For the 2020 election. Michigan secretary of state on the republican push to deny joe Biden Victory and what the fire of chris krebs means for us all. Why is senator from South Carolina calling a secretary from georgia . Election interference. And alert the net work. All the net works. Wow. Rudy giuliani show in court. Lawyer who argued against him joins me live. Good evening from new york. Breaking news out of michigan. Two republican members of the four person board of canvassers in wayne county michigan tasked with certifying the results of the election decided not to do that. Citing virtually no evidence of bad faith move. Wayne county of course the most populous in the state. With detroit. It went for joe biden with over 320,000 votes. Republican chairman of the board. Said she would be open to certifying the vote in communities other than detroit. Interesting. Wonder what shes getting at. Local reporter calls it unprecedented in 20 years of covering government in detroit. It was called reckless and irresponsible. Michigan Republican Party is prepared. Coming out with a statement from the state chair. Which reads in part. I am proud that due to the efforts of the michigan Republican Party the committee and Trump Campaign enough evidence of irregularity and potential voter fraud was uncovered resulting in the refusal to certify election results. This appears to be a flag rant attempt by republicans to openly steal an election that joe biden won by a 148,000 votes statewide in michigan. Joining me now. Michigan secretary of state. Great to have you on. Just talk me through often does this ever happen . How unprecedented or weird is it for this small board to for the republican commissioner to say were not certifying. Its rare. This is a board that performs a function of certifying results. They have in every election in years past. Even just this past august. Even with significant greater clerical error. So it really is disheartening considering obviously this is majority black city. And here are two individuals going far beyond their role to invalidate the votes of tens of thousands of africanamericans in the state of michigan. I want to be clear. The two individuals here. William heartman. And Monica Palmer. Who are saying nope we will not sign off on this free and Fair Election in the state. Its not just them. This is the Michigan Republican chair saying i am proud that due to the efforts of michigan gop enough evidence was uncovered resulting in the board refusing to certificatety the election result. This is a top to bottom coordinated effort. Its not true. There were not irregularity or fraud discussed today flt it was clerical error that will go to the bureau of elections. Which is under my office. To fully address. We will. Theres no indication any votes were wrongly tabulated or that any invalid votes existed or tabulated. Its really just a clerical issue that will be resolved by the state. And nothing more than attempt to misuse the roles to play partisan politics and cause confusion. Which is the norm that we have seen throughout the election. What happens now . Theres an impasse. Two to two board. They have to agree. Bipartisan board. Whats the next step . The state board of canvassers will in the meeting tomorrow morning give the bureau of elections the responsibility of completing the canvas. Issues of voter showing up or not voting or spoiling a ballot. Basic things that happened in communities across the state. And cleaning them up. Addressing them. Finding explanations and submitting it. Were full steam ahead. Were not going to allow blatant partisan attempts to disenfranchise africanamerican votes. And im the bureau of elections committed to ensuring that votes are counted. And voices are heard in every community throughout the state. In terms of the state board. Is it the same make up as these county boards sort of two and two bipartisan boards . It is. Two republicans and two democrats. Who we hope and expect will do the right thing. They always have done. The responsibility they have is to turn this can haves over to the bureau of election. And they will then complete the canvas. And resubmit the adults. They have ten days. As we have said across the board throughout this process. This additional scrutiny will reveal what we know is the truth in michigan. There are no irregularity or fraud. Were committed to making sure the votes of the people of michigan and the results that are accurate as a reflection of the will of people will carry the day through the final serification of the results. Did this take you be surprise . I was very disappointed. But sadly given the partisan. I was not surprised. We have seen attempts to under mine the will of the voters throughout the election cycle. Particularly after the election. Since the American People have spoken. We see attempts to confuse citizens about the results. This is an extension of that. And under mine the will of the people. Were not standing for it. We ensure every vote will count and the certification will be an official reflection ot people. I want to play from a zoom hearing with this board. The Vice President for Economic Development at wayne state university. Who was noft so happy with what the two individuals on the did and kind of read them the riot act. I just want to let you know that the trump stick the stain of racism, that you william heartman and Monica Palmer was covered yourself in. Will follow you throughout history. Your grandchildren will think of you like bull connor. Or george wallace. Forever be known in michigan as two racists who did something so unprecedented that they disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of black voters in the city of detroit. Because they were ordered to. Probably you think some crazy stuff. When you try to sleep tonight millions of people around the world know the name. And as two people completely racist and without an understanding of what integrity means or a shred of human decency. The law is not on your side. History is not on your soy. When you meet your maker your soul will be very warm. A resident upset. Whether the intent by the commissioners is as says ib dependent of that. What i say is this is going on all over the state. Youre not getting this in other places. This was an extraordinary action by the two individuals. You bipartisan boards and counties that are swing counties. You have republicans all over the state. This was a distinct action. It was. It was also stark that the fact that the city of a counter next to detroit. But has a different population. White city. Was called out in the hearing as having more clerical errors and than the city of detroit. But didnt raise the same ire and focus from the members. Who voted the way they did. What gives me hope and the people have spoken. The votes are clear. Truth is on our side. Well continue to ensure that the voice of the people are hard. Of the votes are validly counted and flekted in the full certification of the results and the state lel that any of the unjustices today will be rectified and shed light on the truth and facts. There is no fraud. And the results of michigan election is indeed accurate le flexion of the will of the people and should be respected. Secretary of state state of michigan. Thank you for talking about this. Whats going on in wayne county one participant of the broad effort across the country. Enabled and pushed by the president on twitter and raef lisle. And in the court. Were continuing to learn about. The extent of the efforts of the president and the people that will carry his water. To over turn a democratic election. Its extreme. President the supporters and senator graham chair of judiciary committee. Yesterday georgia secretary of state told the Washington Post he had a conversation with the senator on friday graham appear today suggest he find a way to toss legally cast ballots. Secretary of state credit tla suggestion was a nonstarter and additional reporting from the wall street journal revealed graham called twice. And secretary had staffers with him on the second call and agreed not to act on the suggestion. This morning he described disengaging from the conversation. The way you might with a crazy uncle. Or recruit you into a crazy conspiracy. I really just got off the call and circle back and talked to counsel. We decide the best action is not get back and reengage. I thought we were asking whats the status of the senator race. I went down the other path. The best thing is disengage and move forward. With me now Senior Adviser of the lincoln project. It was all a lie author. How the Republican Party became donald trump. Were what seeing before us, you have the two individuals, heartman and palmer. Board of canvassers. I dont know them. Normal, local republicans. There are thousands like them. Taking this extraordinarily authoritarian antidemocratic step. Lindsey graham calling around to find out if maybe we can throw out some ballots. This is how do you make sense of what youre seeing . I think we see call it what it was. Attempt to under mine want democratic process of the United States of america. Its hinged with racism. Africanamericans didnt support donald trump. They want to throw out the votes. It is like bull connor. Its worse. The spire Republican Party almost with exception of a few people at the top refuse to admit who won the presidency of the United States. In a race that was not particularly close. I really dont know what base level of democratic responsibility you have. You take an oath of office and you are unwilling to say who won an election. Its extraordinary. I doubt this really unbelievable that nothing like this happened before. Its extraordinarily cowardly. And fundamentally destructive to the process. People believe these people. Whats striking to me is we talk about norms. In the trump era. The point the word gets sort of chewed out. Until it doesnt have taste. What it means. To me when you look at the county board of canvassers. That arent doing what the two individuals did. Or it is the case. This whole thing does basically go on with people acting with integrity and under norm and tradition. To not subvert democratic elections and in a coordinated fashion. And most republicans have been doing that. Its these at the top who are promoting it. And the out liars. But the most dangerous. Thats a history of how these democracies unravel. What happens in germany. Its at the top. Its a responsibility that they have to be democratic supporting citizens. Before they are republican. I know a lot of these people. It baffles me. These are not bad people. If they live next door to you they would be great neighbors. Saw you stranded on the road they would stop. They dont grasp what theyre doing. The trust of government is is a thread that holds Civil Society together. Tla are taking a machete to it. And seem to have no qualms about it. We have news just before i came on the show. Theres an individual chris krebs who runs Cyber Security of the United States government. And similar to his credit, been active publicly saying there was no systemic fraud. This election was safe and secure. It was a free and Fair Election. It was administered without the conspiracy theories. Knocking them down tonight. The president fired him on twitter. Precisely because of that. The recent statement on the security of the 2020 election was inaccurate. Therefore Effective Immediately he has been terminated. They are seeding a Conspiracy Theory that will last for a long time. Yeah. Before the election if trump you said you can win the election it will be the last election we have in america. I think its his response is whats the catch . He doesnt care. We know that he dint doesnt care. Thats the Party Responsibility comes in. If donald trump wasnt elected all the republicans werent elected. Democrats can press this. Democrats with refuse to seat republicans elected to the house. Democrats can refuse to allocate the money to fund trump post presidency. They can play these games. Its extraordinarily destructive. This will pass. Strump not going to be the next president of the United States. The lingering sort of toxic chemical released in the system is very hard to undo. Stewart stevens whose book it was all lies. Excellent. I recommend it. Up next the Trump Campaign sends top guy Rudy Giuliani to court in a bisless bid to get thousands of votes thrown out. I will talk to the lawyer who argued against him. Do you have a Life Insurance policy you no longer need . Now you can sell your policy, even a term policy, for an immediate cash payment. Call Coventry Direct to learn more. We thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. But we quickly realized that we needed a way to supplement our income. Our friends sold their policy to help pay for their medical bills and that got me thinking. Maybe selling our policy could help with our retirement. Im skeptical, so i did some research and called Coventry Direct. They explained Life Insurance is a valuable asset that can be sold. We learned that we can sell all of our policy or keep part of it with no future payments, who knew . We sold our policy. Now we can relax and enjoy our retirement as we had planned. If you have one hundred thousand dollars or more of Life Insurance you may qualify to sell your policy. Dont cancel or let your policy lapse without finding out what its worth. Visit conventrydirect. Com to find out if you policy qualifies. Or call the number on your screen. Coventry direct, redefining insurance. Trump campaign dangerously malignant and cartoonish efforts to steal the election are not over. Rudy giuliani appeared in pennsylvania to make sweeping and baseless claims in a last ditch effort to keep the state from certifying election results. Thats what theyre trying to do in state after state. Its a state that joe biden has won by 73,000 votes. And some still left to count. The Court Appearance comes after the Trump Campaign dropped their most serious allegations in the case. And two different sets o of lawyers quit. Then just yesterday the campaign replaced them with mark a lawyer and talk show host. Who said on the day the race was called for joe biden that litigation will not work. And to reverse the election. Now the Trump Campaign has put one man in charge of the election stealing efforts. Jack of all trade. The hero of the battle of the four seasons landscaping. Star of the borat movie. The rude ster. He hasnt argued in front of a federal judge in 28 years. His membership in the bar is suspended because of unpaid fees. He was arguing for the president in front of a federal judge today. Im joined by the attorney who argued against him today. Representing philadelphia. Good to have you on. I wonder if we can start with what was the case . What was the Trump Campaign asserting and the argument before the judge . The Trump Campaign came in through mr. Giuliani asserting a fantasy world. It was a case that somehow involves eleven different states. In a giant conspiracy with the biggest cities in the United States all joining in. To somehow manufacture votes and change mail in ballots and somehow throw the election to joe biden. And i sat there dumbfounded. Because the story that was presented by mr. Giuliani bore no relationship to the actual complain in the case. And when youre in court, you have to talk about the complaint. You have to talk about your facts. You have to talk about the law. When youre at four seasons total landscaping you can talk about anything. There was no distinction. In what i heard today. I pointed that out strongly. To the court. Again the complaint it sounded like he gave a giuliani monologue about the nefarious actors stealing lt election. Independent from the legal claims. Am i right lt remedy is throw out all the votes in the county . And in philadelphia. Yeah. It was interesting. The remedy kept multiplying as he was talking. It started off that he was after 680,000 votes. By the time he finished his speech, i think we were up to 1 million votes. And counting. I guess. Its absurd on its face. In fact the whole presentation was absurd on its face. But i think what was telling was that when youre in a court and you have to sometimes explain yourself, you have to answer questions the judge asks. The judge pressed is this about fraud . And where is it pled that this is about fraud. And after he said no. This wasnt a complaint based on fraud. Instead it was based on a some kind of some kind of strange conspiracy. Idea. But what was telling was that his Opening Statement practically was he wanted to amend the complaint again. In other words they have amended this complaint once. And took out almost everything that they pled initially. All sorts of propositions fell out of the case. He said some of that was a mistake and wanted to put them back in. And amend the complaint again. It was the moving target. I quickly glance here. You strike me as an accomplished advocate yourself and the law is adversarial. In your line of work you are arguing all the time. Across from opposing counsel. Sometimes its heated sometimes it isnt. Just give us a sense of how anomalous what you saw today as someone who does this for a living. What was aanomalous he came in and argued some other case. I dont know where this case is. I dont know where its going to land. He said there will be more complaints and pleadings. He came in and argued some other case. And you dont usually see i dont see that presentation. And so to sit there and sort of listen to this, and then sort of redirect the attention to what the case is about. This case is actually about small ball things. Its complaints in the case about whether philadelphia could notify voters that had ballots that didnt have a signature. And the like. That these ballots were going to be not going to count. They were going to be rejected but you have an opportunity which exists in the Election Code to come in on election day, spoil or cancel a ballot. And vote in person. Its sort of like whats wrong with that . Why is that a problem . To let people know that they have a right to come in and vote in person. That doesnt just seem to be much of a problem. So, this kind of idea was dressed up with a lot of extraneous facts and broad based allegations that tried to take this issue into larger sense of conspiracy. Thats not right. Some of the things that he said really are deplorable. At one point he even used the word mafia about the philadelphia election workers. That were involved in this i dont know what he meant. He got over his skis. These are People Public employees. These are people who believe in democracy. And want to see elections run right. I represent them. Wont sit there and allow this broadside attack on people who are just doing their job. And without within a fact free presentation. A promise that if you only let me amend this again ill show you all sorts of facts. We have heard this a lot. And i just was not going to let that happen. This there is nothing that they have shown that theres fraud. Nothing that they have shown that theres a grand conspiracy here. It doesnt make sense. Nothing that they said actually makes sense. And the challenge when you hear that and i have been through a lot of cases. Is to not engage on that stuff but bring back to the Court Attention what this case is really about. And i think i was very happy with the fact that our side was able to do that. In federal court arguing in federal court today against Rudy Giuliani on behalf of the counties in pennsylvania. Thank you for making time. The pandemic just gets worse and worse how the cynical right wing politics are harming us all. About Treatment Options is key. Today, we are redefining how we do things. We find new ways of speaking, so youre never out of touch. Its seeing someones face that comforts us, no matter where. When those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care. The first steps of checking in, the smallest moments can end up being everything. Theres resources that can inform us, and that spark can make a difference. 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Its been painfully clear for donald trump and most of the Congressional Republican leadership that covid was primarily a political problem that had to be managed because of the election. Not a health problem. A political problem with eyes on november. One of the biggest give awas of the position is what they projected onto their political opponents. They couldnt believe that the steps that some governors and mayors were taking to combat the virus were drien by serious concerns that it was deadly and they suggested it was a conspiracy to politically knee donald trump. If it ends up that biden wins in november. I hope he doesnt. If he does, i guarantee you the week after the election suddenly all those democratic governors all the democratic mayors will say, everything is magically better. Go to work and school. The problems are solved. You wont have to wait for biden to be sworn in. A ted cruz guarantee. All the democratic governors and mayors will say the problem is solved. No more covid restrictions. It was all to hurt trump. Guess what the election is over. Whats happening is the opposite. Of his guarantee. In fact democratic governors of michigan and oregon who impose restrictions early in the pandemic have imposed new restrictions. In spikes in their state. Republicans who are abandoning their preelection positions, they are the ones doing that. And embracing Public Health measures chts governor of utah and north dakota are changing their tune. They are embracing masks of resistance and Iowa Republican governor who vowed in iowa. I will not mandate masks. I trust iowa. Giving a high five in a crowded maskless room. She didnt object to Trump Holding a superspreading rally. She was spotted in the crowd not wearing a mask. Now guess what, iowa hospitals are full across the state. Theres barely an icu bed to be found. If you get covid tomorrow, tough luck. Its a nightmare. Last night she wants disparaged mask. She issued a statewide mask mandate along with restrictions. Good thing too. Much too late. But its the opposite of what cruz said would happen. Who is playing politics do you think . Hospitals fill up. There are still republicans who are treating the pandemic with the same recklessness and denial. Well talk to senator brown attacked by a republican after asking him to put on a mask. Right after this. Do you have questions about Medicare Options for next years coverage . Of course you do. We all do. Im Meredith Vieira and im in the same camp. The medicare annual election deadline is just ahead and now is our chance to check out whats changed. I want to talk to you about myhealthpolicy, a great resource if youre new to medicare or if youre already covered. Are there any new Medicare Advantage plans . Im feeling overwhelmed. Yes, go to myhealthpolicy. Com to review the various options, for example, 0 premium plans. Keep in mind there are changes every year, so its really important to be aware of whats different now. I have Medicare Advantage now. Can i switch to another plan . Yes, compare. If you find coverage you like better, you can switch plans easily. For instance, maybe you want Prescription Drug coverage or an expanded network. Nows your chance to change. All these Medicare Options are too confusing. Can i talk to a real person . Yes, talk with a licensed Insurance Agent on the phone or meet facetoface with someone in your community. We all want to feel confident were making the right choices about our medicare coverage, so dont be afraid to ask questions to get the answers you need. Start here, at myhealthpolicy. Com. soft music id start by asking the presiding officer to wear a mask. As he speaks and people below him are kant tell you what to do. I dont wear a mask when im speaking like most senators. I dont need your instruction. There clearly isnt much interest in this body in Public Health. The public hasnt shown up in the Coronavirus Task force meeting in mornts. A majority leader calls us to vote on an unqualified mom knee. At the same time voting judge after judge. The people in front of you and the presiding officer and expose the staff here. And the majority leader doesnt seem to care. Senator Brown Exchange with the republican senator of alaska. Maybe you have heard. Theres a will the of covid going around the halls of the congress. Probably best to take precautions as the senator asked for. Theres resistance. As you saw from the senator from alaska. And senator brown of ohio joins me now. I think today i have read a four or five members of congress who tested positive. Chuck grassly who you served with for years. Has tested positive. And were wishing him well. I cant help but think theres for all of the things that happened. I dont know if its a psychology of you people in elected office and think youre immortal. And cant be hurt or what it is. It doesnt feel like its sunk in there. It hasnt. First of all theres no they dont care about the essential workers that work in the senate. Or the house. Or local Grocery Store or bus driver. Or the person that changes linen in hospitals. They are not generally paid as much. They are senate staff is they dont seem to care. Ted cruz weighed in. And said theres nobody within 50 feet of a senator speaking. Actually there is a stenographer about six feet away. And senators dont wear a mask when they speak. Theres risk involved. Why do that. Republican colleagues made a political statement of masks. Something history will not understand of the era. Senator cruzs tweet it was a sort of virtue performance by you. And there was no one there. As you point out, there was a stenographer right underneath on the day. Theres a bunch of staffers there. What is the status of things in the senate . Your point is the country is on fire. What are we doing here . Mcconnell calls us back only to vote on a party hack. That most republicans voted for we defeated her today. Shell probably be back for the Federal Reserve. A trump ster that mcconnell does whatever trump tells him and spineless republicans almost all of them do whatever mcconnell tells them. We vote on judges. Were called back putting dozens of staff people at risk. And each other. No sympathy for us. For the public. Im fine with that. Were not doing what we ought to do. We ought to bring back the 600 a week unemployment. Put dollars into public education. And Public Health. In local government. We should vote support for emergency rental assistance. People are having water and electricity shut off in a pandemic. As winter approaches. We should be helping small businesses. Instead mcconnell calls us back putting staff at risk and so many others in this city at risk that dont need to be. Because the senate is not doing its job. You mention the vote for the fed board nominee. I want to take a moment. We have covered that on the show. About how this was in my view and an effort to salt the fields in retreat. Put a person on a Federal Reserve board with wildly crankish and unsound views on monetary policy. Thats not even like that much of a crazy opinion of mine. She believes in the Gold Standard and crazy views. And she was defeated. It was a victory for sanity to keep hr off the Federal Reserve board. How did that come about. She was defeated by one vote. Two republicans joined every democrat. Three republicans were absent. Two of them i believe because of covid. One because a senators wife is sick. So the three absences and two negative votes by republicans joined by 47 democrats. All of us. Senator harris came back and voted. One of the last votes in opposition. We defeated her. I know that mcconnell lives for moments like this. He wants to put somebody on a board many of the fed terms are 14 years. This is shorter. Because its filling an expired term. He wants to seed the earth with as many people he can put in. That trump wants that will cause mischief for joe biden. Its not patriotism. But its what mcconnell does to show to give power more power to the already powerful and more wealth to the wealthy. That was what mcconnell is and trump is. Thats essentially why trump was defeated. Incompetence and the virus. And his always siding with the rich and powerful people in the country. At every fork in the road. A final question about the virus. And where things are. You represent ohio. The governor was quite aggressive in the beginning. Hes now come under the been targeted by the president for a challenge. He had the to suggest joe biden won the election. I wonder its bad in the midwest. Cases are rising around ohio. If your experience the people that you represent in the state that is divided, is more unified in how people feel about the virus is is there two different universes you talk to when you talk about the wave of the virus. I think there are two different universes. Of varying size in every state. Republican Party Position is reject masks, protect our freedom. I guess we stop at stop signs and wear seat belts. But not wear mask. That division is everywhere. Unfortunately how it is beginning to show up and our hospitals and my state and else where will. Is that many healthcare workers are coming down with covid. Contracting it because its so widespread. Thats the crisis upon us. President trump is not attended a Coronavirus Task force meeting in months. He never mentions it. He does nothing about it. Its getting worse and president elect biden is trying to address it. Hes listening to the science. So are we in the senate. Mcconnell doesnt want to do anything about the virus. Or anything about the economy. So the country continues to drift in the wrong direction. Its the biggest tragedy of our times. I could not agree more. Senator of ohio. Thank you so much for coming out. Next a heartbreaking look at the bargain republicans made to keep the economy open at the expense of the most vulnerable among us. One womans firsthand account of the fall out. Ut Heart Failure causes nearly two hospitalizations every minute. Understanding how to talk to your doctor about Treatment Options is key. Today, we are redefining how we do things. We find new ways of speaking, so youre never out of touch. Its seeing someones face that comforts us, no matter where. When those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care. The first steps of checking in, the smallest moments can end up being everything. Theres resources that can inform us, and that spark can make a difference. When we use it to improve things, then that change can last within us. When we understand whats possible, we wont settle for less. The best thing we can be is striving to be at our best. Managing Heart Failure starts now with understanding. Call today or go online to understandheartfailure. Com for a free Heart Failure handbook. Do you have a Life Insurance policy you no longer need . Now you can sell your policy, even a term policy, for an immediate cash payment. Call Coventry Direct to learn more. We thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. But we quickly realized that we needed a way to supplement our income. Our friends sold their policy to help pay for their medical bills and that got me thinking. Maybe selling our policy could help with our retirement. Im skeptical, so i did some research and called Coventry Direct. They explained Life Insurance is a valuable asset that can be sold. We learned that we can sell all of our policy or keep part of it with no future payments, who knew . We sold our policy. Now we can relax and enjoy our retirement as we had planned. If you have one hundred thousand dollars or more of Life Insurance you may qualify to sell your policy. Dont cancel or let your policy lapse without finding out what its worth. Visit conventrydirect. Com to find out if you policy qualifies. Or call the number on your screen. Coventry direct, redefining insurance. No one reached out to me and said as a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the america that all america loves for your children and grandchildren . And if thats the exchange, im all in. My message is that lets get back to work. Lets get back to living. Lets be smart about it. And those of us who are 70plus, well take care of ourselves. But dont sacrifice the country. Lieutenant governor of texas dan patrick offered himself as a kind of human sacrifice back in march. The problem of course is that the policies that have been implemented thinking along those lines have sacrificed tens of thousands of people that are not dan patrick. That decision was made for them. My next guest wrote a remarkably touching piece called covid took my grandfather, but it wasnt what killed him. She remembered that moment when governor dan patrick suggested the elderly should be willing to die. To save the economy. When patrick said the elderly should be willing to take a chance on their own survival he wasnt referring to himself. With economic privilege and topnotch medical care. He was really talking about my grandfather. Sara jones, Senior Writer at new York Magazine joins me now. Its a fantastic piece of writing. Im really sorry for the loss of your grandfather. Maybe you can tell us about your grandfather, what he was like, where he was from. Yeah, his name was charley. He was from maine originally. He moved to western virginia to be closer to my family. He loved fishing. He was a Devout Church goer. Even though he hadnt been doing as well in the last year of his life, he still had life left in him. Maybe he could have seen my wedding, and unfortunately thats not possible anymore. Youre right about that feeling. One of the things that happens, i think, as we try to process whats happening in front of us, these numbers, and individual stories will focus on a 41yearold. Your grandfather was 86. He had had Health Problems beforehand. In the sort of actuarial sense people could look and say, well, he was pretty old. But he had to die under pretty terrible conditions, as you describe in your piece, because of covid. It was a terrible death. I mean, its been a terrible death for everyone, of course, not just for my grandfather. But its an awful inhumane way to die. I mean, we did get to see him under very safe supervised conditions a few days before he passed. But when the moment came, none of us were there. I mean, we couldnt even go see the body afterwards. Youre just completely denied any of the dignity or humanity that can and really should surround a persons passing from this world. And he didnt get that. Hundreds of thousands of people havent gotten that. Youre right about this, about him being in a part of the state thats fairly conservative, western virginia, and a place where people arent necessarily masking up a lot or observing social distancing. When i walked into kroger and saw all the middleaged men without masks on, i wanted to approach them, are you the one who killed my grandfather. Trump is a vessel trump is an apologist for older sins. What do you mean by that . Service to tempting when i would see people without masks in a public place taking such extreme risks when my grandfather is literally dying down the road and other people in the area were dying and Health Care Workers were risking their lives to at least make things easier for them. But i think its very easy to focus on the personal and individual responsibility angle and lose sight of the fact that were talking about systemic failures. Were talking about a president who is ultimately responsible for the way this pandemic has been handled and has encouraged reckless behavior and hasnt passed reasonable appropriate Public Health measures. Its a problem thats bigger than a few individuals not wearing masks. I think its important because we end up to the private zags of the response that has happened, personal responsibility that everyone has to do their part. And thats an important part of any Public Health messaging. But theres such a policy failure that has pushed down on everyones shoulders so we feel like were the ones who have to carry this in this leaderless fashion. Right. These are political deaths. You know, its a pandemic. Some people, of course, you know, its a deadly pandemic. But these are political deaths because they could have been many of them could have been prevented. And they happened because of political decisions. And i dont want to lose sight of that as infuriating as it might be for me personally to see somebody maybe not being as safe as they could. My grandfather was one person out of hundreds of thousands of people who are victims of our political economy and of this president. And thats the real problem. Are you i have to say that i am surprising and pretty horrified and shocked by what it turns out or what appears to be our tolerance for this. I got it wrong. I thought it would be lower, honestly, than it is proving to be. There were 1,500 americans we lost today. There will be more tomorrow. There will be maybe twice that in two weeks. Were you surprised . You know, a little bit. Az journalist, i try to put myself in other peoples head spaces not to agree but to understand. And i find it not just difficult. I find it impossible. I dont understand it sounds so trite, but i dont understand why you dont care about other people. Why you can look at this amount of death and thats something thats acceptable and tolerable to anyone and just approach it with this sort of fatalism like oh, well, this is just how it is. Its a pandemic. We cant do anything about it. I you know, it did surprise me. When these comments like the comment by dan patrick that you cited first started coming out and then i started hearing similar comments from other conservatives, from writers, from politicians, it worried me a great deal that i had, in fact, underestimated our tolerance for sacrificing large portions of the population. And, you know, even with the election turning out the way it did, thats something thats not just going to disappear. That tendency, whatever it is is going to be with us for a long time. Sara jones, you wrote a really exceptional piece of writing. Im so sorry for your loss. Please extend our condolences to your mom as well. Thank you. That is all in on this tuesday night. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now with ali velshi in for rachel. Good evening. Rachel is still quarantining after a close contact tested positive for covid19. The rach ali velshi. Good evening, chris. Rachel is still quarantining after a close contact tested positive for covid19. She is fine and she will be back as soon as possible. Were going to start with news thats just broken in the last couple of hours, but i want to give you context here. First, as you know, President Trump has so far spent his lame duck period doing three things, tweeting, golfing and firing people. The most high profile firings have been at the pentagon where the president has installed loyalists in several top jobs in the days since he lost the election. But last week we noted on this show that the president appeared to have started cleaning out the governments top Cyber Security officials
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