Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20170518

John heilemann, senior Political Editor for the huffington post, sam stein, National Political correspondent for the Washington Post karen tim mull tea along with willie geist and Mike Barnicle in new york. So much has happened even in the past 24 hours, former fbi director Robert Mueller immediately takes over the Justice Departments investigation of russian interference in the 2016 campaign. He is now in charge of prosecutors and fbi agents in multiple field offices. Deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein made the appointment yesterday. Rosenstein is overseeing the doj Jeff Sessions recused himself. Nbc news was told the White House Office was informed about the appointment of the special counsel after the order was find. Stop right there. David ignatius, a lot of people have liked to say since january 20th, theres a new sheriff in town. When the white house is notified after the special counsel there really is a new sheriff in town. There really is a new sheriff in town. Lets just say it. Donald trump i believe day traded on a guys stellar reputation over 27 years, a lot of men or women fold under those circumstances and do what the president says. Rod rosenstein did not. He was not going to be anybodys patsy, and he made sure that no one i think he took the most dramatic step he could take to show that no one would ever say the Justice Department mishandled this investigation. He went from the seeming fall guy to the defender of our republic in this move. He insisted that the investigation of donald trump and any connections with russia must be independent. The charge is very specific from rosenstein, that mueller must ensure the public trust is served by independence. Hes speaking directly to the concerns raised by trumps attempt to fire fbi director comey, his meetings with comey to get him to drop the investigation of mike flynn and others. Rosenstein has really demonstrated our precept this is a government of laws in the end. The laws have to be enforced by strong men and women and we saw rosenstein take that step. It sounds melodramatic. Its not. Rod rosenstein, defender of our republic, ensurer of our system of checks and balances. Before this appointment was made yesterday, there were a lot of questions about which direction we were going to go, a president that demanded loyalty oathing from his fbi director, a president who then fired that fbi director to not kill an investigation. This could have gone anyway, most of them bad rosenstein proved churchill right again, that america always does the right thing after exhausting all other possibilities. Weve been through quite a number. Regardless of how this ends up and im one of these people that think probably theres going to be more in a coverup than the actual investigation at the end, however it ends up, i dont think you can overstate how importantis move was yesterday. A National Deep breath after a day in which the Financial Markets finally registered the degree of anxiety about this chaotic situation in washington, sharp, shafrp fall in the dow, and then this announcement, carefully guarded at 6 00 that there was going to be somebody new running it. Felt we suddenly were in a different space. The president reacted, quote, as i have stated many times, a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know, there was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this matter concluding quickly. In the meantime i will never stop fighting for the people and the issues that matter the most to the future of our country. That actually seems like a wellprepared statement. Well done. Kind of statement that would come from a normal president. Will you please stop trying to normalize donald trump . Reported in the New York Times that Jared Kushner, the soninlaw we pushed him to hire Michael Flynn who pushed him to fire james comey is now the same Jared Kushner who was supposed to be the great leveling wind that was telling donald trump when he was being measured to fight back and be more combative. Donald trump resisted those calls. At least in this one instance. Well see where we get to Going Forward. There was a big question weve been back and forth about this, you and i for the last week or so. The big question from the moment comey was fired, the big question was what rosenstein was going to do. Its an interesting question to know whether he would have ended up here had he not been treated the way he was treated in the days subsequent to comeys firing. At this point it was not only a matter of saving the constitutional republic, doing the right thing, making a very politically savvy move. In this polarized environment, very hard to find anyone who would find such bipartisan acceptance off the bat. He not only did the right thing, the smart thing politically, but also saved himself. If Rod Rosenstein had not done this, he would have been a character in history much different than the character he now is. Much different. Karen, we hear there are no more, quote, wise men in washington as they called them in the 60s and 70s. Sam is sitting right here. Im here. The appointment yesterday proved that to be wrong. Even republicans that came back pushing hard against this appointment said, but, we have complete and total confidence in the fbi director. Absolutely, who became fbi director practal the eve of 9 11. I think one of the things that is most crucial here and might be getting overlooked a bit is how broad of a mandate he has been given. He has explicitly been told that he is to not only look into the questions of russias meddling in the election, but also whether there has been obstruction of justice. At this point, no matter what donald trump says for all intents and purposes, given the news of the past week, he is under investigation. Sam stein, the one thing that i think republicans take comfort at that are supportive of donald trump who may have pushed back a little bit says, but mueller has nothing to prove. When i say nothing to prove, i mean nothing to prove. Its very unlikely hell go in the direction of lawrence walsh. You werent even born he was impacting the 1992 campaigns. I was born. But there is no that fear, that hes going to try to make his reputation on this investigation. Hell just go where the facts are. The only question, and i read conflicting accounts, is can he be fired by trump . I think the answer is yes. There is this cloud hanging over this appointment that i dont think this is something we should set aside. That would be fascinating. He does have a large purview, he has prosecutorial powers. I think this is good for trump and i might be in the minority. They have been besieged by process questions about this investigation, never ending questions that hint at, why are you dragging your heels, is there a coverup going on here . Presuming they have nothing to hide, a big presumption, they can say this thing is playing out under bob mueller. Direct your questions to him. Weve done what weve done. Its there and well wait to see what happens. Maybe, just maybe they can move on to the actual act of governance which they have not been able to do in some time now. I think certainly between now and the Midterm Election willie geist, next year, this is good for donald trump. This is good for the whougs. This is good certainly for the press, the Communications Team at the white house because pretty soon theres going to be another round of stories exploding. But pretty soon mueller is going to zip it up and hes going to go into his office and start this investigation and there arent going to be leaks. The other thing to point out to people, this is going to take a while. This isnt something thats going to be resolved next week. It may not be years, but it will certainly be months. This will carry us through the summer of the investigation. Well find out if we get information piecemeal, if mueller has to report to rosenstein. Mike barnicle, United States marine corps bronze star purple heart. S. Attorney, pros kated john gotti, Manuel Noriega and a guy pretty devoid of politics, brought on a week before 9 11, served his tenyear term and was asked by the Obama Administration to sign on for two more years after that. He doesnt bring politics. What adjectives, honorable, honest, integrity, tremendous loyalty by the people who work for him, led a marine rps rifle team in vietnam after graduating from princeton. The points raised by joe and sam stein especially apply here. There will be no leaks, i can tell you from personal experience with him, knowing him for over 30 years, there will be no leaks out of this investigation. There will just be the hardnosed plotting, timely, time consuming work of an investigation. This is a good time for this special counsel. There are new questions about who knew what and when about Michael Flynns ties to Foreign Governments. The New York Times reports this morning that flynn himself told the Transition Team weeks before the inauguration that he was under federal investigation for secretly working for turkey as a paid lobbyist. The paper cites two people familiar with the case who say he informed White House Counsel Don Mcgahn on january 4th. Two days laters his lawyers apparently had another conversation with transition lawyers. A source familiar with conversations two days after the election tells nbc news, Michael Flynn made it clear he wanted to be National Security adviser and Jared Kushner and ivanka trump made it clear president elect trump would certainly approve of that request to reward flynns loyalty. Despite this New York Times report that the Transition Team had been made aware of flynns ties to Foreign Governments, here is what the head of the Transition Team, mike pence, said two weeks later when the stories of flynns ties to turkey first broke. Michael flynn has filed with the department of justice as a Foreign Agent for making more than 500,000 as a lobbyist essentiallfor turkey. Your reaction to that, considering , doesnt that mean mr. Vice president even if he didnt lie to you about what the Russian Ambassador said or didnt say, that you would have had to fire him anyway . Well, let me say, hearing that story today was the first i heard of it. I fully support the decision that President Trump may ask for general flynns resignation. Was the president aware that Michael Flynn was acting as a Foreign Agent when he appointed him to be the National Security adviser . I dont believe that that was known. I would refer you to general flynn and to the department of justice in terms of the filing that had been made. Had the president have known that, would he have known that . I dont know. Thats a hypothetical im not prepared to ask. I dont know what he discussed. I dont know any of that. The second one was less surprisi surprising. I guess we just have to say here that mike pence, the Vice President of the United States was in charge of the Transition Team and donald trump wasnt doing end runs around mike pence. Questions will be made about mike pence expressing ignorance about when the Transition Team is told this, him not knowing. They obviously knew, and the flynn episode gets even worse with the story were going to report pretty soon about this guy actually taking money to change u. S. Policy regarding turkey. Aspects of the flynn story that boggle the mind are how much was known and not acted upon by people. We now realize flynn himself who has been cast as the villain in most of this is the one who informed the Transition Team, hey, ive got this issue with turkey you need to be aware of. Then you have pengs seemingly acting oblivious. The claim that the reason he was fired was he lied to mike pence seems more and more difficult to imagine. We never ask what did donald trump the president know. Unfortunately a trend is developing with mike pence who is part of the process to have this strategy to get rid of comey. Hes in all the meetings. He knows that donald trump has already made the decision to fire him, and then mike pence goes to capitol hill and seven times, seven times repeats what turns out to be a lie which he had every reason to know based on the fact pattern in front of us, that it was a lie. Same here. He headed the Transition Team and he was the active member of the Transition Team. Donald trump this isnt one of those things because we were communicating with everybody at at time. Donald trump wasnt just putting him there in name only. He was running the Transition Team. Mike pence, by the way, is also present in the oval office in mid february, the day after mike flynn is fired when donald trump says to james comey id like to have a word with you in private. Which he never does. Thats the greatest lapse of common sense at a critical moment for both the attorney general and the Vice President , to see the president about to do something that is on its face improper and not to raise a warning sign. Bad for pence either way. Either he knew and is lying or didnt know and is wildly incompetent. Either way, not a great story for him. I will say it seems the import of the story, Michael Flynns lawyer came out a couple months ago and said Michael Flynn has a story to tell. Hes now starting to tell it. If this is the thing hes leaking and there are other things he still is holding to offer in exchange for immunity, this means this isnt the worst of it. The biggest question for me, there are so many red flagtion around Michael Flynn, not just during the transition but prior to them with obama warning trump tonight hire the guy. Yet they stuck by him through all of this. The reason for that is that he has a bond with the president. Really . Im telling you what we were told, that he calms the president down, theyre buddies, they have a bond thats really tight and he makes the president feel comfortable. I can tell you firsthand everybody on that Transition Team spoke of Michael Flynn as if he were Dwight Eisenhower on june 6th, 1944. He was the greatest guy, he was a calming influence. That was the one selection that donald trump and Jared Kushner would never be moved off of. They moved off of giuliani as secretary of state. There were efforts to move him off flynn. Wouldnt listen. I can tell you there were scores of people saying mr. President , do not appoint this man. Its the most important position, hes wildly unstable, it would be a terrible mistake. He and Jared Kushner heard that repeatedly every day and didnt give a damn. They were going to appoint this guy, david, no matter what. And why . Its because mike flynn was the first person from the Foreign Policy world to take donald trump seriously and give him the legitimacy that he craved and that, as we see today, he feels so desperately he lacks. Mike barnicle and willie geist, you can say the same thing about the attorney general who has found himself in one me after another. He is there simply because he was the first senator to come out and support donald trump. Its loyalty above all else to donald trump, right . When he asked james comey for his loyalty, we saw what eventually happened to comey. Theres a story well get into that shows why this decision to make flynn the nsa despite what they knew about his ties to turkey had real world impact, and that flynn talked to susan rice ten days before the inauguration. They talked about going into raqqa with the kurds. Flynn said hold off a second. Why . Perhaps because the turkish government didnt like the idea of the United States working with the kurds. This had real impact on american policy. The flynn appointment in the wake of the torrent of criticism for him even before the president is inaugurated is understandable. When you look back at the old clips of general flynn alongside then candidate trump, when you see general flynn at the convention shouting lock her up in unison with the crowd. It would be interesting to find out what Chris Christie thought of general flynn prior in his initial, just brief appointment as head of a transition committee. That would be interesting. Well, i dont think, if my memory serves me well, i dont think Chris Christie was anymore of a fan of general flynn than most everybody else. He had real concerns for t right reasons. Its interesting, also, well get to it with general flynn, but again, he gets paid 500,000 and actually influences policy on where u. S. Coalition forces attack so as not to offend the turks. On every level it was an appointment that you just that flies in the face of any type of logic which makes you wonder if they had some motives. I was going to say, i also wonder and well talk about it later. I also wonder if taking payment of 500,000 from a Foreign Government and then directly influencing using your position to directly influence u. S. Policy, i wonder if that runs him afoul of another law. I would suspect it might. Still to come. Is there a kernel of truth in every joke. Well talk about houmech mccart this wasnt a joke. If it were a joke, paul ryan wouldnt have said were family he here, nobody repeats it. Kevin mccarthy wouldnt say after the joke, im deadly serious. I thought it was a joke. He said guys, im deadly serious. They also denied it happened. Thats what we call a tease. We dont tell the whole story. We have just about everybody youd want to hear from on a morning like this. Well speak with the chairman of the Armed Services committee, senator john mccain, Susan Collins, senator chris murphy from the government oversight committee, congressman Elijah Cummings and one of the president s fiercist critics on capitol hill, congresswoman Maxine Waters. I think we have mr. Happy here this morning. Jeff is going to be here. Hes not mr. Happy. First, here is bill karins tracking more Severe Weather out there. Bill, what have you got . Unfortunately looks like tornadoes will make headlines later today. 27 Million People at risk today, one of the rare days where we get a high risk of Severe Weather and tornadoes. That means were pretty much guaranteeing a tornado outbreak will take place. Area of greatest concern is here in kansas and oklahoma. Wichita is the biggest city at risk later this afternoon. Tomorrow, almost the same areas, 18 million more people at risk from kansas city down to the dallasft. Worth area. We continue a very active week of severe storms. By far, today is the most dangerous. How about the heat pumping up the east coast. Yesterday was hot. Today it will be even hotter. 97 in tampa, should break your record. Richmond near record highs at 92. Up and down the i95 corridor, boston, new york, philly, d. C. All expecting a High Temperature today of 93 degrees which would break the record in central park. Logan airport should break their record high. Close in philly, d. C. Probably a little shorted of that. We crash back towards spring this weekend. Boston in the 60s, d. C. Dropping into the 70s. Today is the peak of our heat wave, our mini may heat wave. How about this . Colorado, idaho, montana, this is what it looks like in bozeman, montana. Denver, youre under a winter storm watch. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Im dr. Kelsey mcneely and some day you might be calling me an energy farmer. Energy lives here. This and its also a story about people. And while we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country we never forget. That your business is our business. The United States postal service. Priority you youre going to be hanging out in here. So if you need anything, text me. Do you play . 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They give awards for being hot and 100 years old . Well take 2 [ laughing ] xfinity x1 gives you exclusive access to the best of the Billboard Music awards just by using your voice. The Billboard Music awards. Sunday, may 21st eight seven central only on abc. T question is, as it has been all week, where are the republicans . Well, theyre hiding away from the cameras. We reached out to 20 republican senators and representatives to appear on this broadcast. All declined our invitation. We tried to get republicans on tonight, had a few lined up but they could not make it. Ive called countless senators offices. For one reason or another, they said they couldnt come out and talk with us. There are not republicans willing to go on camera tonight. On fox news cant get republicans to come on. Thats like eve not being able to book a kardashian. The Washington Post reports the House Majority leader Kevin Mccarthy said last year then candidate donald trump could be receiving payments from russian president Vladimir Putin according to an audio recording obtained by the post from june of last year, mccarthy said to his fellow gop leaders, quote, theres two people i think putin pays, rohrabacher and trump, swear to god. Paul ryan then says, this is an off the record, no leaks, right . Its worth noting that they report spokes people for both ryan and mccarthy denied the exchange taking place until being told there was a recording. Mccarthy pushed back on the report noting the transcript of the audio repeatedly notes lauger. If you listen to it, everybody is laughing. You know its a bad attempt at a joke. Thats all there is to it. No one leaves it to be true. Do you still have confidence in the president . 100 president. This was an attempt at rumor gone wrong. The Washington Post tried to contort this into breaking news. A spokesman for ryan stated, quote, this entire yearold exchange was clearly an attempt at humor. No one believed the majority leader was asserting that donald trump or any of our members were being paid by the russians. Youve got to put it in context. Im all for people telling jokes that go terribly awry. I do it every day. Its what you do. In this case you look at the facts surrounding it, just like you would with anything. First of all interesting joke do make. Interesting joke to make when theres an investigation going on. Secondly they denied it. It reveals something. Then when they denied it and said it didnt exist. Why would you like about a joke . And then when confronted with it they pulled back from their lie about the joke, and in the transcript after some laughter can be heard, as the Washington Post reports, Kevin Mccarthy said no, no, swear to god. Theres laughter and theres nervous laughter. The other thing about the context of this is what was going on in the world, in their world at that moment. A number of the leaders were coming directly from a meeting with the ukrainiian prime minister. Word that the dnc servers had been hacked just came out. In fact, there was speculation in the tape that what they were going after was research against donald trump. That is when the conversation turns to russia. At several points in this, we have the speaker of the josing weve got to keep this in the family, haha. Its kind of thing that, if there are a screenplay written with this in it, it would be rejected. And also i think it speaks to the fact that this tape is in the possession of tthe Washington Post suggests that somebody in that room didnt think it was a joke. Willie geist, you look at the totality surrounding the events around it. Theyre talking the ukrainian leaders. This was also about the time that republicans were starting to talk about strip iping a pla in their platform in support of ukraine as a favor to the russians. Thats certainly something the ukrainian leaders had to be made aware of and something they obviously discussed in that meeting. You have to take yourself back to the time, summer, june of 2016, about a year ago when the jokes were made. Listening to the tape and reviewing the transcript, i think they were joking in the room, but against a serious backdrop of conversations about what was happening with donald trump, and the fact that that was even a possibility, that that was on the table, tells you something about the context within which the joke was made i think. David . I dont know whether it was a joke or not. The point to me this morning is we now have a special counsel, Robert Mueller who will investigate this. Hell talk to Kevin Mccarthy, talk to paul ryan. Hell reconstruct exactly what they knew when they had this conversation. This is one of the things hes going to want to know the answer to. Why were they talking about somebody paying donald trump. Where did that come from . Dont have to decide whether it was a joke because theres a special counsel whose job it is to do that. Rohrabacher might as well wear the gold chain. You know what else makes this less funny to investigators is this, quote, joke, came out the same day that a bank in russia that Vladimir Putin was on the board with helped donald trump get money for one of his hotels. I would say if its humor, its gallows humor. True. Kevin mccarthy was the person who famously blurted out that the benghazi investigation was going on because it drove Hillary Clintons poll numbers down. He has an unfortunate tendency to blurt out the truth sometimes in politically unfortunate ways. You guys dont get humor. Thanks a lot, sam. Millennial. Coming up, senator chris murphy says if past is prologue, watch out. Why hes worried attorney general Jeff Sessions wont give the special counsel the resources and latitude he needs. He joins the conversation next on morning joe. Tech when your windshield trust safelite autoglass. Our exclusive trueseal Technology Means a strong, reliable bond. At safelite, we stand behind our work. Because the ones you love, sit behind it. parents wsper jingle safelite repair, safelite replace. Only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. They release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. Tylenol® mobility is very important to me. Thats why i use e trade mobile. Its on all my mobile devices, so it suits my mobile lifestyle. And it keeps my investments fully mobile. Even when im on the move. Sign up at etrade. Com and get up to six hundred dollars. Whats the story behind Green Mountain coffee and fair trade . Lets take a flight to colombia. This is boris calvo. Boris grows mindblowing coffee. And because we pay him a fair price, he improves his farm and invest in his community to make even better coffee. All for a smoother tasting cup. Green mountain coffee. As a lawyer he may one day end up in the highest ranks of judicial power, many manage multilateral law firms, advocate that those in need or set groundbreaking precedent. In the end it is not only what we do but how we do it. As the saying goes, if you have integrity, there is nothing else that matters. If you dont have integrity, there is nothing else that matters. That was newly appointed special counsel over the russia investigation Robert Mueller back in 2013. Joining us now, member of the Foreign Relations committee, democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut. Great to have you here onset in washington. Good morning. There are concerns perhaps that he might not be able to get the latitude to do his job. Do you think mueller will have a problem with that . I think you have to think about whether past is prologue. To the extent he doesnt today have all the jurisdiction he needs and he has to go back to sessiontion or trump, then you should be worried. Everything we know about his portfolio thus far gives us confidence he may be able to get to where the facts lead him. He exists on both sides of the ledger. Hes going to be able to conduct the investigation and have prosecutorial power. Right now we understand he has the latitude necessary to start this investigation. The question is, if he starts to find new leads, if he starts to want to have a more expansive portfolio and has to go back to sessions or rosenstein to get that, whether thats going to be run up the chain doesnt that have to be proforma for those two gentlemen that have recused themselves from this investation . Anything more than a rubber stamp from them cause a constitutional crisis. I dont mean to overstate it, but he has been given a blank check here for the most part, has he not . Well, i dont know that he has because i think its unclear to what extent Jeff Sessions has actually recused himself. We know he was involved in the decision to fire james comey. We believe comecomeys investigation which, by the way, caused a crisis, part of a crisis that led to what happened yesterday. The good news here is there has been a question as to who Deputy Attorney general rosenstein is and whether he has the rule of law in his heart, he certainly answered a big piece of that question. To the extent you have questions about whether he would let the facts lead where they may, at least from what we know yesterday, he seems to understand the need to ultimately get to the truth. Senator Mike Barnicle is in new york because it is sunny and hell be in central park in a couple hours with the sunglasses on. He has a question for you now. My god. Senator, your former colleague, senator lieberman sat down yesterday apparently and was one of four interviewed for potentially heading the fbi Going Forward. Your thoughts on that possibility occurring . I hold senator liebermans seat. Hes no pushover as both parties know. Hes been a pain in the butt to both republicans and democrats during his time in a out of the senate. I think the qstion is whether you want someone with a political pedigree or someone that has a Law Enforcement pedigree. I think theres a lot of people on both sides of the aisle looking for someone that doesnt come from the political realm, somebody frankly in the tradition of mueller who has a real history in enforcing the law, not somebody who spent time in the partisan realm. So i know joe. He certainly is somebody who can stand up to folks in positions of high power, but ultimately, a lot of us may like to see rather someone who comes from Law Enforcement. Senator, how do you figure its going to work now Going Forward. Youve got three Senate Committees at least, two house committees at least who all still want in on this trumprussia action. How do the lines get drawn so you guys get to do your work in terms of investigation without getting in the way of where the Mueller Probe might lead . Ive been a skeptic from the beginning about the capacity of the senate and house investigations, one because theyve been operating in political fits and starts. Those two committees are not investigative by nature. Theyre gathering gleaned by others. From the start its been the fbi that has had primacy on this. I hope the fbi and mueller takes the lead here, and to the extent there are gaps that need to be filled in, perhaps the Senate Committees can do that. I never thoughthe Senate Committees were going to ultimately be able to get to the truth on their own. Let me ask you a specific question now. Is it still important for comey to go forward and testify in public . That might pose some conflicts in terms of what director mueller is going to be doing Going Forward . I think we have to understand theres a lot of important questions that are separate and aside from what mueller is going to be looking into. We need to understand what happened with respect to the conversations between donald trump and jim comey. Only comey can tell us that. Absolutely comey has to testify in open session because we need to know whether there was this loyalty pledge, whether he was asked to move away from the flynn investigation. Those are constitutional questions why do we need to know that when we have a special counsel who needs to know that . Its a question of whats under the special counsels purview, right . If hes looking into the connections between the trump administration, the Trump Campaign and russia. Thats a different set of questions than abuse of power or obstruction of justice. Maybe that lies under his purview. We have a separate obligation of trying to get to the bottom of whether a law has been violated. We may need to move faster isnt there an argument that this almost lets the republicans off the hook . They can say whenever theyre pressed on any of these issues, well, theres a special counsel . I think to some extent they can try that. We, again, have a separate constitutional responsibility to fi out if the chief executive of thisountry violated the law. So we can still try to get to the bottom of that story while mueller is trying to unwind a potential criminal case against the president or some of his aides. Those two things can happen simultaneously. Certainly the fbi investigation ultimately will inform the decision we have to make. Ive had a lot, mika, a lot of advice for republicans which none of them asked for. I actually in this case would say that that would be a wonderful thing to say. There is an investigation going on, a special counsel has been appointed by the administration and you need to direct your questions to him. Not only would that be the politically wise thing to do, i think it would also be proper. And it allows them to constantly say that, pivot, move back to policy. Does this put this, David Ignatius, in a box enough for the president to go on this makeorbreak trip and actually have the potential of pulling something off without a major gaff, flub or misstep . Well see if the rain cloud of these investigations and scandals follows him across the atlantic. To some extent it will. Im sure journalists will keep asking questions. They worked pretty hard to set this trip up with some real deliverables when the president goes to saudi arabia. He, i believe, will be presented with a series of pretty interesting proposals, what theyre calling nato for the arab gulf states, to ha a common defense platform. More important, an agreement to make it illegal for People Living in these countries to give money to extremist groups. For years weve been saying why does saudis and bahrain anies give money to al qaeda and extremists . If what the white house says is coming really happens, it will be become illegal for private citizens the white house said from the very beginning, you want our help, saudi arabia, you get our help when you outlaw what youve been doing for the past 30 years. Exactly, joe. Theyre getting the kind of commitment they asked for. I think that will play well. I think theyve worked hard to advance the trip, but the president is going to come back to the same set of issues no matter how good this trip goes. Nixon would go away, hed be president of the world. He did that great. Theyd come back and there was stillwater gate. Willie geist, theres a question of whether donald trump even wants to go on this trip. A lot of white house reporters saying hes dreading it. Lets hope not for the sake of this country. Its important. He hasnt been out of the country yet. Its important he gets that started. I wanted to ask senator murphy one more question. Obviously the questions around russia and the white house are critically important. It has been allconsuming. I have a friend who runs a Vets Organization says hes had his meeting canceled and agenda pushed to the back burner because people are obsessed and focused on this. To what extent has is impeded ur ality and other senators ability to g other things done in washington right now . Speaking of the democratic caucus, we really havent been part of the major policy discussions in the senate about tax reform or health care reform. My worry, frankly, this has been cloud cover for a process that has continued specifically on the issue of repealing the Affordable Care act. Republicans have continued to meet to try to present a bill before the house that strips Health Care Away from 24 million americans. Thats been able to happen without a lot of public questions being asked because of all this concern and unfolding story about russia. Theres really impactful things happening to my constituents that arent getting the coverage they deserve. My worry is a week from now we get a bill dropped on the senate that nobody has talked about because the focus has been elsewhere. Were going to have to shift some of this back to domestic policy because that agenda i dont think has stopped while this story has moved very quickly in the last few days. Senator chris murphy, thank you very much for coming in. Coming up, Time Magazine is giving the white house a fresh coat of paint, red paint. Well reveal their new cover and theyre not holding back. Also ahead, senator john mccain guarantees another shoe will drop with donald trump. The outspoken Arizona Republican joins the discussion just ahead. Hey, ive got the trend analysis. Hey. Hi. Hi. You guys going to the Company Picnic this weekend . 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Yeah. Everybody two seconds dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance. Through the Tuition Assistance program, every day mcdonalds helps more people go to college. Its part of our commitment to being americas best first job. So, the new man of the hour is Robert Mueller, right, who actually ran the fbi before comey. And he had been enjoying himself in private law practice. I can only imagine sitting at home, watching all this comey stuff saying, man, i am glad i am not part of this anymore. Hello . Yeah. Oh, for god sake. Would it help if i said im too old for this [ bleep ] . Okay. See you in an hour. Bye. Were just getng started here on another big news morning. Ahead, chairman of the Armed Services committee, senator john mccain, senator Susan Collins, congressman Elijah Cummings, congresswoman Maxine Waters, Stephen Hadley is here on set, host of hardball chris matthe matthews, and Andrea Mitchell all join the discussion. Morning joe rolls on from washington straight after this. It starts a chain reaction. Thats heard throughout the connected business world. At t Network Security helps protect business, from the largest Financial Markets to the smallest transactions, by sensing cyberattacks in near real time and automatically deploying countermeasures. Keeping the world of business connected and protected. Thats the power of and. Well, what are you doing o take care otomorrow 10am . But. Staff meeting. 3 45 . Tai chi. 6 30 . Sams baseball practice. You are busy. Wouldnt it be great if you had investments that worked as hard as you do . Yeah. Introducing essential portfolios the automated investing solution. This and its also a story about people. And while we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country we never forget. That your business is our business. The United States postal service. Priority you youre going to be hanging out in here. So if you need anything, text me. Do you play . Use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before. You got next . Chase. Helping you master whats now and whats next. A mihappbirthday, sweee oh, millies. Trick or tre were so glad to have you here. What if we treated great female scientists like they were stars . Yasss queen what if millie dresselhaus, the first woman to win the National Medal of science in engineering, were as famous as any celebrity . [millie dresselhaus was seen having lunch today. ] [. Rumors of the new discovery. ] what if we lived in a world like that . crowd applauding we know a place thats already working on it. The president was in connecticut today, to give a commencement speech at the u. S. Coast guard academy. For once he didnt make it about himself. To his credit he put all that aside to place the focus on where it should be, the young graduates on their special day. Look at the way ive been treated lately. Especially by the media. Thank you, everybody. Great honor. Good luck. Eny your life. Enjoy your life. Was that a commencement speech or did he just break up with them . Enjoy your life. Very moving. Welcome back to churchillian. It really was. Its hard to joke at this point on this thursday, may 18th. With us here in washington, we have columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, david ignati suchlt. Cohost of the circus on showtime, jon heilman. And happy jeffrey goldberg, hes like an emoji. A happy one. And former adviser to president george w. Bush, and Mike Barnicle in new york. Tell us about the man stepping in now and taking charge of this investigation. First of all, everyone on the set in washington, enjoy your life, please. Okay, thank you. Bob mueller is the definition of honesty, integrity, character, discipline. He instills great loyalty in everyone who has ever worked for him and who will ever work for him. He was a Second Lieutenant in the marine corps in vietnam. Where i first met him in 1983, 84, san francisco, washington, d. C. Where he dropped down from the u. S. Attorneys positioto run the homicide unit in washington out of the u. S. Attorneys office. There will be no leaks under mr. Muellers investigation. I can tell you that from firsthand knowledge. No leaks. It will be plodding work that he will do. Disciplined work that he can do. You could not have come up with a better candidate than Robert Mueller. He immediately takes over the Justice Departments investigation of russian interference in the 2016 campaign. Now in charge of prosecutors and fbi agents in multiple field offices. Deputy attorney general Rob Rosenstein made the appointment yesterday, overseeing the dojs investigation after attorney general Jeff Sessions recused himself. Justice Department Spokesperson told nbc news the White House Counsels Office was informed of the appointment of a special counsel after the order was signed. President trump reacted in a statement reading, in part, quote, as i have stated many times, a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know, there was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this matter concluding quickly. Meantime, i will never stop fighting for the people and the issues that matter most to the future of our country. Jeffrey, how iortant is this move . Really imrtant. Talk about the significance. Well, you know, its hard to believe were going to be doing this for the next, what is it, 1400 days . Mueller, ally of jim comey, Rod Rosenstein, proving his independence. His reputation was on the bubble a little bit. Right. Not on the bubble anymore. No, it is not. No, its not. As bold a move as he could make to push back on being set up, trump tried to make him his patsy. To put it in sort of blunt this is im not going to be your sucker anymore and im going to go out and find the guy who is, to use this term, unimpeachable, his reputation. Very few people with that reputation like mueller in washington right now. Were in it. Whether theres still a real thing here, were in the sort of, is it a crime or a coverup situation . Steven hadley, does this bring order to this situation, at least shortterm order to the situation so the president and his team can actually, if they so choose, focus on important trips abroad . Yes and no. It certainly brings order to it and regular order to it. Mueller is a regular order guy. He is a by the book kind of guy. Very reassuring to the public. Very reassuring to public rks, democrats. Were kind of back in regular and sensible order in dealing with the investigation. But this is going to be a distraction that is going to go on and on and on. Yeah. And that is the cost. It is a distraction from an agen agenda that the American People elected donald trump to pursue. Regular order but ongoing distraction. I was talking to somebody in the white house yesterday who said the foreign trip will take the focus away from this. No, these things follow you wherever you go. This is it. These are the first question force a long time. The foreign trip is crucial, though, that the point. I dont understand the foreign trip. Thats a separate subject. Im not sure why theyre doing this. You could fly to the vatican, jerusalem, intercede with god any way you want. The questions in the press pool so cynical. No. I understand the foreign trip. Washingtonian. Crush yourself when you say that. Stop. That will be unusual. That would be unusual. All right, you two. Lets talk about the personal distraction of this, too. If youre in the white house, if you work closely with donald trump, if youve been involved in any of these decisions, if you were involved in his president ial campaign, the only prudent thing to do right now order up. Is to seek legal counsel. Nobody is being glib here. I tweeted it yesterday afternoon. People thought i was being glib or trying to stick it to him. No. They need to get lal counsel. That complicates that clouds the mind a bit, doesnt it . Anybody who has covered washington for any period of time in past administrations knows people, sources, friends that have dealt with this situation and incurred ruinous legal bills, embroiled in these things for years. Republican, democrat alike, the Reagan Administration had two independent counsels. Bill clinton had one that last aid large part of his administration. George w. Bush had one. Everybody gets touched by this. And it becomes youre in legal jeopardy, political jeopardy, career jeopardy. And it become ace huge distraction Going Forward. In the short run, i think the point you made earlier is right. In the short run, mueller is a good thing for the trump administration. It allows them to focus on the agenda. In the long run, could be terrible. Mueller, beyond Everything Else everybody said here about being unimpeachable, being fearless, having nothing to prove, having nothing to lose. Most of all, he is a career prosecutor, focused on making cases. That is what he has done his whole life. And that is a huge threat to donald trump. So you have mueller. And who is standing next to mueller . Rod rosenstein. A guy who appointed mueller. Suddenly the guy that they set up as the fall guy, as the patsy, suddenly he and mueller together his stellar reputation is speaking for himself. Frightening front for donald trump. Number of layers, especially around general flynn. Willie geist, take it. Joe in a time when there are so many questions about the president trying to exercise undue influence in the people investigating him, like jim comey, this will not be something that mueller will be susceptible to. Roberto gonzalez and andy card about that famous scene at the bedside of attorney general John Ashcroft when they try to get him to sign off on wireless tapping, it was comey and mueller who intervened at that point. Lets talk about who knew what and when about general Michael Flynns ties to Foreign Governments. Flynn himself told the Transition Team weeks before the inauguration he was under federal investigation for secretly working for turkey as a paid lobbyist. The paper cites two people familiar with the case, saying he informed White House Counsel Don Mcgahn. A source familiar with conversations two days after the election tells nbc news that Michael Flynn made it clear he wanted to be National Security adviser and Jared Kushner and ivanka trump made it clear that president elect trump certainly would approve that request to reward flynns loyalty. The Transition Team had been made aware of flynns ties to Foreign Governments. Here is what the head of the trump Transition Team, now Vice President mike pence, said weeks later when flynns ties to turkey were made public. Michael flynn has filed with the department of justice as a Foreign Agent, for making more than 500,000 as a lobbyist essentially for turkey. Your reaction to that, considering that, doesnt that mean, mr. Vice president , even if he didnt lie to you about what the Russian Ambassador said or didnt say, that you would have had to fire him anyway . Let me say hearing that story today was the first i heard of it. And i fully support the decision that President Trump made to ask for general flynns resignation. Youre disappointed by the story . First i heard of it. It is an affirmation of the president s decision to ask general flynn to resign. So, what were the implications of having Michael Flynn and his ties to turkey near the white house . Mcclatchey is raising the question. Ten days before donald trump was sworn in as president , flynn reportedly told susan rice to hold off on a plan for u. S. Forces to retake isis capital of raqqa. Working nand hand with syrian forces, which turkey opposed. Said the plan likely would be executed once trump was in offi. The presidt did eventually approve the raqqa plan but not until weeks after flynn was gone. One of the things reportedly raised alarm bells in the Justice Department early on, in support of turkey on election day and called for the extradition of a cleric living in pennsylvania. On november 8th, election day he wrote, in part, it is fair to say most americans dont know exactly what to make of our ally, turkey, these days, as it endure ace prolonged political crisis that challenges its longterm stability. We must begin with understanding that turkey is vital to u. S. Interests. Turkey is really our strongest ally against isis as well as a source of stability in the region. The Justice Department notified him they were looking into his lobbying work. Joe, you put all these pieces together. He was being paid more than half a Million Dollars by turkishrun company and making decisions and talking to susan rice based on his influence with turkey. Getting paid. Looks like it. S an incoming National Security adviser and influencing policy. David ignatius, the recklessness is breathtaking, coming from a man, it is hard to believe, but we all remember him as a man who once had a stellar reputation in his field. Outstanding general. National security adviser. Tactical intelligence. One of the people who drove our joint special operations forces. I found in that last package of footage the most troubling part that involving Vice President pence. Yes. First i knew of this. Now, wait a minute. We just learned that mike flynn himself and his attorney, before the inauguration, when mike pence was head of the transition, informed the Transition Team about precisely these turkish matters. What do you mean its the first thing you heard about it . I didnt get that at all. As i listened to all this stuff, i say i come back to something steve hadley and i have talked about. And that is, 40 of the country thinks that this is their president and that attempts to go after him are trying to delegitimize him, hijack their votes. Steve, im curious whether you think this new process, headed by bob mueller, upright lawyer, will calm the 40 so they dont think their country is being taken away from them. I think it will help. But in some sense, it will depend on where the facts go and what we learn and what he learns in that investigation. Second of all, i think the white house and the president needs to look at the white house staff and the white house structure, which does not appear to be serving him well. Hes responsible for it. I think hes going to have to make some changes again if he wants to reset his presidency and begin to start putting this behind him, even while the investigation goes on. Look, there are reasons why and everybody knew that turkey was concerned about working with the pyd, ypg, about clearing raqqa. There are good reasons to want to look at that very closely. That said, general flynn put himself in a real at least appearance of conflict, and maybe actuality of conflict. And its very troubling. I dont know if this question is too simplistic, but as a former National Security adviser, i just wonder what you think of the hiring of general flynn under all of these circumstances, many of which were known and with repeated, desperate warnings not to do it, that this president would move forward and make this pick, what does that tell you . Looking in the rear view mirror, i dont think anybody would say, given what is on the table now, that this is an appointment that should have been made. But nobody was saying it then. But in real time in real time, that was being said. Donald trump did not win by listening to conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom was telling him dont hire general flynn. He was loyal to him and he loves loyalty. This was the perfect example, also, of the people around him being so scared of him, they reinforce all of his preexisting beliefs. Thats whats going to have to change. That does have to change. Hes going to have to get to other people around him that arent scared of him. Only if he wants his presidency to survive. Im sorry we have to follow up with mike pence again. Okay. Because, youre right. I saw all the information. I think who knows, maybe flynn, what he did was treasonous. We can talk about that. But i want to talk about mike pence. A pattern is clearly emerging. We saw it last week with the Deputy Attorney general. He goes to capitol hill seven times and says, he was fired because of the Deputy Attorney general. Stellar career. Had to listen to him. Had to listen to him. We had no choice. Said it seven times. Jeffrey, he was in the meetings with donald trump when donald trump said i want to fire the guy. I dont care. Lets bring meetings in january. Dont forget, they talked about firing him the first week they were in office and decided not to and pence was central to those. Whats he going to have to do you have that. Then you have, of course, what happened here, where hes claiming he did not know that flynn with bret baier, he said this is the first ive heard of it. I go back with david, theres a pattern here. Seems impossible. Anything is possible in this administration. But, yes, it seems impossible. Now to this. Can i goo jon heilman . Okay. He has a furrowed brow. Thank you for picking on his facial expressions. Exactly. You just wonder whether lets look at it. Mike pence appears to have been compromised by donald trump, day traded, thrown under the bus. You had it with Rod Rosenstein, who pushed back and saved his reputation forever in this city, validated what everybody thought about him for 27 years. And you also have general mcmaster, who a guy that we all have, i think, the greatest respect for. Really embarrass himself a couple of days ago, going out and trying to put up a smoke screen for a president who clearly created an egregious breach of security. To wrap up a couple of different topics here, steve hadley talking about the notion, and others talking about the notion of how Donald Trumps white house has to change. A lot of these people who come in with sterling reputations, their reputations are now in jeopardy because of the way theyre treated by the white house, the way donald trump seems to affect them. What kind of person wants to go into this white house under these circumstances and is there any evidence anticar wash. Right. Take your car and it comes out muddier. And what kind of person wants to go in . Is there any evidence that suggests donald trump would ever be open to the kind of change that people think a necessary . I think hes in a desperate situation. Hes ready for change. Youre being sarcastic. A little sarcastic. I noticed because a little smile started. Lets not get too carried away. On mcmaster, what mcmaster basically said is what everybody knows. The president of the United States gets good intelligence that would be useful in trying to move an ally or adversary in the direction of u. S. Policy. It comes up all the time. And the white house says the Intelligence Community we want to use this information with country x. And the Intelligence Community says sources and methods. And policy folks say screen it for sources and methods but whats the point of collecting the intelligence if we cant divulge it . This comes up all the time. But in this case, donald trump exposed, reportedly, our greatest asset. Israels greatest asset inside isis. Did he it without a Second Thought and the only defense from general mcmaster was basically hes too stupid to know what he did. No. What he said was, and what the president said, he has the right to do so. And the president does. And the president doesnt even know what he was doing. The question the wisdom of it and all the circumstances surrounding it. And we dont know the se circumstances. I suspect the amount of leaking going on in this administration is unprecedented. Iant neral mcmaster to work as much a anyby, but he went out and said the Washington Post story was fault. And i think he he recognized thats a mistake, probably one of the reasons he came out and made the full confession he did. Mike barnicle . Ooh. Joe, everything weve been talking about this morning is of critical import to the country and the role that the United States plays in the world. But David Ignatius pointing to something almost equally as important thats bubbling right beneath the surface. That is the 40 of the people in this country who believe, still, in donald trump. And Going Forward, this investigation and our attitude toward it, and our commenting on it ought to take more into consideration of what these people are going to feel if they do end up feeling that their vote and their feelings, their resentments, their hopes, whatever about the country have been stripped from them. Mike, i think the media i can only speak for myself. I think were going to be able to cover this in a more balanced, nuanced way that doesnt send the impression that we are going after donald trump when, in fact, a lot of us were frightened that the constitutional framework that has carry this had country forward for almost 240 years was under attack. It is not now. Rod rosenstein, what he did yesterday i go back to what David Ignatius said at the top of the show. He provided an Extraordinary Service and actually allows us to sit back a littl bit more and know theres not going to be a coverup. Theyre not going to push that to the side and theyre going to talk, i do think, of a very extraordinarily important trip because right now theres turmoil. Our relationship with israel. And we have an historic opportunity with the sunni arab world. This trip matters. Its really important to Pay Attention to. This week, the antibodies in our system still work, theres a muscle tone in our democracy, as people did a smart thing and we now have an institution that i hope the country, as a whole, says okay. Theres this special counsel investigating and were going to let that process run. I hope so. Because if you have 40 of the country that thinks were being delegitimized, you have a problem. Thank you both. Great to see you again. Every 12 hours. Still ahead on morning j joe, the top House Democrat on financial services, congresswoman Maxine Waters and deposit democrat on the oversight committee, congressman Elijah Cummings. First, senator Susan Collins joins the table. Were back in just a moment. I wanted to know who i am and where i came from. I did my ancestrydna and i couldnt wait to get my pie chart. The most shocking result was that im 26 native american. I had no idea. Just to know this is what im made of, this is where my ancestors came from. 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Com myaccount joining us now, republican senator Susan Collins of maine. Very good to have you on board this morning. Thank you. Great to have you here in washington. Great to be here. Senator, obviously, the big news is a special counsel. Whats your take on it . How important is that move . It is important. If you look at the Justice Department regulations, i think its clear that the Deputy Attorney general made the right call. Right. One of the criteria is whether or not it would be in the public interest. Gin allhats gone on, how could you conclude otherwise . Whats been your biggest concern over the past week, week and a half of turmoil out of the white house . Well, its the steady, drip, drip, drip of stories and allegations. And i worry that the allegations and the speculation are getting ahead of the facts. Uhhuh. We have a lot of anonymous sources. We have a memo that no one has seen but its been read from. Right. And thats why we need the special counsel to take care of the criminal aspects but we also need the Senate Intelligence committee to continue its investigation. It feels like theres a real hunger, desire and need, necessity for answers at this point because i would say, with all due respect, that its not just drip, drip, drip. It is explosion after explosion at this point with without a Communications Team that can really handle whatever the truth is. It seems so unprecedented in so many ways. It is unprecedented. And it gives the appearance of just total chaos. And that interferes with the ability to work on really important issues, like health care. I was going to say, how difficult does that make your job, to work on issues like health care, tax reform, Regulatory Reform . All the sort of things that need to be worked on. It makes it extremely difficult because, first of all, we dont have an administration giving guidance on what they would like to see, other than very sketchy outlines. You dont have the predent using his bully pulpit. And theres a sense of drift and distraction. And thats not good. You mentioned to me in the green room that you were here in 1974 as an intern during the height of watergate. Whoa youre aging me. I was hesitant to ask the question but didnt want to be rude. Im wondering if you can talk about if you feel parallels, a bit of deja vu or if you can compare these historical moments. Both are very important to our country but they feel very different to me. Keep in mind, it was a 20yearold intern. Fair enough. I was working for the freshman congressman, bill cohen, who broke with his party and supported the articles of impeachment as a member of the house judiciary committee. It was a very exciting time for me to be here. I saw the member for whom i was working standing tall for what he believed in and opposing the president of his own party. In terms of an administration that is just completely deluged with scandal, controversy sbun able to push an agenda and you see the walls caving in, do you see anyaralls here . Where i see a difrence granted my perspect is different than that 20yearold intern. Sure. In 1974 it seemed we were still proceeding with the business of the country. Sure. Here, it feels like everything is up in the air, everything is chaotic and theres a lack of leadership coming from the white house. Thats what seems different. People forget that Richard Nixon, for example, created the epa and there were all these accomplishments that occurred nonetheless. Im not saying that watergate hearings in the senate and then the impeachment proceedings in the house didnt freeze the action at times, but it wasnt like this. No, it wasnt. Opened china couple of years before, he was playing three dimensional chess on the world stage, trying to bring vietnam to an end. Nixon continued to be an active aggressive president almost until the end. To that point, senator, part of your job as a member of the Senate Intelligence committee is to oversee our intelligence committees. Im curious about two things. Have you sensed a demoralization concern in these agencies as these events have unfolded, firing of director comey, criticism of the cia . First, have they been worried . Second, do you sense they were relieved by the appointment of Robert Mueller, well known to the Intelligence Service community . I think everybody is relieved, whether openly or secretly, that Robert Mueller has been appointedment many of us know him, have worked with him. We know him to be the ideal choice for this job. Hes not going to have to take time to get up to speed. He has established relationships with the fbi agents. He knows the process. And hes a person who is above reproach. So thats exactly the kind of person that we need. The issue of moral and intelligence agencies is of concern to me. These are hardworking professionals, however. Theyre going to keep Going Forward. I talked to rank and file members of the fbi as well as other intelligence agencies, more traditional intelligence agencies. And they just keep going with their work. Jon heilmann . Youve now got director mueller, who has his independent broeb going, bunch of committees on the hill investigating these matters. Everyone wants jim comey to come to the hill and testify in open session. If mueller says no, i want to keep comey under wraps because its part of my investigation, do you defer to mueller or do you have comey testify . I would like him to testify before the Senate Intelligence committee as soon as possible, before we go out for recess, next week. I think its important. Our investigation is broader. Thats whats been missed. People ask, why do we need a special counsel and the Senate Intelligence Committee Investigation . And the answer is that we have two very different missions. The special counsel will focus on whether or not criminal charges are appropriate. Were focused on counterintelligence policy. And we can impose sanctions on russia. The special counsel cant impose sanctions on russia. So we still have an extremely Important Role to play. I hope we can resolve those conflicts. Any prosecutor investigator is going to say i dont want any witness coming before the senate. But i think we can tailor this so that perhaps certain subjects would be off limit but our investigation is really important because it is it will be be in public. His wont. And we need a far broader set of the facts to come out. Senator Susan Collins, thank you very much. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Sorry about sam stein trying to make you feel old. What did i do . Its an historical and important question. Sams so young, his first historical memory was like Britney Spears debut of the mtv awards. With the snake. It was formative. Is it a harder fight now in syria that senator john mccain joins us ahead with new reaction to all the developments in washington. Plus, timing is everything. The president continues to wade into personal politics, places where people usually leave politics out. Morning joe is coming right back. Hey allergy muddlers are you one sneeze away from being voted out of the carpool . Try zyrtec® its starts working hard at hour one and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. Stick with zyrtec® and muddle no more®. I just want to find a used car start at the new carfax. Com show me used trucks with one owner. Pretty cool. [laughs] ah. Ahem. Show me the carfax. Start your used car search at the allnew carfax. Com. Remember here at ally, nothing stops us from doing right by our customers. Whos with me . Were like a sports team here at ally. 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You cant let the critics and the naysayers get in the way of your dreams. I guess thats why i thank you. I guess thats why we won. The president , yesterday, speaking at the commencement for the coast guard. We noticed its not the first time he has intersected personal politics into a speech at places where people normally keep the politics out. This week, our Republican Team had its own victory under the radar, in our new budget. Weve ended years of painful cuts to our military and just achieved a 21 billion increase in defense spending. We didnt do any touting like the democrats did, by the way. As you know, i have a running war with the media. They are among the most dishonest human beings on earth. They sort of made it sound like i had a feud with the Intelligence Community. And i just want to let you know, the reason youre number one stop is exactly the opposite. Exactly. And they underand that, too. When i ran for president , i had to leave the show. Thats when i knew for sure i was doing it. And they hired a big, big movie star, arnold schwarzenegger, to take my place. And we know how that turned out. The ratings went right down the tubes. Its been a total disaster and mark will never, ever bet against trump again. And i just want to pray for arnold, if we can. Sam stein . What is there to say . He seems incapable of not making it about himself. I would argue there are president s who were treated a bit more unfairly. Lincoln on the list. Reagan was shot. Just a smidge. The white house was burnt down under madison. Still ahead on morning joe, the always outspoken congresswoman Maxine Waters joins the table next on morning joe. Liberty mutual stood with me when this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night. Hold on dad. Liberty did what . Yeah, Liberty Mutual 24hour roadside assistance helped him to fix his flat so he could get home safely. My dad says r insurance doesnt ve that. Dont worry i know what a lug wrench is, dad. 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Com myaccount impeccable credentials, storied history, ten years leading the fbi in both the bush and the Obama Administration. It couldnt be a better choice. He is at the latter part of his career, has nothing to prove. I think hell do a fabulous job. Chairman of the House Oversight committee, congressman Jason Chaffetz, speaking with the today show moments ago on the appointment of Robert Mueller as special counsel on the russian probe. Joining us now, congresswoman Maxine Waters. Were very excited to have you here. Delighted. Where do you think this goes from here . Well, i have hope with the appointment of special counsel mueller. And i think were going to learn a lot. Some people are concerned about all of the different investigations going on. Let them all go at it, because theres plenty to discover. And i believe when we get the subpoenas and we get the special counsel at work, doing the real digging into whether or not there was collusion, and the other committees are, you know, try i trying to snap certain backs, were going to learn a lot about the connections between this president , his allies and the kremlin. And its going to be very revealing. And i know a lot of people dont like to hear the word impeachment, but i believe its going to lead right to impeachment. You know people dont like to hear the word impeachment. But we know you like saying it. Jon . Youve become like one of the leading figures in singing that song. Yes. For people focused on this there are people who think like you do, that impeachment should be on the table or this is where were headed. The concern about mueller is that there are two ieshs. One is collusion. Thats right. The other is obstruction of justice. That muellers probe will push toward collusion, which is harder to prove, will take much longer whereas the obstruction is clearer. Do you think he will push for the harder thing to show than the easier . No, im not worried about that. Obstruction is clearer, based on what we saw unfold before our very eyes. I started out on this with collusion. I absolutely believe its a lot easier to prove than many people think. When you take a look at the work of mannefort, its going to be easy to identify emails, travel and all that goes along with bank record. Bank records, absolutely. I think he has been involved in money laundering. When you take a look at not only flynn and mannefort but carter page, theres a lot there. Its bee going on for a long time. So you have fel very happy that the comey memo came out. But you also said that he doesnt have credibility. Yes, i did. Which is it, though in this case . You have to look at this in relationship to whats unfoldin unfolding. 11 days out before the campaign, i didnt think that was credible. When he has been documenting his conversations with the president of the United States, he has memos. He showed them to other people so that they can verify that these memos were timely. Then i think we want to see that and i think that is extremely important to this investigation, or these investigations. Multiple. Im yes. And then you have a referral of facts. Thats right. Unindicted coconspirators that go to the House Impeachment Committee thats formed. Yes. The republicans control the house now. Thats right. And they control it by a substantial majority. Yes. Realistically, are we talking about any possibility of impeachment debates, seriously, coming in 2018, after this new congress . Or do you think this should be an issue in the 2018 midterms, that thats what democrats should run on . Well, i think its an issue now, and i think that the republicans who have been cautious, many of whom are worried, but not ready to step forward, recognizing that they have to be concerned about their reelections, et cetera. They wont be able to stand with this president when we unfold his connection to the kremlin and what they were involved in, which we, and i, consider to be collusion. I think its going to be borne out, and i dont think that any republican, even, you know, moderates or conservatives, who love america and who consider themselves patriots, they cannot stand with this president when it appears he has participated in undermyroning this democracy. Theyre going to have to fall. Thats what i believe. You keep mentions collusion. Yes. I want to define what you mean by collusion, because what youre talking about seems more circumstanc circumstantial to me. Bank records, and who knows why flynn was talking to the Russian Ambassador. Could have been, seems to have been, about sanctions. Collusion is specific. Meaning the russian government or actors within were trying to elect donald trump. I want to know what collusion means to you, that seems to be the standard by which you think he should be impeached . Absolutely. I am talking about strategies that were developed working with the Trump Campaign. I really do believe that much of what you saw coming out of trumps mouth was a play from putins playbook. I think that when you saw him absolutely calling hillary crooked, the, locker up, lock her up was developed. I think that was developed strategically with people from the kremlin, with putin, and i think its more than bank records. I think that you can see visits you know, to moscow were made during the campaign by manafort and others. I think its a lot more absolute than just following and you think they developed the talking pnts for the Trump Campaign . I think there was a cooperation in developing strategy about how they could ensure that Hillary Clinton was not elected. They need trump. Trump will be there to support lifting those sanctions. Thats what they really want to happen. They want to drill in the arctic. Tillerson that negotiated a multibillion dollar deal with exxon to do that drilling. They cant get the equipment, the supplies, and all that they need until the sanctions of lifted. They want trump, not only will he support lifting those sanctions, he also will turn a blind eye to the expansion that putin is trying to do. He does not care about them having invading crimea and does not care whether or not this egotistical maniac putin is attempting to reunite the whole soviet union. To be clear, theres no actual evidence yet. No, it has not been. No, it has not, and i want you to know, every time i talked about impeachment, ive says weve got to connect the dots, getofdo the investigation, that is what leads to impeachment and i also said that trump will lead us right there. Well leave it right there, too. Maxine waters, double back next time. Thank you very much. Youre so welcome. So great to see you. Thank you. Weve been at it for two hours and only scratched the surface on all of these stories. The president tweeting just now, this is the single greatest witchhunt of a politician in american history. Maxine your reaction . Well, you know, we find that trump can justify anything, but, hell tell you one thing today and change it tomorrow. Im not even focused on what hes talking about anymore. He has to understand that, you know, it is beginning to unfold. I have hope. I just hope that hes not so crazy that hell try to fire mueller. Well, that would be fascinating. Well, you talk about impeachment, but whats so interesting about the appointment of mueller is tweets, statements from the white house, firings. All suddenly become strangely irrelevant and become background floiz to the man who is now going to be sitting at justice, with his head down, just getting the facts. Bob Mueller Bob Mueller does not look like a witchhunter. And nobody on either side of the aisle will believe that, so, again when Donald Trump Tweets Something Like that, he only further damages his own credibility. He doesnt understand the scope of this. He does not understand it, and he doesnt understand the game hes playing right now and he doesnt understand washington, and he still doesnt have anybody around him in the white house who understands take the phone away. Just ahead, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee Republican senator john mccain joins us at the top of the hour. Plus Chris Matthews and Andrea Mitchell join in the conversation. Were back with much more live from morning joe, live from washington. Then there are moments it becomes clear, together always was, and always will be, a better way. Its my decision ito make beauty last. Roc® retinol, started visibly reducing my fine lines and wrinkles in one week. And the longer i use it, the better it works. Retinol correxion® from roc. Methods, not miracles. ™ youre going to be hanging out in here. So if you need anything, text me. Do you play . Use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before. You got next . Chase. Helping you master whats now and whats next. Can we at least analyze customer can we push the offer online . Legacy technology can handcuff any company. But yes is here. Youre saying the new app will go live monday . Yeah. With help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. With the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. This and its also a story about people. And while we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country we never forget. That your business is our business. The United States post servi. Priority you snis a big week with all networks introducing new shows. One caught my eye. Take a look at this. Its a brand new show all about the white house. Its time for whos getting fired. Will it be Reince Priebus . Steve bannon or sean spicer . Or the person most responsible for all of their problems donald trump . Whos getting fired . Hosted by ryan seacrest. Seacrest, again. That guy does many things. Hes very busy. I didnt know he would go into this realm. Well, hes everywhere. By the way, maybe only a couple of weeks. Back from the trip, everybodys gone. Welcome back to morning joe. Its thursday, may 18th. Here in washington, columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post David Ignatius, and joh h hyman and swas jeremy peters. Whats happening on capitol hill. Republicans shoulder to shoulder. You reported there wasnt a lot of space between trump and then deliberately. They knew they would hunker down. A lots changed in the week, including a new hashtag meme. Right. A lot of readyforpence, im told, floating around some republicans. I dont know. Look, lets not get too ahead of ourselves here. When you Start Talking about impeachment and removal from office you forget that the 535 players in the congress are not the only ones to consider. Theres a reason members of congress were so reluctant to distance themselves from donald trump after he did so many appalling and shocking and outrageous things during the campaign. Because he has a constituency. Its still around 40 of the country and remains very, very popular in a lot of these house districts and at this point talking about pulling the trigger on any type of impeachment proceeding seems outrageously premature. Usually poll numbers this early to an administration do not matter, but when you have a president actually fighting to keep his head above water a real clear politics average, below 40 for the first time. Down 38 , 39 in a lot of polls. 35 , 34 , you do have republicans start breaking. The only reason most are still there is because he still is strong among their base. Well, yeah, usually poll numbers at this point dont matter because theyre high. The honeymoon is no matter who you are, you come in and the country rallies behind you, because even people who voted against you want the country to succeed and you ride in the mid50s and 60s the first 100 days no matter what youve done. This is an unusual circumstance. The other day talking the over under. Where the trump base erodes enough that members of congress say, okay, like you thought it was about 35 or so. 35 but major right wing two other things here. And also, sam, its not just trumps 35 . If i were in congress, and if i were in a district that werent like a 70 30 district and saw the congressional ballot test having the republicans minus 16, weve all seen waves coming. Weve never seen anything like this. This is his story two things i keep coming back to. One is, he has yet to deal with a crisis that hasnt been selfinflicted. Exactly. Stunning. And you just dont go through a year of the presidency without some external event challenging you in ways that a katrina, or a bp oil spill or ebola or zika have challenged president s in the past. Every indicatio from thi white house, they are totally illprepared to deal with that, in part because theyre chaotic and havent filled a lot of the deputy roles that matter. The other thing i come back to, you start to see data points that suggests that Economic Confidence is dipping. Optimistic and now the stock market had a very bad day yesterday. I think those are spaces we need to watch closer. The dow collapsing almost 400 points yesterday. The worst day in about six months, and analysts linked it directly to the chaos inside the white house. So do we have john mccain . All right. Lets go right to senator john mccain. Standing by right now. Good to have you on the show, sir. You have talked about this being a watergate size and scale scandal, but with former fbi director Robert Mueller taking over the investigation of the russia questions, is there any hope that, perhaps, the questions, at least, can be contained so that the government can function properly . Well, i hope so. First of all, can i say congratulations to you and joe, and im really pleased joe has found someone that loves him as much as he does. Im very pleased. Thank you so much, senator john mccain from washington. Easily proving once again im not sure as much but, anyhow everybody, yes, yes. Now, senator. Oh, god. Okay. You stuck it in my side. Moving on to business at usual. Making me nervous. Thats good. So you talked about watergatesize and scale uhoh. Hes gotmore. Here we go. Joe, can i mention one thing really quick and i know you already mentioned it, but im still outraged that this turkish, that we should throw their ambassador the hell out of the United States of america. This is this is the United States of america. This isnt turkey, this isnt thirdworld country, and this kind of thing cannot go unresponded to diplomatically, and maybe in other ways. Maybe bring lawsuits we can identify these people. Now that ive got that off my chest senator, thank you i wanted to ask you, though. And these are thugs linked directly to erdogan and tell me what should the white house do at this point in condemning it and what can you all do in the senate . First of all, as i say, id throw the ambassador out. And these are not just average people at this. This is erdogans security detail. Somebody told them to go out there and beat up on these peaceful on these peaceful demonstrators, and i think it should have repercussions including identifying these people and bringing charges against them. After all, they violated american laws in the United States of america. You cannot have that happen in the United States of america. People have the right in our country to peacefully demonstrate, and they were peacefully demonstrating. Yh. You look at the tape. It was certainly, tip our hat to the d. C. Police. What is the white house doing . What is the response . Is there anything even remotely the state Department Said they were looking into it. Well, a strong a statement of criticism. Were concerned by the violent incidents involving protestors and Turkish Security personnel tuesday evening, is what was said. Senator john mccain, lets go ahead and move back and well ask it again. Youve stated that whats unfolded this past week is wa r watergate size and scale, and while were talking about turkey, we might as well throw on the fire, of course, the National Security adviser Michael Flynn getting paid over half a Million Dollars, and changing u. S. Policy changing a war strategy to help the client state that paid him half a Million Dollars. What i was saying when i was describing that is that this is the classic scandal in the nature that theres another shoe that drops every day or two, as you noticed again this morning, there was more contacts between the white house the Trump Campaign and, and the russians, than previously disclosed. This is the drip system, and thats why its good to have mueller doing what hes doing, and its important for the congress of the United States to do what theyre supposed to do, which are two different missions, as you know one is, muellers case determine whether criminal behavi has taken place, and then Congress Place what did the russians do to interfere in our election . And what do we do in order to prevent that from happening in the next election . And frankly, so far we have not punished the russians for what we all know they tried to do, and that was to undermine the fundamental of democracy. So all of us that knew director mueller are very happy hes there, and that relieves the congress and the executive branch from certain responsibilities, but we still have to move forward with the investigation of what the russians did, and how we can counter it and, frankly, all the briefings ive had, the russians have not reduced their hacking and their cyber activities which is a real threat to the security of the United States. As chairman of the Armed Services committee, i am telling you, they have put a lot of our capabilities in danger in this new cyber warfare arena. David ignatius . Senator, you were one of the earliest and bravest critics to say theres something really wrong in this issue of trump, possible contacts with russia. President trump is still trying to make this a Divisive Political issue, saying, its a personal attack on him. No one has ever been treated as unfairly. What can you do as a leading republican senator with your colleagues to prevent this from being as bitterly polarizing as it seems the president would like to make it . David, first of all, i have been worst treated than President Trump has. So lets make sure that the viewers know about that. The point is the point is seriously, we have to, in my view, have this select committee. There are different committees in the house and the senate. Different jurisdictions, i have great confidence in our Intelligence Community, Richard Burke and mark warner, but i think it has reached the size and scope what i was trying to say, that it requires a select committee. It is far different from watergate in many, many ways. As you know, watergate started with a breakin. This thing started in a far different fashion. And until that select committee is created, i assume youre going to keep speaking out to your fellow republicans saying its not appropriate to be criticizing this process . Well, i no. But i also think that, for example, we have not reacted yet to what happened last november when the russians tried to interfere with our election. It changed the outcome of our election, which there is no evidence that theysucceeded, but still the attempt should spark reaction on our side including increased sanctions and other actions we could take. At least pay a price for a platant attempt to undermine our democracy and our w of life. Eremy peters . Good morning, senator. Good morning. So you bring up the question of the, having parallel investigations here. So as congress is supposed to be moving along on issues from tax reform and infrastructure, health care, its going to be incredibly bogged down by this special investigation into the activities of the Trump Campaign. Is there a growing concern that congress cannot do both things at once, and that the policy is on the verge of becoming overwhelmed by the politics here . I dont think so. We are continuing to meet almost daily on reform replacing obamacare. We are moving forward with our hearings on Armed Services as far as the defense is concerned. What i worry more than anything else is that were facing in september another one of these edge of the cliff government shutdown, then we pass a massive trillion dollar bill that nobody has seen or read with no amendments. What i worry about is that we do not have a process. Joe, in your day, back there in the coolidge administration, we used to take up an operations bill, about a week, and pass it, send it over, and a normal process. Weve got to return to a normal process, and, frankly, i dont blame that on this scandal. I blame it on a broken process here in the congress of the United States. Silent cal always insisted on a private orpder, you would expect that from a new englander like coolidge. Im actually thinking about this, last night, how great it could be, john man, if the investigation started, they moved it to the side, instead of donald trump trying to move everything through as quickly as you make a big mac in a drivethru, regular order. Tell ryan and tell mcconnell you would like both sides to start doing, going to committees, on tax reform. The senate, starting to go to committee on health care reform. Stop this nonsense of talking to three people, and fringe elements of your party, and getting together a bill that gets, you know, 217 votes. Yeah. I cant really the concept of regular order and the Trump Presidency dont really seem to go together. No. Hes not tweeting again, is he . He is tweeting again. Senator are you kidding me . John heilemann here. Last night, after mueller was appointed, you had the white house put out a statement. President trump put out a statement that was, out this morning, relatively normal. The kind of thing a president would normally say. He said he looked forward to including the mat concluding the matter quickly. Accepted the notion mueller was appointed so forth. A few minutes ago President Trump tweeted this. This is the single greatest witchhunt of a politician in american history. So it sounds to me, from the basis of that, it looks like President Trump may want to go to war with Robert Mueller, and im curious what you think will happen if that is the case . I think thats a nonstarter. Robert mueller is, has a reputation going back to service in the vietnam conflict, and i know of no one who doesnt have the highest regard for Robert Mueller. So i think that, that would be a nonstarter. By the way, just on the subject we were on before. Also the democrats keep slow walking all of these nominees, taking the maximum amount of time out of our day and week in approving them. So theres a problem there with democrats not being able to get over the election. Speaking of nominees, senator sam stein here. Rumors are flying that one of your good friends, senator Joe Lieberman, is in consideration for fbi director. Now, curious what your position is on his potential nomination, but do you recognize the concern some people do have about having a politician i know the senators not in congress now, but he was a politician in that post at this period of time . Well, theres politicians and theres politicians, and Joe Lieberman is not only respected and admired but beloved by all of us on both sides of the aisle. I know of no one who people had genuine affection for the way that they have for Joe Lieberman. Ask any of your guests, no matter who comes on. I think the tst and confidence at he would have here, particularly in the United States senate, is remarkable, and i really hope that the president i hope i dont nix his chances here, but i hope that the president would select joe. Hes in many aspects, hes the finest man ive ever known. Well, i mean other than me, senator mccain. Right. Other than you, joe. Oh, my god. Okay. Other than the time he told barnicle he wishes id been chained when the boat went down in the middle of pensacola bay. Other than that a Great Service to humanity. Well, speaking of a Great Service of humanity, im serious here, and id say were not spoetzed to do this, but this is what we do. Thank you so much for your service to america, and i, for one. Honesty. I for one, despite the hell you went through when you served this country, and were a prisoner of war and served honorably and refused to go home when when people tried to pull favors for you, but you wouldnt leave any of your men behind. Despite the extraordinary courage and honor and valor you showed then, there are many of us who believe the service you were doing to america, for america, right now, is every bit as vital or perhaps remarkably enough even more vital. Thank you for your honesty and thank you for your strength at a time when this republic needs it the most. I thank you, and mika, its not too late. Exactly. Senator john mccain, this is why we love you. Still ahead the markets, turning to washington. Theyre going to try to get back on track this morning. Were going to try to get this show back on track. Somehow. In jt a little bit. See, thats why i love him. Such a son of a bitch, compliment him and he comes back with a wisecrack. Thats a great guy. Sort of a mockish, suckuppy tribute and he slapped you. Came right back. Thats actually clever. Thats why we love the guy. Also ahead, nbcs Andrea Mitchell and msnbcs Chris Matthews join the table on the House Oversight committee. Congressman Elijah Cummings on the appointment of Robert Mueller counsel in the investigation. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Then there are moments it becomes clear, together always was, and always will be, a better way. 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You got that right, kid show thing. Get a directv allincluded package for 4 rooms. Only 25 a month, price guaranteed for 2 years. Available for at t unlimited plus customers. He has impeccable credentials a storied history, ten years leading the fbi in both the bush and the Obama Administration. It couldnt be a better choice at the latter part of his career, nothing to prove. I think hell do a fabulous job. Chairman of the House Oversight committee, congressman Jason Chaffetz speaking out on the today show today on the appointment of Robert Mueller as special counsel into the russian probe. Now from capitol hill, the Ranking Member of that Committee Democratic congressman Elijah Cummings of maryland. Elijah, we have been talking for some time about republicans not showing a lot of courage. I dont know if rod was a republican or appointed yesterday by a reblican he made a courageous choice in a changes the arc of this entire investigation. Whats your response . I was very pleased with what rod rubenstein did. Ive known him well over ten years. Keep in mind, he was our u. S. Attorney in baltimore. So ive had a lot of dealings with him, and i knew him, and ive always known him, to be an honorable man. As a matter of fact, i count him as someone that i would put in the league with a mueller. And keep in mind, even when president obama came into office, he continued to keep them in the u. S. Attorneys office for the entire eight years, that president obama was president. So he enjoys a very favorable reputation in our state, and i just had a feeling that he would do the right thing. I was kind of surprised when that initial letter came out. As a matter of fact, i was shocked, but i think he did the right thing. I have a lot of respect for counsel mueller. I think it was a good choice. When i first heard it yesterday, you know, i just had a feeling that, you know, i think we can now move forward, and i feel good about it. David ignatius is here and has a question. David . I want to ask you, congressman, if memory serves, you were one of the first people who raised the issue of Michael Flynns contacts as a representative of turkey, and turkish interests in a letter that you wrote back in november. Right. And i wanted to ask you whether you think that letter in some way triggered this, what we now know is an investigation that was underway as early as january, before flynn actually took his job as National Security adviser, and what you know based on your own personal involvement in this investigation, really, as i say, from the very beginning . Yeah. I i dont know im not sure that the role that the letter played, but we were i sent a very lengthy letter, and i heard your alls discussion, by the way, earlier, with regard to Vice President pence. I sent them a very lengthy letter warning them of in november. This s in november. In november. And so i do think and basically, when i asked him about it later on, he said that, you know, he just had a fog and doesntting it, and i was kind of surprised by that. This was like a redflag letter. You know, this guy is not the right guy to hire. And so you know, i dont know. But ill tell you what does, the thing that i do find very interesting, is how he had told people in the white house about the fact that he was being investigated. I mean, come on now. At some point you say, duh. Come on now i mean, this is not this is not Rocket Scientist some. Somebody should say, wait a minute. Red flag to at least check out all of this. I think you all said it best. I think what happened, i think the president and somebody who had come to him, he had that kind of experience with regard to formulations, things of that nature. He was a friend, and so he came up and said he was loyal, so he wanted him onboard. But, you know, one of the things we need to do in our committee, government reform and oversight, weve got to begin to we need to look at the vetting process, and how it takes place. In new administrations. Whether theyre democratic or republican. And im hoping that chairman chaffetz and i can Work Together to get some things done. The other question that has come up over and over again, is monitoring. Do the committees take a back seat . I would hope, and this is my guess, that counsel mueller will come forward and have discussions with all of us. The various Ranking Members and chairman of the various committeds in the house and senate, and make sure that we dont step on his investigation. Thats number one, and then we need to look, and i i agree with senator mccain. We have really got to remember how this thing all started. With started with us being told that 17 of our intelligence agencies all agree that there had been interference with our elections. We got to make sure that doesnt happen again. Thats where the congress may come in and play a very significant role. All right. Congressman Elijah Cummings, as always, love having you on. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. And the quote that comes from this interview come on come on sounds like my dad. Come on, man. Come on. Lets bring out the host of nbcs hardball Chris Matthews. You and the entire primetime lineup, number one, with a bullet. You guys are like Peter Frampton in 1976. Its impressi, man. Its impressive. Not quite as your inteiew with john mccain, but ill take it. General macarthur, thanking the troops. You take your confidants where you can get them, my friend. Yes. I got one. Chris, so much to talk about right now. I want to talk to you about mueller, but i feel like we really need to start first with flynn. And what we just saw there again. A november warning to mike pence, dont hire this guy. Hes conflicted. Hes getting money. Hes working for turkey. One warning after another. Warning to kushner, warning to bannon, warning to priebus, warning to trump. Nonstop warnings, dont hire this guy. They didnt listen. Well people were given a lot of warnings about trump, the American People, and they hired him. People make decisions on a grand reason. Loyalty there. You know that works with trump. Loyalty. Im amazed that i think in certain lives, creative people in show business, for example, you can create the world around you and live in it. Right. Woody allen, said what did reality ever do for me . The presidency is not one of those positions. You cant create your own world. You live in a world of facts. Facts. Donald trump created his own world, on fifth avenue, in his Corner Office where he trump tower. Where he lived and worked for, what, 45 years. And he was in a cocoon, of his own creation. And we see this with so many white houses. They go in, and they think that, just won the big election, and theyre going to change the rules of washington, but we do have a constitution, which always balances things out. I think thats true and a couple things. Trump first of all probably doesnt care about our primetime lineup on msnbc or critics of any kind. The resistance is all part of fodder for him. He likes the proposition. E had lives in a world of opposition and division. Hes very comfortable in it. What he doesnt like, a world of facts, front page newspapers with New York Times and Washington Post, hates facts. Because its up against him and Public Servants that stand against him. We have a prize in mr. Mueller, mr. Robert mueller, a prize, combat veteran, broz star, purple heart, went into the big cities and went after street bad guys. Killers. Hes quite a top prosecutor and i bet on him. Very tough. You cant call him lyin ted or crooked hillary. Looks like he just started a few minutes ago with that witchhunt thing. Trumps not a witch. Hes trump. I think hes going to have to take on the facts now, and this guy looks to me, going to go point by point and take his time. By the way, how can trump cut off his resources . Hes already got 20 special agents working with the fbi. Friends with comey. And friends with rosenstein. Says he cant cut off the i think its already funded. Cant fire, reassign a guy. Just good lk with that. At that, even republicans would move towards impeachment. Thats not a possibility. Stay with us, chris. Well be right back. Still ahead, white house aides tell our next guest, just how exhausting it is to work for donald trump, saying, the moment it gets quiet is when the next crisis happens. Time magazines michael shear is here with new reporting and a provocative any cover, well show you, coming up next. Boost. Its about moving forward, not back. Its looking up, not down. Its being in motion. In body, in spirit, in the now. 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To avoid longterm injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. If you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. Ask your doctor about cialis. And get medical help right away. Youre going to be hanging out in here. So if you need anything, text me. Do you play . Use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before. You got next . Chase. Helping you master whats now and whats next. Nbc news correspondent and 40e69 of Andrea Mitchell reports editor and chief, matthew continetty and for Time Magazine, michael scherer. The cover of the new issue. Its subtle. A light touch, our friends from Time Magazine showing the kremlin and the white house. And trump demands for loyalty, behavior testing the institutions of the people in the government. Whats your conclusion . On how on how our institutions are holding up . Its been a good week. Every time trump decides what he can do what hes done outside his whole career, color outside the lines and bully people, various institutions, the press, Law Enforcement, agencies, Congress Responds and steps up. What chris said. Reality imposes itself here and the story of the first two months, through months now, of the presidency has been one of someone who is not used to operating with these sort of restrictions, learning how to operate with these restrictions. Right. And the system, chris, has been checked time and time again. And the system has proven itself to be resilient. The executive orders the first week. Federal judges said, no. I know a lot of people are talking about, weve even talked about sort of picking your judge. Well, just look what happened this past week when the Supreme Court decided they were not going to overturn a decision that ended voter i. D. Laws in north carolina. Federal judges are lined up against him. The intel agencies are doing their job. Even Congress Pushes back on the first Big Health Care vote. Yeah. I dont think comey can quite understand what it means to be a donald trump. Huge ego and huge success, nor can trump understand comey. A guy who works for a modest salary, serves his country. Day after day shows up for work, prosecutes the cases. He doesnt understand straight hours and just met the biggest straight hourer of his life in Robert Mueller. He thinks theyre suckers. What happens when you cross a Straight Arrow whos tough, you get Rod Rosenstein staring you down saying im not going to be your sucker. In fact, you just stepped into something. I think he embarrassed him and he said, okay. Im me. And i have pride and i have honor, integrity, youre not going to make a fool out of me and came back pretty strong. Andrea, the systems have seemed to work very well. We still, though, have, it seems to me, a shock a day. And thecenes of erdogans thugs beating up protestors in washington, d. C. , really shocking. Well, i was working ining on story yesterday as you know. Shocking first of all to see erdogan in the oval office. Im honored to meet mr. Erdogan, mispronouncing his name several times and not understanding why he has not been there in several years. Because he is a thug. He has locked up 140 journalists in the last year alone. Closed 200 media offices in the last year alone. He is now more dangerous than almost any place except mexico, to be a journalist, to be a journalist in turkey. Institutions are being destroyed in turkey. Whether youre kurdish or armenian, dissidents. We are talking about scenes that is two blocks from former president obamas house. Right near the kushners house. Rex tillerson is three blocks away. Were talking about sheridan circle. Talking about the mean streets of doesnt usually happen over there, matthew. And quickly, what happened, i was told that when the new police chief says we are going to hold people accountable. We have bodycam footage. We know who these people are in the suits with lapel pins were on a plane out of andrews. Theyre gone. Matthew, you wrote a great article a couple days ago. Talking about how how conservatives, how republicans, how this country tries tries to come to terms with donald trump. Here we are two months in. What is the state of the conservative movement . What is the state of the Republican Party . When this chaos, as you as you point out from selfinflicted wounds, continues to churn daily . Weirdly, the Republican Party may be healthier than the conservative movement. Because the conservative movement has split in two and there are people who would defend donald trump whatever he does. In fact, invent rationalizations for some of his actions which are clearly just impulsive. So how this besides democrats say, this guy was a democrat until 2011. Discovered birtherism. Gave money to chuck schumer. Why is it conservatives are willing to go over a cliff, and well get back to russia, for a guy that is revealing highly Sensitive Information to russias foreign minister . Our enemies . The key to understand, many conservatives knew trump someone elected to implement an agenda. Some call that trumpism. Tough on the border, tough on trade. Stay out of the middle east, and create a free market inside the United States. Deregulation, tax cuts. Repeal obamacare. They want him to do that agenda. The problem with these kind of selfmanufactured crises, that agenda, off the calendar. And the truth is, one thing that many people new to washington dont understand, once youre put into office you really only have about a year to get your agenda. Fox news is reporting breaking news. This morning. That roger ailes has died. We don have a lot of details about this. Trudge broke it. Not so long ago. But roger ailes dead at the age of 77. Chris matthews, i said several years ago in an interview about ailes, and i say it still nap if you want to look at the two people that impacted American Culture and politics, over the past 20 years, you would look at steve jobs, and roger ailes. Yeah. I was going this always happens. I was going to call him the other day. Going through hes done bad things. Been through bad things, but he got me started in Cable Television back when he was running c nbc and americas talking. I met him. An amazing thing. I think the reason he succeeded with fox in the beginning hes the kind of guy that would watch fox. Like sports fans. They root for the team because they love it. He rooted for his network because thats what he wanted to watch and i think that was his strength, like it or not. Chris and i first met roger ailes. I was right out of school, 1968 in philadelphia. He was the producer of the mike douglas show in the same building where the nbc affiliate was. I would see him all the time. After that is when he first hooked up with Richard Nixon and did that 72 campaign. And he was dynamic, and i mean, youre absolutely right. When you think as you do off the top of your head, your gut is so right about steve jobs, roger ailes. He transformed american politics and american media. He was also, you two know this, because youve known him a very long time, regardless of of the dark sides of his character, i can tell you, and im sure you have stories, fiercely loyal. Roger ailes was fiercely loyal, and would fight for you even if you didnt in the worst company, he certainly was to both mika and me, and tough and fierce. We didnt even work for him. But but, also you know it started the nixon thing. Excuse me. Joe, but in 1968, the song by joe mcginniss, fabulous book. Celebrated ailes. Ailes is the guy nixon found. He said television is not a gimmick. Television is real. Youve grot ot to learn it. Nixon, oh, this guys got something. And town Hall Meetings for nixon, completely manufactured. Right. And getting into that territory, that stuff matthew, weve heard, of course, an awful lot about the bad side of rogers ailes. One of the first things i read about him, before i knew him, doing americas talking and working at what would become this network eventually, roger ailes was the guy that after the show was over wouldnt go up to the hosts and pat them on the back and say, youre doing okay. Hed go up to the cameramen and say, thank you. Go to the makeup room. Say, thank you all, so much. He would talk to the janitors walking thank you. Youre doing a great job. Roger ailes, again, you said hes the guy who would watch fox news, but at least in all of the stories i heard about him certainly in those early days, those were the people that he talked to, and thanked. Usually his criticism was reserved tore People Network stars or president s of the United States. Right . Talking about someone who basically defined conservatism in the postreagan era more than anyone else through the creation of fox news. Someone who helped the rise of donald trump by making Donald Trump Associated with Fox News Channel giving him a new platform to reach a new audience and introducing him to the populist conservatism of fox. A major historical figure whos downfall came quickly and now hes departed. Unbelievable, a year ago, michael, this guy was, i would say, easily the most powerful man in republican politics. The most powerful man in conservative politics and certainly last of the dies breed, tell his network where to go and they would go. It is ironic, though, that donald trump caused him fits and caused fox news fits and trump would complain that ailes wasnt always as good to him as he should have been. Especially that first fox news debate tlrchl debate. There is sort of a passing of the torch. No one changed politics more with single media than ailes. Took television to the First Political space first in the 60s and 70s. With fox news transforming the Republican Party. I think trump stole his populism and he wasnt sure what to do with it, because trump was breaking rules he had said and had to figure out to maneuver through that and now, you know, there is this new i mean, we communicate with trump through twitter. Technologies continue to change politics and ailes was not a social media guy. He was a television guy. There is a sort of passing of the torch. Its a great thing about robert frost and take the road less traveled by, it works. Hes guy saw the liberal media, liberal primetime, very prochoice, pro gate rights, wait a minute. A. M. Radio is still conservative, but movies are liberal. He goes you know what . I see all the three Major Broadcast Networks and think theyre either moderate, liberal, or more liberal in the middle. I have an option. Im going conservative. Where nobody else is going. I remember my chief in staff in congress at the same. Dave stafford, 1996 i think it was. We were talking to each other and said, can you imagine what would happen if somebody started a conservative network . And we didnt have to watch the same story being yeah, yeah. Looking down the end of their noses at us hand all the other ailes came up with a big idea. Murdoch bought it, and it changed everything. The rest is history. We should point out his downfall was because of personal failures, and the fact there was such a culture of illegality. The abuse at fox that was not restricted to ailes. It was pandemic, according to all accounts and the money paid out and still face a lot of liability because the payments were not properly labeled in share holder reports. That corporation is being remade by the sons now, and its being remade after the fact. You look at roger ailes life and you look at all of his successes, and im reminded of joe paterno. A man that ameri loved and respected, and lookedp to for years, and i know certainlyot all of america loved roger ailes. He was a very divisive figure, but i can tell you, conservatives were thankful for him. Republicans were grateful for what he started up. And just like paterno, what, four, five years later, people are now starting to try to balance it. But there is there is no doubt and we just have to say this. Its right now fox news is an absolute mess. We talked about this earlier in passing. Roger ailes gone for, what, maybe six months, a year, and for first time this century, they arent in first place. In fact, for the first time this century, they are in third place. Rachel beats them every night. Its i do think a lot of our viewership is rationale, as you know, joe, its rationale. People want to watch something that makes them happy. The markets going up cnbc is dynamite, the liberals are winning the liberals are progressive. Conservative side winning theyre watching. Why are people watching this network. I said when alabama wins a national championship, i turn on Sports Center and i let it run in a loop all day. Conservatives dont have a lot to look at on fox. Thats true. One of the things in entertainment also, institutions request a personality in cases of their boss. Newspapers you know the editors of the newspapers and what theyre running and why theyre running it and the personality of that person running the newspaper comes through every day to the reader. The readers get to know that person. When ailes leaves fox news its not clear what the personality and voice of fox news is. Bradley when he left the Washington Post you knew he was gone. The whole voice changed. Michael dukakis said one thing, the fish rises to the top. I never blame staffers. I go to the top. Read the statement from rogers wife. She posted this on drudge, i am profoundly sad and heartbroken to report that my husband, roger ailes passed away this morning. Roger was a loving husband to me, his son zachary, and a loyal friend to many and he was also a patriot, profoundly grateful to live in a country that gave him so much opportunity to work hard, to rise, and to give back. During a career that stretched over more than five decades his work in entertainment, politics affected the lives of so many millions. And so even as we mourn his death, we celebrate his life. Matthew, talk about talk about growing up in a culture where fox news actually was was the Republican Party. It was the conservative movement. Roger ailes would decide in the morning meetings what the message would be at fox news and you would hear candidates on the stump basically parroting that across the country for the next day. Well, ailes created such an Important Institution of the Republican Party and conservative movement that many young conservatives, myself included, looked at appearing on fox regularly as part of the bucket list to tick off. That was an aspiration, you wanted to do Something Like that. It goes to michaels point about this era of transition. That i dont think it really has any network for that matter, really has the same impact. The younger journalists want twitter. They wanted their own personal brands. So youve had this deinstitutionalization across politics and media and were in place where you talk about the voice of the top nowtsald trump on twitter. Thats the mos important voice for the Republican Party right now. Andoger ailes, along those lines, roger ailes would grouse about bill oreilly. Com and all the things that bill oreilly sold on his show and then he would grouse privately and sometimes publicly about bill oreilly the author. Hes an author who just happens to have a tv show. He was he was a i thought it was very ironic at msnbc phil griffin, he is phil is a lay za fair sort of libertarian when it comes to management. You do your thing, build your show, do whatever. Sort of hands off, he knows what moves to make and when to make it and hes been here, god, for they said almost since the beginning, whereas roger ailes the conservative, top down, completely opposite. It all started and ended with ailes. The messaging, the people that were on the show, and on negative side for a lot of people right now the culture. One of the most remarkable things about roger ailes was he was a shrewd political brain and he took that brain and applied it to media in a way no one had ever done before. He understood in order to undermine us the Mainstream Media you needed to do it from the inside and thats what he did. He was like fox news was like a trojan horse inside the media with this clever inversion of the phrase fair and balanced told its viewers that it was the true source of objectivity and fact and tried to make us all ok like were the biased losers. Why dont we talk about also you didnt believe that, did you . A lot of people did. That was the point. I got to know him, chris, was so many people are glib. Theyll have a certain pose. Roger ailes believed what he said. He believed what fox was doing. He was a conservative in a bunker, like a nixon 1974. He believed the whole world was out to get him. And he you know, he fought every day. Well, i had an interesting conversation about mario cuomo and nixon and people like that. He had people he was looking at the temperament of these guys not just their ideology and he was pretty straight about knowing who was a little loony and who wasnt like nixon and he saw through the reality, i thought. He was an angry guy and anger has a lot to do with journalism. People have an edge and they want to get the rich people or the other side of the political spectrum, drives the hard work of journalism in many cases and he had a big chunk attitude. Lets talk about, for instance, nbc, he wanted to work at nbc. He wanted to run this network, this network back in the mid90s wouldnt let him. He was a conservative. They wanted no part of him. He he left angry. Yeah. He just he didnt fit the corporate model of nbc at the time, so he left pissed off and beat the hell out of nbcs creation for the next 20 years. The interesting thing he went out andd subscribers i dont know how the cable business works, but paid subscribers 10 apiece, got Rudy Giuliani to give him access to new york city and gave him that available local channel, you had to get new york to get into the business. He did all the things technically you had to do to launch a network and he did it. And then a couple years, michael, cable providers had no choice but to carry fox news. Because they would get angry phone calls every day from people, why dont we have fox news on our cable and a little secret here, a vast majority of the money that Cable Companies make, they make from subscription fees. From subfees. One of the interesting things were describing here, how he broke the rules to remake politics the country, the business, the media, he also broke other rules. A real dark side here, and its the same spirit. I mean the way he treated other people was morally repugnant. The way he tried to cut corners, i mean even the way he bullied journalists covering fox was morally repugnant, but it was it all came as a piece. You couldnt separate the sort of i want to cause trouble here and do it my way and remake the world. Again, going back to steve jobs, now certainly not talking about steve jobs having any hr problems but you heard one horror story after another horror story after another about how jobs was a terrible human being to work with at times. Yeah. And yet he transformed, transformed our life and culture. He thrived as you guys were pointing out on a sense of grievance and persecution and au straization by the main stream, by the establishment and who does that sound like. Our president. Its no coincidence that roger ailes an adviser to almost every single republican president since nixon saw eye to eye with donald trump and one of my favorite stories from the campaign is, roger ailes doing debate prep with donald trump and the two of them being unable to get to the task at hand because they just spent the whole time talking about each others problems. Telling stories. Trump is the one republican president since knicksen who didnt listen to roger ailes. Yeah. Pretty remarkable. With us on the phone National Affairs editor at new York Magazine gabe sherman author of the loudest voice in the room how the brilliant roger ailes built fox news and divided a country. Youve been following this guy for a very long time. What are your thoughts this morning on the legacy he leaves, both good and bad . Well, i mean, my immediate thought is its a tragic sad morning. The passing of anyone and especially someone with the influence of ailes is a big moment for our country. You know, its a tragic morning because roger ailes, after all he built and his career, you know, for all practical purposes, he died alone. He was in the last months living in exile in palm beach, had sor of reclused himself, cut himself off most of his friends, was not in touch with trump in the big republican power broker he used to be and ends the last chapter of his life. So, you know, thats a tragic story whatever you think of ailes politics, as a human story i find that sad. To the larger question, joe, of his legacy, i mean i think you cant separate out the political moment were in from roger ailes life work. He revolutionized politics, turned it into entertainment, and fox news sort of tilled the ground and made Donald Trumps candidacy possible so a candidate with reality tv values would be accepted by the republican base. And so, again, i think whatever you think of roger ailes as a person, he was the subject of, you know, dozens of Sexual Harassment allegations which he denied but we should point that out, his consequence impact on america remarkable. Go ahead. Are you there, gabe . Yeah. Im sorry. Oh, i just said, you know, i think he transformed american life. And we are going to be, you know, living with his legacy for years and decades to come. Yeah. Very interesting point. Very interesting time in roger ailes career at fox news. This was a guy that went 100 miles an hour,