Consequences across the country. Plus the president should pardon himself, his family, officials and anybody who has been targeted. Who is angling for a pardon and biden blitz in january to get anything actually done. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes, this is the front page of the New York Times today. Friday, december 4th, not happy, ominous in many ways but Something Interesting about it. Look at it, no stories specifically about donald trump on it. No picture of the president. That said, in many ways this front page is all about donald trump and the disasters hes brought upon us. Red chart of daily covid deaths is all about donald trump. Yesterday United States recorded more deaths than any other day in the pandemic, according to covid tracking project, another 2,500 today, just shy of yesterdays record and theres time left in the day. With the increasing Public Health crisis theres increasing desperation on the economic front. Without congressional intervention, more than 13 Million People could lose Unemployment Benefits end of the month, thats all the benefits, not the extra, flatout, no more unemployment. Jobs report shows economic recovery is stalling. Reason it fell is people stopped looking for work and no longer counted as unemployed. Even after modest rebound, jobless numbers are worse than any time during the great recession. Everyone knew or should have known this was exactly where we were headed. That includes donald trump and Mitch Mcconnell and entirety of the Republican Party that went along with that. Trump took the same approach to the election hes taken to everything hes done. Clear from the beginning, like the trump taj mahal, casino, university, plan is the same, sell people on the shortterm, turning the corner, right . Get investors in, take what you need and whole thing falls apart after youre long gone. That was the approach to the election. All that matters, the day that mattered, what happened before election day. Not a single life loss or business failed after november 3rd mattered because trump either got reelected and didnt have to run again or lost and not his problem anymore. Thats what it was all about. Here we are, month after election day and it is the disaster we all knew it would be. Way back in april, 21st, almost eight months ago, cdc director said the following theres a possibility the assault of the virus on our nation next winter right now will even be more difficult than the one we just went through. Said that in april. Weve said on this program talking to guests and experts that people need more relief economically. And people have said all along, you can no the separate Public Health and economics just like todays job report shows. Were losing business and jobs in guess what industries . Hospitalities and restaurants. And state jobs like education workers. None of that would have happened if virus was under control or if we could pay people to stay home in those industries. But approach all year of donald trump and Mitch Mcconnell and david perdue and kelly leffler, it was to polarize the public on lockdowns and ingenious. Tell people that things are back to normal, its not a big deal, you can get over it. Get back out there and dont you want to get back out there . Do you want to get trapped in your house . Go to parties, bars, big events, church. Come to our rallies. Were doing rallies. Get out there, everybody. Please. Youre voting for me to restore normalcy, thats what ive done, were all doing normal stuff, im dancing to ymca and youre in a packed crowd. Messaging so cynical and sadistic it took my breath away, really did. But wasnt just donald trump. Hes gone soon from office. But it was also rhetoric of the Republican Party by and large from the top down. It was what south dakota governor said while her state was literally experiencing one of the worst outbreaks in the world. Echoing the president , downplaying the threat, encouraging tourists to visit the state. Even 1 in every 1,000 residents of the entire state has died of it covid. Recorded a single day death total equivalent to 25,000 deaths on a national level. But that kind of messaging got republicans a lot politically. I mean, they were able to wield power. Got amy coney barrett, six seat supreme court. Picked up 13 seats in the house. Good shot to hold the senate. Donald trump lost but closer than many expected. And crucially they succeeded in this, pushed off worst consequences until after the election. That was the trade. They knew they were doing it. It led us deeper into this health and economic disaster. They brought us to this inevitable point we knew we were headed for. What happens after election day, number of people who died, people facetiming family members for last guy with tube down their throat in a hospital with people working triple shifts who cares . Not our problem. Donald trump is shrinking by the day. Sometimes i forget hes the president. Hes noticeably receding back into the absurd laughing stock that he was and always was meant to be. And while the president is missing in action, his flunkies cant even be bothered to address the severity of the situation. Where is the president when so many people are suffering . Look, theres a lot of suffering out there, i agree, but i will also argue the economy has registered a very strong comeback from the peak of the pandemic. Did you notice the chuckle there . Look, i sometimes laugh when im nervous, so charitably maybe thats going on, larry kudlow, top economic adviser chuckling about people suffering question. Sometimes it does seem like they think its a joke, a trolling joke, way to own the libs, this deadly disease. Florida state representative Anthony Sabbatini tweeted this. I had to double check it was elected official. Cases, omg, cases, tlsh cases more cases, cases are going up, wow, scary cases, wow. Its all funny to him. Last night republican congressman matt gates attended a maskfree gala in new jersey in apparent violation of state law while the hospitals fill up in new jersey. Maybe some people will get sick from that. But i really hope the staff that couldnt choose to not be there doesnt get sick. Republicans pushed people into dangerous situations, knowingly, crinically for political benefit. We all saw it happen. Now that thousands of people are sick and dying in deadliest year in American History when covid deaths right now are racing to become the number one cause of death every day in the entire nation, thats whats happening as im speaking to you. As thats happening, matt gates and all those folks, m mmr mr. Sabatini, they think its a joke. Lot of responsibility for ending the pandemic and fixing the economy will fall to president elect joe biden. Cochair of bidens transition and incoming head of White House Office Public Engagement joins me now. Congressman, its good to speak to you. Looks like we have a progress today, bipartisan compromise bill around 900 billion with lot of relief provisions. Nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer are willing to negotiate that. And president elect endorsing that. What role do you see the president elect, what role does he have in the negotiations . How much does it matter if hes pushing democrats to take a deal along these lines . Well what hes doing is reminding people of the urgency of now. And fact that you mentioned it almost 13 Million People are going to lose Unemployment Benefits end of the year, moratorium eviction will end. Paid family leave will end. So his role right now is make sure that politicians and people in congress understand there are real live people hurting. He applauds the efforts of democrats and republicans to come together. He ran his campaign saying that democrats and republicans should come together and put people first. So i believe that hes leading by example, but more importantly as member of the house, we need to do something for the people out there that are hurting. You know there was obviously negotiations, very protracted. Democratic caucus in the house under nancy pelosi passed a relief bill in may called the heroes act. At the time the jobs numbers looked better than now and Mitch Mcconnell and larry kudlow and others said we didnt need relief. Not getting better, negotiations stalled. Broke down. Nancy pelosi had this answer about why this number was acceptable now when it wasnt before the election. That is a total game changer. A new president and a vaccine. So theres nothing these are different, what was then before was not more of this. This is has simplicity, what weve had in our bills. Its for a shorter period of time but thats okay now. Because we have a new president. I saw some people today saying this was an admission on the part of the speaker she didnt want a deal before the election, cynical political reasons. Whats your response . Not at all, she acknowledged when we passed the heroes act, we knew it was going to get worse, needed to extend enhanced unemployment, provide help for state and local governments and do something for the American People and over the long haul because we knew it was going to get worse before it got better. Republicans on the other hand, hate to say it, were flatout lying to American People saying weve passed a curve, this is going to end. We knew it would not, and werent going to lie to the American People. What has changed now, theres a shorter period of time in which were going to have to carry benefits through. And weve unfortunately lost months and months because of republican obstruction, but we do have a vaccine coming, a president thats going to do everything he can to end this quickly as possible. He will lead by example, and he will have the ability to continue to push Health Care Reform and other things to make sure were treating people. It is a difference. Leadership matters. Thats what it boils down to. Donald trump has shown no leadership, head in sand bunker last couple of months. Jobs reports and people dying and president is playing golf, its reason for concern. I think the speaker pointed out correctly with faith in a new president , and a vaccine, that you dont have to extend the benefits as long as we did when we passed the heroes act. Congressman Cedric Richmond on the way to joining incoming administration, thanks for making time for us. Thanks for having me, chris. Economy cant recover until the pandemic is over, joined by former chief economist, now at Stoney Brooke university. I follow and read a lot of macroeconomic commentators, reporters and economists. Across the spectrum, some finance and wall street people, some republican, some democrat, liberal. Everybody was freaked out by the jobs report today. Why . Because its just furtherer evidence of what weve all recognized has been taking place for a period of time. This economy is in the midst of a slow motion train wreck. This recovery, which was uneven and bifurcated to begin with, why people like president elect biden have been referring to it as kshaped recovery. Already had problems with recovery, wasnt bringing everyone along. Now the recovery, bifurcated and uneven as it was, is beginning to slow down. What lies ahead is renewed carnage in the economy and we all saw it coming. Point is interesting to me, whole year is weird, almost examine question, what happens if you shut down the economy and try to restart it. You know, you can get into a situation, whether local federal budgets or businesses closing, cascading effect where things get worse and snowball starts rolling down the hill. How much is that a worry . Its a huge worry. If i were putting this on exam for my students, would be first or second question on the exam where you try to build up the confidence of the students, easy questions first, hard stuff comes later. This is what im talking about when i say renewed carnage. Talk about removing income support from the economy at the same time that a lot of the dereferrals and morer toia on rents and loans. Told people dont worry about the rent or mortgage or student loan debt, its building up, defer the payments but at some point the bills come due. Theyre coming due end of the year. Many of those programs, moratoria expire and income support isnt there. Toxic combination of bills are due and where is the income to make good on the payments. We know how this ends. People miss payments, cascading wave of defaults and real risk this economic crisis can start to bleed over into the financial system, then dealing with a whole different kind of crisis on top of the health and economic crisis were already facing. Some welcome news, betsy devos did announce they will continue forbearance on the student debt for longer. Extended that. When nancy pelosi and House Democrats passed that bill, Senate Republican caucus said we dont like it, dont need more money and also, havent talked about deficit in years but recovered this issue and think its a real problem. I have also noticed a shift in center of the conversation across the ideological spectrum on the deficit, that you have people who even in the great recessi recession were starting to get nervous saying this is not the time, we need massive support. Are you seeing the same thing . Yes, i have. Academic economists are definitely shifting. Positions theyre taking this time look different from a decade ago, fighting the great recession. Everyone understands this economy is not going to recover people like jerome powell, fed chairman is telling congress and the world, we dont have this, dont have the tools to lay a foundation for sustainable, rebust economic recovery without the fiscal partners of white house and congress. Going to need fiscal support, that means deficits for a prolonged period of time. Got to keep the fiscal support in place until the economy is Strong Enough to stand on its own. Stephanie kelton, sort of a pro prophet on this point, watched consensus move towards her, lets hope it holds. Thank you so much. Thank you, chris. What happens when leaders just give up on containing the virus . Americans pay the price with their lives. Heart wrenching look at what that looks like up close after this. Lose after this how much youll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when youre not working. A plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. Along the way, well give you ways to be tax efficient. And you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. Talk to us today, so we can help you go from saving. To living. Protect it today, enjoy it for years. With walmart protection plans by allstate. To save you up to 60 . These are all great. And when you get a big deal. You feel like a big deal. Priceline. Every trip is a big deal. The teams been working around the clock. Wire, weve had to rethink our whole approach. Were going to give togetherness. Logistically, its been a nightmare. Im not sure its going to work. Itll work. I didnt know you were listening. The depressing, enraging, unavoidable conclusion ive come to on covid policy as we have for months, hugs spots in the country are policy makers that have just given up at highest level. Theyre not trying anymore. Iowa is one of those places. Atlantics Elaine Godfrey wrote what happened, to visit iowa is travel back in time to early days of the coronavirus pandemic, new york, lombardi, seattle, when it was fresh. Raging for months but iowa is not acting like it. Author of the piece, Elaine Godfrey. Its remarkable piece of journalism and i learned a lot of from it. I was iowa is one of the midwes states in the peak, moving off top peak now. You were there a few weeks ago. What was it like . Thanks for having me, chris. Its bleak right now. Cases toward very end of november dropped, but what weve seen in iowa is no mask mandate at all. Throughout the entirety of this pandemic. Businesses have mostly stayed open. Restaurants and bars are open for dining in, drinking in, watching football game. And when i was there, in Grocery Stores people not wearing masks. Wasnt required like in d. C. Where i live right now. And november saw the highest number of new cases that iowa had ever had this pandemic. Its slowly been building, now hit this huge peak that doctors predict will become even worse after in the weeks after thanksgiving, next couple of weeks. Even after christmas if the vaccine rollout doesnt mitigate things. What was the hospital situation like . So i talked to probably a dozen Health Care Workers at university of iowa hospitals and clinics in iowa city, iowa. We stood outside in the cold and talked about what their days were like, their weeks. Its terrible. Every person i talked to had a horror story, something that just floored me about losing a 30yearold patient with no comorbidities suddenly and just the doctor, nurses and respiratory therapists hitting the ground and just sobbing. Everyone is so tired theyre been reassigned from whatever unit in the hospital they are, to intensive care or covid unit. Running out of people to administer ecmo, a last resort life support measure, theyre having to ration specialists for that procedure. And theyre worried because iowa is full of small, rural hospitals who cannot afford to postpone these surgeries. Thats how they make their money. They dont have resources. Really hurting them. State of iowa in time you were there, snapshot of what happens when it just overruns a place, now seeing that move out. Your colleagues at atlantic had incredibly upsetting piece saying u. S. Has passed the hospital breaking point. What they look at is smaller and smaller percentages of people nationwide that have covid are being admitted to the hospital. You think its great. Its not. Its not that smaller percentage of people need to be admitted, its that hospitals have run out of room, were watching it in the data. Thats totally right. Two weeks ago i talked to doctors and they said were already having to say which one of these three people is sick enough to warrant or need an icu bed because we dont have enough. Iowa City Hospital is the place where people all over iowa are sent for specialized care. If theyre very, very sick, thats where they go. Theres no room anymore. There are waiting lists. This is a huge problem. If experts are to be believed were not even near the peak yet. One thing that talk about kim reynolds, the governor similar to de santais and other republican governors. Reynolds did measures week and a half ago, limiting indoor gathers, restaurants and bars have to close by 10 00, mask or face covering, theres a lot of loopholes as you point out but seems like at concern point there was breaking point to the denial. Yes. And it seemed to have coincided with this really high number of cases and number of deaths. So november 17th, i think, when she issued that, a few days after iowa reached this peak and now its sort of lower, may be increasing again. Yes. I think people are sort of realizing we have to do something. People all over. Even if these regulations take her new mask mandate for example, doctors think it wont do anything, theyre extremely disappointed by this because of so many loopholes with the regulation. Elaine godfrey reporting in the atlantic, thank you. Thank you. Alleged bribe for pardon extreme, remember that . Those stories are next. Ose stort lets see what youve got, oculus. Dreya hey how are you so good at this . Relax. 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Want to eliminate odors without heavy, overwhelming scents . We get it. Introducing febreze light. It eliminates odors. With no heavy perfumes. In light scents youll love. New febreze light. Donald trump has not wielded the pardon power the way his predecessors did. In the past, Justice Department attorneys would examine the applications and review who should be pardoned and why, go to the press to present findings for careful consideration. Not this administration. Trump pardons whoever he wants, who gets to him in his office or who he sees on trump tv. Pardon rightwing culture warriors and people who could have incriminated him, roger stone and Michael Flynn. A judge questioned whether the pardon is too broad. But trump might just be getting started. Presidency nears end point increasingly focused on pardoning people around himself and people around him. Mulling pardons for up to 20 allies before theyve been charged with any crime. Trumps biggest backers love the idea. Why wouldnt he just pardon himself and his family on the way out the door . I think he would be right to do so, because these people are nuts. President should pardon himself, his family, his Administration Officials and any supporters who have been targeted. Tuesday night shortly before we went to air, judge unsealed heavily redacted document of Justice Department investigation into potential scheme in which white house officials may have been offered a bribe for president ial pardon or clemency. Didnt identify the target of the investigation, no one charged. Doj says no Government Official was or is currently subject or target of the investigation in the filing. Thats interesting. White house declined comment but yesterday the times seems to have broken open the case. Two Trump Associates approached by billionaire Real Estate Developer seeking clemency. Would make a political contribution to unspecified recipient. One is republican who pled guilty in october in separate case that involved covertly lobbying the Trump Administration on behalf of foreign interest. Said mr. Broidy is not under investigation or accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever says his lawyer. Second trump associate named by times is lowell. Also happens to be the lawyer for jared kushner. Lowells Attorney Says abbes role was honorable, predictable and ethical lawyering. If he approached the White House Counsels Office for clemency, it was utterly routine. Like that if there. Not currently a live investigation. But pardons can be abused or important tool of mercy, grace and to fight wrongs in the justice system. People spend entire careers tryi trying to make sure the pardon use is used widely. Someone who did that says this is unprecedented. Joins me next. Joins me next. Come on, no no nnnnono only discover has no annual fee on any card. Oh my gosh you made it did you put some ah, kale in the greens . We didnt forget about you welcome to the family. Thank you. Wooooow. Did you know you can shorten your cold wo[ ]ow. With coldeeze® lozenges. Coldeeze® can shorten your cold by 42 . It releases zinc ions that some scientists believe inhibit cold viruses from replicating. Try coldeeze® the number one bestselling zinc lozenge. Im happy to give you the tour, i lohey jay. It. Jay . Charlotte oh hi. He helped me set up my watch lists. Oh, hes terrific. Excellent tennis player. Byebye. I recognize that voice. Annie . Yeah she helped me find the right bonds for my income strategy. Youre very popular around here. Theres a birthday going on. Karl he took care of my 401k rollover. Wow, you call a lot. Yeah, well its my money were talking about here. Joining us for karaoke later . Ah, id love to, but people get really emotional when i sing. Help from a team that will exceed your expectations. Snarrow it down to alls the. Karate moms. With a sudden, desperate need for brown sugar. Meaning, you. Youre the one we made mywalgreens for. With pickup in as little as 30 minutes. To make saving, shopping. And holiday chaos a little easier. Wait are those ninjabread men . Hiya introducing mywalgreens. Join for 30minute pickup at walgreens. Com on this program ive referred to the pardon power as chekhovs gun in the situation. Anton chekhov said if you put a gun in a set in a play, it has to go off or shouldnt be up there. Pardon is one of the most absolute powers that president has. Subject of contentious debate in the convention. Some thought could lead to tyranny. With donald trump now wielding that weapon. Someone who understands the pardon system well is margaret love, served as pardon attorney under george h. W. Bush and clinton. She joins me now. Because of your experience, would love to hear what regular order for pardons looks like. Obviously tens of thousands of people in federal detention, lots of people want pardons or clemenc clemency from the president. How does it usually work . If the Justice Department part and process is followed, ordinary people file applications, whether in prison or have served sentence, with the Justice Departments pardon attorney. Case is investigated, report is written up, sent through political appointees in the Justice Department to the white house, then acted on by the president. Now i should note actually, in the past couple of decades the right order of things in the pardon process has been pretty not regular at all. It has been neglected and kind of kicked to the side even since the clinton administration. So i dont know that i really see the Trump Administration is anything but a culmination of a 30year process of meltdown of the pardon process. In terms of the pardon process, most pardons, vast majority, are for people who have been convicted, and its a grant of mercy and sometimes people have exigent circumstances, or grace to a person who is ill with a very long sentence, Something Like that. Where does preemptive pardon for a person who isnt as far as we know subject to investigation even like those happened before . Or completely New Territory . Were almost in completely New Territory. It did happen with president fords pardon of richard nixon. That was a very, very broad pardon that extended to any federal crime that would have been committed during the fiveplus years of his presidency. And but that is the only one until this president that was so preemptive, if you will, pardoning uncharged conduct. And the recent pardon of Michael Flynn was extremely broad pardon, extended not only to the charges that he had pled guilty to, but also to any conduct that he could have been charged with that took place under the jurisdiction of the special counsel. So that really makes the pardon most unusual. I think that there is some grounds to wonder whether it is too broad. Ive seen people write, one person in particular wrote a very interesting piece about how there was a qualification of specificity, that you had to be specific. And Leon Jaworski almost challenged the nixon pardon, talked about it in his memoirs and decided not to. It remains to be seen whether the very broad preemptive pardons can be challenged. Ford pardon of nixon is probably most controversial political pardon in American History. Wildly unpopular at the time, approval ranking tanked and ultimately led to carters victory in the election in 76. How does that relate to the founders conception or broader theoretical sense of the political constraint functioning on the absolute power of the pardon . Right. I think fords pardon of nixon has come to be viewed very much in the spirit of what Alexander Hamilton thought was the political use of the pardon power. He did see it largely for to remedy too severe sentences. But he also saw a distinct political use of the power, he talked about seasons of insurrection, in the time since president fords pardon its become known as very much an effort to get the country to move on from a traumatic situation. Okay. But now lets talk about i dont know if the president is serious about this. He might be. Where would you plot this on the chart of outliers, the president preemptively pardoning 20 people in his inner circle for federal crimes . Well, if that happened, it would certainly be an outlier, way off the charts. And it would be hard to justify, although it hasnt happened yet, remains to be seen how it might be justified. But in a way the i. D. Io sincratic and theatrical nature of trumps pardoning has raised some people in some folks minds, mine in particular, whether this may be a blessing in disguise. Weve asked the pardon power to do an awful lot of things in the justice system. Its an antique and clunky relief mechanism. It seems to me its high time, maybe this is the opportune time, to think about a lot of the business come to the Pardon Office ought to be rerouted into the courts. Weve done that with petitions from federal prisoners for commutation, theyve been routed into the courts. Why not full pardons . Fascinating. You wrote about president using pardons as personal plaything, ignoring the Justice Department. Margaret love, thank you, i learned a lot. Thank you very much. Ahead, how can joe biden break through the wall of bad faith that will certainly greet him going into office. How about trying to get everything done first day . Biden blitz, next. Biden blitz, next. The multiple symptoms of psoriatic arthritis. Dont use if youre allergic to cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, if your inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, or if youve had a vaccine, or plan to. Serious allergic reactions may occur. Watch me get real relief with cosentyx. And at fidelity, youll get planning and advice to help you prepare for the future, without sacrificing whats most important to you today. Because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction youre moving is forward. Still warm. Thanks, maggie. Oh, alice says hi. For some of us, our daily journey is a short one. Save 50 when you pay per mile with allstate. Pay less when you drive less. Youve never been in better hands. Allstate. Click or call for a quote today. Joe biden takes the oath of office at noon on january 20th. He will, of course, take over a deeply divided country facing immense challenges that have only grown worst over the past four years and particularly over this past year. Some of those challenges will take significant time and effort to tackle but theres actually a lot biden can do starting on day one whether or not republicans maintain control of the senate. And the speed at which he acts will matter too. Writer David Roberts of fox says the way for biden to succeed in this hyperpolarized environment is to run a blitz where he does everything at once because the only thing biden will have real control over in his administration and what it does, and his north star, his organizing principle, should be doing as much good on as many fronts as fast as possible. This is one area where biden can learn from trumps exactly. Trump simply overwhelmed the ability of the system to fasten on any one thing. The idea is to take on everything quickly and boldly and knowing some of it wont work. At the end of the day, all that matters is what gets done, put into law and on paper. The rest is paper. Im joined by the author of that piece, David Roberts. I really like the piece and it made me think a lot. Lay out the sort of theory of the blitz as you understand it. Sure. The idea is that i sort of set it up in contrast to obamas administration, who had this idea that he had a certain amount of political capital, and he could elicit cooperation from republicans by sort of moving slowly and deliberately, doing one thing at a time, taking plenty of time to negotiate, basically offering good faith attempts at cooperation. And what happens was he just got ropeadoped again and again, and it became clear i think its especially clear now in retrospect that there was never any intent to help him. It was all it was all intended to waste time because Mitch Mcconnell has recognized accurately, i think, that in hyperpolarized, twoparty politics, it really is a zerosum game. Any victory that a democratic president gets hurts republicans. So biden should assume that up front, i think. And if you know, if you needed any more proof of what the right is now, i think the trump years have cleared that up. And he should just take that onboard and realize hes not going to get help. Hes going to be confined to what he can do on his own, and he should just do it. Now, part of that i mean do it is a little complicated, right, because even if theres a 5050 senate, which democrats control nominally but they cant lose a single vote, or if Mitch Mcconnell controls the senate, like they cant just like ram through legislation, right . So what does that mean in sort of real terms with the legislative bottlenecks there might be . Honestly, my assumption has been that democrats are unlikely to win these two georgia runoffs, and thus Mitch Mcconnell is likely to be Senate Majority leader. And, thus, that legislation is more or less off the table. I mean thats thats my assumption other than sort of these emergency spending bills that have to go through to keep the government running. But youre seeing now, like, theyre already gearing up to worry about the deficit. Theyre already gearing up for opposition. So i think joe biden should already be thinking, what is the maximum freedom of motion i have . What is the maximum i can do without congress, without legislation . And it turns out there is a lot. The presidency is extremely powerful, but i think in the past, like obama was leery about using that power too much, at least early in his administration, because he didnt want to flip out the right. He didnt want to sort of lose this cooperation he thought hed might get. But if joe biden is cleareyed about the fact that hes not going to get it, period, he can just start pulling those administrative levers the second he walks in the door. And thats a really interesting idea, right, because if you think i mean i think what obama thought was there was a possibility of consensus. He also was waiting on that 60th vote in the senate. He wanted to do these big legislative things, so it was a calculation. If you go in thinking particularly if you dont win the runoffs, im not getting anything out of a Mcconnell Senate other than maybe avoiding shutdowns, maybe yeah, thats not certain. One of the things thats interesting in your piece, i think there was an idea there has been an idea, and i think joe biden might have this idea because he served in the senate for so long, that if you take these administrative actions that are provocative, you poison the well for whatever bipartisan comity there might be. And your argument is like theres none to be had, so you might as well do it. The well is full of poison. What more proof do we need . Like what do we need to see . The last ten years have been 100 consistent on the right. They have not deviated from the course of action for ten years now. The only doubt thats ever been raised about what theyre going to do next is from democrats who seem endlessly kred yew louse about the next promise of cooperation. The well is poisoned. That means what matters is the power you have and what you can do with it. That should be bidens overwhelming focus. And the other so the other thing thats really interesting is this idea of pacing, right . This, i think, is a really interesting lesson of trump because theres obviously a lot of things he did horribly terribly, like govern. But a certain way of hacking the news cycle because i think that one of the things that ive seen among democratic politicians this was true of obama they didnt want to make news. Right. Because if youre making news, then youve got controversy. If youve got controversy, then youre ebbing political capital. Youre getting questions about it. And one the ways that trump hacked that was to make so much news. And you sort of think that can be a model. Like if you do a lot of stuff, everyones always chasing the last thing you did. Right, right. And if you try not to make news, the sort of perverse outcome is you get the media really wanting to make news, right . They end up chasing every little thing. So if you wear, say, a tan suit and theres a republican willing to accuse you of treason for it, that will be a two or threeday story because theres nothing else. But what trump did is just make news every five minutes. So, you know, one scandal after another passed just because everybody was still busy sort of trying to understand it by the time the next one arrived. So no one could make a real story out of any one of these things. And what i thought might be nice to try for once, for biden, is to just do good things at the same pace so that so that, you know, the inevitable sort of like republicans are going to howl about this. Theres going to be pundits in d. C. Who scratch their chin and worry that hes not being you know, hes not reaching out enough. And theres going to be all the usual, you know, chatter in d. C. But he can just ignore that stuff, and by the time a narrative settles or sort of congeals, hes on to the next thing, doing something else. So, you know, lets try to like use the news cycle the way trump used it, you know, for the forces of good, i guess, is my idea. Its a really, really good idea, i think. I really enjoyed the piece. You can read it at vox. Com. David, thank you so much. Thanks, chris. That is all in for this week. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Chris, i love that conversation you just had with David Roberts. I read that piece. First of all it made me think of you. It made me wonder, knowing the way your brain is wired about these sort of structural and tactical things, made me wonder what your take was on it. I am fascinated that you are so into it. I am pro, yeah. Theres a lot to it. You know what one thing is . Voters memories are short. Thats another thing to remember. People say, oh this is like do stuff. Do stuff early and then just figure out what your message is with 90 days to go before the election. But do the stuff and take the hits. Particularly if the stuff that you want to do is stuff that you want to do because its stuff that you truly believe is going to be good for the country. Correct. Let the chips fall where they may. Get stuff done when you can get
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