Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20120817

medicare, excuse me, well, let's see, i got to -- there we go -- by $716 billion. >> oh, my lord. >> i'm just -- who are his people? >> who? not -- not my -- >> what in the world? good morning, everyone. it is friday. >> hold on. did you see that shot? >> yeah, i did. >> who set this up? >> this guy is running for president of the united states. >> he's at a strip mall. >> early set of "morning joe." >> he's in a -- >> i know. that's running for mayor. >> this is what we call white board in a strip mall. >> he's in a prison of his own blandness. this is terrible. >> with us on set, national owe fares editor for new york zimmerm magazine john heilemann. brian sullivan is here. no tube top? >> no tube top today. >> president of council on foreign relations, richard haass. we have a ton of stuff to get to. foreign policy, facebook now down to minus 15. i said 26. richard, i was far too generous and also, records are being broken already in this campaign. it's in august and they're all the wrong records. >> they are. with 81 days to go until the election, 81, the race for the white house has already hit a staggering milestone. spending on campaign advertisement has now crossed the half billion dollar mark. that's about the same amount spent on the entire 2008 general election which also broke records. this is according to analysis by the nbc news political unit. spending from outside groups like super pacs account for almost half that money, however 86% of all the outside money goes to boosting the romney campaign. thank god, because then you get press conferences like the one you saw. >> you see that way -- >> big spending. >> you can marshall your money carefully by having just the right backdrop. >> crunch the numbers, $205 million, compared to $33 million from the pro obama groups. >> let's talk quickly about this. we whine so much about this every day and people get tired of it. this is a huge story. i was complaining that barack obama spent more in '08 than bush and kerry combined in '04. we're already in august, breaking records from '08. what is the impact day to day on the campaigns and on the election? how does this -- how does this affect democracy? >> i don't know about democracy. i know having spent the last -- early part of this week with joe biden in north carolina and virginia, there's a lot of people in those states who already are trying to figure out someone who can take their television set away from them the next few months. all they're looking at is the ads. >> is it the linda mcmahon effect? >> people are getting sick of it already. it's an interesting question, whether the republican advantage in spending, i say this with no idea, whether that advantage will help them or not. we're in unchartered territory here. >> except i can tell you -- >> people may at some point shut off the tv. >> i lived in washington, d.c., during the 2008 campaign, and i can tell you that there were 200 barack obama ads for every three john mccain ads and it made a huge difference. grainy thing and john mccain wants to raise your taxes and that moved the polls. that did make a difference. i'm wondering, though, this year, if it's even beyond that? >> it is beyond that. the obama campaign, the disparity will not be as great this time even though the obama campaign will be outspent. as i say, if you're talking about six or seven or eight states and this amount of money the saturation could get to the point -- we don't know what people will do. there is no analog in the past. if you're talking about we're going to spend $2.5 billion in this campaign, last time we spent a billion. that's a big order of magnitude difference and there's no -- because there's no precedent we don't know. >> mika, the only reason i talked about the linda mcmahon effect, we all know in connecticut people were running out of their front doors with their hair on fire saying please stop. people hated linda mcmahon regardless of ideology because of all the 30 second ads. i think that may be the only precedent we have. in some other campaign news before we get on to everything else we have, there is a new cnn poll out that shows that paul ryan is making a dent in barack obama's lead up in wisconsin. >> yep. obama now leads romney by four points in wisconsin. republican has not won wisconsin in a presidential race since reagan in '84. okay. you saw mitt romney with the dry erase board and -- >> and the prison yard. >> and the prison. was anyone there? >> we don't know because the way it was set up. there we go. i don't know. the prison yard, seriously. >> it's the cactus, i like that. >> where is -- where is -- >> question from reporters on the issue of the candidate's personal taxes and once again became the focal point of the questions. especially around senator -- >> let's not talk about -- >> the former massachusetts governor may not have paid taxes for a decade. >> i just have to say, given the challenges that america faces, 23 million people out of work, iran about to become nuclear, one out of six americans in poverty, the fascination with taxes i paid i found to be very small mindedompared to the broad issues we face. i did go back and look at my taxes and over the past ten years, i never paid less than 13%. i think the most recent year is 13.6% or something like that. i paid taxes every single year. harry reid's charge is totally false. i'm sure waiting for harry to put up who it was told him what he told him. i don't believe it. every year i've paid at least 13%. if you add an addition the amount that goes to charity the number gets well above 20%. >> i was so bored that i don't know what he said, but the obama campaign -- >> but -- like attack him forever on this. >> listening to you complain about your coffee. >> liz smith responded saying in, quote, there is substantial reason to doubt his claims. >> calling him a liar. okay. >> we have simple message for him, prove it. brian sullivan. >> call him felon and now calling him a liar. >> is that enough? he paid. we're done, right, move that over, it's over because he said that? >> he said it, you know, it's now on national television program so to joe's point he's either lying or he's not. i have a feeling the obama backers will say he's lying, the republicans that support him will say it's out and we're going to end up where we began. it's not going to matter to the doubters out there anyway. it's like the republicans with obama's college transcripts. release them. we just want to verify you went to college. people will not believe it until you see. >> obama hasn't released a lot of things. >> yeah, he did. he ultimately got pushed into it. >> all this other stuff. >> a badge of honor. >> you deal with a lot of rich guys. you're cnbc. people come in -- >> he is a rich guy. >> gold bars that fall out of their pocket before they go on the set. >> the greeks. >> 13% tax rate plus he pays 10% to charity, probably paying more than most of the rich guys in your studio. >> look at the returns he paid in, he did give -- i don't understand about romney his lack of ability to deliver his own message well. if i was romney i would say, i've given millions to charity, millions to charity, which we're supposed to value in this country. >> revere. >> and the irs, our buddies, and their 77,000 page tax code have said if you give millions you can deduct. your net effective tax rate is going to come down. romney, this 13%, i mean to your point earlier, like is harry reid going to apologize? i don't know. >> no. i want to see harry reid tax returns for the past 80 years. >> $5.2 million in campaign spending so far, based on the average education costs that would school 50,000 students in the united states. when will we get a salary cap on presidential races. >> john heilemann. >> this is the hidden stimulus program, campaign spending. >> good for the economy. >> broadcasting business for sure. >> and fine corporations like comcast, very respectable -- >> good for the economy. >> you were shaking your head during the tax returns. >> i just -- >> is this enough or not? >> clearly is not going to go away because the point of disclosure is disclosure, not assertion. >> but why do you care? why do you even care? >> why do i even care? >> why do you care? >> because i think many people believe that presidential candidates should be transparent about where they earn their money, paid their taxes and law abiding citizens. >> he just said. >> he asserted that. >> you believe him or say he's a liar. >> i say he's not done what every other presidential candidate in the past. >> is there anyone else that said no -- >> i think the issue politically is the thing that's toxic about the romney tax returns that we've seen so far is not the percentage he's paid, the thing that's toxic for a lot of voters are swiss bank accounts, cayman islands, those in reality when you go out and talk to voters that is the thing that rings people's bells. people do not get upset about the fact he's paid 14 or 13%. >> really quickly, the standard, how many years did john mccain release four years ago? >> two, although he had done senate disclosure forms for 25. we had a pretty good window into his financial situation. >> is it the same thing, the senate disclosure. >> it's not the same but he did two years of federal tax returns and had 25 years of federal disclosure forms that as i said gave you a window -- >> it's far different. >> no. >> i've done those disclosure forms and it's basically did you make between 0 and $100,000 and 100 and $200,000 and $200,000 and $80 million. >> as i say, you had a window into mccain's finances you don't have into romney's. >> does your tax returns determine your ability to lead a nation. >> no. that's a ridiculous question. >> why is it ridiculous question? >> many voters want to know -- >> hang out with some republicans. they don't think that. they think this democratic thing is a complete waste of time. >> that's fine, but the truth is many americans judge things like character and one of the things that people judge about character is transparency, they want to know who you are as a person. >> exactly. >> you might not think it's relevant. it's not relevant what you think. people made judgments about who should be president on the basis of a lot of things. >> there are things we think are relevant that the candidates don't talk about and other shows don't either. >> nobody does. >> back to the next news story. just this morning, two u.s. service members have died after a local afghan police officer turned his gun on them. >> good lord. again. reported record year for inside attacks in which afghan forces have killed at least 37 coalition members. seven americans including two navy s.e.a.l.s were killed when their blackhawk helicopter crashed. u.s. officials say it happened during an intense battle with the taliban after the blackhawk had just dropped off reinforcements for ground troops. >> let's stop there. >> all right. >> richard, come on, man. what's the president thinking? i can say this was easy to see, that it was coming because we've been talking about it for three years. we talked ate it every day, americans keep dying. young kids keep dying in afghanistan. to what end? to what end? >> at the moment, there isn't an end that warrants the investment. we still have more than 80,000 american troops in afghanistan. we're now dying probably at the rate of 4 or 500 a year, more than 2,000 cumulatively have died there. and it's interesting, we're fighting the taliban. that's not the reason we went to -- >> it's not. >> we got rid of the government, we pushed al qaeda out, now we're essentially a protagonist in the afghan civil war. this will be endless and not have a lasting, i believe, enduring positive accomplishment. the investment we're making is not warranted. we should get down very quickly to a so-called residual force or get out. something we're going to do in several years ought to get to sooner than that and distance ourselves from what will be an open-ended afghan civil war. >> we've been saying this for years, dr. brzezinski, your dad, said this three years ago, the taliban is not al qaeda. al qaeda wants to blow up buildings in new york city and washington, d.c. the taliban wants to be left alone to run their government by second century standards. i mean, we -- this is such a classic overreach. young americans are dying every day because of it. >> it is overreach. what's going on in afghanistan, what's going on in iraq. these were two enormous wars of choice, two enormous efforts with the united states, but in hundreds of thousands of troops to remake the societies. iraq, sectarianism is continuing. afghanistan, essentially going back to being afghanistan. >> afghanistan you'll agree with me, did not start as a war of choice. that was a war of necessity. 85% of americans would have agreed with it. >> absolutely. >> we decided we were going to rebuild it. >> big decision made early in the obama administration to triple u.s. troop levels to take on the taliban, the united states became a central player, and afghanistan civil war. that was a mistake. it wasn't necessary. what we could do in afghanistan is similar to what we're doing in other places, use drone, special forces, do some training but we do not need to have tens of thousands of americans on the ground fighting a civil war. >> quickly, mika, also in syria, the united nations has decided they're going to just cut and run because it's turned into a civil war. >> yeah. the united nations peacekeeping forces say syrians have, quote, chosen the path of war and the last peace monitors in the country will leave by the end of the month. u.n. officials will meet to uds discuss if any hope for diplomacy can be saved. in iraq, insurgent violence left 55 dead in a single day. since the beginning of august, more than 150 people have been killed across the country in violence largely blamed on the group of iraqi's civil ranch. >> syria has chosen the path to war. we are in civil war now, right? >> absolutely. the opposition is making the gradual strides. they probably control at least half of the country, maybe more. i think the united states will continue to get gradually more involved, providing slightly more capable arms, but what we're facing in the future there, i believe, is prolonged sectarianism. the model, the template, is probably iraq. this is a society that has massive fault lines and the u.n. is essentially ending its peace monitor mission. the real question is whether the world is ever going to think about a peacekeeping or peace making mission. that would probably take 80, 100,000 well-armed troops. my hunch is the world does no, not have the stomach or capability to do this. the syrians have to sort this out on their own. >> i want to ask you about oil. a story in "the new york times" about saudi imports are growing in the u.s. we are increasingly reliant on saudi arabian oil imports. eight presidents in a row, republicans, democrats, doesn't matter, say we're going to reduce our dependence on oil. now it's 66%. the biggest oil field in saudi arabia is within walking distance of the bahrain border which has had sectarian violence. if we see a nameup in saudi arabia, gasoline will go to $10 a gallon in the united states. what's the risk? >> the risk is real, possibly because of bahrain, the reason the saudis intervened there, some ways the canary in the coal mine. the other an iran scenario. if they're attacked is to do mischief in the eastern provinces of saudi arabia of are. they don't have to block the straits of hor moez. e -- >> gas would go to 10. >> conceivably. saudi arabia i do not believe is long-term stable. what's happening in the arab world will spread to jordan and could spread spread to saudi arabia. this is a society that has major cleavages, plus in some ways reminiscent of the old soviet union. look at the saudi leadership, remember the old days towards the end, all these guys that came after, before gosh chev, that's where saudi arabia is. one after another after another, aging leader. this is not a society that is on a modern lasting trajectory. >> do you know who needs an aging leader? >> know what you're going to say. >> know who needs an aging leader? a leader that doesn't wear a hoodie? facebook. >> yes. >> i'm telling you. and we've said it a lot of people are saying it, wonder when somebody will have the guts to go to zuckerberg and say you need to step down as ceo. you can hang out like bruce wayne -- yeah bruce wayne, batman series, come into the board room every once in a while and look pretty and leave. >> all right. >> this guy is a disaster as a ceo and nobody's going to invest -- i mean this is a nightmare. >> facebook stock -- >> as you know from the beginning i was rooting for these kids. >> tumbled to a new low as early investors were allowed to sell their stock for the first time on thurps. they were prohibited until yesterday and many opted to cash out. facebook stock closed down at 6% to $19 or about half its ipo price in may. >> there's billions of shares out there which have yet to come on to the market. billions with a "b." >> mark zuckerberg lost about $600 million in personal wealth on the day's trades down to $10.2 million. during a meeting he reportedly conceded it may be, quote, painful to watch the stock at times so he knew. >> brian, when are they going to get a ceo to run the company? >> who will you get to run it? get people to click ads on this. that's the problem with facebook. everybody is accessing facebook on this. or the ipad or whatever. no roo for ads. i mean i don't know how zuckerberg is eating, $10.8 billion, how is he making it? >> kind of nice to lose $600 million net worth and still worth $10.2 billion. >> he can write that off. >> that's a rounding error on my net worth. >> and write that off. that's a tax loss, right? i'm calling right now for zuckerberg's tax returns. >> oh. >> he's going to pay 0 in tax -- >> his poor wife the basis for any alimony, she's now down like $20 billion. >> exactly. >> not going to get a dime. >> how do you -- small fortune, start out with a big fortune. >> we predicted it, richard. seriously, the -- just -- they need a ceo. >> just remember, your great hero, steve jobs, disastrous ceo of apple, they brought in outside management, john sculley, steve jobs gets kicked out of the company. you know, these guys, young guys, he's built an incredible thing on facebook and, you know, he may or may not be up to the job right now, but at that age, a guy like steve jobs had to go through, you know, getting kicked out of his own company by the board. people said the same things about him. he came back and became one of the great ceos in tech history. you know it's early to judge. >> john, i did not know steve jobs and steve jobs was no friend of mine but mark zuckerberg is no steve jobs. >> i just got lloyd benson. >> i don't know what that means. >> has a big idea. richard, i'm turning to you, he had the big idea, zuckerberg did. steve jobs just built an incredible company. >> steve jobs also had multiple ideas. he wasn't, if you will, a one dimensional person. there were five or six or seven break throughs. the question for facebook is whether they can make the transition to come up with a business model that will reassure the street. whether they can continue to adapt. there's competition out there, google plus and other things. and again, as i said, there's billions of shares yet to come on the market. >> what does that mean? >> insiders, unlocking their stock. every month 1.2 billion coming out before the end of the year. >> they're going to keep selling. >> this is going to go down to 3. >> when more of something it tends to be worth less. >> whether you can keep or track the talent you're going to need to help facebook recover. that's an issue whether to motivate people or attract the talent you want to make. >> what are they saying on the street? here i am, i know nothing, but when this was at 38 i said it was wildly overpriced. i'm just saying that's all. but no, what are they saying? is zuckerberg up to being ceo? >> oracle of westport. >> i'm making this up as i go. >> two points. is he up to being a ceo? we don't know. hasn't done much. people are frustrated by his lack of getting on conference calls, out in front of the media. he hasn't been able to deliver the message, right. he's romney-everything in that way. maybe he has a plan but can't verbalize. this is a terrible thing for the u.s. stock market. for ten years americans have been wiped out. basically no net real return over ten years. for the s&p 500. right. you've got people that distrust wall street, distrust the capital markets. whether you like it or not. a lot of teachers out there, lot of janitors in california schools, they're invested in facebook through the pension funds on the state level. >> right. >> and -- >> oh, yeah. >> this is a bad thing for the markets. another black eye. the markets already got three black eyes. don't know how long it can keep standing. >> that's not easy to have. >> steve jobs, though, also you're right, zuckerberg then, he's been nowhere. jobs, though, you know, he was a rock star. he would go out front, he would talk, he would -- i mean, when he sat there and told people where apple was going, the whole world stopped and watched. >> i think the point you've heard out here is legitimate that zuckerberg was riding high, everything went his way, had the ipo, things have gone the other way. can he learn, can he recover? we're going to find out what he's made out of. i'm not trying to say that the analogy is right. i'm going to say if you can take yo yourself back to 1984, '85, a young guy that started a great company but you looked at him, a kid, can't run this company and got kicked out and had to go off in the wilderness. we think of steve jobs in his glory years after he came back to apple. there was a tumultuous early period when the brilliant visionary was seen too immature to run the company and had to go grow up before he was able to take it to greatness. >> what you need to do a start-up is different than what you need to do to run a place. >> it would not be the first person in silicon valley or anyone else that couldn't go from a start-up to mature company. >> former presidential candidate tim pawlenty, moderator of "meet the press," david gregory, political analyst richard wolffe, and "washington post" eugene robinson. and mike allen and the politico playbook are next. bill karins -- >> he should run facebook. >> yes. >> learn how to do it like six months ago? i would invest if he were running the company. >> okay. i don't like the thought of him on facebook. that -- >> what's wrong with -- >> you have answered my friend request. >> pervert. that would be a no. >> all those pictures he sends. seriously. >> i know. like his wall -- >> stop with the pictures already. >> we don't want to see all of you on the wall. >> i thought i looked good at the pool. thought i was fine. all right. good morning, everyone. let me take you through your weekend forecast. that's a fall-like feel. happy to bring good news to the midwest. had your rainfall yesterday, now the cool, dry air, it is a picture perfect beautiful morning out there in so many spots. east coast, we have to wait, it's going to be a hot, humid day today, and as the weekend progresses the cooler air will move our way and lower humidity. i mentioned it's chilly. we're at 46 degrees right now in areas like fargo, we're in the 50s in kansas city and chicago and st. louis. areas that were so hot this summer, so that's why it's so refreshing out there. turn the air conditioning off. as i mentioned in the east there will be thunderstorms on that front, but not until late in the day. more or less towards the evening hours and dinner hour from d.c. to new york and baltimore and philly. as we go through the weekend, we will watch the cooler air. look at today, 74 and sunny in chicago with low humidity. we haven't had a day like this going all the way back probably to may or april. and saturday looks nice in the same spots. we'll clear it out ever so slowly in the east coast. your saturday afternoon will be nice. i think just about everyone will enjoy a very nice sunday. the exception is down along the gulf coast. that's where we're going to deal with some afternoon storms. i would say about 80% of us enjoy a fantastic break from that summer heat. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i've discovered gold. 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"the guardian," ecuador granted political asylum to wikileaks founder julian assange. he has stayed in their embassy in london for the last two months to avoid extradition. why am i yawning? >> trying not to go to sweden. what's wrong with him? over two separate sexual assault charges. that could be it. the incident that set up a stalemate over international diplomacy including reported threats from london to remove him forcefully from ecuador's embassy. from "the los angeles times," john heilemann's hometown newspaper, fires along the west coast have crews resorting to extraordinary measures. in los angeles they're going to begin night time helicopter missions to tackle the fires. the first time they've been allowed to do that in years. in washington state 60 homes have been wiped out so far by the fire. as a homeowner watched during a fire surround his home early in the morning, somehow it was spared. still standing, untouched. >> oh, my gosh. >> during the day. >> how does that happen? "the dallas morning news" a fight under way against the outbreak of the west nile virus. planes are spraying insecticide all over the county where ten people have died and 230 people have become sick. mosquito populations have swarmed this summer creating a record number of cases of the virus this year. >> from "the "boston globe"" another great white sighting near cape cod in sandwich, massachusetts. happening all summer up there. a fisherman came across this one about three miles off the coast. scientists estimate it was 12 feet long and suspect it was likely hunting seals and, yeah, all over the place. >> in this week's "parade" magazine from coast to coast, community gardens are sprouting up everywhere. an estimated 1 million from alaska to brooklyn. >> you know -- >> they are big -- >> john heilemann knows where this is going, has a community garden in brooklyn but it's not legal. he can't tell you what's growing. >> no. it's all for medicinal. >> medicinal. >> glaucoma. >> purely medicinal purposes. >> dr. heilemann. >> nothing illegal about my garden. >> growing their own food instead of thinking they can only get food from the grocery store when they don't understand where it comes from or how to make it themselves and organic and perfect. you're not growing -- >> good fodder for brownies. >> you say one thing, if you add up the shark story insecticide story fire story all three climate. climate change is real. that's -- it's connecting these stories. >> look at al gore at the end of our table. >> he's smart. >> he is smart. >> no the shark things -- can i ask, question, my wife and kids, like every night, watch -- >> shark attack. >> it's shark week. i'm like walking through like the living room all week, and the great white -- i mean all week. and it's like, hour after hour after hour and i got to admit you stop and look at it and you're like that's pretty cool. with these great whites can do, jump out. >> i like the one where they -- the big catch -- >> where they kill the person. >> "deadliest catch". >> that's good. >> where they kill the republican? >> wonder whether any of this would ever have happened if it wasn't for "jaws". >> no. >> the movie -- summer of 1975, there was some story and how that movie everyone in america for three solid months just watched "jaws" and one of those movies that still dominates people's consciousness about this thing. people are scared of sharks because of that movie. >> that was the first time that ever happened. that was the first time in the history of movies, that everybody stopped in the summer and you would go past theaters and the lines would be around the block. of course, it was spielberg. >> all summer long. >> spielberg wasn't spielberg until that movie. >> he sure as hell is better than zuckerberg. >> i remember senior soviet official telling me how they all liked the movie. i said why? it shows how you capitalists put profits before anything else. >> "jaws". >> why the soviets like the movie. >> soviets said that. with us chief white house correspondent for politico mike allen here with the morning playbook. topping the playbook, mitt romney and paul ryan spending more time together. >> oh. >> on the trail. >> uh-huh. >> how did that happen? >> true dat. but first happy friday. >> happy friday. >> and before we goat get to romney and ryan, something more durable than anything else we'll talk about today, a golden anniversary in the "morning joe" family. >> oh. >> married 50 years ago today, in yankton, south da cota meredith and mr. tom brokaw >> all right. >> 50. that's pretty good. >> wow. >> to meredith, not so good. for tom -- he drew an inside straight. great stuff. so, romney and ryan going to get together? >> yeah. mika, joe, they had planned for the two to go their separate ways until the republican convention in tampa, end of the month. figuring two is better than one. two fund-raisers, two people in swing states. but then the staff back in boston saw the television pictures of the two of them together. they saw the psychic lift, the being with paul ryan gave mitt romney. his friends tell us the sense of isolation he has in the bubble is eased when around paul ryan and saw their record crowds, the largest crowds of the campaign, and they said, we're not going to wait until tampa. >> good for them. >> monday we will see romney and ryan together at a town hall at saint ann's college in manchester, new hampshire. it's mitt romney's 100th town hall in new hampshire. and then we'll probably see them together again later in the week in the midwest. >> well, you know, john, this is the sort of thing you see when you watch tv and you can see very easy for us to see, we've seen from the beginning, they need to be together. it's not easy to change campaign schedules after they're set in stone. they need to be together. >> the same thing happened, i'll just preface this saying i'm not comparing paul ryan and sarah palin. same when she was put on the ticket. mccain suddenly, who had lack luster crowds for a long time got this boost of energy from her and mccain loved it. some nominees don't like to be overshadowed by their number two and kind of take umbrage at their number two, bigger draws than them. the bigger men, the ones that say there's a political plus here, get together on the same stage and get juiced by the fact they don't care why they're getting the crowds they're suddenly in front of 10,000 people, 15,000 people. romney i think is sucking up some of the energy. >> and sarah palin -- >> did that. >> same thing for mccain. >> tell us about the stand-ins chosen for debate prep. live this. >> we now know, we knew before that when president obama practices debate, the stand-in for mitt romney will be senator kerry. another massachusetts guy, somebody who's known romney for a long time, has been in presidential debates himself. and playing paul ryan when joe biden begins his debate prep, is ryan's counterpart on house budget committee, congressman chris van hollen, democrat of maryland, somebody who is using to sparring with ryan on the cameras and so knows his ticks and strong and weak points. >> who's going to play mitt romney. >> john kerry. >> we don't know who's going to be playing the debate roles for romney/ryan. we're told romney doesn't in his primary debates didn't really use stand-ins. he liked more of the tutor approach. that's already begun. they're setting aside spending a lot of time with mitt romney on debate prep. >> john kerry as mitt romney. i mean who would have ever seen that. >> what a stretch. >> what a stretch. who would have seen that coming up, considering everybody has called the republican party, called mitt romney the john kerry of 2012. >> oh, my god. >> makes the debate preparation easier. >> tvan hollen that's a good call. >> ryan sullivan takes us through sports. >> i am? >> yeah. >> you are now. >> you're hired. >> you've got a job. you've got to explain to us, what, mika? >> why this man is so angry. we'll be right back. ♪ don't our dogs deserve to eat fresher less processed foods introducing freshpet healthy recipes of fresh meat and fresh veggies so fresh the only preservative we use is the fridge freshpet fresh food for fido all right. let's get to sports. now we have exciting news in baseball. both big and small. first off let's start with the dodgers. they were in pittsburgh trying to wrap up their series. there was action off the field as well. look at that, matt kemp, getting in the face of umpire angel campos, don mattingly comes out. kemp has to be physically restrained. both were tossed. by the way, garret jones hit a three-run home run to put the pirates on top. yankees looking for the sweep against the hated texas rangers. i only say that because i'm an l.a. angels fan, right? yankees, down by two, andruw jones, look at that two-run bomb, game tied at 5 in the seventh. two outs. craig gentry comes up with a single in the middle. avoid the sweep. they beat the yankees 10-6. >> wow. >> all right. you want to check this out. we're going to move from the big leagues to the little leagues here. this is a scary moment at the little league world series. japanese pitcher, who stands 6 feet tall -- >> oh! what are you doing? >> show that again. >> the guys know this. the japanese pitcher is 6 feet tall, 200 pounds. >> come on. >> he throws effectively in the 90-mile-an-hour range. >> wait. >> come on. >> he sit -- >> the guy is not -- >> he is. >> the key word is equivalent. >> kid on the california team, 6'5". >> that is sedani. he was okay. i'll tell you what. in great sportsmanship, went to raphael, offering up his apology. raphael was fine. >> that guy is 42. he's not a little leaguer. he's like 42. >> this is what taiwan always used to do. >> a kid on the california team, who's 6'3", 185. >> we grow them big. >> and 12 years old. >> someone has to thaes kid for testosterone. >> might be a problem there. >> he's a big boy. there's your sports. i have a show on nbc sports tonight, 7:00. cnbc sports biz, game on, 7 to 7:30. >> is this your second one? >> it's like second or third. i've been doing business tv 15 years. fun to do something different. >> do you get nervous? no. do you bellow like this sports cast? >> stop it. >> i'm a bellower -- >> without the prompter. >> by the way -- >> do that without the prompter. you have to give this guy props. did that without the prompter. >> richard haass -- >> the japanese pronunciation right without the prompt ter. >> hold on one second, freak show. i have a point to make here. >> so the guy -- >> i forget his last name, the balco guy, comes out yesterday, like jose conseco did several years ago, said -- >> the guy who ran balco? the owner victor -- >> yeah. >> forget his last name. he says -- conti. says 50% of all players in baseball are juiced. that the drug tests are such a joke you do it in spring training, halfway through the season, and he says, that at least half the players are juiced. sounds just like what conseco said when everybody got angry but conseco was right. i think this guy is right too. >> human growth hormone. >> they don't test human growth hormone. >> you're probably right. so discouraging. go to cooperstown, there ought to be just sort of a plaque, sort of a disclaimer, half the people on the wall now are taking juice which is -- >> what's sad about it is, we're still in the steroids era. >> absolutely. >> we're still in the -- everybody's juiced out there. >> listen your need it for a three-hour newscast, all right. >> i do. i mean -- and i can see you've been taking human growth hormones too. >> talking about the gut? i got back from wisconsin. havi having broughtwurs for breakfast. >> balco, send me brautwurs. >> my code worth. >> up next, must-read opinion pages. we'll be right back. freak show. 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[ loud crack ] ♪ i'm only human at liberty mutual insurance, we get that it's tough out there, and our job is to make it less tough. that's the thing about humans. when things are at their worst, we're at our best. see how at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance -- responsibility. what's your policy? and also to build my career. so i'm not about to always let my frequent bladder urges, or the worry my pipes might leak get in the way of my busy lifestyle. that's why i take care, with vesicare. once-daily vesicare can help control your bladder muscle and is proven to treat overactive bladder with symptoms of frequent urges and leaks day and night. if you have certain stomach or glaucoma problems, or trouble emptying your bladder, do not take vesicare. vesicare may cause allergic reactions that may be serious. if you experience swelling of the face, lips, throat or tongue, stop taking vesicare and get emergency help. tell your doctor right away if you have severe abdominal pain, or become constipated for three or more days. vesicare may cause blurred vision, so use caution while driving or doing unsafe tasks. common side effects are dry mouth, constipation, and indigestion. i've worked hard to get to where i am... and i've got better places to go than always going to the bathroom. so take charge of your symptoms talking to your doctor and go to vesicare.com for a free trial offer. 49 past the hour. >> toledo shuffle. heard it a billion times. never gets old. >> boz skaggs, one of the great names in rock and roll. >> yeah. >> also a great one. >> time for the must-read opinion pages. >> i'm tired. don't even have the patience. i can't even like pretend. >> split screen this morning. >> don't listen to each other. he's talking i'm -- >> secret of a good relationship. >> apparently. all right. time for the must-read opinion pages. >> it's great! it's like running on empty. our "leila." these classic radio stations run them into the ground. who else is great every time, charles krauthammer. >> yes, he is. >> very nice of you. >> thank you very much. because i could sing this song all day. >> i thought you wanted to show the picture of the little man. >> do you have a picture of the little man? >> a picture of the little man and show it to everybody. >> all right. we're -- what? >> t.j., did you just say bill karins? what are you talking about? have you seen this guy -- >> said it without missing a beat. >> he's juiced. >> i didn't say that. >> you said that. wait a second, for you to say something nasty, show your face on tv. show your face on tv. >> he's -- >> come on, t.j. t.j. is not taking his picture. refuses. >> sorry. it takes time. >> he doesn't know where the button is. >> it takes time. >> been here for a decade. >> karins, not happy. >> he's facebooking. i defriended him. all right. >> bill, she just defriended you. >> no, i'm not going to do that. just friended you. >> no. nope. no can do. >> show the little man after krauthammer. >> quit yelling in my ear, tower. go ahead. >> tired. i have no control over this situation. >> here we go. >> romney's present, ryan's future. while ryan's effect on 2012 is as yet undetermined, it depends on the success or failure of medhi scare, less doubt about the meaning of ryan's selection beyond 2012. he could well become the face of republicanism for a generation. ryan's role is to make the case for a serious approach to structural problems, a hardheaded, sober-hearted conservatism that puts to shame a reactionary liberalism that, with greece in our future, offers had handouts, bromides and a 4.6% increase in tax rates. if ryan does it well, win or lose in 2012, he becomes a dominant national force, mild and moderate mitt romney will have shaped the conservative future for years to come. >> i want to make my case. i love krauthammer and paul ryan and embrace them wholeheartedly. you know, i'm ineloquent and sometimes a picture paints a thousand words. this is a point krauthammer was trying to make. >> put the picture up. >> the picture of the little man. >> now? >> you guys told me you had a picture of the little man. >> we got it right here. it's coming out right now. >> there it is right there. can you believe -- barry bonds. can you believe that? >> what are we doing? >> nothing to do with krauthammer. >> look at the little man. >> he's gotten into cycling. a pass near aspen, colorado, gotten crazy into cyclinging and that is barry bonds. he is tiny. >> not the cycling. >> he's off the juice. >> it's off the cycling. >> when barry bonds played with the pittsburgh pirates before he went on the juice, he was 185 pound athlete and then became a 235 pound monster and now back to his natural size, which is 185 pounds. >> look at a picture of the little man, richard haass, the great tragedy -- while we look at a picture of the little man means you keep the picture up while talking to richard haass -- thank you. because you got it, the great tragedy of this barry bonds story is, he was a 30/30 guy. 30 stolen bases, 30 home runs a year, even when he was at his natural size, he would have been in cooperstown. he was one of the great players of our time and he got greedy. >> asterisk next to his name and the question is whether someone like a-rod has some of the problems, 30/30 guy or -- >> everybody knows a-rod -- >> he watched the mcgwire/sosa home run chase and looked at those guys and said i want a piece of that. >> transformed himself the next year. >> a great, great player naturally. >> that was a fantastic must-read opinion pages segment. >> thank you, krauthammer for sparking that conversation. >> we'll be right back. when i found out my irregular heartbeat put me at 5 times greater risk of a stroke, my first thoughts were about my wife, and my family. i have the most common type of atrial fibrillation, or afib. it's not caused by a heart valve problem. i was taking warfarin, but my doctor put me on pradaxa instead to reduce my risk of stroke. in a clinical trial, pradaxa® (dabigatran etexilate mesylate) reduced stroke risk 35% better than warfarin. and unlike warfarin, with pradaxa, there's no need for regular blood tests. that's really important to me. pradaxa can cause serious, sometimes fatal, bleeding. don't take pradaxa if you have abnormal bleeding and seek immediate medical care for unexpected signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. pradaxa may increase your bleeding risk if you're 75 or older, have a bleeding condition like stomach ulcers, or take aspirin, nsaids, or blood thinners, or if you have kidney problems, especially if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all medicines you take, any planned medical or dental procedures, and don't stop taking pradaxa without your doctor's approval, as stopping may increase your stroke risk. other side effects include indigestion, stomach pain, upset, or burning. pradaxa is progress. having afib not caused by a heart valve problem increases your risk of stroke. ask your doctor if you can reduce your risk with pradaxa. better to defuse it. >> let's not talk about it. >> if you don't defuse it -- >> i don't want to talk about it. >> still ahead -- >> there's -- this is the second time in four years where i was the runner-up to be vice president on the republican ticket and i'm a little upset about it. it's like they always take the carrot. you know, i need to talk to somebody that understands the pain i'm feeling. >> former presidential candidate and surrogate tim pawlenty. up next political analyst richard wolffe. >> we'll preview the liverpool season straight ahead. conomy. but with three kids, being home more really helped. man: so we went to fidelity. we talked about where we were and what we could do. we changed our plan and did something about our economy. now we know where to go for help if things change again. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get free one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. [ male announcer ] it started long ago. the joy of giving something everything you've got. it takes passion. and it's not letting up anytime soon. at unitedhealthcare insurance company, we understand that commitment. and always have. so does aarp, an organization serving the needs of americans 50 and over for generations. so it's no surprise millions have chosen an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement plans, they help cover some of the expenses medicare doesn't pay. and save you up to thousands in out-of-pocket costs. to find out more, request your free decision guide. call or go online today. after all, when you're going the distance, it's nice to have the experience and commitment to go along with you. keep dreaming. keep doing. go long. to go along with you. ♪ [ acou[ barks ]ar: slow ] ♪ [ upbeat ] [ barks ] beneful playful life is made with energy-packed wholesome grains... and real beef and egg. to help you put more play in your day. this is a nice spot. i know there's a an effort by some people to try to bring as much confusion to the topic of medicare as possible, but i want to bring as much clarity as possible so i've prepared a small chart here which will describe differences in our respective plans for medicare. my plan presents no change. >> i'm -- >> oh, my lord. what's going on here? >> my plan stays the same. >> i have presented a local chart here. >> he must travel with this thing. i don't know. i know that mike beaver had no part in prepping this. >> yeah. >> oh, god. >> oh, no. >> is that a term perot ve yan? per wrote-esque. >> the inmates have broken out. they were bored. >> it's his cactus i like best. >> what's going on? >> the images of specifics when there are none. >> i remember going to a romney event in 2008 where he did a power point presentation to talk about his economic plan and i thought you are a presidential candidate, it was literally a power point presentation and this is whack, now he has a white board and same thing. >> whose idea was this? >> the candidate. >> and the question answers itself, doesn't it? >> he's on the plane saying guys, you know, this explains it. look look at this. i should just go out and do this. boss, that's a great idea. >> this is what i did all the time at bain. i've just got to explain it. >> i'm going to turn my back to the cameras and write like this. >> on a white board. >> no change. >> inside of an 8 foot steal fence with a fake cactus behind him. >> how much are they getting paid? >> only the candidate could come up with something this bad. >> that's great idea, boss. >> joe, you could write a book and put that on the cover and the book called "stage craft as soul craft." >> mika -- >> we have a lot to talk about and i'm going to just -- we're going to do a lightning round with you, richard. >> okay. >> facebook. >> yeah, mark zumer burg step down? >> no. he's a genius? >> what. >> he's created something out of nothing. the whole taking a company in this massive growth chart, taking it public. >> yeah. >> growth is the most dangerous thing they can do and they've screwed it up. >> right. >> he's the owner. he's the controlling figure. >> he got a big idea. >> he's the driving force. >> he said, let's do something -- >> they took the company public too late. you buy growth on wall street, right? they already had 900 million users. facebook needs to pay a dividend. >> what's the future? >> they need -- >> they're old tech already. >> we're all doing this. all doing this. and facebook really is -- >> what's the future of facebook on? they need the ceo to answer that. >> this is the thing, mark zuckerberg for a long time resisted going public because he didn't want disclosure, wanted to stay private, delayed it as long as possible and some ways missed the right time to have gotten public. his pension for secrecy and wanting to keep things shut down meant he didn't get out when he should have gotten out when the company was in its most explosive years ago. >> he would have had a lot of growth. >> it's literally costs him tens of millions of dollars. >> and the state of california. >> another story out there is afghanistan. early this morning, news breaks two more americans were killed when afghan police officers turned their guns on them. seven americans killed yesterday. we went in to fight al qaeda. we're now fighting a civil war against the taliban. >> right. >> how long do we stay in an unwinnable war? >> we're not there for afghanistan anymore we're there for pac pakistan. we're in the wrong country. like being in iraq to deal with iran. how long? a couple years. i don't think there's any question when you look at what the allies are saying, when you look at the politics in this country, when you look at what we can afford this is going to wind down quickly. what is the political downside? does the president want it to unwind down quickly? >> yes. >> why did he triple -- he's going to be judged by the history books like bush is going to be judged harshly for decisions in 2002. why did barack obama listen to his generals in 2009 and triple the number of troops in afghanistan? why did he transform this war? >> i think it's very hard for -- we often say the politics comes into this, but i think it's hard for a newly elected democratic president with little experience in executive office to say, i'm coming in and i'm going straight out. >> oh, lord. >> he had to make the best of it and try. at that point, we hadn't got bin laden, right? so the al qaeda threat, the seeper leadership, his commitment to get them was still out there. he had to prove that. that does change the game. >> and remember he ran in 2008, explicitly on the notion that iraq was the wrong war and afghanistan the right war. that was the war we should have fought so it would have been hard for him having run that way to come in and then try to peel out of both countries simultaneously without risking looking like a weak democrat. >> right. >> richard, you're exactly right. republican could have done it. >> yes. >> i remember telling all of our friend -- >> would have done it. >> don't listen to the generals. don't listen to them. but my point was, a republican can do that. a -- like you said, a young democrat, coming into office, it's harder to tell the generals no, we're not listening to you anymore. >> there's a real national security threat, though, from al qaeda's core leadership that's gone. that's what's different. the war -- >> it's scattered from. >> the war from counter terrorism to counterinsurgency to a giant nation building exercise in a country that was never a nation. it's not the same war. >> and mika, i've told the story quite a few times, i remember in 2005 asking a special ops guy, flying from pensacola to atlanta, he was hopping to afghanistan, i said we keep hearing we can win afghanistan if we just get out of iraq and move the troops over. i was making the argument myself at the same time, the guy looks at me, no fan of bush, goes yeah, we can do that, but we got to move the troops into pakistan. this was in 2005. >> we still don't know what it is -- >> afghanistan is not a nation. >> to win. >> no political end. who do you negotiate with. i understand the government, karzai, i get that. history is riddled with western powers that have tried to dominate afghanistan and the region. it's never happened. >> it's that country, it's not -- they're going to be there long after we're gone. >> i love your point about pakistan. >> it's pakistan. >> i look forward to the debates to hear the candidates actually talk about this. >> they won't. >> it's not something they want to talk about at all. >> the problem is, mitt romney and paul ryan want to actually stay there longer. >> longer. >> barack obama's policy for the past four years, i think, has been disastrous. mitt romney's and paul ryan's somehow takes a disastrous foreign policy and makes it worse. >> pure return to neocon -- >> you know, what -- the reason we got so passionate and heated about this tax rate issue, i'm not defending romney or his tax rate or whatever, my frustration, i've said it on this program, is why is this the centerpiece of the conversation when american women and men are dying in afghanistan? right? we've got 14 million unemployed. we've got an 8.2% jobless rate. 46 million people -- >> democrats are -- >> millions of foreclosures and yet what we're talking about is the tax rate. >> democrats would answer that by saying, why are republicans talking about welfare reform, we'll continue this debate, but first -- >> i haven't heard specifics from the republican side. with 81 days to go until the election, the race for the white house has hit a staggering milestone. spending on campaign advertising has now crossed the half billion dollar mark. that's about the same amount that was spent on the entire 2008 general election, according to analysis by the nbc news political unit. spending from outside groups like super pacs account for almost half that money. however, 86% of all outside money goes to boosting the romney campaign that's $205 million compared to just $33 million from pro obama groups. >> this shows how isolated we are in manhattan. >> that's scary. >> and washington. in that we don't see those -- we don't see those romney ads. we see the mitt romney killed my wife ad, but people in ohio and florida and nevada and these swing states, are getting hammered with these ads. >> and sick of it. >> they're sick of it. >> that money is buying them absolutely nothing and they are -- it's sick. let's face it. it's sick. what could that money buy in the real world. how many schools could it build? >> oh, my lord. >> jobless people could you -- >> anyone who -- >> put back to work. >> on politics either side that's a waste of money. >> sports, which is fun but not important. >> yeah. >> has a salary cap. i am calling for a salary cap on political spending right now, why not? >> i was just going to say, good luck. >> good luck. >> mika, a new poll also out in wisconsin. >> this is interesting. given the choice of paul ryan, shows that in his home state it's helped romney close the gap. obama now leads romney by 4 points in the badger state. a republican has not won wisconsin in a presidential race since ronald reagan back in 1984. >> i love paul ryan, you know i love paul ryan. i love the guy. but the only thing he does as far as wisconsin goes is he puts it in the pennsylvania category which i've always called fool's gold for republicans. mitt romney is not going to win wisconsin. >> if you look at 2004 and 2000 the margins in those two elections in the kerry -- kerry and gore lost very, very -- won very, very narrowly. 2008 was a little bit of an outlier. wisconsin is probably a more gettable state, i'm not saying it's gettable, but probably a more gettable state than michigan. >> a more gettable state if you don't have mitt romney's personality. >> i totally agree. i'm with you as far as out of reach as pennsylvania. ryan helps him a little bit there. again they picked the right senate candidate the republicans did. >> chris christie -- >> there's a pretty strong ticket in wisconsin but i don't know -- let's wait and see if the romney campaign starts spending money in wisconsin. the moment they start spending money in wisconsin. they're not spending money so they don't think it's winnable. >> i go to wisconsin all the time. i have a family -- >> you go a lot. >> i did my show monday from green bay. >> bratwurst boy. >> good stuff. >> i spoke to the camera operator i said who are you going to vote for. he said i don't know. i said you're probably the only one that doesn't know. i said does the selection of ryan change your decision? he said he's a good guy but i don't think it's going to sway me. ryan is from janesville which is the biggest gm plant in america, it's idsled, not completely closed officially. remember he was pro auto bailout. they're hoping to capture maybe the -- some of the people that are center left, maybe a little pro labor, but yet, but like his conservatism from a political or social perspective. >> but his boss wanted the industry to go bankrupt. a little problem. >> there is that. >> also, romney just doesn't have the profile to win wisconsin. reagan does. a chris christie does. i mean you get a northeast catholic like that would go in there, and he would sweep it. mitt romney doesn't have what it takes. >> the white board. >> to win wisconsin. >> that's a milwaukee thing. a bar, a church and a white board. that's how it is. that's milwaukee. every time you go there. >> had he put something on -- yeah. had he put something on the white board. >> me good, him bad. >> okay. >> yesterday, paul ryan was forced to clarify his comments over his record with stimulus money. >> what? what do you mean? >> it began when he told an abc station he never asked for any. >> that's good. because he's against the stimulus. >> small government conservatism, who takes stimulus money. >> i would not. >> i know you wouldn't. >> report came out in the app, a repeat of the "wall street journal" article from a couple years ago where you had asked for stimulus money for your district. is that accurate? is that report accurate? >> i never asked for stimulus. i haven't seen this report. i can't comment on it. i opposed the stimulus because it doesn't work, didn't work. >> later in the day the young gun turned vice presidential candidate admitted he had forgotten about letters he wrote energy secretary steven shoo offering support for projects in wisconsin. >> stop making that sound. okay. >> you know, he forget. >> it happens. >> hadn't read the report. >> he didn't recall and hadn't read the report. >> ryan said they were constituent service requests which is why he said he didn't remember. now he says he should have handled them differently. >> he's a guy from wisconsin, he likes bratwurst and therefore pork and wanted some stimulus. >> don't don't don't -- >> just a transient -- >> you can't lump wisconsin all into one place. you're right. milwaukee is fantastic. lavern and shirley. where i go is near canada, up near canada -- >> this guy, it's like when cliff clay ven went to florida and came back to "cheers" and all they did was talk about florida for the entire episode. >> i'm trying to give props to the people -- >> you're making me tired. i'm not going to lie. >> making me thirsty. talking about bratwurst make me think about -- >> you know the thing is -- the thing is, that paul ryan did what every other congressman does, they voted against a bill and then asked for stimulus money. >> right. >> it happens. but i think the way to handle it would have been to say, well, i voted against it, but i'm not going to have my taxpayers pay into the government and have everybody else get their money. but he denied it at first and it didn't work. >> he was for it after he was against it. i mean -- >> that's not -- it's not -- he's -- his whole brand i'm the serious guy, i'm the guy who's consistent, ideologically on spending and budgets. this just isn't consistent and not serious. that's his problem. >> supposed to be a man of courage and tough choices. you know. >> you say that mockingly. >> no, i just say the man of courage and tough choices that explanation doesn't work as well for that man. >> i bet you don't know a single brooklyn hipster voting for mitt romney, do you? >> i have not done any polling in williamsburg, but i will today. i'll stand on the corner and see if i can find a romney voter there. >> you are in a hazy bubble. >> how are your neighbors in connecticut voting for mitt romney? >> i've never said on tv -- >> is it always like this. >> is it always like this. >> i live on the upper west side. >> not a whole lot. >> not a whole lot. they're not all stoned like your friends -- >> good point. >> how do you ride a bike on such skinny tight jeans. don't understand how they do it. >> if you read "gq" you'll see that leads to some problems. >> what are you talking about? >> coming up next, preview of "meet the press" with moderator david gregory, not talking about skinny tight jeans. also "the washington post" eugene robinson, he is. keeping a scorecard at home, you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. at purina one, we believe small things can make a big difference. like how a little oil from here can be such a big thing in an old friend's life. we discovered that by blending enhanced botanical oils into our food, we can help brighten an old dog's mind so he's up to his old tricks. it's just one way purina one is making the world a better place... one pet at a time. discover vibrant maturity and more at purinaone.com. ooo no. the hotel lost our reservation. nonsense! you book at travelocity, your reservation's guaranteed. well, i did not book with travelocity, okay?!? 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[ yawning sound ] not that day was all smooth sailing, as romney's son matt explained at first everyone was pretty stiff and quiet, but they became fast friends. at which point, everyone was pretty stiff and talkative. now, these men quickly bonded over their mutual interests, as ann romney explained, they're able to communicate on this very intellectual policy-wong level. no surprise, these two really like policy. mitt added, i like policy. and -- when asked what books he reads, ryan said, i read policy. clearly they're perfect for each other. right now, they're sharing their deepest, inner most policies with one another and if we elect them, they may even share those policies with us. >> wouldn't that be nice. joining us now, at 22 past the hour, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. and in washington, pulitzer-prize winning columnist and associate ed tor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. we got this in from the the obama campaign. >> yes. >> the manager jim messina is making an offer to the romney team. >> this will settle this. >> exactly. >> the offer regarding the former governor's tax returns in a letter to matt rose, romney's campaign manager, messina offers a guarantee if romney releases five years of returns then the obama team promises not to criticize him for not releasing more. >> there's a subsequent letter, if that's not good, if you'll just move your head five inches to the right we'll beat you there over the head but only for five times. >> exactly. >> what, is this their way of just keeping it in the news or what do we got here, david? >> taxes, taxes, i think that's all they want to talk about today and for as long as they can. the idea they can shine a spotlight on a guy under the best of circumstances paid about 13% in income tax f that's the full -- i guess there's questions about what he paid if they can open up the books and spend as much time on his financials, it makes the case he's out of touch and on and on. >> they would love to that. >> that he's out of touch. he's rich, doesn't get you, and, you know, make it about his personal biography and not about the economy or anything else. they would like to do that. >> they also want to try to link this up. to what the argument is going to be going forward which is an argument about tax policy. >> right. >> they want to lay this predicate down to say, this is a rich, out-of-touch guy, who wants to cut taxes for rich out-of-touch guys and want to have that argument because they think they win the tax policy argument against the ryan budget and against what romney's proposing. >> they don't want to talk about all the people -- that tim times article you were reading the jobless -- >> oh, my gosh. long-term unemployment. >> is horrific, economy stagnant. don't want to talk about your record. want to talk about the other guy if you're suffering through a great recession. >> well, you want -- you don't want this election to be a referendum on obama's success or failure and economic policy or on the obama presidency, you want it to be a choice. and so if -- i think jim messina is quite happy that the election has become more of a choice and they've been able to put the spotlight on romney and his personal finances, which, you know, now granted, romney is helped in this effort, but i'm sure they're very happy at that. >> yeah. >> fair enough, i guess. >> you know what he needs to do, i think, to take care of this. >> what? >> david gregory, i think he needs to hold a press conference and have a white chalkboard. >> you know -- >> worked for your predecessor. >> florida congressman -- >> in a prison yard. >> right. >> in a strip mall. strip mall prison yard. big cactus. >> this had to be the candidate's idea, right? this had to be the candidate's idea. >> i know, let's do -- >> sounded better at 40,000 feet. >> is it possible we didn't show enough of the video and he put specifics on that board? >> you got to support -- any candidate who's -- this is the strength of his, he can go out -- i think that part is not a bad idea. a mixed message where he starts talking about the tax rate, but with this -- with the medicare landscape going out there and -- >> what? >> yeah. >> yeah. you're right, on his white board. >> not a phony thing. medicare is hard to explain. >> and he just didn't get anywhere in explaining it. he made it harder. he literally wrote in that chart, me, good. not literally. he said me solve, him bankrupt. which is -- >> that's it. why do you have to write that? >> you know this, i love -- my opponent is evil and wants to kill small children. we have a different approach. >> so seniors -- >> gene -- >> gene, "the new york times," not "the new york times," actually our network, nbc news, political unit is reporting that we reached a milestone today. we've spent more money this year already on political ads than in all of 2008 and 2008 was a record-breaking year. where does this end? >> who knows. it's incredible. and you know, you may not get it in manhattan but here in the d.c. area, you know, in virginia being a swing state, we are inundated. we are inundated 24 hours a day with the crossroads ads and romney ads. incredible. >> gene, that has to break up your georgetown cocktail parties to have those ads coming on. america is suffering. >> what will you do between drinks. >> we have viewing parties to watch this stuff. joe, my prediction is that when romney actually breaks down and brings out the power point, that's the tipping point in the election. he cannot win if he actually uses power point and goes beyond the white board to power point. he might. >> i've seen him do it. >> david gregory, want to read this. a great comment from jim routenburg, "new york times" lowest common denominator election. for two minutes talk last weekend the debate dominating the presidential race would take on a more elevated tone now that mitt romney had selected paul ryan as his running mate. it hasn't elevated the tone of the election. the thinking was the two presidential candidates with harvard degrees would finally use their intellectual prowess to discuss the nation's challenges seriously. goes on to say, then tuesday, and wednesday, and thursday, happened. he goes on to talk about the president talking about see muss the dog, mr. romney accusing the demeaningless office, hate and born in chicago, said we're all sliding down the banister and he's right. >> even i got caught up in this, linking douglas, going to break out on the street corners. people were going to, you know -- >> challenging us? >> you know, talk of vouchers and premium support in the air. >> yeah. >> you're a weird guy. >> i am. it's a washington thing. couple quick points on this. i think the romney campaign season opening to attack obama's character, going after him as a campaign of hatred, on disrespecting the presidency, if they can try to dig in to his likability, i think it's a huge issue. the second point is, i don't think this policy debate is dead by any stretch. we're in a lot of background noise period of summer. get beyond the conventions into the actual presidential debates i think there's going to be a big spotlight focused on some very big issues from simpson-bowles to medicare to tax policy and there will be a very definite debate and big choices we face. in the middle is a campaign -- >> john, we've been talking about how barack obama wants to focus on the personal of mitt romney, bain, tax returns. mitt romney has even more of an incentive to do that because you look at every poll, americans really don't support a lot of the president's policies but they like him as a man. >> huge asset. >> going after that this week was a turning point when he starts talking about a campaign of hate. >> yes. >> and division. >> you remember for like about a year, romney's -- the basic undercurrent he would bring this up, say this line about how the president is a nice guy, he's just in over his head. that was their line for a while. that went away. >> it worked. >> went away a couple months ago. ask people around romney why it went away. nice guy in over his head. because there's a time that's going to come when we're not going to want to call him a nice guy. >> right. >> they were starting to make that judgment which was that you couldn't reinforce the notion that he was a nice guy because the nice guy thing was the biggest asset the president had. they were going to have to go at this personal stuff. had to go at that strength. likability in all of the personal attributes shares your values, understands the real lives of real people, those are what is keeping the president afloat. >> so, richard wolffe, i'm just trying to think of the things that they're using to try to make him look and i'll use mitt romney's words angry. they're attacking the vice president's gaffe on chains. a super pac ad. i mean what else do they have that even gets close to actually president obama's character and why wouldn't -- this is going to have you think counterintuitively, why wouldn't they go after the current jobs situation? isn't that just -- it's sort of like the tax returns are really something the obama campaign can really talk about, about mitt romney, and it's safe, it's not ugly, and it's real. and the job situation, you look at every newspaper, and this is something that's real that they can talk about, not a gaffe or an ad that they didn't create or something. is there something else i'm missing? >> so i think -- you're absolutely on point here. they are trying to still run effectively a primary campaign. they are speaking to their base. the angry stuff works for their supporters. paul ryan works for the base. >> i think that's not a good word to use. >> but that's not where they need to be right now but that's what they still need to do. the problem in trying to go after the president's character, he spent four years establishing it. they weren't saying he's a nice guy because they wanted to be nice. they're saying he's a nice guy because that's what the polls say, focus groups say. they are just mirroring everything the focus groups say and that's why people think it works in some of these -- and still putting up these ads. >> you can drive up negatives in a shorter period of time. look what the obama campaign did to romney with their negative ad -- >> the fact that he's a new candidate, the president you've had four years to establish what people think about his character, very, very hard to undo now. >> gene robinson, mika brought up angry, suggested there's racial overtones, angry if you use it against an african-american candidate i think that's demeaning to african-americans because you can't use the same words for african-americans than for all other candidates but we'll let voters and people in the mainstream media decide that, if somebody accuses me of killing their wife and a campaign -- one of the campaign's closest aides running that ad, can i not say it's an angry, ugly campaign? or does that make me a racist? >> that makes me an angry black man. >> gene robinson, i'm going to have to advise you wear pastels, keep your voice low. no. but let's address that issue. >> look, romney can take great umbrage at that and come back. i don't think it's -- it's out of bounds in any way for him to say d call president obama angry if he wants to. the question is whether that has credibility. i think most people don't see him as an angry person, quite the contrary. most people see him as a nice guy. >> his base is actually angry with him for not being angry enough at republican -- seriously. what have we heard gene, time and time again from the president's own base. >> he ought to hit back. >> hit back. >> get in their face. >> this is not about anger as much as casting president obama -- and i agree with richard, hard to undermine kashg ter, what they can do in a shorter period of time say this is not the guy you elected in 2008. he is now a typical gutter politician who will do what it takes to get elected. >> that is most -- >> the bes code word i heard all week, hear these things, chicago. chicago. he's an ugly -- from the mayor -- >> old chicago. >> old man bailey in 1968 and blagojevich -- >> the worst thing you can be is a typical politician. >> and that's what -- >> we have a choice between two typical politicians, which one will you choose the guy who's president or the guy who says elect me i'm just another gutter politician. that is not a great choice. choice between bad and bad is not just depressing for everyone, in the end it's going to favor the incumbent. >> depends on what the jobless report looks like in october, depends on -- you know, this campaign seems to be lining up so much, gene, and i'm sure you're reporting on it in 1980, may have been over in london at the time, so much like the '80 campaign in that it's neck and neck, neck and neck, people don't remember -- i remember reading a "time" magazine article on friday in 1980, and it was deadlocked. that race was deadlocked until jimmy carter saw the sunday morning and knew he was going to lose to reagan. >> the debate. >> even the friday before the election, gene, it was every poll showed it was deadlocked. >> but there was a sense -- i was here for that campaign. i had just started at the post and i remember i went on a couple weeks earlier, i went on a campaign trip with vice president mondale and he knew, he knew what was about to happen. so it had started to break. your point is well taken. this race could very well break one way or the other point devicisive decisively, it doesn't necessarily have to be neck and neck on election night. there's plenty of time for events or for -- mistakes or just popular sentiment to break one way or the other. >> you know, the feeling among republicans, the feeling among conservati conservatives, john, is that barack obama would be jimmy carter and this would break for romney at the end, if this weren't romney as the republican nominee. if you had somebody that could relate to blue collar catholics in wisconsin, that could relate to people in the pennsylvania suburbs, mitt romney's just not that guy. he never will be. >> that's certainly true. i think there's also -- look, the big difference between this and 1980 the undecided -- the pool of undecided voters is small. we're talking about maybe 4%, maybe less, of the electorate actually undecided and among those who have a preference, they're not open to changing their minds. it's like very -- one in ten i think right now has any possibility of changing. so, there was a bigger crop, double that size, of undecideds going into the first presidential debate in 1980. 8 or 9 or 10% of the electorate undecided than 3 or 4%. that's why you get to what richard is talking about, both sides being about motivating their base, turning out their people and not trying to persuade the people. there is no middle left anymore. >> david gregory who do you have on "meet the press"? >> we'll talk about the ryan feblgts at the end of the first week on the campaign trail. governor owe mail from maryland and governor from virginia on where the campaign is going. >> we'll be reading your column in the washington post. >> gene, i'm your media guy. just little less of the temper. just keep it down. >> god. >> i have a chart here. >> yeah. >> small chart i would like to show. >> yeah. >> love it. earth tones. >> still ahead, former presidential candidate tim pawlenty. bloomberg looks at obama and tax plans and whether either will dig us out of debt. >> no? >> and when. >> much more "morning joe" when we come back. le aouncer ]avto regaer gam e t es yrm a atio welcome back to "morning joe." quick weather update. dare i say could this be the last 90 degree day of the summer for new york city? who knows. looking like it's going to be a hot one for the mid-atlantic, east coast and big cool down in the midwest comes our way. let's talk about that cool down. many people are reaching out to me this morning from the midwest and telling me how perfect it feels out there this morning. low humidity, temperatures dropped 10 to 20 degrees from this time yesterday. we are in the 40s right now in denver. i mean, it's been an incredibly hot summer in denver. roll the windows down, suck this up and enjoy it. it's heading through chicago and indianapolis during the day and weekend. unfortunately, down along the gulf coast, looks like where it's going to be the stormiest this upcoming weekend. break down your forecast today. those thunderstorms from d.c. to new york will be late this evening. during the daylight hours you're dry. look how perfect, just pinpoint chicago, kansas city and st. louis, gorgeous today. as we go through saturday, continuing to dry and beautiful. unfortunately we're still very hot in the west too. up until about saturday. then sunday we cool off there. i know the big story has been the fires out there the last couple days. pretty nice weekend forecast. up next on "morning joe," josh green. stay tuned. i knew it'd be tough on our retirement savings, especially in this economy. but with three kids, being home more really helped. man: so we went to fidelity. we talked about where we were and what we could do. we changed our plan and did something about our economy. now we know where to go for help if things change again. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get free one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. it's time to live... wider awake. only the beautyrest recharge sleep system combines the comfort of aircool memory foam layered on top of beautyrest pocketed coils to promote proper sleeping posture all night long. the revolutionary recharge sleep system from beautyrest... it's you, fully charged. receive up to a $300 beautyrest visa prepaid card when you buy select beautyrest mattress sets. all right. joining us now from washington, senior national correspondent for bloomberg business week, joshua green to discuss the latest issue of the magazine on newsstands now. good to have you. >> good to be back with you guys. >> we have this great piece in bloomberg businessweek by brendon greeley. >> it is a great piece. >> one thing romney and obama agree on big government. i'm going to read a portion of it. we're told that this election presents voters with a stark choice between two very different visions of government -- one that is active on behave of its citizens and one that gets out of the way. that's true. yet neither offers a credible way to stop borrowing money to pay for what he wants to do. instead, voters must choose between a democrat with a detailed budget plan that can't pass in congress and doesn't really attempt to unwind the spending and a republican challenger with a budget plan that lacks details, can't pass in congress and unwinds the spending with magic. both candidates fear the candidates will punish anyone who takes away what has been given so freely for the last ten years. obama addresses this by not doing it. a best guess at mitt romney's paul ryan's budget shows they will address this by pretending to do it. both would have us continue to amass debt to enact their ideas of what the economy needs, tax cuts or investment. in that way our stark choice is really between two different versions of large government. >> what a great -- >> gosh. >> what a great column, josh. talk about it. >> i wish i had written it. isn't it terrific? >> it is great and it is -- benefit of being true. >> i'm force nate to be colleagues with brendan greeley but the point he makes gets missed in the back and forths and ads and attacks that this really isn't -- the campaign isn't a debate between two visions of government, one large, one small. it's really how do you prefer to borrow a lot of money, shift it around, and then not pay it back. and the romney and ryan budget would put a little bit more towards tax cuts, obama budget would also cut taxes a little bit, but would, obviously, do more spending and investing. the point that brendan makes in the column is that neither of these fixes the debt problem that we have and, in fact, congressional budget office has gone in and determined that if we were to simply sit by and do nothing at all we would get rid of more debt than we would by following either of these two guy's plans. >> how depressing is that. seems to me, democrats talk about the bush tax cuts and war. republicans talk about pbs and entitlements once in a while, though they don't anything about entitlements. and as this piece points out, it's everything. it's everything and that's why we can't get a grand bargain. >> yeah, that's right. a lot of what is talked about is on the margins. even mitt romney came out the other day and had said, well, s some cuts i'll detail. we'll get rid of amtrak and pbs, big bird is going to have to get by on his own. these are drops in the ocean of this sea of debt that isn't going away. >> you have to hit those issues. i liked your point. josh's point as well. talking about these little things. because when you actually look at the number, when you actually look at the debt, there's billions and billions of stars. you can't comprehend the size of the universe. i don't think we can comprehend the size of the debt. >> there was a bank robber -- >> where's the money? the money is not in pbs. the money is not at big bird. it is entitlements and tax reform. >> and middle class tax rates on a federal income tax level have come down by 50%. that's the dirt it secret neither candidate will say because they need the middle class but the data is irrefutable. >> what about middle class entitlements, medicare part d? it's the same thing. >> if you make $100,000 a year in the united states, and have two kids and own a home, it's likely you pay zero in income tax. net federal with those deductions. right? so neither candidate's willing to tell the truth, i don't think, about the state of the economy and as long as the chinese, the japanese, the germans and our own federal reserve are willing to buy u.s. debt -- because remember, we're buying our own debt through the fed. that's what quantitative ease something. print money, buy our own debt. as long as that happens, we're fine. the minute somebody wakes up and says u.s. debt has lost its debt and bond yields spike, then we're in trouble. and that may never happen. >> we all know this is a huge problem. the challenge to understanding this though rests will wall street because these are guys who make their money, invest their money and other people's money in valuing the paper issued by the united states treasury. and right now what they're see something they have confidence in the united states treasury. in this administration and other administrations moving forward -- >> no, no. the federal reserve is buying the debt -- >> that's not setting the market price for u.s. treasury. >> yes it is, absolutely it is. >> okay. so the bond market and its enormous size can swamp. whatever the federal reserve is doing right now. you know that. >> no. the federal reserve with qe is big enough to move the needle. >> let's bring in josh quickly. right now, we've got the honor of being the tallest building in schenectady. we look at what's happening in europe, you look at what's happening in vine. it's not like there are a lot of other great places to put your money. >> no, that's true. i think in the short term that's a good point. if we get back to talking about the ryan budget, romney budget and the obama budget, a lot of these entitlement cuts are ten years in the future. these aren't things that take effect right away. even by that kind of ratcheted-back basis, it is sort of depressing what happens. one of the points brendan makes in this piece is that there are some real savings in the ryan budget. one of them, for instance, is the $716 billions in medicare that's being debated right now. problem is, ryan just switched his position on that and decided that now that he's mitt romney's running mate he doesn't want to cut that money after all. we're not moving in an encouraging direction, at least as far as the debt reduction standpoint. >> all right, we're going to look for the latest issue of "bloomberg business week." josh green, thank you very much. richard wolfe, thank you as well. >> let's go reds, this weekend! let's hope we walk with some better players over the next campaign. >> who do we open with? >> i don't know. what do i know? it's still august. we'll be right back. humans -- even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans. which is why, at liberty mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? why not take a day to explore your own backyard? with two times the points on travel, you may find yourself asking why not, a lot. chase sapphire preferred. there's more to enjoy. so you cycle? how was that? >> with my mother. fun. >> how did you do? >> i don't really get it. it was really loud. everyone was screaming at me. >> you know screams at me all the time? governor tim pawlenty. >> he's coming up ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. with the spark cash card from capital one, sven's home security gets the most rewards of any small business credit card! how does this thing work? 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[ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? here's your invoice. the blissful pause just before that rich sweetness touches your lips. the delightful discovery, the mid-sweetening realization that you have the house all to yourself. well, almost. the sweet reward, making a delicious choice that's also a smart choice. splenda no-calorie sweetener. with the original sugar-like taste you love and trust. splenda makes the moment yours. this is a nice spot. i know there's an effort by some people to try and bring as much confusion to the topic of medicare as possible. but i want to bring as much clarity as possible so i prepared a small chart here which will describe differences in our respective plans for medicare. my plan presents no change. the plan stays the same. no adjustments, no changes, no savings. the president's plan cuts medicare -- excuse me -- well, let's see. there we go. by $716 billion. good morning. it is friday, august 17th, 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. time to wake up as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set. we have john heilemann, brian sullivan, and richard haas. >> records are being broken already this campaign. it's in august and they're all the wrong records. >> yes, they are. with 81 days to go until the election -- 81 -- the race for the white house has already hit a staggering milestone. spending on campaign advertising has now crossed the half billion dollar mark. that's about the same amount that was spent on the entire 2008 general election which also broke records. this is according to analysis by the nbc news political unit. spending from outside groups like super pacs account for almost half that money. however, 86% of all the outside money goes to boosting the romney campaign. thank god, because then you get press conferences like the one you just saw. >> well, you see that -- >> that was big spending. >> -- you can marshall your money carefully by having just the right backdrop. >> let's crunch number. $205 to just $33 million from the pro-obama groups. >> we whine so much about this every day and i know people get tired of it, but this is a huge story. i was campaigning that barack obama spent more in '08 than bush and ker re combined in '04. we're already breaking records from '08. what is the impact day to day on the campaign, on the election? how does this affect democracy? >> well, i don't know about democracy. i know that having spent the last -- early part of this week with joe biden in north carolina and virginia, there's a lot of people in those states who are already trying to figure out someone who can take their television set away from them for the next two months because all they are looking at is these ads. >> is it turning them off? is it the linda mcmahon effect? >> people are getting sick of it already. it will be an interesting question whether the republican advantage in spending -- i say this with no idea because we have no precedent for this now -- by the end, whether that advantage will actually help them or not. we are in uncharted territory here. people may just at some point shut off the tv. >> i can tell you -- i lived in washington, d.c. during the 2008 campaign and i can tell you that there were 200 barack obama ads for every three john mccain ads and it made a huge difference. john mccain wants to raise your taxes, they had the grainy thing. that actually moved the polls. so that did make a difference. i wonder this year if it is even beyond that. >> well, it is beyond that. the obama campaign -- the disparitity will not be as great this time though the obama campaign will be outspent. as i say, if you're talking about seven or eight states and this amount of money, the saturation could get to the point where -- again, we just don't know what people will do. there is no analog in the past. if you are talking about we're going to spend $2.5 billion in this campaign, last time we spent $1 billion. that's a big order of magnitude difference and there's no -- because there's no press tent, we just don't know. >> mika, only reason i talked about the linda mcmahon effect, we all know in connecticut, people were running out of their front doors but the end of the campaign saying please stop. people hated linda mcmahon regardless of ideology because of all the 30-second ads. that may be the only precedent we have. quickly, on to some other campaign news, there is a new cnn poll out that shows that paul ryan is making a dent in obama's lead up in wisconsin. >> yep. obama now leads romney by four points in wisconsin. a republican has not won wisconsin in a presidential race since reagan in '84. so you saw mitt romney with the dry erase board -- >> in the prison. >> in the prison yard. >> in the prison. was anybody there? >> i don't know because of the way it was set up. >> the prison yard. >> was anyone there? >> it's the cactus i like. >> he did field questions. it became the focal point around the questions especially if light of the harry reid's claims the former governor may not have paid taxes for a decade. >> i just have to say given the challenges america faces, 23 million people out of work, iran about to become nuclear, 1 in 6 americans povertity, the fascination with taxes i paid i find to be very small mind compared to the broad issues we face. but i did go back and look at my taxes and over the past ten years i never paid less than 13%. i think the most recent year is 13.6% or something like that. so i paid taxes every single year. harry reid's charge is totally false. i'm sure waiting for harry to put ino it was that told him what he says they told him. i don't believe it for a minute, by the way. but every year i paid at least 13% and if you add in addition the amount that goes to charity, why the number gets well above 20%. >> well above 20%. >> i was so bored that i don't know what he said. >> the obama's lis smith responded, "there is substantial reason to doubt his claims. we have a simple message for him -- prove it." is that enough? so he paid. that's it. we're done, move that over. it's over because he said that. >> he said it. it's now on a national television program so to joe's point he's either lying or he's not. right? i have a feeling the obama backers will say that he's lying. the republicans that support him will say, well there you go, it's out and we'll pretty much end up where we began. it is not going to matter to the doubters out there anyway. it is like the republicans with obama's college transcripts. right? release them. we just want to verify you you went to college. >> obama hasn't released a lot of things. >> yeah, he did. he ultimately got pushed into it. >> you deal with a lot of rich guys because you're on cnbc. people come in and -- >> he is a rich guy. >> -- they've got like gold bars that fall out of their pockets before they go on to the set. does this sound right, 13% tax rate plus he pays 10% to charity, he's probably paying most of the rich guys that come into your studio? >> you look at the two returns that he paid in. he did give -- i don't understand about romney, his lack of ability to deliver his own message well. if i was romney, i would say, i've given millions to charity. millions to charity. which we're supposed to value in this country. and the irs, our buddies, and their 77,000-page tax code, have said if you get millions you can key duct so your net effective tax rate is going to come down. romney -- this 13%. to your point earlier, like is harry reid going to apologize? i don't know. >> no. i want to see harry reid's tax returns for the past 80 years. >> $502 million in campaign spending this year? based on the average education cost, that would school 50,000 students in the united states. when are we going to get a salary cap on presidential races? >> this is the hidden stimulus program. it's campaign spending. >> good for the american economy. >> good for the broadcasting business, for sure. >> fine corporations like comcast. it's good for the economy. so you were shaking your head during the tax return -- >> it clearly is not going to go away. the point of disclosure is disclosur disclosure, not assertion. >> why do you even care? >> why do i even care? well -- >> why is this a big deal? >> -- because i think many people believe presidential candidate standards have evolved over time and they should be transparent about where they earn their money and whether they pay taxed. >> he just said. >> he just asserted that. >> you either believe him or you say he's a liar. >> no. i say that he has not done what every other presidential candidate has done in the past is what i say. >> is there anyone who said no, i'm not going to answer to anybody -- >> politically, the thing that's toxic about the romney tax returns that we've seen so far is not the percentage that he's paid. the thing that's toxic for a lot of voters are swiss bank accounts, cayman islands. in reality, when you go out and talk to voters, that is the thing that rings people's bells. people do not get upset about the fact that he's paid 14% or 13%. >> let me ask you for the third time really quickly. how many years did john mccain release four years ago? >> two, though did he senate disclosure forms for the past 35 so we had a good window into his financial -- you could say had he 25 years of federal disclosure forms. it gives you a window -- >> it's far different. i've done those disclosure forms and it is basically did you make between 0 and $100,000, $100,000, 200,000 and $80 million -- >> yes, joe. i recognize they're different. but as i say, you've had a window into mccain's finances that you don't have into romney's. >> does the tax return reduce your ability to lead a nation? >> no, but there are many things -- that's a ridiculous question. >> what's a ridiculous question? >> yes, many voters want to know -- >> you should hang out with some republicans. they don't think that. they think -- >> that's fine. but the truth is that many americans actually judge things like character and one of the things that people judge about character is transparency. they want to know who you are as a person. you might not think that it's relevant, but it's not really relevant what you think. what's relevant is people make judgments about who should be president on the basis of a lot of things. we all have different standards. >> so there are things we think are relevant on this show that the candidates don't seem to talk about and sometimes other shows don't either -- >> nobody does. nobody does. let's go back to the next news story. just this morning, two u.s. service members have died after a local afghan police officer turned his gun on them. >> good lord. again. >> it has already been reported record year for inside attacks in which afghan forces have killed at least 37 coalition members. meanwhile, seven americans, including two navy s.e.a.l.s, were killed when their blackhawk helicopter crashed. u.s. officials say it happened during an intense battle with the taliban after the blackhawk had had just dropped off reinforcements for ground troops. in syria -- >> let's stop there. richard, come on, man. what's the president thinking? i can say this was easy to see that it was coming because we've been talking about it for three years. we talked about it every day -- americans keep dying. they -- young kids keep dying in afghanistan. to what end? to what end? >> at the moment, there isn't an end that warrants the investment. we still have more than 80,000 american troops in afghanistan. we're now dying probably at the rate of 400 or 500 a year. more than 2,000 cumulatively have died there. it's interesting, we're fighting the taliban. that's not the reason we went there. >> no, it's not. >> we got rid of the government. we push al qaeda out. now we're essentially a protagonist in afghanistan's civil war. this would be endless and would not ever have lasting, i believe, enduring, positive accomplishment. what we're -- the investment we're making is simply not warranted. we should get down very quickly, either to a so-called residual force or get out. but something that we're going do in several years, we ought to get to it much sooner than what is essentially an open-ended war with afghanistan. >> your dad said this three years ago, taliban is not al qaeda. al qaeda wants o blow up buildings in new york city and washington, d.c. the taliban wants to be left alone to run their government by second century standards. i mean this is such a classic overreach, mission creep and young americans are dying every day because of it. >> it is overreach. what's interesting in the news, you have what's going on in afghanistan, you have what's going on in iraq. these were two enormous wars of choice. these were two enormous efforts. the united states put in hundreds of thousands of troops to essentially remake these societies. iraq, the sectarianism is continuing. afghanistan, is essentially going back to being afghanistan. >> afghanistan, you'll agree -- you wrote a book about it -- afghanistan did not start as a war of choice. that was a war of necessity. 85% of americans would have agreed with it. >> absolutely. >> then we decided we were going to rebuild it. >> the big decision was made early in the obama administration to triple u.s. troop levels essentially to take on the taliban. the united states became a central player in afghanistan's civil war and that was a mistake. it wasn't necessary. what we can do in afghanistan is very similar to what we're doing in other places -- we could use drones, we could use special forces, we could do some training. but we do not need tens of thousands of americans on the ground fighting a civil war. >> quickly, also in syria, the united nations has decided they're going to just cut and run because it's turned into a civil war. >> yeah. united nations peacekeeping force says syrians have "chosen the path of war" and the last piece monitors in the country will leave by the end of the month. u.n. officials will meet today to discuss if any hope for diplomacy can be saved. in neighboring iraq, insurgent violence left 55 people dead across the country in a single day. since the beginning of august, more than 150 people have been killed across the country in violence largely blamed on the group known as the islamist state of iraq, which is al qaeda's iraqi branch. richard, syria, they have chosen the path to war. we are in civil war now, right? >> well, absolutely. the opposition is making their gradual strides. they probably control at least half of the country, maybe more. i think the united states will continue to get gradually more involved, providing slightly more capable arms. what we are facing in the future there, i believe, is prolonged sectarianism. the model, the template, is probably iraq. this is a society that has massive fault lines. the u.n. is essentially ending its peace monitoring mission. the real question is whether the world is ever going to think about a peacekeeping or peace making mission. that would probably take 80, 100,000 well-armed troops. my hunch is the world does not have the stomach or capability to do this. the syrians are going to have to sort this out on their own. up next, former presidential candidate tim pawlenty joins the conversation. we'll test his poker face by asking him why he thinks paul ryan was the best man to beat mitt romney's running mate. >> i know who i think they should have picked as mitt romney's running mate? bill karins. he knows social media. >> seriously. i don't know if he's going to have a job by monday when management sees his facebook page. there are standards, you know. you don't put yourself in a speedo on your facebook page. that's not something anyone wants to see. if you could rock a speedo, you'd do it. don't give me a hard time about that photo -- there's no photo, by the way. your weekend forecast looks very quiet and also very beautiful in so many areas that have struggled with the heat. big three weather stories this morning -- one, the fires that are burning in the west and extreme temperatures. yesterday once again easily into the 100s, even portland, oregon, was 100 degrees. going to be another very warm day out there today. in contrast, it is the coolest morning since spring from areas of denver to the northern plains all the way into the great lakes. even kansas city this morning, unusually cool. enjoy it while it lasts. we do have also some thunderstorms that have rolled down through mississippi and alabama. let me take you through the forecast for today, anywhere from dallas right through the deep south, louisiana, mississippi, alabama, chance of storms today. those thunderstorms in new york and d.c., philly and baltimore will be late this afternoon, morals towards this evening. now as far as your weekend forecast, today is 74 and sunny in chicago. tomorrow is 77 and sunny. you haven't had two days this perfect and beautiful in forever. i mean if you can get outside, this is the time to do it. ac off all in the middle of the country as we head through the weekend. then finally as we end your weekend, it looks like some of that cooler, drier, less humid air will arrive for the mid-atlantic up through the northeast. much of the country is going to be cooler. probably the worst forecast this weekend -- anywhere down along the deep south. afternoon thunderstorms will be plentiful. st. louis, what a glorious morning. temperatures in the 50s. we've got some rain out there yesterday. have a great weekend, everyone. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. well hello, welcome to hotels.com. summer road trip, huh? uhuh yep uch let's find you a room. at hotels.com, you'll always find the perfect hotel. because we only do hotels. wow. i like that. nice no. laugh... awe uch ooh, yeah hmm nice huh book it! oh boy call me... this summer, we're finding you the perfect place - plus giving you up to $100 at hotels.com 22 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now -- >> i'm excited about this. >> okay. i know. >> i like him a lot. >> i know you like him. the former governor of minnesota and the national co-chair of the romney campaign, tim pawlenty, who i think joe thought maybe you shall have been -- i don't know -- chosen. >> tim doesn't think that way. that's why we like tim so much. >> he's a nice guy. >> should we talk about him like he's here or like he's not here? >> ask him if the dry erase board was his idea. >> now we all know that was mitt's idea. >> are you sure? >> yeah. we need to get him back on the set because he is a great host here. >> he is. >> all right, tim. tell us the truth about paul ryan. you think the selection suctiks don't you? >> no, i think it is a good selection. you alluded to this earlier. one of the good reasons you pick somebody is because they change policy debate and add something from a governor standpoint. you got a governor and member of congress. here's the bow in us -- you put wisconsin in play. that's a state that otherwise would not have been in play but for paul ryan. he helps in the upper midwest. there's a lot of great reasons for paul ryan to be picked, including the fact that he's ready to be president. >> how tough is it to go through this vice presidential process. you've done it twice. had a lot of people, lot of reporters telling me in 2008 it was yours. you went through it again in 2012. we hear the process is back-breaking, it's worse than it's ever been before. can you take our viewers into the inside of it, how tough it is? >> for me, it wasn't that tough because i had been through it before and had kept a lot of the same stuff that you had to submit from last time so it just involved a little updating from 2008. once you submit the stuff and go through a few interviews, it is not that hard of a process really. and at some point i became aware that this was headed in a different direction. it's like that old country western song, joe, "if the phone don't ring, you know it's me." >> exactly. you know, though, four years ago it made a lot more sense to have senator/governor, a guy with a record. i guess this year going into it, you must have thought, wow, it is going to be a little more difficult stacking a ticket with two governors. like you just said, it makes sense to have a guy that's governed and a guy that's been in the legislature with a pretty strong conservative record. >> look, i didn't really expect to be considered, much less be a finalist this time so i can honestly say i wasn't disappointed to not get something i didn't expect. so it was and honor to be considered but i can genuinely tell you that it's not something i expected so i didn't have disappointment. i told mitt originally, i don't know i should even go through the process, but it was an honor to be considered and it was an hon more to be a finalist. >> we got some bad information earlier this week, by the way, that actually it was been of mitt romney's sons that called to you tell you that you weren't there. i understand actually mitt himself called you to tell you, you wouldn't you -- both you and also the senator from ohio, rob portman, that you both got personal phone calls from the candidate himself. >> yeah. somebody misreported that. mitt actually called me the monday preceding the picks, almost a week before the pick, and indicated which direction he was headed. i sure appreciated that heads up. but it got misreported that one of mitt's sons specifically talked to me and rob on the eve of the pick. that just wasn't accurate. >> just not true. >> so let's talk about the pick of paul ryan. everyone say he changes the conversation, makes it a real conversation. >> he sure does. excited about it. >> where does the campaign stand on his budget? is it a signature for the ticket or not? >> well, governor romney has his own budget, his own set of proposals. there's a lot of similarities with congressman ryan's proposals but there are some differences. you've been talking a lot about it over the last few days. governor romney's got a proposal, for example, with medicare that's very similar to congressman ryan's and the debate is on. you've asked for over the years on this show an adult debate about entitlement reform, now we have it. >> i agree. was paul ryan's budget the reason he was chosen? >> i can't say it was the reason he was chosen -- >> what would be the other reason? well, his reasons are these. first of all, he's smart, he's capable, he's ready to be president, he's somebody who's been a huge differencemaker when it comes to policy. he's got a huge appetite for reform. he gets along with the candidate, mitt. he gets along with people. he's a great campaigner. he's from a state that is now in play that perhaps wouldn't have been in play in terms of potential romney carrying wisconsin. those are some of the reasons that paul ryan's a great pick. >> john? >> governor, john heilemann here. i want to ask you a question about the coming straight out of what you've just been saying. i'm going to read you a tweet from byron york, a well known conservative journalist -- the gop's now caught up in the thrill of the fight over medicare when the country's overwhelmingly their top concern is jobs, obama's huge failure. talk about the politics of this, whether it actually makes sense. one of the problems it seems to me with the selection of governor ryan, just as a political matter, we're now having a debate that is much more on terms -- that favors democrats rather than -- and distracts away from the thing that is the president's biggest weakness which is the unemployment picture. >> of course, john, these things are all interconnected. jobs and the economy remain the highest priority and area of focus for voters all across this country but it is not unrelated to health care and getting health care costs under control and the system reformed. it is not unrelated to energy, it is not unrelated to entitlement reform. it is fair to say these things are all connected and you can't be somebody who wants to lead this nation and not be willing to put a marker out on entitlement reform. so is it the only issue on medicare/medicaid reform? of course not. is it something that should be and must be addressed by leaders and people who want to be leaders from an adult perspective and in the discussion? of course. so, it's a piece on the table. it is going to be something that's going to be featured in these kinds of formats for weeks, but it is important to tie it back in to and also have the discussion about jobs and the economy. you'll see that coming i think as we get through these initial days of the selection. >> governor, brian sullivan of cnbc. how are you, sir? a lot of talk about taxes. i mentioned something earlier in the show about middle class tax rates and people kind of going crazy about it. what's your view on that? is the middle class undertaxed or overtaxed? >> well, if you talk to people about how they feel about it, they certainly don't want their taxes increased. i think they'd say, we're overtaxed. we also need tax reform. so the good news is governor romney, congressman ryan have said let's move to a system where rates are lower, but let's try to clean out as many of the exemptions, deductions, credits as possible so we have a flatter, simpler, more transparent, more pro-growth tax code. and that's directionally where they want to head. i think directionally that's spot-on. >> bottom line, governor -- can we pay our bills as a nation with current tax policy? because just raising taxes on the 1% isn't going to do it. >> well, the question is, do you have some appetite for higher growth and do you also have some appetite for reducing spending? right now they take in about $2.5 trillion a year and are spending $3.5 trillion, give or take. so they don't have 40 cents of every dollar they're spending. it is not just raising taxes. that's not something republicans obviously support. but you can't continue to spend -- for every dollar you spend, not have 40 cents of it. and the president, no withstanding his rhetoric, has the worst record of increasing the debt and deficit in this country in the history of the country. governor romney wants to bring the debt back down -- or federal spending underneath 20% of gdp. right now it is at 24% and climbing. that's a huge difference. >> governor, are you going to come back on set some time and host again? because i can tell you -- >> he was good. good presence. he read a prompter nicely. >> i'd love to come back, joe. hope you'll have me some time, you and mika both. >> thank you so much. >> minnesota nice. >> he is minnesota nice. sitting here listening to miss upper -- whatever side -- miss south of france yelling at him -- >> no, i wasn't. >> she wasn't yelling at him. >> interrupting him. >> she was being very respectful and just pointed, i thought. >> she's pointed. he's so minnesota nice, it kind of made me feel uncomfortable. >> brian. what's wrong with saying paul ryan put out a budget that really raised some serious questions about what we need to do to make sure that we don't run out of money, that our children -- that we don't kick the can down the road. why can't we say that this budget is a great touchstone for the conversation? >> because you don't get elected telling people what they're not going to get. >> why did they hire him? >> what's that? >> why did they hire him? >> i guess mika's point is, why do you hire a guy for his budget who doesn't want to talk about his budget? >> whose signature accomplishment -- >> i don't disagree. the bottom line is, paul ryan's problem is he's telling americans he's going to solve a problem in 2050. a lot of people voting today won't be around -- >> 2040. >> -- in 2040 or 2050. >> even tim pawlenty said very gracefully, he's a great candidate with a bold appetite for reform. what does that mean? how does that show itself? it's his budget. >> i don't think mitt romney wants -- did they make a calculated decision not to be very specific on medicare policy, social security, tax reform -- >> yes. yes. >> tax breaks. >> yes. yes. those are all -- you know, as you know -- >> then why hire paul ryan? >> those are all third rails. you saw what happened this week. my first time on the hoe this week so i haven't been part of that conversation but you saw what happened. a lot of republicans around the country are freaking out over the discussion that they think is going to be politically very difficult for them, especially in senate races. you think about florida, there are a lot of places -- >> if you're not going to run into that burning house, then why pick him? >> that's a very good question. >> because we all liked him for raising some of the unspeakable questions. right? for people being -- i mean i don't have to agree with him but i respected him for his budget. i did. >> he said medicare -- >> i don't understand why they can't. what? what's so funny? >> i want somebody -- as far as i know mike bloomberg, by the way, my former boss, in an op odd a couple weeks ago is the only guy i've seen on any level that's told the truth as far as i'm concerned -- and folks, let me just say this to america. the average middle class tax rate is 5.6% after deductions. 5.6%. we're not going to pay our bills -- >> i can't look. >> what are you doing? >> it's just him. >> because i get all fired up about tax rates. >> let's get this straight. >> remember we used to call ratigan money party? >> we're both tall, loud, irish dudes and we work together for a while. >> freak show. keep talking to america. you can't be distracted by her whether you're talking to america. >> it's easy to be distracted. she's very fetching. >> this is like reverse santelli. >> no, no, no. i'm not saying we need to raise taxes on the middle class. i'm saying at current spending levels -- you know it's true. i was trying to get governor pawlenty, the republican to say it, because every republican politician -- >> crazy eyes! >> my crazy eyes are just tired. >> what are you doing? >> you know he does that. >> you're like leading us -- let me just say it. we have to raise taxes! say it! say it. >> that's what he's saying. but the amazing thing is, instead of the tea party, he's anti-tea party. he's anti-santelli. he's bringing the tea over! >> no, no, joe. i'm a shil for the 1%ers. i grew up lower middle class but i'm a shil -- >> he wants a lot more taxation and a lot less representation. >> now you're talking my language, by boig. coming up, a new york city crime drama with a twist. bbc america takes us back to manhattan in the 1800s. this looks really good. a new series -- i'm looking forward to this one. we're going to be talking with the show's star and producer coming up next. on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] its lightweight construction makes it nimble... ♪ its road gripping performance makes it a cadillac. introducing the all-new cadillac xts. available with advanced haldex all-wheel drive. [ engine revving ] it's bringing the future forward. brave knights!ing the future as you can clearly see from this attractive graph that our sales have increased by... sorry, my liege. honestly. our sales have increased by 20%. what is this mystical device i see before me? it's an ultrabook. he signed the purchase order. with an ultrabook, everything else seems old fashioned. introducing the ultra sleek, ultra responsive ultrabook. a whole new class of computers powered by intel. like a squirrel stashes nuts, you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec® liquid gels. nothing starts working faster than zyrtec® at relieving your allergy symptoms for 24 hours. zyrtec®. love the air. girl was killed with a walking stick. >> the girl's name was kate. >> the head of the walking stick was made of something equal or greater in density to bone. maybe silver, maybe ivory. >> the blow was struck by a man approximately 6'0" tall. you sure about this? couldn't someone taller have been bending down or kneeling or something? >> the depth and angle would be different. >> damn me to hell. >> 39 past the hour. that was a clip from the upcoming series "copper" on bbc america. joining us now, the series co-creator and co-producer, tom fontana, and one of the show's stars, tom weston-jones. >> mika, yesterday we were talking about how stupid tv people were? they go -- >> yesterday we were. >> we were. we were talking with a guy saying how stupid these guys -- oh, this won't work, the series about music. don't work. >> right. >> now we have three -- >> then couple years ago, period pieces don't work. i started watching this. it starts in 1912. it's explosive. >> so did "the tudors." >> you guys decided to make it even harder on yourself. you start in 1864. for a dork like me, i know that's a year after the riots in new york city but why is this time period so fascinating in the life of new york city? >> well, i think that the show is paralleling a lot of stuff that's going on today. there's an unpopular war going on. there is a presidential election going on. the re-election of lincoln. there's terrorist threats on new york. there's poverty. there's racism. there's immigration issues. >> there's also the 1%. it seems like in the investigations, they always lead you back to the richest and the wealthiest people on 5th avenue. >> well, actually in this story, tom's character and the rich guy -- the richest guy are actually best friends because they served in the war together. >> so how are you pitching -- were you in on the pitch meeting on this thing? >> oh, yeah. >> how did that go? >> actually, this show's had a bizarre life because we developed it for amc and they passed on it. >> because, of course, amc will tell you period pieces don't work. where's my cigarette! so you pitch it to amc. seems like it would be perfect for amc. they pass it. but bbc america takes it. >> yeah. well, harry simon, the -- came in as head of bbc america and he said i want something original, something daring, and he turned to barry levinson and i -- >> how exciting is that? >> it is. >> i had the high concept pitch for this, hollywood high concept. is homicide meets age of innocence. >> i like that. >> see? >> look at that. >> boom. done. >> how exciting is it, though, to be in this kind of project? it looks like it's -- >> really exciting, yeah. it's by far the biggest thing that i've actually ever had to do and undertake. to do it with people like tom and barry who i think are just -- have the best idea at heart for the show. they really did. from the very beginning up until the end. so i always felt like i was in safe hands. >> and also i'm sure you guys have a lot more freedom, a lot more latitude on bbc america. >> yeah. >> than, say, you would on other networks. >> they're really collaborative. they always like things to be as dark or as light as they possibly can be. they like to stretch it both ways. >> isn't it crazy? when we were all growing up -- not you -- but when we were all growing up, you'd go see "the sting," then everybody would talk about it in the office. you'd go see "jaws." we were just talking about "jaws." the great stuff is now on tv. it's unbelievable. the greatest stuff is on -- what you guys are able do with "copper," what requested mat men" was five, six years ago, the "sopranos," you can go down the list. is where the great work is done. >> the first show i did for cable was "oz" for hbo. >> boy, that was a formula! "oz"! by the way, what did you say when they come back and go, that's a great idea, let's do that on television. >> i was like a kid truly in a candy store coming out of broadcast television and being told there are no rules. it was tremendous. >> and what about for you as an actor having the freedom, the latitude to work with these guys? >> well, from the very beginning, when i got cast, i feel like i kind of just hopped on this big moving train that was going to get there no matter what but i was just kind of just a little cog in the machine really. but from the very beginning, tom and i were on the phone together quite a lot because i'm based out in london in the uk. >> seriously, i thought that was a georgia accent. >> i thought you were acting. >> i'm from jersey, actually. >> that's bergen county. anyway, you guys were on the phone a lot talking through this. >> yeah. the character had been around for a very long period of time. but what was so good is that tom and will, as well, obviously because he was the guy who could instructed it, he gives you enough breadth to create everything in the past of the character so have you enough to work with in the present. which is great. >> i make predictions here. of course, i predicted "dewey." in '48. i also predicted facebook. this is going to be a hit and this is going to be a big hit despite the fact, speaking of "jaws," you guys are going to the jaws of competition, the toughest night, on sunday night. >> they'll do it. "copper" premiers this sunday. >> i'm ready. >> and you feel guilty. 10:00 on bbc america. >> you can also read about it in "the new york times." what a great spread. huh? >> i have to set up all of my multiple dvrs at 10:00 p.m. on sunday. now i got to see this, too. >> i'm glad. >> tom fontana and tom weston, thank you very much. business before the bell headlines. wow. okay. >> god, help us all. [ female announcer ] ready for a taste of what's hot? check out the latest collection of snacks from lean cuisine. creamy spinach artichoke dip, crispy garlic chicken spring rolls. they're this season's must-have accessory. lean cuisine. be culinary chic. it's time for business before the bell with cnbc's brian sullivan. we go right now to wall street -- no, he's here. >> i wouldn't have known. he's from wisconsin. he's 6'4", 240 pound -- >> i'm not from wisconsin. >> he just visited wisconsin once. he's also visited the upper peninsula once. >> he likes to inject things into the conversation about himself. >> he talks to america a good bit. >> yes, he does. >> he's exploring the -- >> what else did we learn today? >> we learned that brian taught us that the british had a right, they should have taxed the tea. >> more taxation and less representation is his slogan. >> with that, let's go now to brian with the news. brian? >> you guys done? >> no, we've only just begun. >> freak show. >> according to one twitter viewer, i am a disgrace to all irish-americans of humble beginnings everywhere. i think that's just way too nice. >> let's go to freak show to talk about facebook. >> you ask and i shall deliver. >> how low can facebook go? >> how low could it go. well, they have real revenues. zero is probably unlikely. but the revenues are at risk. listen, we pointed it out earlier. this is the problem for facebook. right? this little device right here, or an android phone, or whatever. people are looking at facebook on this. there's not a lot of room for ads. if there are, they don't click on them. even on the web, the click-through rate for facebook ad is are probably drunken mouth clicks. accidental. they have to figure that problem out. >> tell me, are they set up for failure every month? do i understand like every month more people are free that are tied in right now to sell their facebook stock? >> yeah. it's called the lock-up period. when you go public, insiders, whatever, get a certain amount of stock and they have to wait a certain amount of time before they're able to sell. basically almost every month from here to the end of the year -- in fact 271 million shares just came on the market yesterday. another 1 billion-plus before the end of the year are going to come out on facebook. so more of something, unless they turn something -- get some positive headlines about ad revenues or a big company saying how great facebook is working for them ad wise, it is going to be very difficult. >> people are going to sell. this is how people get liquid. whether the company is doing well or poorly, they've got to sell. >> this is tough for california. they were counting on a lot of tax revenue. >> wow. with the spark miles card from capital one, thor's couture gets the most rewards of any small business credit card. your boa! 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