Money. Yeah. Taxpayer money there, theyve got roads to fix, Police Overtime to pay. They have their own bills. So it is not like they have a preponderance of cash to give out whenever the president comes to town. It is especially egregious when you consider he took in 125 million in the last Third Quarter alone. They have the money to pay the cities back. Remember, you think of this when there are natural disasters and president s or governors take trips in, what are you taking from resources required. We dont think about it in terms of campaigning and might be something we should be thinking about. It is thursday, october 10th. This investigation is about corrupt behavior, what the assistant director in charge of the fbi new york office made clear after the Southern District of new york arrested three businessmen, two associates of his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, for alleged Campaign Finance violations. Last hour, both u. S. Citizens, donors that gave money to a Political Action Committee Supporting trump appeared in federal court in virginia. According to the indictment, parnas and fruman conspired to funnel foreign money to candidates for federal and state office specifically, this is important, so they could buy potential influence with candidates, campaigns, and the kanlds governments. They tried to hide the source from federal regulators and the public by laundering foreign money under names of limited Liability Corporations and straw donors. Were going to get into why thats important in a moment. Just as they made their first appearance, they said the investigation is, quote, continuing. They were arrested around 6 00 p. M. Last night at Dulles Airport this were about to board a flight with one way tickets. Protecting our elections from unlawful foreign influence are Core Functions of Campaign Finance laws. As this office has made clear, we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those that engage in criminal conduct that draws into question the integrity of our political process. Another reason to familiarize with these names and faces. They helped giulianis efforts to push ukraine to investigate former Vice President joe biden and his son hunter. And theyre key witnesses in the house impeachment inquiry. Shortly after the indictment was released, three house committees leading the inquiry formally subpoenaed both donors after they rejected requests for documents and testimony. The Trump Campaign declined to comment to nbc news. John dowd, an attorney for two associates, did not immediately respond to request for comment from nbc news. Giuliani told nbc news he would not yet comment. You can always expect at some point he will have something to say. Lets get to ken delaney at the federal courthouse in virginia, tom winter at the Attorneys Office for Southern District of new york. During the press conference, chief Legal Correspondent ari melber, host of the beat. Tom, start with you, what charges are laid . Reporter four primary charges, two counts of conspiracy and also has to do with falsifying records. When you make a political contribution, if you make it with respect to a protrump super pac, if you say it is from a specific company, Energy Company that these two people started, it cant come from a loan or other monetary means which is what theyre charged with here. Basically what the u. S. Attorney office laid out through the course of the grand jury indictment today is a scheme to take money from a Foreign National they dont identify and inject it at various points into the political system. In particular, there was an effort here, they only identify the person as congressman one, but the reporter myself and my colleague have been told this congressman is Pete Sessions who was in congress recently not elected from dallas, texas area. Wanted to provide money to him. They maxed out contributions to him in an effort to see if he could lobby for removal of the u. S. Ambassador to ukraine, something in the news a lot. You have been speaking a lot about as relates to the whistleblower complaint in more recent conversations involving giulianis involvement in ukraine. Thats kind of the broad overview of what theyre up to. Of course, this is something that the fbi and department of justice has been speaking out about a lot in the last several months. We talked about it with russian interference, now talking about it with other countries interfering, and the assistant director of the fbi bill sweeney talked about that today as far as their focus and their intention to go after people, and we can take a listen who were involved with these type of donations. These finance laws exist for a reason. The American People expect and deserve deserve an election process not influenced by foreign interest and the public has the right to know the true source of Campaign Contributions. Laws make up the fabric of who we are as a nation. We gather evidence, collect facts, will act on them when appropriate. As jeff mentioned, our investigation will continue. Reporter i think that last point there, ali, that the investigation is continuing is an important one. We know that these individuals that were charged today made other Campaign Contributions that were not referenced here, including Campaign Contributions to the House Minority leader, kevin mccarthy. Theres no indication that theres any wrongdoing with respect to donations, no indication that congressman mccarthy has anything to do with this or is involved in any sort of investigation. Ken, tom laid out the facts quite well. Try and draw a picture for our viewers here about what the connection is between these men arrested. Rudy giuliani and his efforts on behalf of donald trump and donald trump himself. Reporter so what we have, ali, at a men, people acting on trumps behalf accused of corruption. It was just over a year ago, paul manafort, his campaign manager, was convicted of fraud in the courthouse behind me. One of his lawyers is representing the two men in the appearance today. It seems to go much further beyond that, ali. These two men were represented by Rudy Giuliani. He has said that publicly, in their endeavors in ukraine, seem to be wearing two hats with regard to ukraine. They made these contributions, cultivated political influence, were introducing Rudy Giuliani to ukrainians who rudy was lobbying to investigate the bidens, pursue other investigations that donald trump wanted. At the same time, they were pursuing private business deals, in particular a natural gas deal and were trying to get rid of the u. S. Ambassador to ukraine who was apparently standing in their way from a business perspective, telling everyone in ukraine they had the power to do that. She then was recalled to washington. They made a proposal to replace the ceo of the ukrainian gas company. What Congress Wants to know from these people is obviously what did they talk to giuliani about in tefrrms of pressuring ukrainn officials. What were the private business dealings, connection with Rudy Giuliani, and what role did that play in efforts to pressure ukraine. Lastly, theres a question of who paid for all this. Rudy giuliani has not really answered who was paying for his travels to ukraine, meetings in europe with ukrainian officials. These men were paying rudy as a lawyer, we dont know the circumstances of that, thats what federal investigators and congressional investigators will be finding out. Ari melber, this is interesting grit for those of us that are journalists that like to look into these details, curiosity about the things ken is talking about, who is paying for this and possibly shady dealings. For most people, this is only relevant in a larger context, the context in which we are looking at donald trump. Fair. Look, you ever wonder what criminal Foreign Policy looks like, here it is. This is the prosecutors in new york who are appointed by the Trump Administration saying you have people out here allegedly committing crimes, funneling money to a trump super pac. Headline number one. Boom. Then you have individuals currently in demand as impeachment witnesses in the ukraine scandal for donald trump. They got arrested. Boom, headline number two. And three, what do they know about Rudy Giuliani and dealings with the white house, under significant pressure as we have seen other people like mr. Manafort, said he would never flip, flipped. Mr. Gates, flipped. Mr. Cohen in jail now, flipped. These two asoes ats of Rudy Giuliani flip. Theres a lot here that terrifies people at the white house. Is there enough here to allow you, and you are a lawyer, to be able to say i know what this narrative could look like, in other words, do we know, they had their hands in a lot of stuff, theyre involved with Rudy Giuliani, and we know Rudy Giuliani is involved in a lot of stuff, some of that connects to donald trump. Can you get from a to f . Great question, ali velshi known for great questions. There are two theories. Heres one good for the white house. A theory many are accused of crimes, innocent until proven guilty, if convicted did bad things, associated with people, thats as far as it went, bad apples defense and thats it. The other theory is that the people on the screen you see now and other individuals close to trump and Rudy Giuliani did know about the extent of this, that there was a larger criminal plot to take over u. S. Foreign policy, not for the benefit of the United States, not for ideological reasons, rather for criminal reasons, for abuse of power reasons, get rid of anyone that wont play ball in abuse of power to get foreign meddling into the u. S. Election, try to do in 2020 what bob mueller found didnt happen to a criminal degree in 2016. I am talking about a theory of the case where other pieces fall into play and theres a provable 2020 election conspiracy. That has to make Rudy Giuliani nervous. It would go without mention to add, kind of obvious, but Rudy Giuliani used to have the job as top prosecutor. Today they indicted two of his closest associates, wanted also for impeachment testimony. He knows how this works. The flipping i mentioned, that happened in his office. He knows the screws are going to come down on these people to tell us everything you know. This is at the moment a Campaign Finance indictment. Yep. Interesting that these two guys, by the way, if you ever try to get away from the law, buy a return ticket, makes it less suspicious. They were on a one way ticket out of the country, some inference there that maybe theres more to this. Ali, some prefer spontaneous travel. Do we think this is what it looks like . There seems to be emphasis, tom winter made the point that the prosecutors today said this is a continuing investigation. Right. I think that remains open. In fairness to everybody, based on the public information, these were not fugitives from the law, not fleeing from a new indictment, not an oj bronco. Just leaving the country. But they were leaving the country. And they were right in that gray zone between not fugitives in fairness to them but not leaving under normal and neutral circumstances. Including the fact they were subpoenaed by the house. Facing requests from the house. They knew they were in demand. They knew they were tied to Rudy Giuliani. In that forum, they then leave. Legally, thats not a criminal act, not a fugitive from justice, but does look bad. In fairness, if thats as bad as it gets, it may have stopped with these individuals. You have money going to the trump super pac, removal of the ambassador, the house openly looking at this as an existential question of the president. This adds to the quantum of evidence. Often a return ticket is less than a one way ticket. Are you bringing finance law to the table . One way tickets dont generally make sense in life, criminal or not. Good to see you. Tom winter, thank you for great reporting. Appreciate your wisdom. You can see ar ion the beat 6 00 p. M. Eastern. To the middle east. Turkey advanced the military tr assault in syria. Tens of thousands of residents have fled homes since air strikes began pounding the region wednesday. Tark a look. You can see civilians, packing bags, piling into vehicles in attempt to escape. Columns of black smoke rise in the region as a result of the air strikes. I want to give you pictures and ask the control room, were not. Okay. There are remarkable pictures of whats happening. Joining me, keir simmons live from turkey. Keir, whats the situation as you can tell . Reporter hey, ali, we are here because we retreated a bit away from where we were today. We were on the border with syria. We watched a bombardment of turkish artillery hitting syrian positions. Throughout the day in terms of saying theyre taken 11 of them, looks like they as you mention, it has lead to thousands of kurds fleeing, civilians, trying to get away from fighting. And as ever with a fight, battle, it is two sided, not one sided. While we were there, more artillery fired by the kurd position to the Turkish Forces fired into turkey here. A number of people were killed, including children. We actually heard mortar firing over our heads, the deep whistle, familiar sound, landing in a field beyond us. That was the point in which we began well, we need to move away, particularly as it got dark. Thats enterprise is going its way and it certainly should be because it has the fire power, there are days ahead, they may be difficult days ahead, particularly if turkey tries to hold urban areas that are majority kurdish because of course that gets a lot more difficult. It is easy in one sense to fire artillery, drop bombs from airplanes. Harder to hold a territory. What were hearing from turkish ministers tonight is their plan is to hold 20 mile corridor if you like along that border. It will be interesting to see whether they are really able to achieve that. Keir simmons on the turkey, syrian border. Joining me, two experts on u. S. Policy and operations in the middle east. Steven cook, senior fellow on the council of Foreign Relations, and retired four star general, served as u. S. Operations command, key role in overseeing operations against isis in the middle east. General, i want to start with you, following what keir was just talking about. This is a live war. Important for viewers to understand. These are airplanes leaving from turkish base the United States used as a Foreign Operating basin the middle east, launching strikes against a Group Formerly allied with the United States, both fighting in a war where people have been killed. This is a remarkable escalation in something that the United States could have had a role in not escalating. Yeah, thanks, ali, great to be with you. I couldnt agree more. In my article earlier this week in the atlantic, thats the point we tried to make. There were a number of options to try to prevent this. Now that it is under way, it is in everyones interest to bring it to conclusion and get the parties talking again. Steven cook, i dont know how many years we have been talking about turkey and its unusual approach to Foreign Relations in the years since trying to join the european union, and that didnt succeed. Turkey is a nato member, an official ally of the United States. This wouldnt have happened without u. S. Clearance to allow it to happen. Well, it is certainly the case that turkey is a treaty ally of the United States, harder to make the case it is actually a partner. In this circumstance, it seems that president erdogan prevailed in his view upon President Trump that one, isis has been defeated, two, theres no reason for the United States to be in Northern Syria, the washington Syrian Kurdish allies known by the ypg are terrorists and turkey can be responsible for northeastern syria, so the United States no longer has to be. As a result, the United States redeployed away from the area and we are seeing a turkish assault which is resulting in more displacement of more syrians and deaths of more syrians as well as turks. It is an extraordinarily risky thing for the turks to do, however. It is one thing to get into syria, another thing to be able to get out. General, lets talk about who wins and loses in this. Obviously turkey gets a freehand to do what they need to they believe they need to control to put the thumb on the scale for the faith of the kurds. Who loses and this . Isis itself. Within the chaos, within the conflict here, they look for opportunities to resurge. One of the concerns we should have is this is opportunity for isis, and the assad regime, backed by russia win in this particular situation. They can take advantage of this as well, put additional pressure on the kurds in the northeast and look to achieve their objectives. None of this feeds back to the original objectives we had here which is defeating isis and we have been successful against the caliphate but effort lately are about keeping them from resurging, we have been doing that with our partners, Syrian Democratic forces that have been very effective against isis. Steven, lets talk about long term consequences. The alliances you mentioned turkey is not necessarily a partner but treaty ally of the United States. Donald trump since coming into office has shown a little less regard for some of the arrangements anyway. But these treaties are hard to come by. When somebody allies in a serious effort like the elimination of isis, is this an important message, is this a pivot that says that the United States is not necessarily sticking with you . I think thats right. I think this is another indication for American Allies or would be allies when the United States comes calling and asking for assistance, that washingtons word is not necessarily good. Let me remind you that the situation in Northern Syria in which the United States is essentially pulled back from working with the Syrian Democratic forces or the ypg comes just a couple weeks after what is believed to be an iranian attack on saudi arabia to which the United States responded in an extremely limited way. This is teaching American Allies, particularly American Allies in the middle east that theyre essentially on their own. What we know when some of these countries believe theyre on their own, they take initiatives and that leads to chaos. One needs to look no further than, for example, yemen as an example of that. It is i think a significant problem in terms of american reliability and future stability of the region. Thanks to you both. Steven cook, senior fellow of middle east studies at the council on Foreign Relations, and joseph votel, former commander of u. S. Central command 2016 to 2019. Kellyanne conways husband calls for expedition of impeachment inquiry. Plus, we head back to the middle east later in the hour for a live report from syria. The kurds are fighting back. Youre watching msnbc. E kurds a. Youre watching msnbc. Liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. I wish i could shake your hand. Granted. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. The final horn doesnt have to mbecause with Nhl Center Ice on xfinity you get up to 40 outofmarket games per week. And with the allnew xfinity sports zone, you get everything nhl all in one place, even notifications about your favorite teams. Watch every barn burner, barreling check, and all the top shelf action. Plus get instant access to your teams with the power of your voice. Thats simple, easy, awesome. Say Nhl Center Ice into your voice remote to upgrade for a great low price, or go online today. Working tirelessly to push criticism against all things surrounding house impeachment to the rest of the country. In addition to the president seemingly never ending daily tweets, the Vice President mike pence is barn storming around the country to attack impeachment, supporting democrats in districts that President Trump won in 2016. Heres the thing. Latest fox news poll shows a higher average of voters that want trump impeached, removed from office. 51 of voters, not democrats, voters agree with that sentiment. Thats a 9 percentage point increase from july. For all of you people that dont like polls, thats a fox news poll. Add to that, more than a dozen prominent conservatives, including michael conway, husband of kellyanne conway, white House Counselor, call for expeditious impeachment probe. They wrote we believe the acts revealed publicly over the past several weeks are fundamentally incompatible with the president s oath of office, duties as commander in chief, and constitutional obligation to take care of the laws be faithfully executed. These acts based on what is revealed to date are legitimate basis for expeditious impeachment investigation vote in the house of representatives. And potential trial in the senate. Joining me, one of the attorneys that signed the letter, marissa malek, thanks for joining us. How did this come about . Thanks so much. Well, our group formed about a year ago once the president started to sort of influence where it seemed like he had been influencing elections before, you saw this with the mueller report. This is after the whistleblower complaint even more pressing. We fully support the house moving forward. Heres the question. For conservative intellectuals, as opposed to Donald Trumps crowd, one of the things donald trump gets to campaign on and gets support of people that dont really like him on is the idea that he has moved the courts to the right, he has named conservatives with the help of the Heritage Foundation and federalist society, to courts across the country. Thats something that conservatives consider a win, have held their nose at donald trump because of. Thats right. I mean, i think that the president s process with respect to the judiciary has been very strong and thats not something that our group has any issue with. That doesnt mean that just because a president is doing good with respect to one aspect of what hes supposed to do is doing good with everything else. Where he is falling short is assuming a lot of power that the constitution doesnt grant him. I want to understand. Does your conservative thinking assist you coming to the conclusion there need to be an impeachment inquiry . Yes. I think that whats been coming out in the news, especially with respect to giulianis associates now possibly being charged with Campaign Finance reform, it is a lot more information is coming out that it looks like the president was trying to use ukraine to investigate a political opponent. If this all bears out, that to me does rise to the level of a high crime and misdemeanor, and the constitution gives the house the power to investigate whether or not they have a formal vote to start the process doesnt have a bearing on what theyre doing. I think the white House Counsels position that this investigation is void is fairly ridiculous and has no support in the law. So i appreciate you being here. You are a member of the federalist society, that would be normal for you to be. Yes. So do you have, are there internal arguments, do conservative lawyers sit with each other and say i get it, this doesnt seem right, he should be investigated, but the alternative may not be as supportive of a conservative judiciary or appointments to the court. Do you have to weigh that . I dont think so. I mean, i have always supported senator romney and had he been the nominee, had he been president , he wouldnt have engaged in half these things. But i am sure his judiciary would have looked just as strong. Appreciate talking to you. Senior associate at keenan spalding, one of the attorneys that asked for an expeditious impeachment probe of President Trump. Why the president s refusal to cooperate in the impeachment inquiry cant be chalked up to trump being trump again, putting himself above the law. Whats different this time. How it is dangerous for the presidency and why it might be called a constitutional crisis. I will discuss that next. With concerns growing, turkeys attack could invigorate isis, whats next on the jihadist organizations. Youre watching msnbc. Organizas youre watching msnbc. What if other kinds of plants captured it too . If these industrial plants had technology that captured carbon like trees we could help lower emissions. Carbon capture is Important Technology and experts agree. Thats why were working on ways to improve it. So plants. Can be a little more. Like plants. Introducing new Vicks Vapopatch easy to wear with soothing vicks vapors for her, for you, for the whole family. New Vicks Vapopatch. Breathe easy. As President Trump vows to block his participation in the house impeachment inquiry, the Washington Post Editorial Board said it is tempting to ignore his unhinged letter to congress. The president is asserting autocratic authority to ignore the peoples elected representatives. Jennifer reuben joins me now. Thanks for being here. The white House Counsel issued the letter were talking about tuesday declaring President Trump and his team will not cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. In response, the post writes if he has a specific claim circumscribed write to executive privilege should prevent turnover of a document or testimony of a witness, he should make a case by case argument. Instead, he has essentially claimed he can ignore congress if he so chooses, in true trump fashion, insists his lawlessness is constitutionally approved. I quote that to you only because i think the Washington Post put that very clearly that President Trump is ignoring oversight and trying to convince people that oversight is actually unconstitutional. Thats right. He is thwarting the constitution. The only real check on the president who misbehaves in office is impeachment. By not giving them information, by inventing excuses not to produce material by telling associates and former asosociats not to testify, he is taking impeachment power away from the house on himself. We cant have him being the judge of whether he committed high crimes and misdemeanors. You know who made that argument effectively . Senator Lindsey Graham during impeachment of bill clinton. He got up in the weg ll of the house, made the case as well as anyone can make it. Donald trump cannot say i am not allowing you to go forward, thats how i remain in office. That in and of itself is obstruction of congress. Thats the third article of impeachment against nixon, that he failed to cooperate with subpoenas, with other requests for information from congress. What do you think the solution looks like. Donald trump continues to make this about democrats who dont want him in office and are treating republicans badly. In other words, grouping himself in with republicans. You have been a republican. Youre a conservative. I spoke to a conservative lawyer that says that the flouting of the rule of law has never been part of conservatism in american politics and thought. Thats right. The very people defending him used to run around saying theyre in favor of the rule of law, that it is democrats that want sheer power as opposed to constitutional restraint and constitutional niceties. It is gross hypocrisy of those defending him. This is limited usage for him. He used this stunt so many times that people simply are not buying it, and it is as the Washington Post Editorial Board said so overbroad, so all encompassing, really a ridiculous letter on any level that it is not to be taken seriously. I think the house has handled this correctly, which is we would love to have the information, but by the way, we have plenty already. Were going to go ahead, get whatever witnesses we can, then drop articles of impeachment and probably one of them will be obstruction of justice or congress. And that makes a lot of sense. Remember, they already have the goods, they have trumps own words. Every time he attacks the whistleblower, i say so what. That information has been now confirmed by direct evidence from people that are involved in the conversations, from a transcript of the conversation. He has very few excuses and thats why you hear republicans, particularly senators, running from the press who asks by the way, is it okay to have a Foreign Government interfere in our elections. Because of course the answer is no, donald trump is then caught. Good to talk to you as always. Jennifer rubin, opinion writer at the Washington Post. Tens of thousands of people in syria are fleeing in cars, trucks, on foot, nothing more than what they can carry after launch of a turkish offensive. Youre watching msnbc. Rkish off. Youre watching msnbc. vo the subaru crosstrek. Dog tested. Dog approved. Subaru establishes National Make a dogs day. Helping hardtoadopt dogs find homes. Their medicare options. Ere people go to learn about before theyre on medicare. Come on in. Youre turning 65 soon . Yep. And youre retiring at 67 . Thats the plan well, youve come to the right place. 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A Kurdish Military general tells nbc news its fighters assigned to guard roughly 12,000 isis prisoners in Detention Centers are now rushing to the border. As a result, the isis captives are a second priority. At the height of the isis insurgency in 2015, the terrorist organization had seized control of all areas you see on the map in brown. 2015. Thats what isis controlled or largely controlled. Following an International Combat mission to defeat isis, which included in large part kurdish fighters, isis lost control of all major strongholds. And most of any territory it controlled. Joining me, matt bradley in iraq. Despite the fact isis has been out of the scenario awhile, the new offensive by turkey into syria into kurdish controlled syria resulted in civilian fatalities and military fatalities. Reporter yes, ali, were only seeing the beginning here. You have to remember that the actual incursion started more than 24 hours ago. But were actually the ground incursion with soldiers going in on the ground, thats kind of new, only hours old. Weve already seen 23 civilians who have been killed, according to an information center, providing pretty reliable information so far. They say there are 23 injuries. And theyre not shy about tweeting the photos. Also said that the refugee situation, that could really grow. Were starting to hear talk of whole cities along the border with turkey that are all but abandoned, and major hospitals and major cities on the border have been basically abandoned, no longer operational. If anyone is wounded, theyll have a hard time finding relief. Were hearing from the International Red cross that theres about 64,000 people left their homes already. Where theyre going to go, it is unclear. They could come here to Northern Iraq, kurdish controlled area of Northern Iraq, but it is not entirely clear theyll let them in. It is a reboot of the same refugee crisis we have seen since the Syrian Civil War started in 2011. Again, it is tragedy upon tragedy. And depth of anger against the u. S. Is palpable. Remarkable to remember it has been since 2011 a major humanitarian disaster, now we may be piling another one on top of it. Matt bradley, thank you as always. This afternoon, republican illinois congressman who is not seeking reelection announced he is pulling support from President Trump because of the decision not to support the kurdish fighters. I am heartbroken. In fact, i i called my chief of staff and said pull my name off the i support donald trump list. I mean, this was just we have just stabbed our allies in the back. The kurds go back to the furs gulf war. We protected their air space and the no fly zone. They of all areas have been loyal u. S. Allies, supporters, and been doing well. This is just shocked, embarrassed, angered me. Joining me, nbc news correspondent Richard Engle and New York Times Foreign Correspondent. Thanks to you both for being here. You were in syria when the last of isis in terms of Holding Territory came to an end, in many cases thanks to work being done by kurdish allies there. They were dissipated, largely eliminated, at least as a territorial force. Yes. Give me a sense whether you have concern about resurgence of isis or pockets of isis support as a result of this action in syria. Absolutely. In the final weeks of the territorial caliphate we saw tens of thousands of people emerging from isis last village. In one camp, roughly 70,000 people, vast majority of them being women and children of isis members, and the prisons have filled up with men, including many foreigners that fought for the group. So one of the big concerns right now is that as the kurds are rushing to the border to try to reinforce their front line against the turks, what is going to happen to these detention facilities that are already at the breaking point. Richard engle, lets talk about the fact you heard the congressman shimkus as many talk about the kurds as American Allies, embarrassment he feels in the fact that america has turned its back on them. While turks themselves are allies, nato allies, part of a Treaty Alliance but the turks and kurds dont hold the same power against each other. It is not likely the kurds can hold out against a major offensive by the turks for very long. Reporter no, not in any kind of conventional war, no. They will have to go underground, theyll have to take up guerrilla tactics which will only make them look more like terrorists, which is what turkey says they are to begin with. Going back to what you were saying, yes, the kurds have been u. S. Allies a long time. I wouldnt say the chaos here started in 2011, it goes back to the iraq war, to 2003. And in the kurdish regions in Northern Iraq no u. S. Soldiers or almost no u. S. Soldiers were attacked. It was a safe area. U. S. Troops could walk around the kurdish regions without their flap jackets. I remember in those areas they were sometimes american flags in the windows. Not the case in fallujah or basra or any other to fight against isis. This was always the deal. The kurds will fight with the americans in exchange they will get protection. They wanted to have some sort of independent homeland. They werent getting the kind of rights that they had longed for under bashar al assad. They have long been oppressed by turkey. They thought finally the americans are here. If we help them out, we can get something of our own. They had an autonomous area here with protection for the last four years. And they have developed a unique society. It is one of the still one of the only safe places in the region. You can drive around. And now that area, that pocket that they have carved out with u. S. Support is under attack. And it is not just an assault. It is a settlement campaign. And thats what i think people really need to understand. The turks are not just coming in to eliminate this kurdish controlled pocket. They are opening the doors and they talk about this only for between 1 to 3 million refugees who are going to come and live here, arab refugees meaning nonkurdish refugees. So when the kurds say this is the start of an Ethnic Cleansing Campaign that President Trump opened the door for, it is very easy to see what theyre talking about. And president erdogan of turkey showed a map of this area that they want to control. This isnt a secret mission. You and rukmini, you and richard have both worked in areas that have been controlled by the kurds. Im sure youve talked to some of them. What is their sense of betrayal by the United States on this . Well, if uh, i can say that its absolute betrayal. Sorry about that. We have delays with both of you. Sorry, richard you go ahead. Rukmini, you go ahead. Um, i can say that one of the commanders i am speaking to tonight told me that hes disgusted with the world. He is tired of talking about this. And i think as richard said its a profound sense of betrayal, which it is. Just recently not even, you know, days ago the americans were doing joint patrols with the kurds and the turks along the border. And were reassuring the kurds that theyre not going to be left hanging in the wind. Richard, just to you, i was talking to matt bradley a little earlier about the extent to which syria continues to be a humanitarian disaster with People Living outside of their homes in refugee camps even after most of the end of the fighting. Now we are talking about a resettlement campaign. But there are more people now being displaced. Weve seen pictures of them walking with their backpacks on with what they can carry. What are we likely to see as this plays out . Where do these people even go . Were going to see arabs coming in, kurds going out. That is the only scenario that seems likely at this moment. Where do the kurds go . They have two options. They can either go south deeper into their own territory but that territory is getting smaller and smaller. And once that territory gets too small, they will have to go even further south into the hands of bashar al assad. Thats one option. It is an option that the kurds are already exploring. The other would be to go to where matt bradley is right now to head over into Iraqi Kurdistan. But although they are all kurdish brothers Iraqi Kurdistan does not want to take in millions of syrians. They would rather them stay here. So this campaign is designed to get the kurds to leave. They have assad to the south, and iraq on their other flack. Ing throughout the entire crisis in syria and before that in iraq. Richard engel. Rukmini callimachi is a Foreign Correspondent at the New York Times. While impeachment battles escalate in washington a new op sed in the New York Times declares, quote, this is a constitutional crisis. What happens next . It goes on to read, quote, now President Trump has announced he will not cooperate in any way with the impeachment inquiry, we no longer have just a crisis of the presidency. We have a breakdown in the fundamental structure in the government under the constitution. Joining me now is jeffrey rosen, the president and ceo of the National Constitution center. He is also professor of the George Washington University Law school. Hes somebody i bring on when we have to address these very, very serious issues. And, jeff, one of the things that i want to discuss with you is that it may be that we are heading down a road into a constitutional crisis. But youve argued that we are not fully there yet because there are certain things that have not yet been tested to allow us to officially say there is a crisis here. Thats exactly right, ali. And i do think that the New York Times jumped the gun. To have a constitutional crisis, i like the definitions of Keith Whiting ton, he says you need two possibilities. One is a crisis of fidelity to the law. If the president refused to obey an order by the Supreme Court to turn over documents that would absolutely be a constitutional crisis. But we dont have that yet. Or second a crisis of operations. If the president in congress were so much of loggerheads and there was no one to dissolve the dispute, that could be a crisis as well. But here the president said im not going to cooperate with the inquiry. But as Jennifer Rubin was saying the house still has all the facts that it may need to bring articles of impeachment. Those can move ahead. The constitutional procedures will continue. And therefore if a crisis is to materialize it would have to be with a future refusal to obey a court order. I dont think we are there yet. And when you say court order, do you mean a Supreme Court decision on something . Yes it. Would be like the nixon tapes case. Remember, during the nixon impeachment, Congress Said we want the tapes. The president said, no, im not going to turn them over. Lower courts disagreed and finally the Supreme Court said youve got to turn over the tapes. If at that moment nixon had said no i wont, that would have been a crisis, but he obeyed the court order. So far President Trump has not refused to obey the court order. Who will be the arbiter when that happens . One thinks that the court is the arbiter of these things but you are saying it is the refusal to listen to the court that would cause the crisis. I guess that is the crisis be in. Then what happens . Well, then you really have a situation of whos in charge. The court has neither purse nor a sword as Alexander Hamilton said which is why he said it was the least dangerous branch. So the court cant send out troops to get its orders enforced. It depends on the respect for the rule of law for the president himself. No president in American History has only deified a court order, although Andrew Jackson supposedly said that John Marshall has made his decision, let him enforce it, ultimately jackson complied it. Would be unprecedented if the president were to refuse to obey the court, hes got control over the troops. So far we havent quite reached that donnybrook. Jeffrey, if we get to the point that we do, we willing calling you and we always appreciate your analysis. Jeff rosen is the president and ceo of the National Constitution center and a professor of the George Washington University Law school. I want to take a quick look at markets. We have seen markets in the green for most of the day today for one particular reason. That is in addition to the tweets that the president has been sending out for the last two weeks having to do with the impeachment inquiry, he tweeted out today that he is meeting with the chinese and that he thinks that theres some level of confidence in a trade deal with the chinese. You can see earlier in the day marcus starting out in the red and almost immediately went up on that news and its been trading higher the whole time. The issue here is that the president would love a deal with china to end his trade war in order to take the attention off the impeachment discussions that weve been having for the last few days. The chinese also have some impetus to get a trade deal done. Things are hurting economically in china. The trade war has had an impact on the chinese economy. But more importantly as youve seen in the news in the last few days, china continues to face growing International Criticism over its treatment of the quest for democracy or continued democracy in hong kong. So there is some sense that both leaders that the premier of china and the president of the United States would find a trade deal handy at the moment. There is all three markets for you. All three are in the green today. This is not a major gain on major markets. Its a little bit of a gain so well keep you posted on whether anything of that develops. That wraps up the hour for me. I am going to see you at 4 00 p. M. Eastern tomorrow. You can now listen to this show on sirius xm, on the msnbc app and apple tv. And you can always find me on social media on twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, and linkedin. Thank you for watching. Deadline white house with Nicolle Wallace begins now. Hi, everyone. Its 4 00 in new york where we are covering the breaking news of the first arrest in a scandal that intersects an ominous ways for the president with the impeachment inquiry into Donald Trumps efforts to solicit ukrainian interference in the 2020 election. Today two associates of Rudy Giuliani the president s shadow secretary of state when it comes to u. S. ukrainian relations were indicted. The wall street journal broke the news and reports, quote, the men were charged with four counts including conspiracy, falsification of records and lying to the fec about their political donations. According to the indictment that outlines a conspiracy to funnel a russian donors money into u. S. Elections. A former Law Enforcement official pointed out to me, quote, it shows the architect of their shadow Foreign Policy, rudy, was in bed with two guys who were actively breaking fec law, soliciting foreign money for u. S. Campaigns, and lying about everything
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