Came back from asia. Hes said not a word and ducked every question. The allegations are very serious and should be taken very seriously. Ultimately, this is up to the voters in the state. We are here in washington, d. C. Meanwhile, a former coworker of Leigh Corfman, one of moores accusers, is backing up her story. She said she despised him. That he tried things with her. He tried to molest her. And she wanted to confront him. She was afraid. For the latest on the battle over roy moore, we have nbcs Maya Rodriguez following the events in birmingham, alabama, and also msnbcs Kelly Odonnell is at the white house for us. Good day to both of you ladies. To you first, maya. From birmingham, whats the sense youre getting from voters there . Reporter listen, alex, this is an electoral that has been divided over this year. You have one camp that believe these women and another camp who do not believe these women. Same thing with the voters and with the establishment here. I mean, you have National Republicans who have basically denounced moore but then you have state and local republicans that say theyre continuing to back moore. Weve also been talking to some of the religious leaders here. Theyre also divided. You had faith leaders that have come out in support of moore, those who have not. You mentioned earlier about vinton, he was the coworker of Leigh Corfman. They worked together more than a decade ago here in alabama. They worked in the Sales Department and, you know, he basically said, listen, they were talking about roy moore one day organically. It was something he said in the news back then. It came up. Corfman basically interrupted the conversation and shared her story. Take a listen to what he had to say. It matches. It matches. Why would she make up a story now when shes told the story a dozen years ago . There were no inconsistencies with what she told you . No. None. Tell me about it. There are no inconsistencies as well. The Washington Post, which i quite often disagree with, she got it deadon. I think theyre being honest brokers this time for sure. There is no doubt in your mind . No doubt in my mind. Reporter now, he was referring to the allegations that corfman made in that Washington Post article, basically saying she had inappropriate contact with moore when she was 14 years old. Now on the other side of this this weekend, you know, weve seen local republicans come out in support of moore. There was a Prayer Breakfast yesterday down in Madison County here in alabama. Take a listen to what they had to say about moore, basically saying theyre looking at the bigger picture. Not going to vote is a half a vote for the democrats, so please vote go vote. Get your family to vote. Vote for roy moore on december the 12th. We really need to win this election. The Supreme Court the Supreme Court could could go back the way it was if were not careful. Reporter now, you mentioned earlier, alex, that endorsement on al. Com. The endorsement for the democrat in this race, for doug jones. This is the front page of the birmingham news. Its heart of that media group. You can see above the nameplate is that editorial. It says stand for decency, reject roy moore. So, again, this race front and center here in alabama this weekend. Alex . All the way until december 12th. No doubt. Thanks so much, maya, for that. Lets go to the white house and nbcs Kelly Odonnell. Kelly, there are some new comments today on roy moore from Administration Officials but really no clarity on the president s position, right . Reporter nothing new from the president himself, except through his spokesperson or other top officials who were participating in the sunday shows today who were asked about this and yet it was not really their desire to comment further. So theyre in that kind of rock and a hard place, where they may want to speak more freely but they also dont want to say more than the president has publicly, trying to thread a needle of conveying support for the women who have come forward to sort of assign credibility to them without going as far as saying because of that roy moore should step aside or be out of the race. It is one of those things that has placed a very obvious awkwardness we have seen from the president through his spokesperson saying these a serious allegations and the people of alabama should make a decision and at the same time not going further than that. Today mark short, who is the director of legislative affairs for the white house, so hes always interfacing with those on capitol hill for the president s agenda. So the agenda, of course, matters very much with the outcome in alabama for the senate race with the delicate balance of republicans having not much control, just a narrow margin of control in the senate. Heres mark short taking these questions trying to find a way to answer without saying what many people would hope him to say just more plainly. Here is mark short. If he did not believe that the womens accusations were credible, he would be down campaigning for roy moore. He has not done that. He has concerns about the accusations. We think that the people of alabama will have a lot of wisdom in making the right decision come december 12th. That, again, and the right decision is . I think that the right decision will be what the people of alabama decide. You should certainly be able to infer by the fact that he has not gone down to support roy moore his discomfort in doing so. So he doesnt support roy moore . George, i think that the president has spoken on this. The white house has spoken on this. And i think that at this point we think he has been a public figure in alabama for decades and the people of alabama will make the decision. Reporter so the discomfort and the awkwardness was so evident as marc short tried to answer this without going further than the white house has officially. Thats one of the challenges for one of the senior staffers. To say more than the president creates news. To not say enough creates news. Its a rock and a hard place moment politically for them because, of course, alabama is a state that President Trump won easily. His voters are there. Many of them are roy moore supporters. Even though President Trump himself had supported luther strange, the appointed interim senator during the primary. So its been awkward, awkward, awkward. Alex. Yeah, that was awkward. In fact, marc misspoke because the president has not spoken about this, even though he said he has. So well, to be continued, no doubt, right . Reporter they refer that through the spokesperson. Thats one of the interpretations they make here, the president has spoken through his spokesperson, but the president has not in his own words on camera talked about this publicly. Youre right. Despite all the questions shouted his way. Kelly odonnell, thanks so much from the white house this sunday. Joining me now National Security reporter at the hill and jeremy peters, New York Times reporter and an msnbc contributor. Always good to have you both. Im going to start with you here, jeremy, because im looking at the article youve written. Particularly about the division that moores candidacy has created within the gop. What are the risks to having republicans remove moore from the race or expel him if he wins . Because, alex, it looks like another heavyhanded intervention by the republican establishment that the grassroots conservative movement so loathes, thats what this is all about. This has become a proxy fight between Mitch Mcconnell and Republican Leadership and the voters. Both conservative grassroots voters. Now, the reason youre not hearing President Trump or marc short or anyone else from the white house come out and say the president doesnt support roy moore, he urges him to get out of the race, is precisely because they are afraid of getting on the wrong side of the voters. Their voters. Roy moore and donald trump are strikingly similar candidates. They both represent kind of a big middle finger to the institutions of power in washington. To the Republican Party leadership. To the establishment, the political elites. And for trump to come out and say that he doesnt believe in a candidate like that, like roy moore who represents all of that antiestablishment angst, could be very detrimental to his image as an outsider. The president understands that. The president also understands, though, being, you know, the target of accusations of Improper Conduct with women that these things are deeply personal. And that he himself, who believes that he has done no wrong, isnt about to throw roy moore under the bus because as you heard marc short say, the president clearly doesnt believe roy moores accusers either. You know, i find it curious, though, jeremy, because im sort of waiting for a tweet where donald trump will say, you know, i didnt support roy moore during the primary, you know . As if to show that he maybe was on the right track with his candidate. But thats not going to be forthcoming. No, i dont think it will at all. And for the reasons i was just laying out. Because the political cost to getting on the wrong side of the voters who support these outsider insurgent candidates like roy moore, whose philosophy is burn everything down, take a blowtorch to washington, the cost is just too high. Can i just ask you quickly if youve heard from any republicans who say they prefer to have a democrat take the seat over roy moore . Yes, i have. The reason is they think they can win it back in 2020. There would be another election in two years and they believe they have a democrat in that seat for two years and that democrat would be conservative enough he would need to go along with some votes on republicans on tax reform and things line that. Yeah, they exist, but, you know, it just makes an already thin majority for republicans even thinner. Yeah. All right. Katie, lets take a listen to republican senator roy blunt of missouri on this topic. Here it is. I thought the story the womens story was more credible than his response. The alabama voters deserved a better choice. But theyre going to have to make that decision. They know roy moore a whole lot better than i do. Ive met him once. They watched him in a pretty controversy career 20 years. Well just have to wait and see what they do. Is it a sense, katie, that republicans feel cornered here, that there is nothing more they can do at this point . Senate republicans are basically out of options at this point. They can either hope that the democratic candidate wins and that he will reach across the aisle and theyll be able to work with him, or they can they can try to expel roy moore once he arrives. But as mentioned, obviously there is a huge political cost to that and there is some question about whether or not it would even be legal. There is a Supreme Court case that basically suggests that because the voters already knew about this behavior that is considered questionable that would be the basis for expelling him. The senate the senate cant then say, okay, well, were going to kick this guy out anyway. They knew when the voters knew when they cast their ballot. Now, republicans have tried a number of different ways to try to get somebody else on the ballot. They have tried to get another candidate, possibly Jeff Sessions, to run as a writein candidate. Sessions has declined that offer. They have tried to get the white house to coax moore to exit the race. The white house has not obviously publicly called down moore yet. And so at this point and theyve also reached out to the alabama Republican Party and said, can you guys declare this guy invalid . And basically get him off the ballot. And the alabama Republican Party is standing behind moore. So at this point the Senate Republicans are just going to have to wait and see what happens in this election. Okay. Im hoping to get to the topic of taxes. But before we do that, katie, i want to get your reaction from congressman denny heck, on the house Intel Committee. Making this statement on our program yesterday after a reported sevenhour interview with the cofounder of fusion gps, thats the founder of Christopher Steele dossier. Lets take a listen. This thing is moving. Its moving very fast and its not moving in a good direction for the president. People are going to jail. People are going to go to jail. In fact, when i said that, i came in for some criticism for it. But now, of course, weve seen several indictments. Im also going to go on record here today and say additional people are going to be indicted. Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is so much smoke you cant see the hand in front of your face. First to you, katie. How do you read this . House intelligence republicans and democrats have been on very different sides of the issue of whether or not they have seen evidence of wrongdoing. Democrats have been fairly vocal that, yes, we have seen evidence we have seen clear evidence of some kind of collusion in between americans and the russian government going into the 2016 election. Republicans have sort of said the opposite. Theyve said many of them that are talking to me have said, you know, look, we really havent seen anything yet. So i think at this point its going to be a question of what comes out in the public report that this committee is able to put together and how much they are able to say to the American Public in a declassified setting. And jeremy, look, congressman heck, hes obviously exposed to a lot of information, not to mention seven hours of testimony in this interview that we were talking about there. How do you interpret his comments . They were stunning remarks, alex. I couldnt believe it when i heard it. For a member of the Intel Committee thats an entirely separate matter. You have a lot of democrats spouting off saying they think trump should go to jail or his son should go to jail, but theyre not privy to the kind of information somebody on the Intel Committee was. I was surprised he went so far in his remarks. But what i think it means politically, actilex, this russ story moves to the front burner at a time that couldnt be worse for President Trump or the white house. You talk to voters and russia has been pretty much off their radar. Theyre not as obsessed with it as we in the media are. Theyre not following it as closely. Thats going to change if you start having indictments, especially multiple indictments and information that is coming out from witnesses who have been turned against the trump campaign. That is going to be a major impediment, an obstacle to President Trump as he try dies move on his policy agenda. Whether its tax cuts next year, its infrastructure, you know, all of these items that the president wants to get done. To have russia simmering in the as a major distraction is going to be a big problem. Yeah. All right. I do want to get to taxes and get you guys each a question here. Lets take a listen to republican senator Susan Collins of maine on that topic. There are provisions of the bill that i would like to see changed, and keeping that top rate for individuals where it is for people making more than 1 million is one change and i would also like to see the business taxes, which do noot nenoot need to be reduced in order to incentivize the creation of good jobs and higher wages in this country, but it does not need to be reduced all the way to 20 . So, katie, Susan Collins sounds like a swing voter there. Youre not quite sure based on what shes saying. How confident are republicans about getting this bill passed through the senate . Mitch mcconnell has a much more narrow majority to work with than Speaker Paul Ryan did in the house to get this bill to move. Theyre going to have to convince, you know, as many as potential half a dozen republican senators that this bill as written is a good idea or be able to address their concerns. Susan collins is just one of those. Jeff flake from arizona, bob corker from tennessee, john mccain, lisa murkowski, ron johnson has already come out in opposition to the bill as its currently written. These are the kinds of lawmakers that mcconnell is going to be sort of very carefully watching that the white house is going to be is going to be lobbying and trying to get to come on board with this proposal. These are the guys to watch. Speaking of senator collins, she also took issue with the repeal of the individual mandate, jeremy. But the white house budget director Mick Mulvaney offered some assurance today. Lets listen to what he said. If we can repeal part of obamacare as part of a tax bill and have a tax bill that is still a good tax bill that can pass, thats great. If it becomes an impediment to the best tax bill we can get, were willing to take it out. Its up to the senate and the white house to hammer out those details. How significant is this, jeremy . Its not going to be in final bill. I dont see a way thats possible, alex. On the one hand, it allows Senate Republicans to have a lot more money to work with as they try to, you know, shove a 1. 5 trillion tax cut into a pretty small envelope, but on the other hand, its dead in the house. There is there are not enough members of the house who think this would be a great idea. Theyre already working with a pretty thin margin over there to begin with. I think, though, if anything, the debate over the individual mandate is indicative of just how many hiccups there can be along the way and there will be as they try to pass this after thanksgiving. Ron johnson is another example of that. He said he doesnt like the way this is too heavy heavily weighted towards large corporations. Thats the thing, selling this bill which is already viewed pretty sceptically by American Voters, Something Like 16 of American Voters i saw believe their taxes would actually be cut by this in a poll that appeared last week. I mean, this is just going to be really hard to do. That doesnt moean they cant gt it done, but expect to see a lot more people drop off the bill and to come back on and for there to be a lot more drama and long nights on capitol hill in the weeks ahead. Okay. I look forward to speaking with both of you about it. Thank you so much. So what were they thinking . Treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin responding to that very question today about whats happening in this picture. His answer and what a republican congressman thinks about it next. That all Money Managers are pretty much the same. But while some push High Commission investment products, Fisher Investments avoids them. Some advisers have hidden and layered fees. Fisher investments never does. And while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, Fisher Investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. Maybe thats why most of our clients come from other Money Managers. Fisher investments. Clearly better money management. But having his parents over was enlightening. You dont like my lasagna . No, its good. Hmm. Oh. Huh. [ both laugh ] here, blow. Blow on it. You see it, right . Is there a draft in here . Im telling you, its so easy to get Home Insurance on progressive. Com. Progressive cant save you from becoming your parents. But we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. Lets go now to the russia investigation. A new insight into some of the tactics russian spies may have used. A new book makes the case that russia may have collected compromising information on President Trump decades ago. Heres what luke harding, the author of the new book collusion collusion, dirty money and how the russians helped donald trump win told me about his findings. In your writes you said research led you to ask whether or not moscow was mailing President Trump. What made you suspicious of that . I think so much of the story is in plain sight, saying, russia, if youre listening, find the 33,000 emails, which are not there. You also have a long history of engagement. Trump first visited moscow in the summer of 1987 and who invited him . The soviet government. They dont do that for everybody. Who organized his trial . A soviet agency that is basically the kgb. We can say without exaggerating that they have a huge file on trump. Theyre interested in his psychological weaknesses and exploiting that. Do you have a sense of any kind of information they were able to obtain from bugging, following, tailing, everything . Whats so fascinating, this is my favorite chapter of the book. A whole series of memos from that period from the head of the kgb to his guys, including in washington and new york, guys, you need to do more to cultivate americans. You are failing. Try hard. Use material incentive, in other words money. Be creative. They were sort of seeking to penetrate the american establishment. Politics for sure but also business. And the book, again, is collusion secret meetings, dirty money and how russia helped donald trump win. Coming up, what the treasury secretary had to say about this picture of him and his wife and a lot of dollar bills. Its time for the sleep number semiannual sale on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to your ideal comfort your sleep number setting. And snoring . Does your bed do that . Its the final days of our semiannual sale, where our c4 mattress with adjustable comfort on both sides is now only 1499. Save 300. Ends sunday. Visit sleepnumber. Com for a store near you. What comes to mind . Your next getaway . Connecting with family and friends . A big night out . Or maybe your everyday shopping. Whatever it is, aarp member advantages can help save you time and money along the way. So when you get there, you can enjoy it all the more. For less. 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Those whove had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. With less pain, i can do more with my family. Talk to your doctor today. See if lyrica can help. We are the driven. The dedicated. The overachievers. We know our best investment is in ourselves. We dont take no for an answer. We fight for what we want. Even for the things that were once a given. Going to college. Buying a home. And not being in debt for it for the rest of our lives. But were only as strong as our community. Who inspires and pushes us to go further than we could ever go alone. Sofi. Get there sooner. Welcome back, everyone. Im alex witt here at msnbc World Headquarters here in new york. As we approach the bottom of the hour, hes what were monitoring for you. Special counsel bob muellers investigation is reportedly moving closer to the west wing. Politico says muellers team is preparing to Interview White House Communications Director hope hicks, she a longtime member of President Trumps inner circle and widely referred to as the president s gate keeper. Lets bring in former dnc chair and former governor of vermont, howard dean. And also host of hugh hewitt host of the hugh hewitt show on the salem radio network. We got you. Gentlemen, im glad to have both of you with me today. Earlier today, i asked former federal prosecutor samuel beautifbule what he thinks will happen in that investigation. He said, look, the reality is i dont think bob muellers going on a fishing expedition. He realizes that hope hicks is in the inner circle. He wouldnt expect her to be forthcoming with something. He must have something he believes specifically she will need to answer or if she does not properly answer it, she could be breaking the law in a couple of different ways. Youre a lawyer, hugh. Do you agree with his analysis . I agree with the last part. The false statements act. If you make a false statement to special counsel or his representative or an fbi agent, youve committed a felony. Ive dealt with hope hicks a long time. Shes a straight shooter. Even though who dont like the president s policies agree that hope that has been a straight shooter. I believe shell answer truthful. I dont think youll see 18 usc 1001 against hope hicks. When you say youve known her for a long time, in what regards . Shes not that old. Shes not even 30 years old to my understanding. How long has she been with the Trump Organization and in what caps ki . Ive been dealing with hope six 2015 trying to successfully schedule 15 different interviews with President Trump. Since she has moved to the white house and has become the coms person ill occasionally say can i talk to this person . Shes been very professional. Everyone thinks that hope executes well her duty in terms of getting the interviews set up that the president wants to have done. I dont think shes within 1,000 miles of russia. Ill be surprised if that turns out to be the case. Okay. Howard, some legal experts a saying since muellers investigation has moved to trumps inner circle that it may be nearing its conclusion, what do you make of fact that we still dont know of any definitive evidence for collusion . Well, were getting pretty close with Donald Trumps emails back and forth with various russian oligarchs who were close to putin and Jared Kushners denial of that, which falls under lying to the fbi in this case congress. You know, i dont know hope hicks at all, but shes going to be in a tough spot for two reasons. The first is that i dont think bob mueller would interview her unless he had some corroborating evidence so hes going to know if she tries to shade the truth. Secondly, she knows very well what donald trump does to people who cross him. He has no loyalty whatsoever to people who are in trouble and throw him under the bus. So i think this is going to be a very important interview and i think thats why muellers doing it. Okay. We will see certainly what comes from that. Guys, i want to switch gears here and ask you both about the support for roy moore or lack thereof. Hugh, with regard to your support. Alabamas governor kay ivey saying she plans to vote for moore, even though she has no reason to doubt his accusers. The main reason saying that he could add conservative values in the senate. Where should the line be drawn between Political Goals and morality here. Writeinnicksabin. For 35 years, allegations are made, theyre true or false, sometimes theyre false and we find that out later. You have to go with the preponderance of the evidence standard as a layman or as a lawyer. I believe the accusers of judge moore. I could not vote for him based upon the Washington Post story and subsequent corroborating narratives between different individuals. It was the leigh story at the very beginning i thought was perfectly reported by the post. So i believe his accuser and therefore i would not vote for him pause i think Sexual Assault is a disqualifying charge when you believe there is a preponderance of the evidence for it. For the same reason i want al franken to resign. Thats the bottom line. Okay. You do want him to resign . You think that the two are one in the same . They are comparable, hugh . I think theyre both Sexual Assaults. Its an admission of guilt on the part of al franken, roy moore denies it, but i believe the evidence is against him. Howard, what about you . Your take . Well, i dont agree with the Sexual Assault. I think al franken was behaving like a 13yearold at a drinking party, but i dont think what he did was Sexual Assault. I think it was incredible and stupid frat boy, embarrassing, demeaning to women and i dont think that i think the senate will decide for itself whether he should resign. Think he was right to call for an ethics investigation of himself. What roy moore has been accused of doing is Sexual Assault. Now, here is the interesting thing about this, alabama is a state that has changed fairly significantly in the last 20 years. Most people up north dont know that. They have much better jobs than they did. A lot of the car manufacturers, the university of alabama, for example, has now become a very good university, not just because they have a great football team, but because theyre also terrific academically. Alabama is not the same state it was when George Wallace was running. This is going to be a really interesting election. Doug moore is a son of alabama. Two blue collar parents. Worked his way up. Very smart. Very principled. This is one of those cases where i think a lot of republicans who are moderate, thoughtful people in alabama, and there are a lot more than yankees believe, are going to do the right thing and turn the page on alabamas supposed image of a backward blahblahblah and all of that stuff. I think this is a great election. I do think were going to win. I think its going to be close. But i also think its a turning point for alabamaens and i think the yankees should stay out of it and let them make up their own mind how they want to do this. Can i ask you, howard, how you think the reaction to al franken versus that of roy moore should be different . Because al franken has admitted to wrongdoing, roy moore has not, despite the preponderance of women coming out more and more. Hugh saying he believes the story of Leigh Corfman and the corroboration in the Washington Post. Is there a different way you should deal with someone who says, i am guilty, versus someone who says, well, i didnt do it . I think there is some of that. Id agree with that. But i also think its the nature of the offense. Al franken did is not the same as groping minors. I mean, what he did was stupid and hes said so. And it was it was demeaning and it was terrible, but what roy moore did was a criminal offense. Alex . Yeah, hugh, i want you to respond. Ive got to jump in here. Its not just the picture. There is a narrative with al franken that says he harassed the victim over a period of two weeks on the uso tour, thant colluded an assault on stage in the course of this act rehearsal, bedevilling her for two weeks. The picture is corroborating evidence of a narrative. By the way, al franken hasnt admitted to that. Al franken denied that part. Oh, i think we remember this different. I just think one standard about proof theyre very different situations. Every situation is. But one standard, preponderance of the evidence about the allegation ought to apply and i think it convicts both al franken and roy moore. Hugh, can i ask you if you think the Republican Party will be tainted if roy moores elected . Not if they write in nick saban. I mean, i saw some College Republicans do the right thing and separate themselves from the alabama Republican Party. Howard has said let the alabamans decide and have the yankees stay out of it. Its going to affect the entire country. The evidence just seems overwhelming to me. People can deny it if they want. I cant. Its a preponderance of the evidence standard and its been met. So i dont think it will take the Republican Party if the Senate Republicans work with democrats to expel roy moore if hes elected next week. Okay. Gentlemen, i hope you can stay with me. Im going to take a quick break. I want to come back with you on the other side and speak to you about attorney general Jeff Sessions, his testimony and whether i do not recall is a good answer or defense. Well be right back. You too, unnecessary er visits. And hey, unmanaged depression, dont get too comfortable. Were talking to you, cost inefficiencies, and data without insights. And fragmented care, stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. Every single one of you is on our list. At optum, were partnering across the Health System to tackle its biggest challenges. At optum, were partnering across the Health System if yor crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough, it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. 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That is the attorney general of the United States Jeff Sessions there. Lets bring in msnbc contributor howard dean, former dnc chair, former governor of vermont, also msnbc host hugh hewitt and the host of the hugh hewitt show on the salem radio network. Hugh, youre a lawyer. Do you think Jeff Sessions finds himself in legal jeopardy because of this i do not recall, i do not recall, i do not recall . Not in the least. I watched most of attorney generals testimony. I think its been consistent with the great Public Servant hes been. I believe if you ask dr. Dean the first time we ever debated, i dont know if howard can remember what day and place and the circumstances were, but i wouldnt believe he was lying if he didnt remember it. I believe that was very believable testimony. Jeff sessions isnt going anywhere. He was at the Federalist Society gathering this week, very wellreceived along with don mcgahn, the white house council, justice gorsuch, all the legal stars, scott pruitt of this administration. I dont think its got any legal weight at all. How about you we are howard . Do you think its conceivable he doesnt remember so many details . I dont know, but i dont recall is a safe answer because hes the only one that knows if he recalls or not. If Jeff Sessions gets hung its going to be back somebody else has corroborated that, in fact, he did do all of these things. So then his technically i do not recall is not a lie. He didnt lie. He said i dont recall. Nobodys going to be able to prove if he did or not, but if he did meet with the russians and do these things, there are other charges he can go down on. I dont think hes out of clear. I think he may temporarily be out of the clear on whether he recalled or not. Lets not forget that this is the defense that john you aehrln and homelanderman made during watergate and they went to prison. Well see where this goes. Im not a lawyer, but i do not recall, i dont think you can hang somebody for that. Gentlemen, i want to take a look at a picture that went viral. This of treasurecy secretary Steve Mnuchin and his new live louise. There they are when his name was first appearing on the dollar bill as secretary of the treasury there. The reaction has been mixed. Well, it has erred more on one side than the other. Hugh, optically speaking, was this a really bad move . Well, its not a good picture and this is the unfortunate age in which we live. Every moment is recorded and every moment is photographed and anything can go viral at any time. Its hardly fair, but its the reality in which we live. So if you want to avoid going viral in a information way, youve got to be very careful about the optics of every single minute of every single moment. I just dont understand whats going to happen over the longer period of time how were going to ask everyone to serve in the government if every minute of every day is going to become gives fgif gifs for the twitter mill. Welcome to world of social media. I talk to my kids and say i never could have grown up in this era. Theres no way. I have a slightly different take . I would expect. I have a slightly different take on this. I dont think its the picture itself that is so bad, i think its in the context of all of the plane flights and the private plane and all that coined kind of stuff. Thats what makes it bad. So the secretary of the treasury holds up a sheet of dollar bills, thats what the secretary of the treasury is supposed to do. The problem is when you connect it to the private plane stories, you know, a gazillion dollars of wealth and the tax cuts that help him and not anybody else. This tells the story. It fits into the narrative. The picture itself all right, gentlemen, hugh hewitt, howard dean, good to see you both. You guys, thanks for joining me. Thanks, alex. Happy thanksgiving. Thank you. To you both. Coming up, what the top u. S. Nuclear commander said yesterday that is making pretty big headlines today. Join me in the next hour when the democrat who truced articles to impeach trump will be here to argue his case. Lden, flaky crust from scratch, tosses in handfuls of fresh fuji apples and sprinkles on just the right amount of brown sugar streusel. So that you can spend more time making special moments with your family. Marie callenders. Its time to savor. Afi sure had a lot on my mind. My 30year marriage. My 3month old business. Plus. What if this happened again . I was given warfarin in the hospital, but wondered, was this the best treatment for me . So i made a point to talk to my doctor. He told me about eliquis. Eliquis treats dvt and pe blood clots and reduces the risk of them happening again. 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It applies to small unit tactics. Im say, mr. President , its illegal. He is going to say, what would be legal . Joining me now is the former National Security council chief of staff and adviser to former Vice President joe biden. Brian, with a welcome to you, first question out of the gate, should military generals be left to decide whats an illegal military order . Will they, can they stand up to the president . This president , or any president . Well, the generals in the chain of command couldnt be sitting there by themselves. They would have their own senior advisers including lawyers to decide whether an order was legal or illegal. And in general, the scenario where Nuclear Weapons use might be contemplated, it wouldnt be the president sitting there alone with just the general. There would be the secretary of defense, there would be the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the chief of staff to the president. So its not a decision that any president would make in isolation. Brian, i just want to reiterate something i went through with an earlier guest. That is this would only be if america was launching the a Nuclear Attack initially. Not on a defensive posture, correct . If something was coming our way, you hear about that 15minute window of opportunity to launch something to deter that from hitting anywhere on our shores. Thats a totally different scenario, correct . In terms of the legal question, yes. Definitely. But the system is set up because of during the cold war, a fear of a bolt out of the blue attack from the soviet union, to have nearly instantaneous communications between the president and u. S. Strategic command and also with his senior advisers including the secretary of defense and joint chiefs. Its a system thats exercised regularly. Okay, is it time for america to review the authority for launching a Nuclear Weapon . To my understanding, its not been done for four decades. Well, i think the Senate Hearing the other day was a very useful conversation. And it was educational for the members of that committee who unlike those on the Armed Services committee may not be as familiar with the Nuclear Command and control system. And its certainly a healthy debate for our country to have at any time because of the colossal effects of any use of Nuclear Weapons if the president chose to use them. So i think in a democracy, its always useful to have this debate, and obviously, the context is the threat of escalation with north korea at the present time. You know, you testified, of course, in that Senate Hearing let by senator corker. Whats the most critical question you were asked . Well, i think the key question that i was focused on is the fact of if we were to initiate a conflict with north korea or any other state where Nuclear Weapons might be contemplated, theres no question that war in the constitutional sense, that is the framers design in the constitution says the congress has to authorize that kind of conflict. In the case where were being attacked, obviously, theres not time to convene the congress and have a vote, and the president has the authority to defend the country. If there is time, like before the iraq war, Congress Needs to vote and authorize the president to undertake such a conflict. Brian, you worked under president obama. Did anyone question this when he was in office . Why is this coming up only since President Trump took office . I dont recall that anyone questioned this during president obamas tenure. You heard senator murphy, i think, during the Foreign Relations Committee Hearing indicating that at least he and some of his colleagues have raised this because of concerns about this president. Okay. What about the l. A. Times editorial board, which is stressing the importance of the deterrent effect of Nuclear Weapons . Can legislative limits on their use undermine this . Well, thats the question that committee was asking, and its a hard one. And i think it can affect how other countries gauge our deterrent posture with regard to Nuclear Weapons. Theres a saying in the law, i think the Supreme Court justice who wrote it that hard cases make bad law. And if we were to change the law because of concerns about this president , because its a hard case in a sense, that would be, i think, an unfortunate precedent for the next president. In some respects, we need to trust the system that is there with the set of senior advisers around the president. I think the other thing to think about, at least with this president , is so far in the Foreign Policy and military context, hes not one to take responsibility for himself when things have gone wrong, say, for example, in the raid in yemen early in his tenure. He tried to put the blame on the generals. The idea hes going to wake up one morning and try to launch Nuclear Weapons without bringing other senior advisers into the decision, i think thats unlikely. You know, brian, ive had some pretty sobering conversations about some peoples assessments how close we are to nuclear conflict. Where do you stand on that . How far away do you think we are from that prospect . Yes, i have seen my former colleague john brennan say the possibility of war with north korea is 1 in 5 chance. Its pretty hard to quantify. Im not sure i would say its quite that high. But i think the risks of escalation and miscalculation are not minimal. And particularly with the rhetoric the president uses and what he says in his twitter account. The North Koreans are studying all that very closely. And they will have to gauge what he means by that. And the possibility that they will decide to strike out first because they think were about to attack, i think thats not negligible. Brian mckeon, another sobering conversation on the subject. Still ahead, the founder of women vote trump will be here to explain why women should still vote moore in alabama. i adopty on a fluke. And he totally has a superpower. Didnt know i was allergic to ibuprofen. And i had fallen asleep. scrappy barks amanda he was totally freaked out, digging and pawing at me. And when i woke up i realized that i was in anaphylaxis and went to the emergency room. I dont know what i would do if he wasnt there. Hes the best boy. vo through the subaru share the love event, weve helped the ascpa save nearly forty thousand animals so far. 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Ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, and trouble breathing. Stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of ketoacidosis or an allergic reaction. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include rash, swelling, and difficulty breathing or swallowing. Do not take jardiance if you are on dialysis or have severe kidney problems. Other side effects are sudden kidney problems, genital yeast infections, increased bad cholesterol, and urinary tract infections, which may be serious. Taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. What do you think . I think its time to think about jardiance. Ask your doctor about jardiance. And get to the heart of what matters. Im alex witt at msnbc headquarters. The divide in the south grows deeper. 23 days before alabamas ballot box verdict on r