Here at the table for the hour, Steve Schmidt and matt miller. But first, to react for the first time, single threads different threads of a single story. Questions about russians and contact with people in the president s inner circle. Former cia director john brennan, lucky for us, now a Senior National security and Intelligence Analyst for msnbc and nbc news. I understand now, sitting here today, why donald trump a week or so ago said dont believe what you see, dont believe what you hear on the news channels, because when you take all these events just this week together, they paint a very compromising position for this president on the question of russian influence. I think thats right, nicolle. I think weve seen over the course of the last two years basically an effort on the part of President Trump and others to pry to inoculate Public Perceptions of what actually
happened during the campaign. First, there were no meetings. Then there were meetings, but they were focused on adoption. They were benign. Then they acknowledged there was meetings and some issues discussed. But now were at the point of them saying collusion is not against the law. So i think this just reflects just this steady slide of the trump team to try to acknowledge that some things happened but they werent illegal. Thats where its up to the special counsel and his team to uncover exactly what happened, the motivations for those who went into those meetings, and to come to the conclusions that i think the evidence will bring forth. Is there any question in your mind about what the motivations were for the people in the meetings . I mean, the Trump Tower Meeting was attended by natalia and others who were known to be close to the kremlin. When you first heard about that meeting, was there any doubt in
and still may be in terms of monitoring these developments. But the fbi and the u. S. Intelligence community are the worlds best in terms of being able to detect and to then uncover. Sometimes realtime, but often youre able to determine exactly what happened by putting together some bits and pieces of data until you can see more of the puzzle. I think i hear what youre saying, and unlike this president , i respect the need to protect sources. I guess what im trying to get at is one of Donald Trumps attacks on the Intelligence Community where you spent the vast majority of your career and on Law Enforcement, which is both sides of those, cia run by his hand picked appointees and before that, by a political supporter, mike pompeo. The fbi now run by his hand picked nominee, christopher wray. He attacks them constantly. Is it should he have been warned by the fbi that there
were russian agents in trump tower . Do you know if there was enough information in possession of the u. S. Government that in hindsight maybe he should have been warned . Certainly the campaign was given defensive briefings by the fbi what they should be on the lookout for. But if there were ongoing investigations at the time, which jim comey and others have acknowledged that in late july, there were those investigations were opened. Its very, very difficult to reveal details of an investigation while at the same time protecting the integrity of that investigation. So i know that the bureau tried to balance their need to warn and to advise the two campaigns about the potential for foreign interference. But at the same time, continue to pull those investigative threads and they continued to pull them throughout the course of the campaign and during the period between election and
functions of the american Intelligence Community and Law Enforcement. I do want to get to the manafort trial. Jeremy bash on this program once said that it was possible that there was a russian plant, that there was somebody who was who sought out employment on the trump campaign. We know that Paul Manafort sought Out Tom Baric and asked to get in front of trump and Paul Manafort served as the chairman when the platform at the Republican National convention koicoincidentally perhaps, maybe its President Trumps one true intellectual impulse on foreign policy, changed to a pro russia position. What do you make of the fact that Paul Manafort, while i understand this trial is about financial crimes, is one of the first characters who could have been perhaps planted or placed there as a russian agent inside the trump campaign, is that implausible to you . The latest Political Developments of the day and interviews with top newsmakers are featured. Intelligence element. But a lot of times people recognize that there are vulnerabilities here in themselves. But still will pursue this because they have tremendous financial pressures upon them. And i think whats coming out in this case is that Paul Manafort faced very, very serious financial problems. And was seeking to capitalize on them. So i think the special counsels team has done a good job of what ive seen so far publicly in terms of uncovering some of this. And rick gates now is acknowledging his role in this. You know, when i see this continued case evolve, i keep thinking about sort of those who are affiliated with President Trump, its almost like a pack of cars going down the highway being pursued by Law Enforcement. And some of those cars have been pulled over and are now cooperating with the authorities. The mike flynns and george
papadopoulpap dap papadopoulos and rick gates. And the other cars are going to be outmaneuvered by Law Enforcement or go off a cliff. Theyre not going to get away. Let me ask you about a white bronco here. Don junior largely thought to be thrown under the bus by his own father. They seem to have a strategy for avoiding maybe not even impeachment but conviction. But he appeared to throw his son under the bus when he said don junior took a meeting with the russians, it happens all the time. You never meet with a foreign government, let alone a foreign adversary. There are plenty of allies who have information. You never take the meeting. You dont meet with the uk or the israelis. You never, ever, ever correspond with american adversaries. So what do you think trumps doing by saying hey, don junior met with russians to get dirt on Hillary Clinton . Do you think its sort of trying to signal the same defense he has for himself, collusion isnt a crime, or doesnt he understand that his son could be in serious legal jeopardy for conspiracy . I think both. He believes he can convince his base and supporters that there was no crime here and trying to explain it away. But also i think he has an exaggerated sense of his ability to navigate these legal shoals. And i think he has done a lot of damage to his Legal Defense and his sons Legal Defense. And im sure some of the lawyers that are trying to defend President Trump and others, the real lawyers, not Rudy Giuliani, but the others are rolling their eyes and are very concerned about all of the things that President Trump continues to either tweet or to say, that its complicating and making their jobs much more difficult. Let me ask you Something Else about russians. They seem to be popping up everywhere. A russian spy that infiltrated the nra, which may seem you have
t off topic, but its about russians manipulating the republicans. Are the russians being embold emboldened or are we Getting Better at catching them . Russian intelligence spans the spectrum from very sophisticated, exquisite operations that are really difficult to detect and uncover, to maybe some of the more entrepreneurial efforts on the part of those who may be working directly or indirectly with one of the russian intelligence services, whose profile is maybe a little bit more prominent than a Traditional RussianIntelligence Officer would like. And so therefore, people like her who have come across the radar, to me it doesnt smack of very sophisticated russian intelligence trade craft. It is very aggressive and asserti assertive, and she had a profile that i think was inconsistent
with what a russian Intelligence Officer would want of his or her asset or person working on their behalf in the United States. I read red spareio. I think i know what youre saying. You talked about whiting and unwhiting accomplices. I put don junior in the unwitting category. Do the events move him over to the witting accomplices . He responded i love it. His father said he walked into a meeting with the russians, people now that we know have ties with the kremlin and sat there, wanting to receive dirt on Hillary Clinton, would you now, in terms of his sort of legal standing and the role that he has played in all this, would you move him into the witting category . I think i would put him in the witting category, in terms of knowing going into that meeting with an anticipation and expectation that he was going to get dirt from those individuals that were associated with russia. Whether he was witting of just how bad that action was, i dont know. But if he had that position within the trump campaign, he certainly should have been aware. And those working with him should have been aware that going into that meeting, in and of itself, just by definition, would be problematic. So i think it was a bit of knee yoo naivety, selfconfidence, and also believing he could get away with it and not be held to account one day. And i think he was wrong on that score. Yes, he hadnt met mr. Mueller. John brennan, thank you for your time. Thank you. Matt miller, so much there. But this idea now that were putting our finger on it, the witting accomplices to the russian effort to meddle in the 2016 election feels like maybe the public facing part of what bob mueller is investigating, the conspiracy. Thats right. If you stake everyone in that meeting at trump tower its Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort, donald trump, jr. And a bunch of russians with ties to the kremlin. Thats right. What did they think they were doing . Its not just the emails that we see Jared Kushner responding to, but you have to take that into context of what happened before. In april, George Papadopoulos had been told that the russians had obtained Hillary Clintons emails. Dan scavino, a close aide to President Trump, had tweeted about the russians having obtained Hillary Clintons emails. We havent seen this confirmed yet, but i guarantee they went into that meeting thinking they were going to get hacked, stolen emails from the russians. And we talked to a person close to the trump Legal Defense effort u who said that every person who told a lie about that meeting, told lies to other people repeatedly, and the idea that every single one of them
had the sensibility to walk in and Tell The Truth the first time to Robert Mueller is a fantasy, that every one of the people who probably knownt the meeting, because it is a small campaign, not a lot of chances that they didnt know what the meeting was about, they all told this lie to the press, to each other, to the rest of the white house, that the idea of every one of those people on the list of six names that Robert Mueller sent over, after it came out wasnt about adoption, could be in serious legal jeopardy. No doubt thats true. What weve known for a long time, was there collusion . Of course there was. When the leading officials of the president ial campaign go to a meeting with russian intelligence operatives for the purpose of receiving dirt on the Democratic Partys nominee for president , they were colluding with a hostile foreign intelligence power. What i dont know is does it meet the Legal Definition of Felony Conspiracy against the United States . And thats what were going to find out over the course of the investigation. But i know this for sure on
any of the campaigns that we worked on together and we worked on two president ial campaigns together, and i know for sure whether youre talking about the senior people who we were in opposition against on the obama campaign, on the john kerry campaign, people that we know well. Not a Single Person on any of those campaigns around barack obama or john kerry, the they were called and asked do you want to meet with russian intelligence operatives, officials, people with ties to the kremlin to get dirt on george w. Bush or john mccain, the answer would have been hell no, and they would have called the fbi. Thats what people do. When we come back, we go inside the courtroom where the Prosecutions Star Witness pulled back the curtain on Paul Manaforts criminal enterprise. Also ahead, blue wave rising. How anger at the president could get a democrat close enough to rattle republicans in a deep red part of ohio. Stay with us. But he has plans today. So he took aleve this morning. Hey dad. If hed taken tylenol, hed be stopping for more pills right now. Only aleve has the strength stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. Tylenol cant do that. Aleve. All day strong. All day long. Now introducing aleve back and muscle pain, for up to 12 hours of pain relief with just one pill. The nations largest seniorliving referral service. For the past five years, ive spoken with hundreds of families and visited seniorcare communities around the country. And ive got to tell you, todays seniorliving communities are better than ever. These days, there are amazing amenities, like movie theaters, Exercise Rooms and swimming pools,
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sort of, to rebuff the latest offer from the special counsel for an interview. See any connection . Reporter well, of course. The president , you know, the people in his orbit are watching this trial theglued to it. For the president , he believes that mueller is going after Paul Manafort in a way that is trying to be deeply personal and humiliating to the president. So thats how he views it. The president doesnt see this trial as separate from him. And frankly, its not. So you have to understand, as the president Watches Cable News on a loop and grows frustrated, he associates all of this with mueller. Of course, thats going to affect his decision and his lawyers thinking about whether or not its a good moment for him to sit down and answer a bunch of questions. I want to read you a quote that Rudy Giuliani gave to your colleagues there. He says theyre trying to get something on perjury, and thats
not going to happen. The answers with regard to former National Security adviser mike flynn and the firing of comey are well known and theyre not going to change. He would say the same thing in an interview that he said publicly. The idea that theyre trying to get something on perjury, you dont have anything on perjury until a witness purgers himself. So hes saying donald trump is incapable of telling the truth. That has been a concern of the president s lawyers, not just giuliani, but people who came before him. And theres a real debate and a divide between the president and his legal team. The president believes, believed and still does believe, that his own best negotiator that he didnt do anything wrong, that he has nothing to hide, and if he could just get in the room, he would be able to convince mueller and his investigators of that. His lawyers are far more cautious because they understand
that if you Say Something under oath or to investigators that is not true, even if you wish it were true, you could be in serious trouble, which is why theres been all of this effort to say maybe the president once answer some questions, but they will be written questions, not the president going off the cuff in a way that could get him in trouble. It seems to me, matt miller, that even written responses, if theyre written by the president , are not theyre going to end up letting Robert Mueller ask him about the weather. Theyre nothing that they have confidence letting the president talk about. I heard that everyone from Chris Christie to Rudy Giuliani to emmet flood, would later body down before they would let the president be interviewed by Robert Mueller. If we see written answers, it will be answers drafted by his attorneys that go through four or five attorneys that dont answer the questions. Because he has hes stuck on the horns oh of a dilemma here, where, in many cases if he lies about what happened, hes
committed a crime. But i think a lot of times the answers are incriminating if he tells the truth. Thats why hes not testifying right now. Its not just a question can they prepare him enough without lying. If he goes in and admits well, i did Fire Jim Comey because i wanted the Russian Investigation to end, thats evidence of Obstruction Of Justice. If he admits i wanted to know about this trump meeting before it happened, that puts him in the middle of this conspiracy. I talked to a source, a onetime participant in the president s legal effort, who said the reason this Obstruction Marker is being laid down, is because they think that there is a real chance that the president , by interrogating senior white house aides after they came back from their interviews, that the president may have subborned perjury. It turns out thats the kind of thing bill clinton was impeached for, for Querying Aides after they testified for before the
grand jury. There is an escalating concern that the president is vulnerable on the question of witness tampering, and the questions of Obstruction Of Justice. Hes not the first president who lies. But hes the most prolific liar to ever be president. And when you unpack all of this, the incapacity to be questioned about anything and give truthful answers, either because you just cant help yourself from lying pathologically, which may be the case with trump. But also because whats likely to be the truth is so incriminating here. Every single representation that they have made as a white house, as a campaign, trump himself about what occurred here, somewhat happened, last unraveled from the first moment that they said it. Barbara, thank you for being there for us. Ashley parker, thanks for joining us. We liked it better when you were in studio. After the break, why you might see a republican freakout tomorrow if democrats get within
striking distance tonight in ohio. Thats next. And i just wanna tell you right now that i i believe, i really do believe that somethings got a hold on me, yeah oh, it must be love oh, somethings got a hold on me right now, child oh, it must be love let me tell you now, oh it must be love
close your eyes and randomly point to any story in the newspaper these days and youre almost certain to see a theme, its all about President Trump and the special election happening in ohio. People there have voted republican in decades and the president won by double digits. So why is the margin between the democrat and republican razor thin . Take a guess
joining the table, a former Communications Director to president obama, and the Hillary Clinton 2016 campaign. And former republican congressman david jolly. It seems to me, david, that people are likely to misread this, and if the republican ekes it out, saying nothing to see here. Thats not the point, thats not the story. This shouldnt be a race that any of us know anything about. This shouldnt be a race that anyone talks about. I would say if the democrat comes within five points, the republicans are in deep doodoo. Good reference. The takeaway from tonight and every other special do Congressional Election is this only republicans trust republicans. If youre a democrat or independent, You Dont Trust Republicans or donald trump. Its why republicans are looking at a very difficult time in november. This could be the worst midterm
election in nearly 40 years for republicans. The fact that these are competitive, and democrats have overperformed, republicans have underperformed in every single special election since donald trump got elected. Going into november where you have 23 to 24 seats, where Hillary Clinton actually won those congressional districts, but theyre representatived by a republican in congress, youre looking at a wipeout year, because those seats are gone in november. Why cant democrats lose the defensiveness . Why not say, if it comes to impeachment, it comes to that, but why not run with this head wind . Democrats should do their job if theyre running for congress. Its right there in the constitution, your job is to be a check on the president of the United States. Its the republicans job, too. To be fair. Why are you saying why are democrats defensive . That is in their dna. Matt and i shared this cross to bear, that they are almost always on the defensive and kind of get too much wrapped up in their own heads. Yes, you should run a campaign thats on local issues that people care about. But it is your job if youre running for congress to hold the president of the United States accountable. Whats happening in ohio, trump came and did a big rally, that used to be the insurance policy. If his rally has proven to hurt the republican candidate, that spells worst doom for republicans in november than we anticipated prior to this week. Im rustier than you are, but what is the Impeachment Message for democrats in the midterms . This is a big moment in the history of the country. This is the most significant Midterm Election in American History. And were heading into a president ial election, which is the most significant since the election of 1864, when the question that was really on the
ballot is whether we were going to continue to be one country, whether we would prevail in the civil war. This is a big moment. If the democratic strategists are sitting around, all this other stuff doesnt matter. I think theyre missing the larger point. The attacks on americas institutions, the assaults on the rule of law, the personal Degen Degenrecy of donald trump, we look at the meanness, the corruption, the cruelty, the ability to call this out for what it is. I think its fundamental for the Democratic Party achieving what i think would be a very significant wave. And by the way, to say explicitly and directly to Republican College educated women, for example, we know that you dont agree with us on every issue. But on these big things, the couple of things that matter most to us as americans
transcend any partisan difference. And we must join together in this country to put a check on this. That, to me, is the compelling message. How do you nationalize that . If you talk to democrats privately, theyll say he got elected after access hollywood. Now weve had a year of seeing a president who accepts the support from racists, hes now governed as a year, someone who Dispages Bleep hole countries. You can you can win a fight in two ways you can bring your opponent to submission, think germany and japan after world war ii. Or you can break your opponents will to fight. And to some degree, trump is exhausting the electorate. Hes wearying democratic constituents. What i would say is, what i would say is this on this
point he has performed some level of jedi mind trick. Heres the deal he lost by 3 million votes. He won the popular vote, he won by 78,000 votes across three straits in a narrow victory. He is weaker. The majority of the country opposes this. It is only through the Magical Thinking of the trump cult that there is any capacity to believe that a majority supports it. It does not. What democrats have to talk about is the vast corruption of this administration, the personal corruption of donald trump and the people around him, the kind of moral corruption, and the fact that the republicans in congress will do nothing to slow him down. They embolden people like devin nunes who are just as corrupt. The republicans have nothing left to run on. We talk about the democrats message, but the republicans started talking about the tax cut, the thing they promised for
years, and they delivered it and its not working. They are now talking about nancy pelosi, talking about immigration, democrats wanting to abolish i. C. E. They sent the president in, the vanderbi Vice President in. If none of that works, they have nothing left. Donald trump and the republicans made a mistake when heelected, which is to suggest they have a mandate. In every one of these races, people are saying this is not the government we voted for. So well see that. Steve is right, this was a moment in American History where donald trump won with fewer votes than the other candidate. And yet they have continued down this road of republicanism that nobody actually recognizes. Democrats dont recognize it and republicans dont recognize it. After the break, a profile in pandering. New reporting from the New York Times magazine about a man addicted to Donald Trumps atta boys. Patients Taking Ibrance can develop low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infections that can lead to death. Before Taking Ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. Common side effects include low red blood cell and low platelet counts, infections, tiredness, nausea, sore mouth, abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, Hair Thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. Alice calls it her new normal because a lot has changed, but a lot hasnt. Ask your doctor about ibrance. The 1 prescribed fdaapproved oral Combination Treatment for hr her2 mbc. You may be learning about, medicare and supplemental insurance. Medicare is great, but it doesnt cover everything. Only about 80 of your part b medicare costs. A Medicare SupplementInsurance Plan may help cover some of the rest. Learn how an aarp Medicare SupplementInsurance Plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company
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leader. He said i dont want the job, im not sure ill be good at it. But he was the only choice we had in many ways. I think what were seeing with his resignation, this is no longer paul ryans party and he knows it. This is Donald Trumps party, not paul ryans. He is, at this point, because of having transacted on the Corporate Tax bill, nothing more than a for profit republican we see in the Finance Community that sold their souls for benefit of President Trump. The most shocking thing about that interview, though, was his admission that President Trump has architected tragedies. What does that mean . This is this is from the from marks piece. This is paul ryan. I can look myself in the mirror at the end of the day and say i avoided that tragedy, i avoided that tragedy, ryan tells me. I advanced this goal, this goal, i locked in on the word tragedy. It sets the mind reeling to what
he might be talking about. I asked for an example. No, i dont want to do that, ryan replied. Thats more than what i usually say. What is he talking about . Donald trump got the nomination. I was on the u. S. Senate trail, marco rubio was running for president. And when he secured the nomination, i believe coming out of indiana, every republican candidate was expected to say we support donald trump. Paul ryan and i on the same day said comments that were uncoordinated where we both said, im not there yet. I stuck with that. Paul ryan did not. And at some point, at some point, this is a reflection of somebodys own integrity, their own conviction. He was willing to satisfy the politics of convenience, and ill tell you this, legacies will be remembered for people who stuck on principle and didnt fail in the face of adversity. Hes failed in the face of adversity. There was no way back after access hollywood. And i had friends that supported him. To me, some called me and said,
theres no way back. This isnt a question of a former political consultant, this is a question for your wife, daughters, for your parents. If you can get there after what you heard on access hollywood, go for it. But i didnt see a way back and i was shocked that paul ryan did. I thought he might be the one person i had a moment after hillary lost where i thought maybe theyll get together and elect the house the Republican House will elect Somebody Else president of the United States, because it was so clear this man couldnt do it. And they went along with it. Theyre still going along with it. The story is how mark isolates this lack of agency they think they have. What kind of conviction do you have that you think your own voice cant matter as the speaker of the house, that you think your own supporters are so bought in, that they cant hear a truth that youre willing to tell how dangerous this president is. And its like what steve is
saying about the democrats being having a selffulfilling outcome, where if we dont act as if trump is a danger, why are people going to think that . The Republican Party has also bought in. Think that . Republican party is all so bought in, they dont have the power of their own conviction or believe their own supporters could hear them when they flag him as dangerous. No wonder the Republican Party is aligned with him because no one else they dont hear anything else. We have a right to know what the tragedies are. He has an obligation this is government of the people, by the people, for the people. We have a right to know what hes talking about there. In the meanwhile the republica republicans, hes at his tweets all day. Guess what donald trump is talking about on the golf course . Well tell you on the other side of the break. George woke up in pain. But he has plans today. Hey dad. So he took aleve. If hed taken tylenol, hed be stopping for more pills right now. Only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. Aleve. All day strong. Hours long, 18 holes. Must have been four hours that felt like 64 out on the course. Look, hes clearly obsessed by it. Not surprising. But again, what lindsey is saying, its political. This is a campaign tactic, not about the subversion of the rule of law, not about the is undering of the Western Alliance and the advancement of interests. There are big controversial issues at stake and every comment by an elected republican leader of the party is small. It diminishes the epic question thats before the people of this country which is do we want to put a check on this or not. I had heard last wednesday that donald trump was again using on the phone in the morning or around the time he sent that tweet about firing Jeff Sessions. My thought when i saw this is
that im sure Robert Mueller has already thought to subpoena all his golf partners. Hes talking to everybody about what is on his mind. Including hope hicks who was back on the plane with the president this weekend. My takeaway from the Lindsey Graham story is tpt hasnt moved off the idea of firing bob mueller. It surfaces, goes away for a while. Everyone tells him it wont work. We all like to think its impossible. But it would be so cataclysmic. The one person who hasnt let it go is donald trump. The desire to fire Robert Mueller, Jeff Sessions and the efforts his aides have had to undergo are all flash points in the Obstruction Of Justice investigation. It is. The president likely faces criminal culpability at some point. I think the gaslighting of the trump base is fully complete, the republicans on capitol hill are fully bought in. I think its under serious
consideration to dismiss rosenstein and mueller ahead of democrats likely taking control in january. The president , what i saw in front at the trump rally is a base that would fully support him. We have to sneak in our last break. Well be right back. Its time now for your your business of the week. In the summer of 2017, schepp hers was getting complaints from all sites, from customers to local officials. They didnt have good answers to problems like why their lines were so long. Find out how this company redeemed itself and saved its reputation on your business Sunday Morning at 7 30 eastern on msnbc. Back every step of the back every step of the whether its the comfort of knowing help is just a call away with global assist. Or getting financing to fund your business. No one has your back like american express. So where ever you go. Were right there with you. The powerful backing of american express. Dont do business without it. Dont live life without it. Where were changing withs . Contemporary makeovers. Then, use the ultimate power handshake, the upper hander with a double palm grab. Who has the upper hand now . Start winning today. Book now at lq. Com. Ive been Making Blades here at gillette for 20 years. Theres a lot of innovation that goes into making americas 1 shave. Precision machinery and highquality materials