Transcripts For MSNBCW Andrea Mitchell Reports 20190221

Seemed to really try to focus on the Inspector General report as if references to the fact that i was caught, really interesting in light of the fact that we knew for quite some time, and ive known for quite some time, that the president was very focused on removing me long before there was an Inspector General investigation, and certainly long before that report was ever finished. In fact the president s draft letter firing jim comey mentioned the fact that comey had not fired you as one of the reasons for firing comey. Thats right. Thats right. So it wasnt disturbing enough to have the president raise me with former director comey on three separate occasions across their somewhat awkward personal interactions. He would bring my name up and say whats the story with that guy, does he have a problem with me. And then of course that culminates with his reference in the letter as one of the reasons why he was firing director comey, because of director comeys failure to fire me. So, truly remarkable. Since youve brought up the Inspector Generals report, they did say that on four instances that you were not fully candid with questioners about your interactions with the wall street journal. Can you respond to that . Well, all i can say at this point, andrea, because of the ongoing legal matters that im still handling, is that i deeply disagree with those conclusions. I think ive been clear about that. I never at any time intentionally misled the Inspector General, the fbi investigators, or any director of the fbi. That report is not like anything i had seen. How so . How is it different . You know, investigative reports include all of the relevant evidence, not just those pieces of evidence that support the conclusion that you want to arrive at. You include all the information, all the material that you have to decisionmakers. And there is we have information, very relevant information that points in the opposite direction. That was apparently not included in that report. Did you present it to them . Well, we are in the process we did present it at the time. We are in the process of presenting these matters in a civil suit that ill be filing in the near future, so for those reasons its better that i dont discuss it. Understood. But you above anyone, 21 years of experience at the fbi, should know that misleading questioners should be seriously problematic. Of course. A 21year career what is the mitigating circumstance there . Well, i cant go into the details today, but i will say a 21year career in the fbi, absolutely unblemished concern, never a source of trouble for anything more serious than losing my building i. D. Which happened early in my career. I am absolutely confident and relying on my reputation in the work that ive done in service to this country and i will continue to fight the results of that report. And ill do so through appropriate litigation. Just to wrap this up, though, you say that the report is unlike any other ig report youve seen. Was it politically motivated . Was the ig pressured by higherups . What we do know is that the president demanded this result. He demanded it publicly. He demanded it in his statements, in his twitter comments, racing me to my retirement. In a twitter post he posted i think two days before christmas in 2017. The ig delivered that result. They delivered it in a truncated time, through a process unlike any ive ever seen or experienced before. So i think we have ample reason to believe that that report was at least influenced by the clear direction and desire of this president. Youve said its possible that the president of the United States could be a russian asset. What led you to that conclusion . That is the conclusion that investigators draw when they are trying to determine whether or not to open an investigation. Its important to understand twlon, were not throwing anyone in jail. In may of 2017, after the firing of james comey, we felt that we had ample information and facts in our hands that put us in the position to say, this is a credible, factual basis to believe that a federal crime may have been committed, in this case obstruction of justice, and that a threat to National Security might exist. You opened a full field investigation. Were there factors other than the president s public comments, his firing of jim comey, his comments to lester holt . Well, the factors that i have referred to, we considered it enough to predicate a full field investigation. I would never be able to discuss the existence or nonexistence of information thats not public. Im inferring there was more evidence. Would i be wrong in that conclusion . I know you cant talk about intercepts, you cant talk about other communications. I cant encourage you in that way. Well, the timing is interesting, because you opened that field investigation in may. We did. May 15th, 16th, 17th, around that time. May 10th was a really important date. May 10th was the date that the Russian Foreign minister and ambassador were in the oval office and the president of the United States declassified or spoke publicly about highly sensitive classified information from a third country. He has the legal right to do that. But did that contribute to your suspicions . The president made many statements during that time that contributed to our this was an unusual meeting, never before, the ambassador, the foreign minister, getting classified intelligence. Im not familiar with any other meeting quite like that one. And i think that when you think about the president s statement in that meeting, informing the Russian Foreign minister that he had fired the director of the fbi and that firing had relieved him of the pressure of the russia investigation, is just a remarkable thing to say and certainly something that concerned us. Lets talk about the way you structured the investigation, because you opened a full investigation, a field investigation, and you combined it with the already ongoing investigation. Was that done deliberately to protect this investigation from political interference . Because to unwind it, more steps would be required. We have, as you mentioned, preexisting investigations that were focused on uncovering whether or not the Trump Campaign or People Associated with it had interacted inappropriately with the russians. This inquiry into the president was fully a part of that preexisting investigation. So theyre all part of the same larger hole. And as a matter of fact, the entirety of that Russian Investigation was then turned over to the special counsel. Was the decision to open a full counterintelligence investigation into the president based on anything that had occurred before he took office . The decision to open the investigation was based largely on those factors that i have related to you. So these were things that had happened, interactions that director comey had had with the president , statements the president had made, of course the firing of the director, and statements he made about that in the immediate aftermath, was all things that took place after he had been inaugurated. We were already aware of details of his own financial situation, the trump organization, the moscow deal. Thats a really good way of asking that question but im afraid were back to the same point where i cant confirm for you other evidence or information that we may have had. Can you explain generally to those of us who are civilians, what goes into a full field investigation, the number of agents, the process . Well, its not specifically a number of agents, but it is more a reflection of the information that we have to, as we say, predicate or justify the opening of an investigation. So there are several Different Levels of fbi investigation which i detail in my book. The full field investigation is the broadest and most comprehensive level of investigation that we have. If we have that highest level of predication, the factual basis to believe that a crime may have been committed or a threat to National Security exists, that calls for the level a full field investigation. Once you have a full field investigation open, you then have access to the broadest toolkit of fbi investigative techniques. Would this have been shared with the head of the cia at the time, mike pompeo . I am not its not common that we would, you know, brief the cia or inform them about the opening of investigations generally, even counterintelligence investigations. There may be investigations that call for a degree of cooperation or interaction between our agencies. But its not a standard practice. If you were concerned at the time in may of 2017 that the president could have been compromised, are there people left in government who could also be compromised and are you concerned about that . The threat of compromise by our adversaries, whether its russia or any other foreign counterintelligence adversaries, is something that concerns the fbi greatly. And its a much broader and more comprehensive effort than just one investigation. I know everyones been talking about this one for the last few days, year, however you want to look at it. But the fact is that counterintelligence work is a large part of what the fbi does. It is that part of our mission that is typically done quietly. It is done typically with confidential and classified techniques and information. So its not the part of the fbi work that the public is most familiar with. But it is absolutely an essential piece of our mission and it is essentially tracking the activities of foreign Intelligence Officers in this country and their efforts to recruit americans to spy against their government. At this point in may, already there had been the firing of mike flynn and the extraordinary 18 days after sally yates had come to the general counsel, the white house counsel, and warned that mike flynn was compromised. That must have been a factor. A factor in in deciding that a broader investigation needed to be opened. Or was that part of the already that was already part of the investigation before you opened the counterintelligence investigation into the president . The developments in the flynn investigation, which have been widely chronicled now in publicly available information, were greatly concerning to us. As the former Deputy Attorney general, sally yates, has stated, she had significant concerns that what we knew about mike flynns activity could create the conditions, the conditions necessary or relevant to creating that sort of vulnerability. Not that she knew he had been compromised or was compromised. But simply the informs we had created the conditions in which those sorts of activities sometimes take place. So not only were you concerned about the president of the United States, you had already had these concerns about the National Security adviser and all of his complex arrangements, not only with russia, with turkey, and now questions are being raised with saudi arabia, congressional oversight of that nuclear deal. Let me ask you about your briefing, the briefing of Congress Also in that period in may. Yes. Congress, the gang of eight, you briefed, you said. Who briefed them . Who led that briefing . That was Rod Rosenstein and myself. Who spoke . Did you speak at the briefing or did Rod Rosenstein . We both did different parts of the briefing. Did you explicitly or Rod Rosenstein explicitly tell please members that it was a counterintelligence investigation into the president and russia . You know, im not going to say what the words that we used or relate explicitly what i told them, but i will say rod and i ensured that the gang of eight was completely aware of the steps that we had taken, of the current status of the overall russia investigation. And rod of course added the information about the appointment of a special counsel. Do you have notes from those meetings, that meet . I dont have any notes at this point, i have no i dont have any of my notes or materials from my does Robert Mueller have those notes, whatever notes may have been taken . Everything that i had, Robert Mueller has access to. So there were notes at the time taken, but you dont have access to them anymore . You know, i dont remember if i actually was taking notes during the course of the meeting. But, you know, i cant sit here and tell you, years after the fact, exactly what my notebooks reflect. Okay. Were going to take a quick break and be back with more questions for Andrew Mccabe, author of the book the threat. Stay with us. Well have a lot more with the former acting director of the fbi, right here on Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Prom. You should be mad at forced camaraderie. And you should be mad at tech that makes things worse. But youre not mad, because you have e trade, whos tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. Dont get mad. Get e trades simplified technical analysis. Ythen you turn 40 ande everything goes. Tell me about it. You know, its made me think, im closer to my retirement days than i am my college days. Hm. Im thinking. Will i have enough . Should i change something . Well, youre asking the right questions. I just want to know, am i gonna be okay . I know people who specialize in am i going to be okay. I like that. You may need glasses though. Yeah. Schedule a complimentary goal Planning Session today with td ameritrade. And were back with Andrew Mccabe, author of the book the threat. The Mueller Report could be imminently turned in to Robert Mueller. The democrats are talking about subpoenaing Robert Mueller to get it in front of the American Public in some form. There are many limitations on what might be able to be included in that unclassified version. I take attorney general barrs word remember sa, he said that would make as much of it public as possible. Were all awaiting news of the report. Have you heard anything from Michael Cohen so far or some of the other witnesses that makes you more confident that mueller and these other investigators are going to get to the bottom of this . I think that the progress that the mueller team has delivered should be a great indicator to everyone that this is not just a legitimate investigation but one thats being pursued aggressively and completely. Theyve certainly gone in directions and delivered results that i could not have thought about back in the days when we were responsible for those cases. We were at the very kind of early stages of that investigation when we turned it over. But i will say this, andrea, and i think its important to consistently point out, certainly during our time, we initiated these cases fully cognizant of the fact that we had concerns, they would be investigated, but at the end of those investigations there might not be adverse findings, we might not find collusion. We may conclude that nobody had done anything intentionally wrong. It was some of those concerns i raised with Rod Rosenstein when we discussed the need to appoint a special counsel. I felt like at the end of this investigation, if there is no smoking gun, if there is no dramatic conclusion to deliver, it would be in some sense even more important to hear that from a completely independent selected special counsel. With all of these contacts that have been documented between people around the campaign, manafort, stone, others close to the president , and ukrainians, russian ukrainians and others, does there have to be something there or is this all coincidence . Well, its hard to imagine, you have this volume of contact between People Associated with the campaign or close to the president , having this volume of contact with individuals who have connections to russian intelligence, its not like anything ive ever seen before. Its hard to write that off as coincidence, particularly when you add the fact that many of those contacts have now been concealed or people have lied about their existence in an apparent effort to conceal them and cover them up. Its quite concerning. The president issued a warning in an interview with the New York Times in july of 2017 that it would be a red line if anyone looked at his finances. Do you have any concerns or indications that the investigation into deutsche bank, possible money laundering, possible connections to the moscow trump deal, do you have any indication that Rod Rosenstein may have walled that off perhaps to protect the larger probe . I dont know that. Adam schiff suggested that might be a concern, thats why i ask. I do have complete confidence and faith in director mueller and i know him to be an investigator and a person of integrity who will push this investigation in every direction that he thinks is appropriate. And hes got certainly the skills and the experience to make those determinations. Im confident in his ability to do that. How about your confidence in Rod Rosenstein, since he was in charge of this probe . I think from all outward indications, everything we know publicly, rod has supported the work of the special counsel, since he put director mueller in place. So i think thats something we can rely on. Im going to talk about Vladimir Putin and the president and this relationship, which aside from legal questions has raised eyebrows. The fact that he would meet with putin for two hours in helsinki with no note takers, the fact that theyve had contact with russian translators but not state department translators, does that add to your concerns about the compromise possibility . I think its concerning on many, many levels. Certainly its not like anything ive ever seen from an administration, from a president , really from any diplomatic engagement. That is just not typical. And there are many reasons why you would not want to leave a president of the United States to navigate those situations completely on his own without another witness or a person from the president s team, the president s staff, to be in those interactions, to be able to kind of track whats being said and, you know, kind of stand up for and represent those results in a clear way. So it is mind going boggling to that that happens. It is even more concerning that it seems to have happened on multiple occasions. Again, these are moments when investigators step back and just ask the question of why, why is that happening. At the same time the president has demeaned the Intelligence Community from day one and most recently has said, after the threat assessment, unanimous threat assessment at the hearing in january, that the cia and other chiefs had to go back to school. He has reportedly spoken against dan coats, to people around him, as weve been told. Do you have concerns about the way he takes his intelligence briefing and about the value or the understanding that he has . I have great concerns about that. And i detailed some of those in the book. The fact that it is a challenge to get relevant intelligence products that the president is interested in, in front of him in a way that he wishes to consume them, thats just the beginning. For intelligence professionals to understand not only that the president doesnt believe or doesnt trust the material that theyre giving him, but he embraces the information that he is receiving from our adversaries, that is an incredibly kind of earth shattering moment for people who spend their lives preparing intelligence products for the president s benefit. Similarly, the attorney general is someone who is part of that National Security complex. Of course. You write in your book about Jeff Sessions and about your early days with Jeff Sessions. You wrote that he once said, i saw in the paper the other day, and then he would repeat an item that you had briefed him on a few days earlier from the pdb, the president s daily brief. He was confusing classified information with news clips. It sounds very similar to the way the president took in information. You know, it was we began those engagements with the attorney general understanding that we had some work to do to teach the attorney general about the intelligence products that we were producing, how to recognize those products, how to appreciate the sourcing and compare sourcing across different products and how to interpret some of those products. And so thats how we approached those initial engagements. It was a challenge. Ultimately we found that his interests and his focus was frequently on areas that were not particularly relevant to the National Security issues that we were trying to bring in front of him. Whats next for Andrew Mccabe . Well, i dont know. Ive really ive spent a lot of time in the last year driving carpool and walking the dog, so this last week talking about the book has been a bit of a whirlwind. But im looking forward to getting out more and getting in front of people and talking about these issues, not just about my experiences in the last two years. I think youve mentioned and have seen theres a lot more to this book and to my fbi career than just my interactions with the president. But its incredibly important to me that the people who do this work, the people who do the great work of this federal government, protecting our society, protecting our people, upholding the constitution, that the stories of the work that theyre doing get out. I think its just been so destructive, this false narrative thats been perpetuated about the fbi, about our Intelligence Community by the president and his supporters. I think it does corrosive damage to our professionals ability to protect this country. Are you worried that its going to be covered up, it will never fully come out . You know, i think everything comes out in the end. I worry more about the men and women who do this work becoming frustrated, becoming dispirited, and the smart young people who need to be drawn to this work in the same way i was drawn to the fbi many years ago. That is a process that keeps our country safe, that keeps these organizations filled with the best talent this country has. It concerns me that some of those folks look at the things were going through today and are discouraged from doing this work. Im trying to kind of restore peoples belief in the nobility of this public service. Its a fascinating book. Thank you. The book is the threat how the fbi protects america in the age of terror and trump. Andrew mccabe, thank you so very much. Thank you, andrea. Moments ago we saw Michael Cohen going into a Congressional Office building, clearly getting ready for his upcoming testimony next week. Along with his team there. Michael cohen on capitol hill with lanny davis. A lot more to come. Stay with us on msnbc. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports. door bell rings its open hey. This is amazing. With moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis, are you okay . Even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart. So i talked to my doctor about humira. I learned humira can help get, and keep uc under control when other medications havent worked well enough. And it helps people achieve control that lasts. So you can experience few or no symptoms. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. 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Maxwell yeah . Youre home. Oh, cool. Thanks mrs. A. Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. Its hard to imagine when you have this volume of contact between People Associated with the campaign or close to the president , having this volume of contact, with individuals who have connections to russian intelligence. Its not like anything ive ever seen before. Many of those contacts have now been concealed or people have lied about their existence in an apparent effort to conceal them. Andrew mccabe. Lets bring in our experts to break down what weve just learned from my conversation with Andrew Mccabe. Matt miller, you worked at the justice department, you knew him well in the years past. What have you learned . A number of takeaways from that interview. One of the things i find most interesting is the fact that he briefed this disclosure, that he briefed the gang of eight on the opening of this investigation. He wouldnt get into the details of what he told them but it was very clear they knew, the day that bob mueller was appointed, that the president was the full subject of the investigation, and there was no complaint at that time. One, Public Officials know theyre not supposed to attack fbi investigations. Theyve known it for a long time. They know its kind of a third rail to be pressuring the fbi about what they should and shouldnt do. And it tells you how much things have changed in the nearly two years since that moment happened. Devin nunes was one of those eight and he had already been going to the white house, trying to undermine the investigation in the early days. He absolutely had been. But if you look at the the other people in the meeting didnt say anything because they know the fbi is supposed to be allowed to complete its work. The Republican Party has completely shifted in the time since that meeting to where now it is a mainstream position in the Republican Party to attack this investigation, to question this investigation, to do it in a way that in may of 2017, really would have been unthinkable. And matt, of course, you were former spokesman at the justice department. Ken dilanian, my colleague here, and msnbc contributor joyce vance, former federal prosecutor, joyce, what was your ta takeaway . I think its a fascinating situation where we have andy mccabe now talking about events that we suspected but perhaps didnt have confirmation of. And something that jumps out at me, as he talks about briefing the gang of eight with devin nunes in the room and talks about the fact that there was perhaps evidence collection from cia even if they didnt get some sort of a bright line warning that the investigation was opened, that President Trump knew he was a subject of this investigation as soon as bob mueller was in place. Thats important because it makes it a lot easier for prosecutors to show that when he took steps after that, whether it was dangling pardons or threatening to fire bob mueller, that he did it with knowledge that he was a subject. And thats a very close step to proving that he intended to obstruct the investigation. Is that why he keeps repeating something that happened earlier with jim comey, that comey told him three times he was not a target or a subject . I think that thats a very good conclusion. You know, trump was hyperfocused on that. He kept trying to get people to say that. Its hard for me to think that he was smart enough to understand that that would impact how prosecutors would prove intent down the road, meaning that hes just not wise about the ways that federal prosecutors work. But he was focused on that piece, and so perhaps theres something to that. And ken dilanian, lets talk about roger stone. Hes going to appear before judge Amy Berman Jackson today after his postings. Shes calling him in, calling him on the carpet. There could be serious repercussions. And then hes posting again today on instagram. Help me in my epic fight against the antirealdonaldtrump deep state. Roger stone is still living in the political arena, not realizing hes in the legal arena now and hes about to get a wakeup call. Theres a chance this judge could send him to jail today or find him in contempt for violating this order. At the very least shell give him a severe scolding and hopefully read him the riot act. This came perilously close to threatening the judge. He has a First Amendment right to criticize the investigation, and hes raising money off it clearly, but not to post a picture that appears to threaten the life of a federal judge. We have an extraordinary situation with the arrest of a man in maryland who was threatening news media personalities, Public Officials, elected officials, repeating many of the tropes from this deep state kind of propaganda. Its a reminder of how dangerous it is right now, when you have the president constantly calling the press an enemy of the people. And specifically going after the New York Times. Going specifically after the New York Times yesterday as he did. It was just last year that a supporter of the president mailed pipe bombs to a number of people in the media and former Obama Administration officials. Obviously the president didnt direct anyone to do that. There are a lot of crazy people out there. But the president s words matter. And some of these people take inspiration from what he says and its a reminder of how dangerous his rhetoric is, how irresponsible it is, and how much he needs to tone it down before someone actually gets seriously, seriously hurt. We saw pictures of Michael Cohen arriving on capitol hill for prebriefings with the members of the committee or their staff. Joyce vance, lets talk about the Michael Cohen testimony finally next week. They delayed his incarceration until may 6th so that he can heal from surgery, from shoulder surgery, and also testify to congress. So its not unusual for a defendant to delay the beginning of service of their sentence due to a legitimate medical reason. We know that judge pauly doesnt tend to be a pushover, so it seems likely that thats legitimate. It also gives congress a little bit of breathing space to have cohen testify in open session as well as closed session. The list of topics hell be discussing is jawdropping, including the president s personal involvement in crimes including the Campaign Finance issue. Southern district of new york has already successfully convicted cohen of crimes. It will be an interesting couple of days. Indeed. Garrett haake, you just caught up with Michael Cohen outside. What did he have to say . Reporter hey, andrea. Not very much. I think we have the clip available. We had cohen on capitol hill early this morning Walking Around by himself. Another photographer for another News Organization caught that picture. We set up shop outside the senate intel office on the feeling he might be there, we werent expecting to see him on capitol hill today. Sure enough, he left those offices a short time ago. I tried to ask him a couple of questions and wasnt particularly successful. Take a listen. So not much from Michael Cohen here. You didnt miss a lot there. We asked him several times what he was doing here, what kind of conversations he was having with senate intel staffers behind closed doors. And frankly why anyone should believe him when she see him testify next week, which is i think a question that hes going to get a lot from the republicans on these various committees. He did not answer any of those, his legal representative lanny davis said he wouldnt be taking questions today and they tried to walk past our cameras. That didnt exactly work out well for them either. Were continuing to watch Michael Cohen to see what if anything he wants to say in advance of his big week on capitol hill next week. My money is on you, garrett haake, thanks so much, and thank you to joyce vance and ken dilanian. Coming up, details on the Jussie Smollett case. Case if your moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis case or crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an infection experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio®. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission within reach. And empire act Jussie Smollett is under arrest and charged with Disorderly Conduct after detectives in chicago say he filed a false police report, telling police three weeks ago he was the victim of a hate crime. Today the Chicago Police superintendent slammed smollett for the report. This announcement today recognizes that empire actor Jussie Smollett took advantage of the pain and anger of racism to promote his career. Im left hanging my head and asking why. Why would anyone, especially an africanamerican man, use the symbolism of a noose to make false accusations . Nbcs ron mott is in chicago with the latest. Ron, this is just an extraordinary case. Reporter its really hard, quite frankly, andrea, to come up with words to describe the frustration and anger that superintendent Eddie Johnson has. Ive never seen him like that, hes a very nice man. What youre seeing out of him this morning, the detective division, the unit cops, the beat cops that responded that night to this call, that they put a lot of time and effort into investigating this because they truly treated him as a potential victim, and then 23 days later, to find out that the Police Believe this was all a staged hoax, is really understandable why theres so much frustration here. Now this afternoon were expecting to see him in court, no cameras in court, bond hearing today for Jussie Smollett. Hes expected to be able to meet the conditions of that bond and then will probably walk out of the facility here just to our camera left position, and then well see what happens Going Forward in terms of a trial. Now, toward the end of that news conference, andrea, the Police Superintendent perhaps laid out what may be some of the conditions of any sort of plea agreement, that one, the city wants an apology from him, perhaps some money from him for the amount of time and effort that they spent investigating this, and to admit that this was all a ruse, andrea. Ron mott, thanks for following it very carefully. Coming up next, the sins of our fathers. The worlds catholic leaders gathered for a landmark summit to address sexual abuse by the clergy. Well get the details from vatican city. Anne thompson joins me next. This is not a bed. Its a revolution in sleep. The sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now from 899, during the ultimate sleep number event. It senses your movement, and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. It even helps with this. So you wake up ready to hit the ground running. Only at a sleep number store. Its the final days to save 50 on the sleep number 360 limited Edition Smart bed. Plus, 24month financing on all smart beds. Ends sunday. Sleep number. Proven, quality sleep. An unprecedented meeting of the worlds Catholic Church leaders is under way at the vatican today. Pope francis leading the first summit on sexual abuse by members of the clergy. Joining me now is Anne Thompson whos in vatican city and father james martin. Welcome both. Anne, what did the pope tell the bishops today . Reporter well, he urged them, andrea, to take concrete and effective measures to end what he called the scourge of sexual abuse by men of the church. And then he issued this paper, which is 21 reflection points, sort of a road map or a discussion guide, if you will, for the discussions that will happen over the next couple of days. And one of those ideas is an idea put forth by the u. S. Bishops and Cardinal Daniel dinardo outlining what his thoughts are. This idea of bishops policing bishops seems almost hollow at this point in time. I dont think its hollow particularly if its blended with a review board or some of the layity who take their place. Reporter what the cardinal would like to see is a lay review board for bishops which is what happens now. What is not in this paper which has some survivors very upset, there is no language about zero toleran tolerance. That is basically one strike and youre out when it comes to the priesthood. The other thing thats in here is publicly naming abusive priests. So there is some disappointment, but again, its just a starting point. This is where the church is starting these discussions. We dont know where theyre going to end. Andrea. And we have some interviews with survivors. Father martin, i wanted to play some of that and ask you about it on the other side. They have acknowledged we need to see action now. Zero tolerance for any priest that has sexually assaulted a child around the world written into Universal Church law. So will this conference, as unprecedented as it is, not go far enough, as anne was just suggesting . I think the church can always go farther. I think part of the problem is youre dealing with bishops in some countries where even the topic is very difficult to talk about, sex abuse in general. I think one of the reasons for this meeting is a kind of seminar for bishops who might be reluck tant to address it in their country so that is one of the motivations for this meeting. Father martin, some of the other issues that have come up in coverage by the New York Times, the fact that nuns have been abused, the fact that there was vatican guidance for priests who father children. How does that happen . Well, people sin. People commit crimes. And i think whats important for the church to do is to face it squarely and not to say, well, it happens in other places or its only a certain percentage. We need to face these kinds of things. This particular meeting, though, is focused on the protection of minors so theyre trying to zero in on that in the next few days. Anne, a number of us in washington knew Cardinal Mccarrick quite well with what we did. That scandal at the highest level of the church has brought it home to catholics and noncatholics alike. Reporter yeah, and i think, andrea, for especially american catholics, it is that scandal that really, really has them upset because the question remains, even though he has now been expelled from the priesthood is how in the world did he rise to the highest level of the Catholic Church, becoming a cardinal, what they call a prince of the church, even while diocese in new jersey wrote checks to priests who said they had been abused by theodore mccarrick. Who knew . Who turned a blind eye . We still dont know the answers to those questions. And until we do, i think people are going to be very skeptical of any kind of reforms that come from this meeting. Father, can the church get past this in the near future or is this going to be a long healing process . I think it will be a long process. I think the fact that the church is so international means its going to be very difficult to put into place but we will, these restrictions based on different cultures and legal systems. But its going to take a while for all of these crimes to come up, be revealed and for us to address them. But we will get past it, i do believe that. Father martin, its great to have your perspective. Anne thompson, thanks for joining us from the vatican. Feel better, and rea. Thanks. Feel better, and r. Thanks. Could the right voice the right set of words bring us all just a little closer, get us to open up, even push us further . It could, if we took the time to listen. The most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories. Download audible and listen for a change. That does it for this edition of Andrea Mitchell reports. Follow the show online on facebook and twitter. Here is Stephanie Ruhle for velshi ruhle. Hello, everyone, im Stephanie Ruhle. My partner, ali velshi, on assignment. It is thursday, february 21st. Lets get smarter. Jussie smollett, the actor in custody under arrest. He was charged with a felony for allegedly filing a false police report. The 36yearold is also set to appear in a chicago courtroom later this afternoon. This announcement today recognizes that empire actor Jussie Smollett took advantage of the pain and anger of racism to promote his career. Im left hanging my head and asking why. Smollett paid 3,500 to stage this attack and drive chicagos reputation through the mud in the process. What happens if someone decides that they wont step forward now because they wont be believed, that someone will think that what theyre saying is a hoax . Hoaxes cause real damage to society, not only by wasting Law Enforcement and judicial