Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. A day before our first pandemic thanksgiving, hopefully our last, and were staring into the teeth of maybe the most brutal winter we will ever face. And there were two contrasting images on display, one that represented the promise of National Leadership, and one that totally represented the absence of National Leadership that we have at the moment. President elect biden is finally formally engaged in the transition process, preparing to take over as head of the state of a nation in crisis, asking for people to stay home this thanksgiving, while offering comfort and prudent Public Health advice. While the actual sitting president of the United States for another 56 days is calling on a speakerphone to a dimly lit Wyndham Hotel in gettysburg, pennsylvania for what was essentially a glorified Conspiracy Convention like they have for flat earthers and people who believe the moon landing was fake. The president calling in on speakerphone to rant, a pathetic display of a man definitively rejected by the american public, now in the category of famous american losers. And rather provide any tangible aid or comfort or Public Health guidance to the millions of americans who are sick or afraid of getting sick or hungry or scared or out of work, donald trump chose to undermine both the election and our legal system, announcing via tweet he had pardoned Michael Flynn who twice pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi. The lame duck pardon sort of a perfect bookend for the trump presidency. It perfectly touches on so many different scandals and abuses of power over the last four years. In fact, on election day 2016, right, instead of making a lastsecond push to help donald trump get elected, Michael Flynn published an oped pushing the turkish president s personal agenda extraditing an exexiled clerk from the poconos because we would later find out, turkey was paying him to do it. I mean, trump really pardoned a man who was an unregistered Foreign Agent for turkey the day after pardoning a literal turkey in a ceremony outside the white house. Flynn resigned only four weeks into trumps presidency after lying to the fbi about conversations he had with the then Russian Ambassador before Trump Took Office when declassified transcripts show flynn was clearly trying to convince russia not to respond to the obama administrations retaliation. Again, for election sabotage in 2016 that benefitted donald trump. Before president Trump Took Office, Michael Flynn was already abusing his position to help both trump and russia dismiss russias sabotage of our election. And trump then tried to get flynn off, remember . Asking then fbi director james comey to drop the investigation. Quote, i hope you can let this go, the president told comey. Comey did not drop the fbis investigation into flynn and trump fired him shortly thereafter. When flynn announced his guilty plea, trump, quote, i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the fbi. He has plead guilty to the lies. Judge sullivan who oversaw the case telling him, quote, all along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as a National Security adviser to president of the United States. That undermines everything this flag over here stands for. Arguably, you sold out your country. Thats the man donald trump just pardoned. Judge sullivan agreed to let flynn continue to cooperate with Robert Muellers team to try to reduce his sentence. Flynn then took full advantage. Flynn hired his he fired his lawyers and hired instead trump supporting crackpot sydney powell, seen recently going around spreading all sorts of insanity about electoral fraud and powell then did what trump has done in so many cases, he dragged the process out. He dragged it out until bill Barrs Justice Department stepped in and said he wanted to withdraw flynns case, a totally unprecedented move, even though he had already pleaded guilty twice at every step along the way. Donald trump and his cronies misused their power to help Michael Flynn escape justice time and time and time again. He asked comey, he gets barr to interve intervene. Trumps lawyer john dowd even dangled the possibility of a pardon in a voice mail of flynns lawyer. And after all that, donald trump has stepped in in the last days of his presidency and pardoned flynn. Now the president is still in office for almost two months. And while he has shown no indication he wants to leave the country, ordeal with a pandemic that killed 2200 americans today, today, there is still plenty of time for him to abuse his office to enrich himself and his allies and make sure nobody pays a price. I mean, think of it this way. What would it look like, or what would it have looked like if Richard Nixon had just pardoned everyone on his way out the door . We might soon find out. His actions are what democrats warned americans during his impeachment. Democrat hines joins me. Now congressman, i suppose its not surprising, but im curious your reaction. Well, its you cant be shocked by donald trump any more. But obviously very sad. Its sad because the pardon power is completely unchecked. And its designed to give our system of justice something that it doesnt naturally have, which is mercy. So somebody who has lived an exemplary life but made a mistake, somebody who is in prison for life because they sold crack on the street three times. Thats what its designed to do. In this case, of course, the president used it in the very best reading to do a favor for somebody who provided the president with the one thing that he understands, and its loyalty to him. And in the worst case, and that is something we need to look into, this is a reward for not singing. And, you know, you can imagine its roger stone. Its paul manafort. Its any one of the half dozen people very close to the president who undoubtedly have stories to tell about the president s behavior being told stay quiet and we will fix this. Yeah, its interesting, you know. Even bill barr in his testimony when he was nominated to his position as attorney general, who had written that infamous memo saying the whole mueller thing is a fishing expedition, ridiculous, he said yeah, the pardon power is constitutionally unchecked, but even though its constitutionally unchecked, there is some legal thinking that its not you couldnt, for instance, pardon yourself, or in barrs terms, offering a pardon to a coconspirator as a reward would plainly be illegal. But we kind of know thats what the president s lawyer did. Here is the voice mail back in november 2017 of john dowd leaving this for flynns lawyer. Take a listen. Hey, rob, this is john again. Uh, maybe im sympathetic. I understand your situation. Let me see if i cant state it in starker terms. If you have it wouldnt surprise me if youve gone to make a deal with the government. If, on the other hand, theres information that implicates the president , then weve got a National Security issue. You know, then we need some kind of heads up. Remember what weve always said about the president and his feelings toward flynn and all that still remains. Its not even really that subtle when you listen to it in context. No, no its not. And, again, sadly, were going to have this conversation i think a lot in the next 56 days which this president remains president. Because there are any number of people, close to a dozen people very close to donald trump, all of whom probably have the same kind of information that Michael Cohen had on donald trump. Michael cohen famously actually did speak, wrote a book. You can count on the idea that Michael Cohen will not get a pardon, but paul manafort, roger stone, who already had his sentence commuted, any number of other people this is all about the president trying to insulate himself from accountability. And i would point out, chris, that in some ways the president is probably buttressed by president elect bidens approach here, which is to say that, you know, were going to reunite the country. And by the way, im not saying thats necessarily the wrong thing to do. I think the country has a lot of restitching that needs to happen. But, you know, it cannot possibly be lost on donald trump this joe biden is not out for blood on this issue. So i think were going to see more pardons, more blatantly corrupt activity in the coming weeks. You know, there is a weird irony here that ive been thinking about since the news crossed which is that when you go through the timeline, right, the president took all these extraordinary inappropriate means to put the thumb on the scale for Michael Flynn. He has everyone leave the room and he says to comey, directly asks the fbi director, would you cut the guy a break. Fires the fbi director when he doesnt do it. He then gets his attorney general, department of justice for an unprecedented reaching in to withdraw a guilty plea, right . That leads the judge to get an outside lawyer to file a brief for the court to say like this is this okay. And in the end of all that, he just uses the pardon power he always had constitutionally. He could have done this day one. He could have done it the day after he fired him. Instead of all the corrupt subterfuge. No, youre absolutely right. This isnt the most competent beginning of people that weve seen, thank god. If donald trump had some confidence about him, we might be in a much more serious situation than we are right now with the demands that this election be overturned. But the point is there is only one thing that has ever mattered to donald trump, and that is deep, deep loyalty to him and to him only. From the moment he talked to james comey and said i need your loyalty, and whatever you think of jim comey, jim comey pushed back on that. And the president said no, i need your loyalty that is what defines this president. And it has warped our government institutions. Bill barr, the attorney general very early on, not a dumb man, he learned that lesson. He turned the department of justice into a defense firm, a Legal Defense firm for donald trump. People like john ratliff, people like Richard Grenell turned our Intelligence Community into a Political Support mechanism for the president of the United States. This, of course, is what the new President Joe Biden is going to have to fix when he takes office on january 20th. All right. Congressman jim himes, thank you so much for coming out. Have a great thanksgiving. Thank you, chris. John brennan served in National Security roles for decades, most recently director of the Central Intelligence agency in the obama administration, and he joins me now. Whats your reaction to this . Well, the saga of mike flynn is an unfortunate sad tale of two men. One was a military officer who honorably served for over 30 years and rose to the rank of threestar general. The other is civilian mike flynn who unfortunately fell under the sway of some unfortunate influences and decided to opt for cutting corners and forgetting the obligations that he had when he was a military officer in terms of honesty and integrity and making sure that he lives up to those principles and values that really are supposed to be part of the dna of any military officer. And unfortunately, the pardon now that has been granted to mike flynn, given that the criminal violations that he was convicted of really are intertwined with Donald Trumps behavior and his activities, i think it really does suggest very strongly that there was corrupt intent there on the part of donald trump. And i think its going to further blemish i think both of their reputations in the future. You know, its interesting. What Michael Flynn pleaded to was lying to the fbi. But that was, as often happens in plea, prosecutors have things they could charge you with. They choose not to. You plead to something relatively minor the face of that as part of the bargaining for your cooperation. The thing that they pretty clearly charged him with and didnt is being an unregistered Foreign Agent of the government of turkey to the tune of 600,000 while working on a campaign in transition, and not disclosing that while publicly advocating and privately it appears advocating for top Foreign Policy prerogatives of the erdogan government that part of the story is a really remarkable breach, and its not even touched by the law here. Yeah, its beyond credulity that mike flynn didnt understand what he was doing was wrong, whether it was being an unregistered Foreign Agent or whether it was talking to the russians and undermining i think the transition principles that really do are in place when it goes from one administration to another. So the honorable thing for mike to do, and i served as director of cia when mike was a director of dia, so i worked alongside him. The honorable thing would be for him to confess to his guilt and take his punishment, and maybe at some 90 the future, a sentence would have been commuted or whatever. But the way this has been done, the way that mike unfortunately has tried to avoid these charges and avoid responsibility that he really should take, again, as a former very, very Senior Member of the u. S. Army as well as National Security adviser, this just sends a very, very bad signal, not only to americans, but also to folks around the globe that this type of activity and behavior is taking place in our government in 2020. What do you think about this window were in right now . The period of time now where theres, you know, constitutionally there is a gap between election day and the swearing in of a new president. We have one president at a time. Donald trump is the president of the United States until january 20th. And clearly, hes been unconstrained all along, but would seem to be even more unconstrained now. You know, i served in government during several transitions of one administration to the other. I never had a worry that something was happening on the part of the outgoing president that really was going to hurt the incoming administration. But clearly we have somebody who has acted very abnormally over the last four years in donald trump. And the fact that he is a very lame duck now and has basically less than two months left in position of the presidency, who knows what he might decide to do in addition to handing out pardons like cookies what he might decide to do on the home front as far as either maybe politicizing the u. S. Military. Im still rather concerned about why he decided to move mark esper and other Senior Pentagon officials. Was it just so you could draw down iraq and afghanistan . Or does he have Something Else up his sleeve that he may decide to do with the u. S. Military, including, but hopefully not, some type of military venture overseas. This is not surprising that donald trump is going down this road. What i find appalling is the fact that we have the members of the Republican Party in congress that continue to turn a blind eye to these types of activities. When you think about the Michael Flynn you knew, you know, its striking to me as were watching sydney powell and Rudy Giuliani the other day in that press conference. These are people that dont have substantial resumes. They both have very august ones, as did Michael Flynn. He was highly respected. He was the head of dia. He ended up getting essentially fired which i think really angered him, i think partly bouz of his management. Do you have a theory when you look at someone like him that you work with, that you know and look at his trajectory subsequently . Mike was always a head strong individual, and he was convinced of the rightness of his views. But i dont know what it is that leads individuals to go astray. Ive had discussions with many fbi officers, agents over the years. And looking at individuals, whether it be in business, finance, or government who have led stellar lives up until a point where they decide to take that fork in the road that skirts the law. And violates the principles and the ethics and the values they may have lived by before. I think this is something that really has been enhanced as a result of donald trump being in the white house, that too many individuals forget that the responsibilities they have as government officials, as u. S. Citizens to honor the law, to honor honesty and integrity. And i think there needs to be a look back on what has happened now the last several years as a result of this presidency and the corrosive affect that its had on what i think really needs to be embedded in our government, which is the trust that the American People can have in the people who are carrying out these very solemn and sacred responsibilities. Yeah, that trust has been eroded for many year, exacerbated now. John brennan, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you, chris. Tonight there are millions of struggling americans in the midst of a deepening economic crisis headed towards a precipice, and theyre begging for help. The ugly crisis that the republican president and his allies or ignoring, next. So its pretty clear that 2020 has been unlike any year in the history of the American Economy buzz of the pandemic. When you look at it, the stats dont look like any other year. Financial crisis, recessions. We shut down an enormous part of the economy, nearly all of it leaving some businesses barely hanging on, Many Americans in incredibly dire straits. And then through the c. A. R. E. S. Act, the government injected Something Like 4 trillion back into that economy that we had shut down to deal with the pandemic. And there was a lot about that bill that was really effective. It was flawed in some ways, but a lot was really good. It did a tremendous amount of good for a lot of people. 1200 stimulus checks, the additional 600 per week Unemployment Benefits above what people would have gone from their salary being prorated. That gave Many American families a desperately needed safety net. In fact, that money, this is crazy, helped people both spend and save more during the pandemic than in normal times. The money from that bill alone helped keep 12 million americans out of poverty. 12 million people, which is obviously pretty significant during a pandemic when people need extra resources to stay safe. And now it was obvious from the beginning that we werent just going to shelter in place during march and april and the virus was going to disappear and everything go back to normal. That was very clear. Well said 80 tonight show night in, night out for months. We knew from the beginning this would be a long battle, and that the battle against the virus would continue to severely impact the economy and peoples livelihoods and the budgets of states and municipalities, even when people started to sort of get back out into the world. Democrats understood that. That is why the house passed another rescue package way back in may, right, to keep the economy afloat during the rest of the pandemic. The c. A. R. E. S. Was the beginning of it. Okay, here is another bill. But youll remember mitch mcconnell, the rest of the Republican Party, their whole line on this was they wanted to pretend everything was fine, everything was back to normal. Remember the president said to get back out there like soldiers on a battlefield . So they took the position, no. We dont need any more help. I think they thought if you gave more help, people wouldnt get out on to the battlefield. They wouldnt go out to work, right . So we were basically stuck for months. Nothing passed. The senate under political pressure passed a few symbolic measures. Mcconnell has been totally awol from any negotiations. Said his caucus probably wouldnt pass it. So now here we are. Its six months later. Its the day before thanksgiving. 2200 americans died today. 2,000 americans dieing a day. That might get up to 3,000 the way things are going. There is 90,000 americans hospitalized tonight. The president is currently sitting in the white house apparently just watching tv all day, including far right wing Digital Networks streaming his Conspiracy Theory shows and perpetuating his own Conspiracy Theorys to help him feel less like the loser he is. And mcconnell sent the senate home for the recess without helping millions of americans struggling in the pandemic and the covid economy. And here is the thing. All that money that was pumped into the economy, that did good is trickling to an end, and it is absolutely dire out there right now. Jeff stein is the white house economics reporter for the washington post, giving a front row seat to much of what is going on right now and has been doing some of the best reporting in america on what the economic realities people are facing are. I thought maybe, jeff, because your reporting on this has been so good, what are peoples economic situations . Its a big country. Its a complicated economy. People in different places. But what is the level of need and desperation right now . There are obviously a lot of different ways to measure the Economic Health of the nation. But an obvious one is hunger. Are people getting enough. Let me just focus on this one statistic for a second. Before the pandemic in the fall of 2019, about 4 of americans, 4 reported going hungry. Obviously too high. But 4 . Now youre looking at closer to 12 . 12 . Basically tripling. Thats a little abstract. Another way of putting it is about 8 million americans went hungry before the pandemic. And now were looking at 26 million americans going hungry. Of course this is a very big countriry, right . And there are very wealthy parts of it, parts shah have been more spared from the pandemic than others, and youre seeing much higher numbers than that in some parts of the country. In houston, for instance, which has been dealing with an oil shock in addition to a very, very severe covid outbreak, 30 of families are struggling to get enough to eat. 30 in a major american city. Prices of unbelievable proportions and perhaps even scarier still, were only in the beginning of the winter, right . We havent even hit the winter. And if the covid crisis intensifies, if the number of cases continues to increase, were going to see around the same time a number of Economic Relief programs authorized by congress that were only set to go to the end of the year. Those are going to expire. Benefits for the jobless. Benefits for renters, for borrowers, thats going to go away. That the pandemic has affected. So its a very scary moment, and hunger is a very of that. All those things you said, there is also a connection between those and the Public Health crisis were in now. Weve been saying this of the program, which is local and state officials know that people are in dire straits, and there is not more help coming right now. And theyre making Public Health decisions based on that. Youre going to put a bar out of business, you probably should close bars with the amount of community transmission. But that means some people lose their jobs, land is nothing on the other end for them. Theyre choosing to keep stuff open that probably should be closed precisely because of the economic is to dire and there is so much desperation, as you know. One of the scariest trends that weve seen according to a lot of the economists i talked to on a regular basis is whats happening particular to single mothers. You have young kids at home and your school shuts down, and you are the sole breadwinner, you are often faced with dropping out of the labor market or who knows what your kids are doing during the day. Were seeing a very, very dangerous trend in that regard. Just on the restaurants you mentioned, one of the numbers that i. So shocked by, Everyone Needs to know. 40 of restaurants face closure without aid by the end of february. 40 . Just think about how many bars, restaurants, diners and massive impact that will have if thats allowed to happen. Were going to face real i think its incumbent, its worth pointing out that mcconnell did not put on the table what democrats wanted, but he did put forward a bill that was 500 billion that would have ameliorated some of the suffering were seeing now and democrats have rejected it. Nancy pelosi called the white houses 1. 8 trillion offer not a half of a loaf, a heel of a loaf. Obviously democrats are saying they were not willing to sacrifice anyone and they wanted a bigger package. But republicans put something out there. And its not clear if thats the one the people want. My final question is this. There is 500 billion from mcconnell, although its unclear if he could get his own caucus to pass it. The white house checked out since the election day. We know the democrats want 2 trillion or more. Are there negotiations happening . And is there a number you can walk into the capitol and drop right now and get a vote on tomorrow . I dont think they would listen to me. And the question of are there talks happening right now, not really. I mean, we are hearing rumors sort of different senators pulling each other and this is a real problem. We should probably figure out something to do. But ultimately in the Nations Capital right now, power is held by a very small number of people, pelosi, mcconnell, incoming President Joe Biden, and president. And that for wright now, there are not negotiations happening as were looking at this. All right. Jeff stein has been doing great reporting on this for the washington post. Thank you so much. Thank you, chris. Still ahead, was the cdcs thanksgiving guidance too little too late . New reports on how people are planning to celebrate and what hospitals are doing to prepare for the worst, just ahead. T, ju. As we sit down for thanksgiving this week, a lot of us thanks to the pandemic are farther from our families than we would like. But while we prepare smaller meals this year, its important to remember where all that food comes from. Farm worker, many who are poorly paid and relatively unprotected from the coronavirus have kept food on Grocery Store shelves for months and in our nations food banks, which are more critical this year than just about ever before. To help recognize those workers, the labor union asked people to tweet their favorite thanksgiving dish and find out how it got to their table. And it is really worth taking a look at these workers and their stories and the work they do. Like amadeo, showing how he and his coworkers harvest beets like the ones your family might roast or put in potato salad. Or if your salad has radishes instead, here is Patricia Pulling up and bunching radishes together. Look at that. She earns 1. 86 per crate. Each crate contains 60 bundles of radishes. The brussels sprouts. Because brussels sprouts grow on a tough woody stem, workers need strength and precision to avoid serious injury as they chop down the sprout plants. Other workers need to put the stalks into processors that separate out the individual sprouts. If you enjoy turnups, they also take a lot of skill to harvest without shopping up a finger. This is charlely. He earns about 75 cents per bucket of cut turnips. As the fastest worker in his crew, he clears about 25 buckets an hour. Do you enjoy onions . In indiana, a state that doesnt have heat or shade requirements. Its a 12hour a day job. There are a ton more of these videos and workers stories on the united farm workers twitter feed. I highly recommend you and your families, with your kids, take a look to get a sense where all the food comes from. While youre sitting down to dinner, maybe getting into zoom discussions about what workplaces or schools are going to open next year, what youre going to do, remember this, what youre seeing there, cutting the turnips, this is what essential work looks like, as we start to plan for who gets first crack at a vaccine, keep these farm workers in mind, much like meat packing plant. They have to go to work with minimal protections and low pay to gather food we all eat. Thats why there is a push for california to prioritize Agricultural Workers in the first round of vaccinations. They should be a priority. Honestly, it doesnt matter if google or twitter or big banks or nbc employees come back to the office now, in six months or a year. It really doesnt matter that much. But it matters that those folks are out there working. Well all rely on these farm workers for our most basic needs. Neif you have medicare, listen up. The medicare enrollment deadline is only days away. With so many changes, do you know if your plan is still the right fit . Having the wrong plan may cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket. And thats why i love healthmarkets, your insurance marketplace. With healthmarkets fitscore, they compare thousands of plans from National Insurance companies to find the right medicare plan that fits you. Call or visit healthmarkets to find your fitscore today. In minutes, you can find out if your current plan is the right fit, and once youve let the fitscore do the work, sit back and enjoy not having to shop for insurance again. 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Perhaps here is the worst part, in the gray the number of deaths. 2,284 americans gone just today, and putting us on a trajectory to meet or exceed the death tolls that we saw at the worth part of this pandemic back in april. Now this is all happening as we are people are about to have thanksgiving tomorrow. And a lot of people, including the cdc have urged people not to get together in groups for thanksgiving. It has been turned quite cynically in a culture war skujle by some on the right, including senator ted cruz who seemed more interested on trolling on social media rather than giving people good advice on how to protect their loved ones. Erin banco has been writing what could happen this thanksgiving if people ignore the warnings from the task force around the holiday. Erin, what has your reporting indicated the perception of those folks in the White House Task force about where we are and what thanksgiving could do . So we took about a couple of weeks to report this out. And right in the middle of our reporting, the cdc announced new guidelines and recommendations with thanksgiving holiday, including advice from people not to travel and to not get together with people outside their house. And this is sort of seen by officials as a last ditch attempt to convince americans not to travel for thanksgiving. And if they do travel to wear masks indoors and social distance and be outside. But a lot of the officials we spoke to said the guidelines came a little bit too late, right. People had already made their plans to travel for thanksgiving, and those people who had previously pushed back on mask mandates and social distancing werent going to all of a sudden change their habits. So the fear is that those counties in america that are already struggling with high hospitalization rates, new cases and death, the situation is about to get a whole lot worse. We spoke to some doctors in wisconsin who are particularly fearful that the worst is yet to come with the third wave of the coronavirus. We spoke to one nurse who said she is getting more and more pediatric cases of covid and there are no beds left. We talked to dr. Anthony fauci who said listen, if people dont follow these guidelines, were in big trouble. One of the really maddenings a scene of the accident is that from a Public Health perspective, it matters a lot that you have clear, consistent, durable messaging. Everyone rowing in the same direction, everyone saying look, this is terrible to be away from people you love on thanksgiving. We really think this is going to do a good job that didnt happen until very late in the game here, right . Youve got scott atlas saying look, this might be the last thanksgiving you can have. Get in there, a few days before the task force managed to reassert some authority over the process. It real di doesnt seem like there is any real unified message out of the administration. Thats right. The messaging has broken down in recent months. A lot of people cant really rely on which agency is going to say what, and especially there is a real split between the white house messaging and of course messaging from the cdc and other top health agencies. But youre right. These are recommendations that came too late there has been some evidence that the New York Times did a study and a couple of others did some polling around this. There has been some indication that some people, some portions of the population are planning on staying home and staying safe. But the real fear is those portions of the populations that had already stopped responding to Public Health guidelines are not going to listen this time around. And so fear is that especially in Rural Communities that are really cash strapped and are suffering from ppe shortages and bed shortages, and staffing shortages that if people gather for thanksgiving, theyre going to see the situation get a whole lot worse, and the staffing situation in particular is of concern. Yeah we should note that we have so many things in the pandemic. Weve done this before, right . Memorial day, july 4th, fauci talked about this. When we have holidays, people get together, its totally understandable people want to get together on holidays. Thats what makes holidays great. But it has a cause and effect. And if it happens again here, were already past capacity. The hospitals are already on the verge of melting down. So its really important people take that seriously. If youre listening to me right now, please, please do what you can and take that to heart. Erin banco who has been doing great reporting on this, thanks. Thanks. Next, how president elect biden can manage the growing catastrophes without congress, which he may have to do. Heather mcghee joins me right after this. In 56 days, joe biden will be sworn in as the president of the United States, and the big outstanding question right now is will he have a Democratic Congress . The democrats will control the house, of course, but democratic control of the senate rests on those two runoffs in georgia. Raphael warnock and jon ossoff are running to take on the incumbents Kelly Loeffler and david perdue in those races. If they win, theyll have 5050, Kamala Harris breaking the tie. Heres the thing. Even if they win, a 5050 senate in which you need every member of your caucus to pass anything is going to be a real uphill battle for big, sweeping, domestic legislative accomplishments. So joe biden and the Biden Administration, the people staffing the administration have to be thinking now about how to use the tools of the executive to further a Progressive Agenda. And to help get a better understanding of that, think about what that might look like, i want to talk to Heather Mcghee board cochair of color of change. And anand giridharadas. His latest piece is called the afterlife of the resistance. Anand, you had an interview with Chuck Schumer a few weeks before the election, and this was, you know, National Polling averages missed by about four or five points. So at that point National Polling averages, they have biden at plus eight. Hes going to end up with plus four. If it was the universe of biden plus eight, there would probably be a four or fivevote senate margin, right . Its not the world we live in. Chuck schumer is talking about an fdrsized presidency in that interview. This is a different world. How do you think folks should think about this world in terms of pursuing a Progressive Agenda . Well, it was interesting. Chuck schumer surprised me in that interview. It was actually the day before the election. The polls were still sort of, as you say. But what surprised me was although in the interview with me schumer was was partly assuming the world in which he would be Senate Majority leader and joe biden would have a sympathetic, Ambitious Senate doing his bidding, he didnt only assume that world. So he gave me the kind of laundry list of what we would want to do in that world, ambitious environmental legislation, health legislation, so on and so forth. I should just say, a lot of ambitious things that Chuck Schumer is not famous for. The kinds of things that the centrist, you know, element of the party has not been famous for. And he said very forthrightly just on that legislative stuff that he and the party in the obama years has been too unambitious and that there needs to be a change in direction, bold, progressive change. So that was interesting. And then we talked about the scenario in a way without the senate. And what he said there surprised me even more, where he said biden should do some incredibly bold things through executive action. Some of them, you know, less controversial, like rejoining the paris accord, things that a lot of democrats have already voiced support for. But as an example, Chuck Schumer also said the proposal he latched onto from elizabeth warren, that joe biden should by executive order wipe out 50,000 of student debt from millions of americans. That is something that can happen on day one of a biden presidency. And so, yes, there is a whole bunch of big, important things that need legislative action that may not be possible in the next two years, which is sad. But theres a whole bunch of stuff that will change tens of millions of peoples lives that can be done. Yeah. The folks at the american prospect have a list, the dayone agenda. Dozens and dozens of things that joe biden can do by himself. And so the question is actually not just going to be what does mitch want . The question is going to be what does joe want . And is joe willing to go big, fight hard, prioritize making peoples lives better over reaching out to republicans . Heather, how do you view this given the lessons of the obama years, right . So barack obama takes office in a very different situation in some ways politically, has 59 senate votes and then 60 when frankens sworn in. Hes got both houses. Of course its also, again, in the midst of a catastrophe, right . So theres this terrible prioritization problem that both administrations face. What do you do . This is a very different scenario. What lessons do you see sort of moving over from the last time we were here . Well, i was in washington, d. C. Running demos Washington Office at that time, and it was a heady time. There was a 60vote democratic majority in the senate, something we can only dream of now. But i think there are two lessons. One is youve got to make sure to start painting republicans with the same brush you are painting donald trump with. I think it was a huge mistake that was done in order to try to win over republicans to the democratic to the top of the ticket, which was basically giving permission for people to vote for republicans downballot. And i think weve got to make sure that the American People know that trump is not an aberration, that hes an outgrowth of the Republican Party, and the Republican Party should be tied with them. And as they block these kinds of reforms that the American People need, this relief that the American People need, the gloves have to come off. It has to be Crystal Clear in the American Peoples minds who is responsible. But also there is so much that can be done. Obviously one of the biggest ones is elizabeth warrens Student Loan Debt cancellation. Thats money in peoples pockets right away. That affects every generation actually thats touched by Student Loan Debt. We can also do things on criminal justice and policing, particularly for the Africanamerican Community that joe biden said he would have our backs because of the way we had his. Appoint reform prosecutors, bring back the pattern and practice investigations into corrupt departments. We can use the irs and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to crack down on the wall street greed and pandemic profiteering weve been seeing. We can use the housing and urban development, hud, to enforce fair housing. Obviously there are hundreds of executive orders that donald trump issued that need to be repealed, but theres even farther that the Biden Administration can go. And, anand, you know, the thing i think about is Stephen Miller, right . You know, Stephen Miller im sorry if youre thinking about that. Well, he believes in what he believes in, and he has some technical knowhow about how the law works and he has used it to terribly tremendous and dangerous effect, cruel effect. But you need a bunch of people like that in all areas, in climate, in health care of people who care and people who are willing to push the envelope to get stuff done. Thats true. And its really worth remembering i mean in a lot of my writing about how plutocracy works in america, theres this dynamic where when Business People want to change the system in a way that benefits them, theyre masters of how change is made. But when theyre told they should do the opposite and change things in the direction of more peoplefriendly policies, theyre suddenly like, well, its so hard to know how to get things done. Democrats need to be as good and aggressive. Anything that can be done this way can also be done that way. Its a political law of physics. Yeah. Heather mcghee and anand giridharadas, thank you both for making time tonight. If you find yourself with a little extra time this week, maybe while youre cooking or relaxing safely at home, and you feel up the urge to pull up twitter and start doom scrolling, dont. Stop. Instead, listen to this weeks episode of why is this happening . I spoke to author and political scientist etan hirsch about online activism, what he calls political hobbyism. Listen to learn about the dangers of doom scrolling and what it looks like to do Political Action that creates real, tangible, meaningful change. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. That is all in for this wednesday night. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now with ali velshi in for rachel. Good evening, ali. Doom scrolling is bad, but your twitter feed is actually very nice, chris. In enjoy it. You mix great political criticism with some just good downhome fun. Nice to see you, my friend. Polm with good, downhome fun. Nice to see you, my friend. Have a good evening and a great thanksgiving. You, too. Well, thank you for joining us this hour and happy thanksgiving eve. Rachel has the night off, but dont worry, she and susan are fine. Now, look, Everybody Knows president ford pardoned Richard Nixon. It is the most consequential pardon in american history, the one by which all others have since been measured. But what people may not remember is what a surprise it was at the time that it happened. A month earlier, nixon had famously resigned the presidency under the threat of impeachment, and he left the white house aboard marine one, handing the presidency off to his Vice President , gerald
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