Transcripts For MSNBCW MTP Daily 20161206

Good evening and welcome to mtp daily, im chuck todd on a very rainy and cold washington. President obama just wrapped up what is being billed as his last Major National security speech of his presidency. The Closing Argument for the obama Foreign Policy doctrine and a rebuttal of critics who argue for a course change come january. He also provided a Strong Defense of what he calls america values on the National Security values, a not so veiled attack on some of the rhetoric president elect trump ran on. Donald trump himself is set to speak in North Carolina, alongside retired general james mattis, his pick for secretary of defense. Speaking at Mcdill Air Force base in tampa, president obama listed off some of his accomplishments in the eight years he spent as commander in chief. Today by any measure, core al qaeda, the organization that hit us on 9 11, is a shadow of its former self. Plots directed from within afghanistan and pakistan have been consistently disrupted. Its leadership has been decimated. Dozens of terrorist leaders have been killed. Osama bin laden is dead. Bottom line is, we are breaking the back of isil. No Foreign Terrorist Organization has successfully planned and executed an attack on our homeland. The administration claims the speech was planned months ago and was not intended to be a reaction to trumps election, but obama did seem to try to persuade his successor to continue some of his policies. A sustainable counterterrorism strategy depends on keeping the threat in perspective. The terrorist threat is real and it is dangerous. But these terrorists want to cast themselves as the vanguard of a new world order, they are not. They are thugs, and they are murderers, and they should be treated that way. We need the wisdom to see that upholding our values and adhering to the rule of law is not a weakness in the longterm, it is our greatest strength. We prohibited torture everywhere at all times, and that includes tactics likes water boarding and at no time has anybody who has worked with me has told me that doing so has cost us good intelligence. But what was most striking perhaps, was at the end of the speech, when president obama defended those american values. If we stigmatize good patriotic muslims, that just feeds the terrorist narrative. It will fuels the same false grievances that they use to motivate people to kill. If we act like this is a war between the United States and islam, were not just going to lose more americans to terrorist attacks, but well also lose sight of the very principles we claim to defend. The United States of america is not a country that imposes religious tests as a price for freedom. Folks, the trump doctrine is still tbd. His position is often a bit contradictory, and it changes depending on the audience hes addressing. So the question remains, can trump be persuaded and in the absence of a secretary of state, should we assume the trump doctrine is more in line with mike flynn or will the gravity of the office change him after he is sworn in, in january. And of course, what about president obamas legacy here . Is it a positive one, and will it be one that is seen positively in another generation . I want to bring in my guests here. Look, i want to do this in two parts. First, i want to start with obama and then well start with trump. Lets talk about obamas National Security legacy, michael. What will it look like in ten years, because theres so many ways you could slice this. Let me give you a simple one. The middle east today, more chaotic or less chaotic since barack Obama Took Office . More chaotic. I dont think thats an indictment of his Foreign Policy. I think his Foreign Policy is looking better in other parts of the world. I think hes done well with russia and china, although many would disagree with that assessment. The arab spring became the arab winter, or the arab chaos. And we know there are several countries at war. But hes right, al qaeda is a shell of his former self, and isis is tactically losing on the battlefield. So theres a mixed bag overall in the middle east. I think his overall Foreign Policy is fairly good, i think its middle eastern policy is more like mediocre. David, it is interesting to me, donald trump you could argue, successfully was able to run against two what president obama would have argued were Foreign Policy successes of sorts. One is the asian pivot, tpp, that whole thing, its turned into a domestic nightmare for him. That doesnt help the asian pivot. And then of course theres syria. And on one hand, he spiked the football a bit in that one interview with jeffrey goldberg, going, i have no regrets about not acting on the red line. But you look at brexit and the trump election, and maybe we does regret the syrian migration crisis. David, how do you read it . Certainly the migration crisis ended up destabilizing europe. I think when the Obama Administration first started looking at the Syrian Crisis in 2011, the idea was that it wasnt a vital American National interest. But the refugees that ended up destabilizing some of our closest allies, that turned out to be a vital american interest. So the interest shifted. At the same time, i think that the president set himself some goals that turned out to get in the way of their meechbs dealing with this. Youll remember that he stepped out fairly early on, under some pressure, and said that assad must go. But there was not a plan in place to make assad go. And i think they spent the next two or three years trying to figure out, did they want to commit the kind of resources necessary, in order to achieve that goal . And maybe it was the wrong goal. Maybe they just needed to reach a political conclusion to this war much earlier, before the russians got into it last year, and made it a much more complicated situation. You know, michael, the president said Something Else today that is statistically true, but you cant say the country has felt that. And that is the idea that he is the only twoterm president to basically be commander in chief for the entire two terms at a time of war. And many john mccain would say, he didnt remind the country enough that we were at war. What would you say to that . Well, picking up on davids last point, which was an excellent one about unrealistic goals, president obama of course set out the goals of trying to leave iraq and afghanistan entirely and he made that seem liket was the metric of success. I actually think on afghanistan, hes done okay. And on iraq, after some big setbacks, were now looking better. And so in you adjust to a more pragmatic standard, the record doesnt look so bad, at least in those two countries. But i agree to some extent with john mccain that there have been times where president obama really wanted to talk down there and in his reelection bid, he wanted to make the complete exit from iraq and afghanistan the standard for success. I think that was an unrealistic goal. He would have been better off saying, listen, im still trying to protect the country, prevent terrorist attacks, and to the extent possible, help these nations stabilize themselves. By those standards, i think his record is mixed, but a little better than against the unrealistic absolute one. Lets turn to trump, david. One clear message he wanted to send to not just trump but to some of his critics overall, hey, isis is a threat, but lets not turn them into that they can stand toe to toe with a world superpower. Explain the line hes trying to walk there. Well, i think the line hes trying to walk, chuck, is a fairly straightforward one. That isis poses a regional threat and perhaps could have some reach into the United States because it has inspired some here, fairly lowlevel attacks so far, weve been lucky enough that they have been low level. But when president obama looks across at the range of threats that he knows the next president will be facing, hes thinking, you know, youve got a lot bigger problems. You have russians who are intimidating europe, and youre saying very little about it. Youve got the chinese in the South China Sea and elsewhere. You have a north korea with a rampaging missile and nuclear program. And so the single focus that youve seen president elect trump and his National Security adviser or National Security adviser to be, michael flynn, have just on isis, i think the president president obama is having a hard time imagining that theyre going to be able to stay focused just on isis once they realize the complexity of the world theyre inheriting. Michael, do you have a sense of what you think a trump doctrine is going to look like . Is he going to govern crisis to crisis . I keep trying to tell people, hes ideologically malleable when it comes to domestic policy. And while theres some consistency on international policy, its not there is some contradictions. Well, i think youre right, chuck. Certainly hes flexible. Im just relieved that the doctrine is not going to be one of massive retrenchment, apparently. After all the talk we heard about u. S. Allies, who are not doing enough and therefore didnt necessarily merit the defense of their territory by the United States, despite treaty obligations ranging from nato to japan and korea and elsewhere, it doesnt seem that thats the message mr. Trump wants to send now. So whatever the doctrine winds up being, at least i dont expect its going to be one of a radical isolationism or a pullback from the world. Which whatever its merits might have been a hundred years ago, i dont think is realistic for a world like today where we have 50 or 60 allies. The system of allineses is working pretty well at keeping the peace. So im relieved at what the trump doctrine will not be, compared to my expectations a few weeks or months ago. If theres one country that is going to be a rival as far as donald trump is concerned, it is china. Weve had passive on china with bush, with obama, with clinton, with the other bush, even with reagan. Were not going to have that with trump, are we, david sanger . No, youre not. And he brought up, as soon as he got defensive about the taiwan phone call, he sent out some tweets about, not only the trade issues with china, but the South China Sea issues with china. And where this is going to get really interesting, chuck, hes going to need chinas help on whatever north korea strategy he puts together. And im not sure hes setting himself up right now for getting that help. Ive heard that from a lot of u. S. China experts, that the north korea issue may bring him back into saying a fewer nicer things about china, coming up. Wouldnt be the first president that happened to. That figures that out, exactly. Anyway, i appreciate you both. Thanks for your expertise. Coming up, the real fallout from socalled fake news. The madeup stuff. And why its not just dishonest. But now a possible threat to human beings. Plus, is hindsight 2020 for Vice President joe biden . Our own Kelly Odonnell tries again to get a straight answer about whether he does plan to run for the big job a third time. Stay tuned. I want a hippopotamus for christmas only a hippopotamus will do at the United States postal service, we deliver more Online Purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. And more hippopotamuses, too. So whatever your holiday priority, our priority is you. Welcome back. A few weeks ago, a group of democrats tried to recruit joe biden to be the next dnc chair. That failed, but last night the Vice President told reporters he might have one more office that he may run for. Are you going to run again . Yeah. I am. Im going to run in 2020. Um, so for what . For president. You know, so, what the hell, man. Just to be clear, were you kidding about running for president in 2020 . Im just, im not committing not to run. I love that, im not committing not to run. The old double negative. But we gotta ask. Is this serious, is it not . Biden will be 78 years old, 78 is the new 68. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell did try again to get an answer to that question. Guess what, he kept the speculation a little bit alive. Mr. Vice president , are we right to take you seriously about 2020 . Im not announcing it right now. Are you keeping the door open . Is biden hearing not another call to not serve, or is this more about the realization that he may have had the better chance at winning in 2016 than his former colleague in the obama cabinet . Anyway, stay tuned for more mtp daily show not, not ahead. Well be right back. I found a better deal on prescriptions. We found lower copays. And a free wellness visit. New plan. Same doctor. Im happy. Its medicare open enrollment. Have you compared plans yet . Its easy at medicare. Gov. Or you can call 1800medicare. Medicare open enrollment. Youll never know unless you go. I did it. You can too. Welcome back. According to a buzzfeed analysis, in the three months before the 2016 president ial election, articles with madeup news, madeup facts, from madeup sources, shared a higher rate than actual news thats factchecked from, the socalled mainstream media. As weve been reporting, one of those fake conspiracy theories had reallife consequences. Over the weekend a North Carolina man was charged with one count of assault with a deadly weapon. According to court documents, the gentleman traveled to comet pizza in washington, d. C. , to selfinvestigate a false internet Conspiracy Theory that had been dubbed pizzagate. It claimed that theorypizzeria harboring a child sex ring run by Hillary Clinton and john podesta. Folks, ridiculous stories get swept up in social media and spread like wildfire, sometimes even by people in power. Politico reports that trumps pick for National Security adviser tweeted dubious news stories at least 16 times since august 9. Hours after sundays incident, the twitter account belonging to flynns son tweeted about the pizzagate Conspiracy Theory, to the point of saying, well, prove that its not true. The younger flynn by the way is his fathers chief of staff at the flynn intel group. On morning joe today, mike pence said the younger flynn has no involvement in the transition process. But trumps spokesman later said the younger mikel flynn was helping his father early on in the transition, but is no longer involved. In fact, he was getting so involved, they were trying to get a security clearance, but its since been checked out. Lets bring in the panel. Usa todays Washington Bureau chief and ran esh from the national review. When i say fake news, our friends on social media say, thats you people in the msn. But lets be realistic, this is conspiracy theories that are made to look like a news story that almost cost somebody their life. And it seems not just false, but ridiculous, absurd, to allege that Hillary Clinton is running a child sex ring out of a pizza joint in northwest d. C. , but this guy believed it. And it shows how dangerous it is. Someone could have been killed. Affirmation, not information. Theres so much of that. Theres a joke in reporting, we call it too good to check. Thats like, i heard this, and then you check it out and its not true. Its more fun to read stories that are not true. Thats why novels outsell nonfiction on book shelves. Seems like true stories have been pretty crazy lately. What do we do about this epidemic . Its a real problem, and its a real problem figuring out how to solve it. One of the problems youve got, weve already had stories about facebook, for example, having a political tilt. So even if theres a problem, do you trust them to actually clampdown on it in a neutral and objective and transparent way . What does that even mean . Look at mike flynns son, prove to me that its not true. That is the, have you stopped beating your wife question. It is dangerous. This idea of post truth period, its dangerous for our democracy. It really challenges you all sort of in the who are real sort of press people, not me. Political consultants have to be i was going to say that. Politicians do, play a greater role. Because now politicians can, in fact, go above and around you, chuck, and they can go directly to the groups of people theyre trying to communicate with in a way they could not a decade ago. So you all become less relevant in this conversation and you see that slipping away with the fake news. They dont have to go through you, they can go to the people they want to. But it goes to the erosion of credibility and trust in institutions, including the press, that people are willing to believe something they see on facebook, an item thats shared by a friend rather than [ all speak at once ] we shouldnt be surprised by this, the facebook effect, in that arent you more likely to buy a product that a friend likes . Right . Than somebody that you dont know likes. So that has always been the power of sharing on social media. The email chain letter. Thats the problem, it becomes a chain letter. We also make the point the flynn story and the flynn jr story isnt just a fake news story, it goes to the judgment and temperament of people who may be or are going to be involved in this new administration. You could i mean, the fact that, if flynn is getting involved with this, at what point does it disqualify him from the job . He doesnt need confirmation. That doesnt answer my question. At what point does that disqualify him from the job . And that question goes do donald trump. Its up to him. If he was nominating a cabinet secretary who had done this, i would hope the senate would explore this in confirmation hearings, but the power of the presidency. But it doesnt disqualify him, because the person who is now president , came into power largely on this same sort of thing, saying whatever he wants to say, facts be damned. The person we need to bring up here, is this info wars cat, this guy alex jones. Let me play a clip where he has been a big trump supporter from the very beginning and thinks he and trump are like this. And ill tell you, it is surreal to talk about issues here on air and word for word hear trump say it two days later. It is amazing. And it just shows how dialed in this guy is and thats why theyre so squared cared on him. This guy in the 70s would have been on the high end of a. M. Radio. Hes just cuckoo for cocoa puffs. He rips his shirt off sometimes and get really angry at madeup news. He thinks sandy hook was a hoax, was fake. But we should also evaluate with a grain of salt, his assessment that trump is right on the same page with him. Hes a crazy person. Thats right. Now trump has sort of flirted with him. He like doesnt necessarily, you know, he but he did call in once. Right. And i think we have to make two points simultaneously. One is that trump and people around him have been cavalier about this kind of thing. Trump himself, remember, just casually spread this totally unfounded rumor about Justice Scalia maybe having been killed, but at the same time, i dont believe theres evidence that this is what grot trump elected. And i think people are going to respond negatively if it seems like excusemaking for is this a tactic that gets attributed to lbj, which is, just say it, who cares if its not true, just say it and make them deny it. He knows its fake, but put it in there, because it slimz the real journalists. Right, but whats our responsibility . And again im not a journalists, but whats the responsibility of journalists to confront this. The perception is you all werent hard enough on him. You know you pushed back on that pretty hard. But theres a perception out there that so much of what he said wasnt true and he got away with it in the mainstream media. I think the pushback, certainly criticism fair enough about press coverage of this campaign, but pushback was pretty severe, fact checks all the time on things he was saying, didnt have an effect on the voters who wanted to support him. That wasnt why they were supporting him. They were supporting him for other reasons, and not a big penalty to him on things that even if he said over and over and over again, for instance, the iraq war, no penalty for saying things that werent true. I think the irony, these Fringe Groups have gotten mainstreamed. Theyre wrong, but when theyre wrong, thinks its us. Thats part of just the forcing of him treating everybody the same. I think it has some of that. Also, people arent careful media consumers, and they know a lot of us in the media got the general election wrong and theyre not making all these distinctions. No, theyre not. Well take a break. Stay with us. Still ahead, are the culture wars over, or are they coming back in an odd way . Keep it here, well discuss. Spread a little love today spread a little love my way spread a little somethin to remember philadelphia cream cheese, made with fresh milk and real cream. Makes your recipes their holiday favorites. The holidays are made with philly. They keep telling me drink more water. Exercise more. I know that. Try laxatives. I know. Believe me. Its like ive. Tried. Everything my chronic constipation keeps coming back. I know that. Tell me something i dont know. vo linzess works differently from laxatives. Linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation, or chronic constipation. 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So if youre turning 65 soon, call now and get started. Because the time to think about tomorrow. Is today. Go long. Welcome back. So, where does the culture wars in america stand . Are we just getting started, or are they about to end . As bob dylan might say, the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind. Right now, its blowing all over the place, from voters, from trump, and his cabinet picks. In North Carolina, they sent the message that folks dont want the headaches of big social fights. The backlash of the bathroom fight cost pat mccrory his job. Mike huckabee is giddy. Trump has picked ben carson to run hud. Senator gejeff sessions, voted ban samesex, will be the nations top cop. Whats he going to do on some issues like the fact that 29 states have legalized recreational or medical marijuana in this country. If youre looking for clues from trump, you might want to keep looking, because trump himself is a bit of a conflict, a contradiction, when it comes to various social issues. He says hes fine with gay marriage as the law of the land, but is promising to appoint staunchly conservative justices. Trump took five positions on abortion in three days at one time as a candidate. Trump said he was against the North Carolina bathroom bill when he woke up, then he said he supported it before he went to bed. But if youre trump, you cant be wishywashy when you run the country, or sign laws that your a. G. Must enforce. Hows going to govern, what do voters want . Gallup says 60 of the country supports legalizing marijuana. Quinnipiac says 67 agree with the Supreme Court decision establishing a womans right to abortion. And gallup say 68 say gay marriage should remain legal. Im joined by Washington Post column mist and the National Reviews david french. David, what do you take out of North Carolina, that on one hand, they sent republicans to washington, but they fired a republican governor, especially, it appears, over one issue, a social issue. How do you take, what do you read from that . I take the same thing from that as from a lot of disputes. I feel like the public looking at culture war issues, unless youre dealing with the bases of both parties, kind of looks at who do they think is picking on whom. Who is being the bully in the situation . And i think that the media frankly did a really good job of portraying the North Carolina governor as the bully here. And there was brace dissidents standing up against him. When you cast that dynamic, it puts him in a Public Relations hole that he couldnt dig out of. But in other situations, theres been fascinating analysis that says a lot of the Obamas Administration overreach alienated working class voters. Saying they seemed more focused on the culture war than it does on jobs. So its a mixed bag. Same question to you. I think governor mccrory got in trouble for that, but also for Voting Rights issues, the wrol moral Mondays Movement down there, reverend barbers movement mobilized a lot of people to vote and participate remember, they voted trump, burr, cooper. Two rs and a d, there are a chunk of voters that did that or you wouldnt have the result. [ all speak at once ] i think it was a lot of issues at the state level, the bathroom bill being one of them. But the problem with trump as you suggested in your opener, hes been all over the lot on many of these issues. But trump seems to be ready to delegate his views on these issues to his constituencies. And he got 81 of the vote from white evangelicals, the best share a president ial candidate has gotten in a long time. And he gave a very strong antiabortion pitch in one of the debates that i think hes made implicit and explicit promises to them. So whether hes comfortable with the position or not, whether he really cares about the position or not, i think thats the direction hes going to move in, in a broadly social conservative direction, but not on gay marriage, it looks like. I go back and forth. I think he is going to respond to the election results, be thinking about 2020 and think, where well, i cant disappoint evangelicals, because they were more supportive of me than props they should have been given my mixed message that i sent to them. Yeah, i dont think he cares one bit about the classic culture war issues. I really dont. I dont think he cares that much about abortion one way or another. I think hes more than happy to use these issues to get what he wants. And i think hes more than happy to use the evangelical vote to get what he wants. I think hes paying the evangelical voter back right now, and i dont have a problem with many of his cabinet picks either. Hes put some outstanding picks out there. But when the going gets tough on these issues, if these issues are flaring up and his Approval Rating is low, thats where as a social conservative i would be concerned about his level of conviction, because i dont think he has any level of conviction on this. And if these issues are seen as knowa impediment to him or albatross around his neck, i would look for him to jettison his commitment quickly. I agree, i dont think he feels any of this stuff, but i think he knows where his Political Base is, and the people who will stick with him. The definition of a base are the people who are with you when youre wrong. And i think these people are more likely to be with him atlantic others than others in the electorate. The issue of marijuana, its going to be states rights and morality. Jeff sessions has amazed his position on marijuana very clear. Let me play a bite. We need grownups in charge in washington to say marijuana is not the kind of thing that ought to be legalize said, that its, in fact, a very real danger. As we all know, the federal government can just simply decide to enforce federal law and all of what these states have done, essentially, most of it can be nullified. David, whats your what do you expect do you expect a fight between social conservatives and libertarians on this one . Ive been running around social conservative circles for years and years and years, and marijuana is about number 100 on the list that the base really cares about. My view is leave it to the states. I dont think this is going to be a flash point in the conservative movement, because its not been a flash point in the conservative movement. There are many things that people care about far more than this. I think leaving it to the states. In fact, if youre going to talk about cultural issues more broadly, if you want to ratchet back culture war issues and ratchet back some of the culture war rhetoric, increased emphasis on federalism is the way to go. Let california be california, and let tennessee where i am, be tennessee. But what weve seen chuck, is that conservatives enforce states rights except when theyre not. Youve seen that at the local level, where when cities do something that conservative governments dont like, they take the authorities away from the cities. What youre setting up here, is if trump doesnt care about marijuana, but sessions goes on the offensive against these states, trump is either going to have to break with his attorney general, or youre going to have a conservative breaking with states rights. The Supreme Court pick is going to potentially buy a lot of time for trump, assuming he goes in a social conservative route. Do you expect him to get this right, david, as far as social conservatives are concerned . Oh, i think the first one. I think hes going to be replacing scalia, the pressure on him to go off his list, which his list is good, is going to be overwhelming. If he goes offlist with his first pick, thats going to scare an awful lot of people, and he would see immediate erosion in his base. So i think this first pick is the easy pick. The hard pick is if he has another one, and what is his Approval Rating then, whats the temperature of the country then . David, ej, fascinating discussion. I want to recreate this discussion every few months. Youre very interesting on this topic in particular. Thank you both. Up ahead in the lid, trump steps up to the bully pulpit. Well look at whats behind the boeing backlash. Says it wont let up for a while. The cadillac xt5. What should we do . Tailored to you. Wait it out. Equipped with apple carplay compatibility. Now during seasons best, get this low mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around 429 per month, or purchase with 0 apr financing. Welcome back. Tonight im obsessed with the democratization of media. Not all of it, giving americans a voice and liberating the flow of information from three networks and a handful of newspapers, all of whom were run by people who look and thought the same thing. What im talking about is a plague of fake news. There was a dangerous incident at the comet pingpong pizza restaurant here in washington. Its hardly the first time fake news has gained currency. James calendar famously spread rumors about jefferson, hamilton and those old enough to walk through airports in the 70s can remember all the crazy lyndon la ruch followers spreading nonsense about the queen of england. The more that news organizations debunk the story, the more it inspired new fake news and new followers that comment. Fake news is a virus that changes and replicates as it adapts to survive. Theres no easy answer, no quick fix, but politicians could start by not retweeting lies and conspiracy theories because it feels good. And by realizing that when they relentlessly bash the press, they soften the ground for false news to spread like a contagion. Discover card. Im not a customer, but im calling about that credit scorecard. Give it. Sure its free for everyone. Oh well thats nice and checking your score wont hurt your credit. Oh im so proud of you. Well thank you. Free at at discover. Com creditscorecard, even if youre not a customer. I think boeing is doing a little bit of a number. We want boeing to make a lot of money, but not that much money. Well, there you go, donald trump took his bully pulpit sky high today. This time its boeing. Trump went after the company in an earlymorning tweet, saying, boeing is building a brandnew 7d 47 air force one for future president s, but costs are out of control, more than 4 billion. Cancel order. Boeing responding, we are currently under contract for 170 million to help determine the capabilities of these complex requirements that match the president of the United States. Trumps words do have an impact. After that tweet went out, boeings stock dropped 1. 6 . By closing time, it had leveled off, but the message trump sent seemed clear. With that, panel is back. Ramesh, did you expect a republican president to be so aggressive against Corporate America . Carrier, carrier capitulated, now boeing. This is the power of the bully pulpit. Its a new power of the bully pulpit. I think if a dominican republicic president we democ president were getting involved with these companies, micromanaging them, calling them out on an individual basis, republicans in congress would be apoplectic what would you be saying . Im saying they ought to be now. This is not the appropriate role for the president or the president elect to be playing. It was interesting that Kevin Mccarthy to me yesterday, who has been very much Kevin Mccarthy, whos been very much capitulating to trump on a lot of things, but the number two in the house said, hey, were not going to be for this tariff business, will this boeing thing stiffen the backbone of other private sector conservative republicans . Maybe, or maybe it will make some Business Leaders really nervous about getting cross wise with the president for fear that he could be critical of them in a tweet and cost them stock prices. This is like different territory. Have we ever had a president in the past 50 years engage in behavior like this . Weve had industries, right . President s had gotten involved in industries. Obama in auto, kennedy in steel. Certainly, president bush george w. Bush did it with steel. Hey, Teddy Roosevelt held up on a pedestal for being tough on Corporate America. Well, you know. But not intervening with individual companies. With the federal government. Let me tell you what our republicans and friends have said. Hes a socialist. They would call him out as a flatout socialist. But at the same time, i think its interesting. It has to make wall street folks and some of the republican establishment nervous, because he is interfering it with the markets and republicans are not supposed to be for free markets, right . And clearly, hes interfering in a way that doesnt make the markets so free. But at the same time, chuck, if you think about his base. If you think about the voters that voted for him, and think about the people who have been hurt by the free market economy, this makes a lot of political sense for him, although, i think theres going to be conflict with the republican establishment here. You know, this strikes me as sort of the way trump actually built this real estate empire, which is, he doesnt worry about the longterm consequences of the debt of the deal. Its shortterm gain. And right now politically, this is shortterm gain. And its good gain for him. Well, shortterm gains have added up. Bashing china. Thats right. He did actually, you know, win the presidency with the strategy that people didnt think was going to work. Mocked him. And so im sure this is giving him confidence in every single thing hes doing. But the problem here isnt that its antibusiness, the problem is that its a disagree of interference. A kind of unhealthy connection between to the government and industry that i think is not good for the long run economic wellbeing of this country. And as one more sign, hes not a conservative republican, hes a populist when it comes to these issues. This is a populist hes a nationalist. I think nationalist more than populist. Because, and frankly, this is the sort of thing that you all would have called barack obama a socialist on, right . So i think you can go farther than this. When you interfere with the free markets, republicans arent supposed to be against this. It will be interesting on how he gets along with members of congress. This presents some uncertainty in Corporate America, which they have said they dont like. And they supported him, right . They certainly supported the republican party. Name a ceo in the fortune 100, though, that was supportive of trump that wasnt one . Thats fair. They would have supported any other nominee much more than let me move to joe biden yesterday. Was he joking or was he not . Im still sort of trying to figure that out. Should we play the biden sound real quick . I think we have it. Lets play it. We dont have the bite of biden with reporters, but it was, i think some people say it wasnt serious, but part of me thinks, boy, there is a there was a germ of truth. The question was jocular. The question wasnt a serious question. He answered in a way that made people think, is he serious. And i dont think he was serious exactly, but i think there is a germ of truth in the idea that hes sorry he didnt run this time. He would like to be president. If he could run in four years, i bet he would. I think that if biden would throw his hat in, you would be surprised at how many people would be supportive of him. This is someone who has stood beside the president would you have said that two years ago . I would have. I would have. Because joe biden is really liked. Weve talked a lot about politics, but in the end, people tend to vote for people they like. He is someone who would start off a lot more better position in the general public than Hillary Clinton did. And right now theres sentiment among democrats that, gosh, he should have run. Hes the one guy that could have stopped the party from fracturing the way he did. He could have played both identity politics and blue collar politics. He could have straddled that. But in four years, democrats surely will want to move on to a new generation and get past their leaders in their 70s. But who isnt . Gillibrand. Do you think republicans in 93 were saying that and ended up with bob dole in 96 . A lot of people thought bob doles days were done. How did it work out for them . If theyre up against a donald trump thats running for reelection, that does somewhat neutralize the age issue. But i also think there is a warren sort of segment of the party, sort of that populist leftwing grassroots who they want for the candidate and i dont know that joe biden is their candidate. It could mean were all curious now if hes going to somehow find ways to get to iowa. The election has started already. Dont laugh. I think i saw how jason kantor, who didnt even win, is going to iowa. Everybody will be going to iowa in the next month. Anyway, susan, cornell, ramesh, thank you, as always. A little more mtp daily right after this. Go, go [ rock music playing ] have fun with your replaced windows. Run away [ grunts ] leave him leave him [ music continues ] brick and mortar, what . [ music continues ] [ tires screech ] [ laughs ] [ doorbell rings ] when you bundle home and Auto Insurance with progressive, you get more than a big discount. Thats what you get for bundling home and auto jamie you get sneakygood coverage. Thanks. Were gonna live forever finally, in case you missed it, democrats are getting just a libtd desperate these days when it comes to senate seats. Louisiana, as it gnarly now does, is holding its Senate Runoff election on saturday. The president elect, donald trump, is traveling to the state to support the republican candidate, john kennedy. No relation to the kennedy family, by the way, on the democratic side. Meanwhile, the democratic candidate, vosser co eser campb is trailing, put out a press release attacking kennedy as a onetime liberal candidate and is saying this about Donald Trumps visit. Im glad the president elect is bringing attention to louisiana and i look forward to working with him on the things he agrees with me on like term limits and rebuilding our roads, bridge, and ports. Thats a democrat not just saying nice things about donald trump, but hugging him in hopes of picking up republican votes. My, how things have changed in just over a month. Thats all we have for tonight. Well be back tomorrow with a lot more mtp daily, but Chris Matthews picks up our coverage right now. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington if and we start with breaking news. Next hour, donald trump will hold a rally in fayetteville, North Carolina, the second stop on his thank you tour. Hes bringing along his pick for defense secretary, retired fourstar general, james mad dog mattis. A short time ago trump tweeted this picture showing him standing with mattis on the plane headed to North Carolina. Mattis is expected to take the stage tonight and speak at the event. Lets go right now to nbcs Chris Jansing who is already in fayetteville. Reporter were expecting to hear about