of his term in office. And so this democrats cast this as something that was forced upon them by history. That the president has brought them to this point and they had to make this vote. So for democratic members not to be rushing out to scream about how excited they were to be voting to impeach the president makes sense on that strategically. On the republican side, you saw some of the same. This desire to defend the president within a relatively narrow framework. But i think there is also some concern on the republican side that as you start to defend the president , you dont know where this is going, right . So much of the defense has been built on process up till this point. Okay. Now, were making adjustments to the process. We heard a little bit of that today with the language republicans have been using for a while but it seemed to be turned up in bits today about this is trying to invalidate the 2016 election. The degree which republicans can link this Impeachment Inquiry to opposition of the president going back years, i think youll hear the names al green. That argument can make this feel distasteful for independent mind voters, democrats who are not sure about this. And i suspect well hear a lot more of that Going Forward from republicans. Right. Dont look at the substance. Try to blur the lines with with its just one big effort to get rid of this president. Yep. The big blob on that front. I get that. Kelly odonnell. The white house today, i think they were hoping for more democratic defections. They didnt get it. This basically was the Party Line Vote. Republicans lost one. Democrats lost two. Thats not you dont get Bragging Rights on either side
for something on that one. And more importantly, it means the president s on the road to impeachment, which we know the white house isnt happy about. So i assume theyre happy they didnt lose anybody besides amash but what can you tell us . Well, there is a new development in just the last couple of moments and that is our colleague Pete Williams reports that a decision on whether Charles Kupperman will have to testify, again, he is the deputy to john bolton when they were here serving the president in the National Security space. That wont come for at least a month. So that is according to peach reporting that there will be another hearing in december. So if we were expecting to have some quick resolution on some of the most highprofile names, we wont be getting it. Let me ask you. Kelly, let me pause you there. Is the white house happy to have this stuff dragged out . Or do they want to see this stuff resolved so they know what theyre dealing with . In a larger way, they have been really arguing on their
actions for dragging it out. In part, because the closer it gets to what is exactly the Election Year 2020, the easier it is to fashion this as being purely political instead of an inherently political process because impeachment is, by definition, a political solution to a problem. And that is, in part, what the white house has expected. That the longer this drags out, much like in the russia investigation, as much as the president and his team were battered and bruised by that, they came out of it. And in many respects, they believe that there is a Fatigue Factor for impeachment and well have to see. Would they like to have some clarity on who will be required to testify when youre talking about someone like don mcgahn who had been the president s white House Counsel . Im sure theres some anxiety to get a resolution on that. But the courts are in a separate track here and so thats going to take a little more time. But the president does have some ability to use his influence and
his relationships on republican members. So he was quick today to say there were no defections among the republican side. They had known justin amash had left the party earlier so they were looking at the broader piece of that. Might they have thought there would be in those trump districts where democrats prevailed in 2018, that there might have been more peeling away . Certainly, they would have liked that. Before this moment, the president can only do so much. And working the phones and building relationships and offering his help in districts where he can be helpful, thats what he can use at this point to try to keep republicans in line. Garrett haake, Kelly Odonnell kicking us off with todays news events of the day. Obviously, the single most important thing that happened today is the World Series Championship Washington Nationals. Im going to get that in there anytime i can. Kelly, i think its impressive you decided to be a red head for the nationals. I really appreciate that. I know garretts from texas. Yeah, both of you. Thats right. Thank you, both. All right. Joining me now, two people who know a lot about both sides of this story from the legal perspective, as well as the National Security perspective. Ned price, msnbc contributor, former National Security council spokesman. Frankly, if he were there now, hed probably be subpoenaed. Glad im not. Chuck rosenberg, msnbc contributor. Former u. S. Attorney. Former fbi official and who knows you would be in the middle of either subpoenaing people or not if you were in the middle of it. Subpoena him. The host of the oath podcast where he talks with former Public Officials about this Pivotal Moment in American History. All right. I want to start with this issue of kupperman. And this is a classic separation of powers question. You could be arguing the governments side of this or you can argue congresss side of this. What do you think is the white houses strongest argument from
preventing . First of all, im glad you framed it as a separation of powers issue. Its not a republican democrat thing. Its the legislative and Executive Branch and the parties could have been flipped and in the exact same position. So i dont blame mr. Kupperman or his lawyer for asking the courts to resolve it. I mean, the lawyer has said that kupperman, the deputy National Security advisor, is indifferent. Whatever the court tells him he must do, he will do. And thats frankly an incredibly logical position. So whats the white houses best argument . I think they have a reasonable argument, although its fact dependent on Executive Privilege. Its a real thing. President s from all parties and all administrations have asserted it in one form or the other. I think the notion that they have absolute immunity, meaning that the witness doesnt even have to show up scalpel. You need a legal scalpel here. Its like, okay, you can get Executive Privilege for here and
well carve out the territory, you know, rather than, you know, rather than just saying yes or no. I think thats probably where the court comes out that they say that absolute immunity is a made up thing. That a witness has to show up and that when the witness shows up, he or she can assert privilege on certain questions and certain responses. Privilege is normally construed narrowly because the idea is you want the fact finder. Whether its the congress or the court or a jury to get as much information as possible. So this notion that i dont even have to go, that i dont have to show up in this body that wants my testimony, i dont think that flies, chuck. Ned, first of all, did you guys ever get legal briefings when you were at nsc about what would fall under sort of Executive Privilege . What would what would be your legal requirement . Im just curious, like, how are you how are National Security Council Staffers briefed on their legal requirements . We certainly had ethics briefings and i think some
people might say too often but for a very good reason. When you serve in the white house and serve at that level of influence within our national politics, its probably for the best. Now, frankly, these issues of separation of powers and privilege, Executive Privilege and absolute immunity, this wasnt something that i became familiar with until the trump administration. Frankly, because the obama administration, i am pleased to say, was scandal free. It is not like my colleagues were routinely dragged to congressional hearings to testify Behind Closed Doors or dragged before courts. Because this really is a creation of this administration. Sure but there were some things, for instance, benghazi, i think they wanted to get some folks on the National Security council to testify and you guys said no. Of course. Of course. But its not like this was the this was the substance of our day. My point on that is it did fall under some Executive Privilege. Even absolute immunity is something previous
administrations have claimed. Its not the currency. It is not the currency that it is in this administration that everything seems to revolve around scandals. All right. So much has happened today that we sort of got lost. There was a pretty interesting important story this morning in the Washington Post about about the idea that the transcript of the call that Lieutenant Colonel vindman was so concerned about it when he went to the mr. Eisenburg. First of all, tell us about the other server. How often did you interact . I had no contact with the server and thats the acronym for the intelligence server. Only those people in a directorate called the directorate for intelligence programs within the National Security council have access to that server. They are the ones who ever access to it. They are the ones who oversee it. Even when the National Security advisor or even perhaps the president of the United States wanted to access a document from that server, they tended to be the ones who would print it off, take it to the oval office, take
it to the National Security advisors office. What do you make of that story . The the house intel is going to want to hear from mr. Eisenbur. And im sitting here wondering how are they ever going to hear from him . Hes counsel. Not the definition of at least some form of Attorney Client privilege with the Executive Branch here. Well, first of all, his client is not the president. Yeah, who is the client here . For a white House Counsel or deputy white House Counsel, the client is the office of the presidency, the institution as opposed to the individual. And that sounds like a distinction not only a lawyer could love but its a really important distinction. You know its one that this president doesnt understand. He doesnt does think his white House Counsel is his lawyer. Its an important distinction. Will they hear from him . I dont know. I mean, there are always exceptions to privileges. If you commit a fraud, if you commit a crime, you cant behhi
behind a privilege. Privilege can be destroyed. Taken away. Do you think then his rationale for this is something he should have to testify to . Well, so i would like to hear from him. One of the things were always trying to assess as federal prosecutors well, two things. Motive and intent. Theyre different. Motive is why you did something and i dont have to prove motive. Intent is whether or not you did that thing on purpose and i always have to prove that as a prosecutor. And i would love to hear his motive and intent and was it perhaps nefarious . I dont know. Was he doing it at the behest of some other person . Did he think there was legitimate reason to take this document and put it into a more secure place . These are all possibilities. And i have a theory but my theory doesnt matter. What matters is hearing from the witness as to motive and intent. What do you remember about phone calls . When you guys handled them with Leader Phone Calls and how often would you see them . I would see transcripts or reconstructed transcripts i shall say of just about every phone call. Phone calls took great preparation. Great work and thought would go into this. Its something that a package would go up to the president a day or so before his phone call. It would have talking points. It would have background. It would have everything he would need. Typically, these would also be done in the oval office with senior aides sitting next to him. They could pass notes back and forth if they had to. And the process in the Situation Room isnt all that different from what weve heard in this case. You would have a Transcriber Working in the Situation Room. You would then have directors in the National Security Council Staff who would go through it not just change the substance but to make sure specific technical terms like burisma wasnt missed. I saw they were using some sort of software. Very quickly, as an attorney, as your prosecutor, youve seen these Opening Statements at least, right . We dont know im talking about these Opening Statements of the current investigation. Thats the one these are facts we can confirm. Everything else is still sources say. Looks like to me might have enough to indict. Like, they want to keep getting information but if you get enough to issue an indictment and you still want to get more information, when do you when do you issue that indictment . And do you still go get more information . Like, what is your line of, okay, ive got enough . Well, so, theres no such thing as too much evidence when youre a federal prosecutor. You always want more. There is a law of diminishing margin returns. If you take too long to acquire evidence, right, then youre spending 95 of your time on the last 5 of the stuff. The blue shirt or orange shirt, right . Yeah. At some point, it no longer makes sense. What theyre doing now makes sense, chuck. They are talking to lots of witnesses to see if stories are consistent. Not perfectly consistent because that would raise other concerns, as in people aligning their stories. But consistent enough to know that you are at the truth. So right now, you dont think theyve overdone it yet. Doesnt appear to me, no. Chuck rosenberg, ed price. Thank you both. Joining me now is somebody whos been in the room for a lot of these depositions, including
today. Its new York Democratic congressman greg meek. Hes part of one of the three committees currently responsible for this inquiry. Thanks for coming in. We were talking about the deposition of mr. Morrison. Weve seen the reports. Weve seen hes confirmed largely mr. Taylors accounts there. What more can you tell us about mr. Morrison . Has he been a has he been a a a cooperative witness . Yeah. I think that what you said and basically what i can drive eriv he has been a cooperating witness. Were trying to see in drive for the truth and he has basically corroborated what ambassador taylor has indicated. Just as it seems as though there was a question initially about the whistleblower, what he said. But most of the witnesses, just about all, have come in and been and have corroborated
what the whistleblower said, what ambassador taylor has said. And what the president has said, too. So it seems to be cooperation throughout. Thats why i think it s good t be where we are now. Well, what is this some point . And when do you think youve had enough evidence to start presenting what you have found to the public . Well, i think that thats what the vote was about today. Setting what those rules are. And soon, there will be public hearings. I heard, you know, part of your conversation. And i think that when you are a prosecut prosecutor and you go into the grand jury proceeding, you dont Wash Something through. You try to make sure you get all the evidence and you understand all the potential counts that might be in an indictment. So you dont want to go ahead and say, oh i got this and you indict and then you find out evidence later on. Then you got to go back and redo
the process. You want to be as inclusive as you can. And thats what were doing. You know, this is a very i know its political but its a very liberative process and its something that i think nancy pelosi was right that no member of congress wanted to do or thought they would have to do when they were elected. So were trying to dot is and cross ts here and present it to the American People and take the facts we found from this proceeding to the judiciary so we can see whether articles of impeachment should be brought. Right. But i i we cant we cant pretend that 2020s not around the corner. At what point where are you on that question . Right . Which is at what point does it start to get too close to the election where this becomes a harder a harder thing to explain to the American Public . Well, look, i dont think even now what were trying to do and what i think is clear how the president abused his power. How the president threatened and
hurt the National Security of the United States of america by withholding money to an ally. That becomes clear in how the president was trying to get a Foreign Government involved in our politics. That has come out of the president s mouth. Now, youve got to corroborate it because youve got to prove it. We still, you know, trying the senate is a jury. I know some say its going to be difficult to get 20 senators. Im reminded of it was a late breaking thing with Richard Nixon when everybody was somewhere but once all the evidence had gotten out, had they tried to impeach Richard Nixon or talked about it when initially they were doing their investigatory stages, no one was there. But once the evidence was done, well see. I think itll be done in a timely fashion but an appropriate fashion and a deliberate fashion. Well, speaking of timing, we just learned a few minutes ago that the that a hearing is not going to be scheduled until December 10th to find out if mr. Kupperman, whos who has asked the courts to decide whether he can legally appear before you, you know, what what what does he fall under . The congressional subpoena . Executive privilege . Things like that. This will impact john boltons potential testimony. December 10th is a long way away. Thats more than a month away. How much does a delay in getting to kupperman, getting to bolton, how much does that delay the larger process here . Well, i mean, these are substantial witnesses and that is something that is actually out of our control in the sense that the courts want to rule. Look, we want as many people to come in to testify, whether theyre part of the administration or not. I think that from witnesses that i saw, i want the public to be able to judge the the voracity of the people that have testified. Ive heard some of my colleagues on The Other Side go after them. I want them to see the Public Servants that have come before us and they can make that judgment for themselves. The president has said they wanted to be able to call his own witnesses. He seems to be the only one hiding behind Executive Privileges that want to prevent witnesses from testifying. So it seems to me you cant have it both ways. We are ready to hear them if they would come forward right now. If the president would stop trying to get them to hide behind Executive Privilege, we can do it in a much more timely fashion. So that question i think would be more appropriately asked to the president , why doesnt he let the people come testify . Final question is, obviously, you know republicans on The Other Side of the aisle, theyre hitting you on the process of this. How this is being conducted. Are you sensitive to the fact that that you cant let these hearings become a spectacle . And, you know, you may have folks on The Other Side who are trying to bait many members of congress to make this a spectacle. How do you prevent that . I think that Speaker Pelosi and i think that what weve been doing at least in hearings that weve had thus far, adam schiff, Chairman Schiff has been very,
very professional about it. And i would hope that our republican colleagues would do the same. Not play the kind of antics that theyve done downstairs and the American Public then will be able to see the antics that they did. When i hear such comments that, you know, republicans dont get a chance to ask questions and things of that nature, they do. And the public will get a chance to see that. So we will do whats on our part. I mean, this is we understand that the camera of history is rolling and we are being called upon it. And we are going to be very thoughtful about how we conduct and continue to move forward in regards to this Impeachment Inquiry. I like that praise. The camera of history is rolling. Should be a catch phrase for those of us in television news. Congressman greg meeks democrat from new york. Thanks for coming on and sharing your views. Much appreciate it. Thank you fosh having me. After the break, weve got more on what is will be seen as a historic day in capitol hill. Plus, the view from The Other Side of the aisle. Talk to another member who was in the room today as another key witness told his story. Today asy witness told his story but were also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. From the day youre born we never stop taking care of you. I have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. Now, theres skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months after just 2 doses. Skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. Before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. Nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. Im about to capture proof of the ivory billed woodpecker. What . . . No, no no no no. Battery power runs out. Lifetime Retirement Income from tiaa doesnt. Guaranteed monthly income for life. Nooooo guaranteed monthly that could allow hackers devices into your home. Ys
and like all doors, theyre safer when locked. Thats why you need xfinity xfi. With the xfi gateway, devices connected to your homes wifi are protected. Which helps keep people outside from accessing your passwords, credit cards and cameras. And people inside from accidentally visiting sites that arent secure. And if someone trys well let you know. Xfi advanced security. If its connected, its protected. Call, click, or visit a store today. We just heard from a democrat whos been present at the Impeachment Inquiries close door deposition. Now, lets go to The Other Side of the aisle for Republican Point of view on this. Kelly armstrong, member of both the House Oversight committee and the house Judiciary Committee. Congressman armstrong, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Well, let me start with the same question i started with mr. Meeks. Mr. Morrison, what kind of witness was he as far as you were concerned . I think mr. Morrison was a very good witness. I think it just goes to prove our point that we want all of these transcripts released. We want as much information out to the general public as soon as possible so the American People can decide whats going on down in the bunker. It sounds like youre for public hearings. So in some ways, youre glad
this process is going to become a more public thing. Why is that . As somebody who sits on both the Judiciary Committee and has dealt with this Impeachment Farce since the first day i got into congress and has sat through almost all of the oversight depots, i havent heard a single thing down there practiced criminal law for almost my entire adult life. There are procedures and things that go in place and as we get here, just public hearings isnt enough. Im not sure you can undo the damage that has already been done. I mean, this is about credibility, and due process. But yes, i want public hearings. I want them as quickly and as fairly as possible. One of the things that the new laws going to allow for if the president wants to call witnesses, he can. What witnesses do you think he should call . Or what witnesses would you like
to see called that havent been . I would like to see mr. Morrisons testimony as public as possible but those are decisions for the white house to take. I always air on the side of transparency. I mean, the one difference, we continue to equate these things to criminal cases but you have to remember at the end of any kind of criminal investigation, one, nothing leaks during the middle of it for as many criticisms i have of the mueller report, there werent leaks going out every 30 seconds to drive a narrative. But the problem when you leak specific things is facts are stubborn things and as the whole picture comes into play, particularly with the game of telephone evidence, youre starting so i i i mean, im just going to err on the side of my constituents and anybody in the country seeing all of it. Weve seen these Opening Statements and ill be honest with you. Ive been trying to be careful of just going by facts weve learned from Opening Statements and ive tried to ignore the sources say this was also said inside. But just based on the Opening Statements since that is something most of us have been
able to read, it is more transparent than anything else about this process. Have you been concerned about the number of instances where its clear the process wasnt followed here when it came to aid with ukraine . Well, am i concerned about it . First of all bs i want to start with Opening Statements arent even testimony. Theyre not part of the cross examination. Theyre not part of that process. So i i get testimony and evidence are two Different Things to begin with. Particul particularly, when theyre released without any cross examination. Also, i would argue that most of these Opening Statements are i mean, its not even hearsay because that would be some kind of official court proceeding. But its the game of telephone. Its third hand, fourth hand, fifth Hand Information and without having the ability to read those whole transcripts, its really hard to talk about that. I think those Opening Statements do not paint an accurate picture of what is being said. Well, okay. But they certainly are standing by it. Theyre saying it under oath. I mean, i do view i mean, should we not take whats said in those Opening Statements, whether its ambassador taylor, whether its fiona hill, that we shouldnt take that as their testimony . I think you should take that as their Opening Statements of their testimony. And when you have the whole transcript but ill start with this. I think this is abundantly clear and this is something ive noticed in d. C. Since the first day i got here. One of the things that the Career Establishment bureaucratic establishment doesnt like about the president is he doesnt do things in the same way that theyre used to. And i think actually thats why the guy got elected and thats why i was proud to support him. So saying that something wasnt done properly or through proper channels does not make it illegal, does not make it improper, and does not make it impeachable by any stretch of the imagination. Well, of course, there isnt a Legal Standard to impeachment. As you know, it doesnt matter something legal or not. As we know, impeachment is a political its a political definition. Right . We know i mean, whats impeachable . Its like a ham sandwich. What can you indict . You can indict a ham sandwich. Doesnt mean you convict a ham sandwich. As somebody whos served on the house Judiciary Committee and oversight committee, i can tell you with full support that this Impeachment Process is a purely political exercise. Is there anything youve heard thats been disturbing to you . Is there im curious. This because, you know, ive talked to plenty of republicans who are in this sort of middle ground. They dont believe its impeachable. But they do think the president did something here that he shouldnt have done. But there is no mechanism to sort of wrap his wrists because its either all or nothing. Yeah. I think the answer to all of that is whenever you put yourself in the situation of somebody else, particularly somebody with president trumps personality and those such things, would you have done some things maybe a little different . Sure. But that doesnt rise to the point of impeachment. Particularly, when youre dealing with the Democratic Party that started these the second day i got here and just moves from one issue to the
other. I have seen nothing remotely close to something that rises to the conduct of impeachable. And if impeachment was actually, you know, high crimes and misdemeanors, as somebody whos done in in the court of law my entire life, i would be happy to defend the president in any real courtroom. All right. The most important thing is prove a point to me. Are the Washington Nationals the only thing that United Congress these days . Is Washington Nationals are the only team youre allowed to have your second favorite team. But it was a great game last night. Fantastic. All right. Well, sort of the point ive been trying to prove. Its the one thing from keeping this town from totally cracking up. Congressman, thank you for coming on and sharing your views, sir. Appreciate it. Happy halloween. Thank you very much. Up ahead, how does the Impeachment Inquiry change now that congress is on the record . Nobody is surprised by how anybody voted on this one. So why did we make this so dramatic . Well be right back. E make thiso dramatic well be right back. Across cars. Trucks. And suvs. Four years in a row. Since more than 32,000 real people. Just like me. And me. And me. Took the survey that decided these awards. It was only right that you hear the good news from real people. Like us. Im daniel. Im casey. Im julio. Only chevy has earned j. D. Power dependability awards across cars, trucks and suvs. Four years in a row. Im happy to give you the tour, i lohey jay. It. Jay . Charlotte oh hi. He helped me set up my watch lists. Oh, hes terrific. Excellent tennis player. Byebye. I recognize that voice. Annie . Yeah she helped me find the right bonds for my income strategy. Youre very popular around here. Theres a birthday going on. Karl he took care of my 401k rollover. Wow, you call a lot. Yeah, well its my money were talking about here. Joining us for karaoke later . Ah, id love to, but people get really emotional when i sing. Help from a team that will exceed your expectations. Whwhat do you see . He world, we see patterns. Relationships. When you use location technology, you can see where things happen, before they happen. With esri location technology, you can see what others cant. We take no joy in having to move down this road and proceed with the Impeachment Inquiry. But neither do we shrink from it. Welcome back. To help unpack whats been a busy day here in wash washining. Always seems to know whats going on on the hill. Former advisor Hilary Clintons 2016 campaign. Former capitol hill Chief Of Staff herself nbc news contributor. Former Press Secretary bunch of Capitol Hill Rats in a good way i say. Right . Is that tough . Sahil, how significant is today . Its certainly significant in that this is only the fourth time in American History the house has voted we didnt learn much about where people are going to come down. Only two democrats across the
aisle. Theyre the only ones who really put a stake in the sand and said were going to vote against Party Leadership where people mostly get in line. No republicans voted for this. Theres plenty of time if they decide at the end of the day, theres time to do that. Democrats, similar story. These democrats can vote how they want in the final vote, that is what counts. Let me ask the two of you, you both have been advisors to members of congress up there. Ill start with you. If you have a democratic member of congress who said, look, i got to be against this impeachment at some point. Would you say todays the time to do it . Or wait till theres articles . Still tbd, right . We dont know how many similar votes like are going to come. Look, pelosis office is making the following point that it was important to get all this on the record to have members of congress, both democrats and republicans on the record voting for this because there are some changes to the procedural process for the Impeachment Inquiry. And yes, she didnt i think she felt it was very important
to be able to at least go out there and establish the fact that this was something the house voted on. This was not a Silo Decision that was only made by Speaker Pelosi. This is something that brought democrats and republicans together. Of course, there was a Party Line Vote but nonetheless she felt it was important to show shes working with republicans to put this on the floor. If you needed to the noimpeachment stake in the sand, is this a vote to do that on . Or would you wait . I think if my boss was going to be the lone member or one of the few, then i probably would have said lets go with the caucus. Find a way down the road to separate yourself. Brendan, same question on The Other Side. If youre advising a republican whos like i dont like what the president did, at some point i got to say that. There is safety in numbers. If there was a handful of people thinking about it, everybody would be focused on them if they went. But i want to clear perception there were a lot of hand wringers today. This may sound strange to people but today the president was potentially set up for impeachment and perhaps
republicans this was a big day. They left the capitol excited because theyve been itching to show that they are fighting for the president. Thats why they stormed the scif a few days ago to show that they were fighting for him. I guarantee you marc meadows earlier said today was a 9. 5 for him and just because of the political benefit. They all want to be seen as fighting for the president , being on his side. And frarnkly nothing excites republicans in the house more than being united. Heres what struck me about today, i feel like everybody hid behind leadership. At the end of the day, i when this vote first happened, i would have assumed everybody needed to explain their vote so that we would have had in fact, i assumed we were going to be stuck here doing Parade Coverage of just constant because like healthcare. Remember, it took hours because everybody wanted to make that statement to their local so their local tv station picked up what they said. Nobody wanted to explain their vote today. Its a procedural vote. Theres usually not a lot of explaining to be done on a
procedural vote unless you cross party lines. Okay but sahil, what yes, it was a procedural vote but it was not a procedural vote. It was big enough she decided to have the gavel which that sends a message. Absolutely it did. The speaker of the house typically does not vote. This was unusual magnitude. Look, one thing it does is this moves the whole Impeachment Process to a new phase. So far, its been procedural. Republicans have been calling this a sham, a farce. A lot of them have not been saying trump did nothing wrong. His argument is simply release the transcripts. Said differently like, you know, nobody is ready to be all in with him. You can tell that. Its always easier to attack the process. Ive been talking to a lot of folks. They are going to hold on to the Process Argument as long as they possibly can. But there is some recognition that thats going to run out eventually. You know, when theres public hearings. I think what you are going to start hearing a lot of is, no quid pro quo. Thats not the worst thing. It was bad but it wasnt that bad. It will shift the conversation away from did he ask for dirt on and and framing the question as was there something in exchange for it . Theyll say the aid flowed. Clearly, there wasnt anything done in exchange for that. So, therefore, no quid pro quo. Case closed. Thats the argument youre going to start hearing. Its a nuanced argument. I completely agree. And thats what republicans have been doing so far. They are running out of options on this. And when they go out and say theres no quid pro quo, thats when they start getting defensive of the argument, they are going against National Security leaders, military leaders. People who have received purple hearts. I mean, some of the most decorated veterans that we have who are so credible on these issues, they are going against them. And thats where i think this creates a very difficult situation for republicans. Really quickly, chuck, on the vote. I think its also important to keep in mind there are not a lot of Swing Districts left out there in congress, right . Yes, i mean democrats did very well in the midterms but when it comes to republicans, most the
republicans who are currently in congress, correct me if im wrong brendan, but pretty much right . Theres still about a dozen or so. Yes. Yeah but you lost most of them. Currently held by democrats. So i think republicans probably felt safe going out there and voting the way they did because not a lot of them are in marginal states right now. Sahil, i think democrats were dealt a bit of a timing blow today when we found out kuppermans hearing isnt going to be until December 10th. When you think about the public hearings, the potential power of public hearings with john bolton talking with, you know, somebody in their dress blues talking things like that. But if theyre not going to a clear when bolton can testify, and were talking into middecember, this whole the slower this gets rolled out, you know, i could see 2020 from my house. You know . Real timing blow. The real Nightmare Scenario is this kicks into january. Think midjanuary. The senate trial is in february. Well, at that point, can they have a trial if its in
february . Adrian, if you what would you do . We talked about this on the show before. Yes. You can have a trial. Its not the most ideal situation currently running exactly because you can be everywhere and the senators have to be back in washington on the trial. You can have surrogates on the campaign. Its going to be interesting to see the creative surrogates that are put out there. Let me argue the opposite. I dont think the story at this point is that there is stonewalling. I think from what i expected this to be, there is an embarrassment of riches of people who already testified. And i you know, and maybe this person has compelling testimony but i would argue theyve already got a bunch of compelling testimony and plenty of people they could bring forward for hearings as soon as they want to. You think they can do basically both things at the same time. Have their hearings and still fight their legal bat lgs. I think that court fight is going to be much more relevant long into the future, you know, the Article One Versus article two fight than it is relevant to this particular situation. Democrats are thinking like
prosecutors who have a defendant who theyre pretty well sure is guilty. But they know theyre going to face a very tough audience in the jury, which is the republicanled senate. Trying to cover every base so they dont get blindsided. Good way of putting it. They know they have the goods but they have a tough jury. Exactly. All right. Sahil, adrian, brendan, stick around. Coming up, there is a president ial Campaign Going on. Were going to give you evidence of it in a second. Were going to give you evidence of it in a second. Nothing and me go hand in hand nothing on my skin thats my new plan. Nothing is everything. Keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. Of those, nearly 9 out of 10 sustained it through 1 year. And skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. I see nothing in a different way and its my moment so i just gotta say nothing is everything skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. Before treatment your doctor should check you
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president ial campaign. Right now you got about this isnt, there is down days, you said you got breaks during national disasters, you not being the news, thats one thing. But this is going to be a sustained period of time where the president ial campaign is going to feel secondary. Sure. Its definitely a challenge, right . Because the National News and you obviously would know this than any of us on this panel, chuck, is going to focus on impeachment. Its going to drive the news, its that much harder if you are a candidate to get your point across. Kamela harris needs to find, is trying to get back into relevance. Or steve bullock. This is good if you are biden or warren, right . You are already on top . There is a chance that this freezes the primary. Its a chance to get out and focus on your message and get the headlines in the Des Moines Register and the manchester newspaper, really trying to get your local press going, that, you will not get a lot of
National News. Its a good time to get local headlines. You assume local news exists anymore, i assume all news is national. I remember when Elizabeth Warren said you dont find that. We find out you dont. I think it helps her and biden and people at the top. If you are a corey booker or Kamela Harris at this point you have no options, you better raise some money and do other things. I want to push. The undercard, people outside the top three, even if pete buttigieg, Kamela Harris, this is a time when boone happens, it happens on a national level. Jjj is where barack obama basically threw down the gauntlet in iowa. Everybody said, oh, this is real. Thats this weekend. Right . And you are right, can that boom happen if washington is obsessed . This is the moment theoretically to make that happen. Its hard to do without attention. I mean national attention, iowa
press can only get you so far. I will respectfully disagree. This is a time for candidates to focus on local press. Were not seeing what people are reading, digesting in the first four early states. But this is a chance to really focus on that. There are people watching their local news, reading their local newspapers. And again, that is why you are seeing in some of these early states, people are polling, candidates are polling better in their early states and national lid and vice versa. This is a chance to hone in on our local strategy and get your numbers up in the targett regions. I want to focus on one thing. We have, joe manchin went on fox a couple days ago, he was asked about Bernie Sanders, he basically said he doesnt think he can support Bernie Sanders if he were the nominee. Bernie sanders has a message for joe manchin. I would remind joe manchin of West Virginia to take a look at the Election Results in the last
democratic primary held in West Virginia. If my memory is correct, i believe, i won every county in West Virginia. And we won with a very strong victory. Look, elected democrat saying something about a top basically saying he cant support a top elected potential nominee. Is that a problem . I know bern . I on one Extreernlgs Manchin on the other . I dont think its a problem for manchin, i think for a Progressive Democrat more hoff a main stream democrat. Joe manchin is obviously taken. You have no problems with manchin . I do. He flirted with thep idea of running again. Even to Bernie Sanders he did sweep vest virginia. He did, its a smaller democratic electorate these days. Everyone in walk understands the situation joe manchin is in, in West Virginia. I think Bernie Sanders is the only person who would take a swipe at him there. You know, who thinks thats good politics for everybody
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