White house official who listened to call visibly shaken and what new evidence of growing support for the impeachment inquiry means for democrats. We are dedetermined to find the answers. All that and what happened at the Supreme Court today when the Trump Administration argued that employers can discriminate against lgbt workers. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Well, here we are. The white house is now openingly defying Congress Power to investigate the president for high crimes and misdemeanors. Just tonight white House Counsel cept an unhinged eight page letter to nancy pelosi and the Democratic House chairs investigating trump. It accuses them of violating the constitution and rule of law by depriving trump of his rights during a trial. Even though, to be clear, an impeachment trial is not whats happening. It wouldnt take place until much later in the senate. And thats not how any of this works. The letter asserts, quote, President Trump cannot permit his administration to participate in this partisan inquiry under these circumstances. Of course, participation isnt really optional. The constitution is pretty plain on this, the house of representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment and this is the latest assertions he is fundamentally above the law. The state department ordered a key witness, a trump appointee in the growing ukraine scandal not to appear before congress and theres good reason to believe that witness is at the center of the entire scandal. Theres evidence President Trump corruptly coercing an occupied country to manufacture dirt on his political opponent. So congressional investigators dont really need anything else, but theres good reason to believe the Trump White House is still hiding a lot, and the key to what theyre hiding is a man that they would not let testify today, his name is Gordon Sondland and hes the American Ambassador to the European Union and he has a close relationship with President Trump. In 2017 he gave a Million Dollars to trumps nugeration committee anonymously, and it appears he got his job as a kind of thank you note. Sondland boasted in an interview earlier this year he was running a Foreign Policy to ukraine even though there was no reason whatsoever for him to be running point on ukraine. President trump has not only honored my with the job of being the u. S. Ambassador to the eu, but hes also given me other special assignments including ukraine as i mentioned previously. We have the three amygoes and they are secretary perry, again ambassador volker and myself. And weve been tasked with sort of overseeing the ukraine, u. S. Relationship. Again, hes the u. S. Ambassador to the eu. The ukraine is not in the eu. Nbc news reports, quote, sondland is part of a small cadre of ambassadors. The two speak frequently by phone, have spoken extensively about ukraine in the past, so sondland, a friend to the president ends up running point on ukraine after we should note they removed a career ambassador who had the job of ambassador to ukraine. Parnl she was removed because she was an obstacle to the coercion play that Rudy Giuliani and the president were cooking up. Now the washington reports that when others in the Trump Administration tried to block sondlands naked power grab, quote, he rebuffed their demands to know who granted him such authority with two words, the president. Remember the chain of events, and he was the one texting with Career Foreign Service officer bill taylor in those texts that were released. Remember taylor said to Gordon Sondland, quote, i think its crazy to with hold Security Assistance for help with a political campaign. And what we know is that Gordon Sondland waited five hours to respond. Multiple news outlets are now reporting during that period of time he talked to trump presumably to come up with a cover story before he responded in writing to the Career Foreign Service guy calling him out for quid pro quo. And five hours later with a hilarious worded up text, quote, the president has been Crystal Clear no quid pro quos of any kind. He ends, quote, i suggest we stop the back and forth by text. What we also know is that esondland had already described what was happening to republican senator ron johnson as a quid pro quo. Gordon sondland knew what was happening. He knew what he was tasked with doing. He was the president s guy implementing the president s policy of corruptly coercing a foreign power and that policy in crew crane was to dig up dirt on the president s political inquiries. Remember that lawyered up text. Quote, the president has been crystal kier, no quid pro quos of any kind and he said that to Career Foreign Service knowing full well that investigators some way was going to read it. Now just today the president cited that very same text that sondland presumably cooked up with the president as an albi. I believe you are incorrect about President Trumps intentions, the president has been Crystal Clear, no quid pro quos of any kind. That says it all. First of all, it was not a tweet. It was a text message. But heres the other thing about Gordon Sondland, Gordon Sondland buzz planning to cooperate. Gordon sondland flew in from brussels. He turned over Text Messages from his personal device which i should note included texts using the crypted messages from whatapp. Theyre willing to risk looking like theyre engaged in an active cover up just to not let this guy tell what he knows under oath. And based on that, you our viewer, can draw your conclusions about what it is he does know. Its worth noting there are already several smoking guns. The notes from trumps call with the president of ukraine, the call where trump responded by saying, quote, i would like you to do us a favor, though, and that was after trump had just complained about the relationship between the countries saying, quote, the United States has been very, very good to ukraine. I would not say that its reciprocal necessarily. Every day brings us new reporting about the scope and also crucially about how freaked out people at the white house were. The people close to the call and close to the policy. Fox news, yes, that fox news first reported that the whistleblower who tipped off congress to the scandal wrote a different memo a day after trumps call with the president. A day after that memo the white house official who heard the entirety of the phone call described it as crazy, frightening and completely lack in substance related to National Security. The New York Times added to that according to the memo the white house official was visibly shaken by what had transpired. In the officials view the president had clearly committed a criminal act by urging a foreign power to investigate a u. S. Person for the purpose of advancing his own reelection bid in 2020. A criminal acts, thats a white house official. People in the white house saw that it wasnt a perfect phone call. In fact, it was so far from perfect that a slew of people who had heard it were worried immediately that the law had been broken. Here with me now one of the Washington Post reporters whos written about the relationship with ukraine greg miller whos also the author of the apprentice, trump, russia and the subversion of american democracy. What have we learned to how central sondland was to this entire affair . Good he shows up over and over to this crinology as you just laid out. He is basically really trying to impress the president. He donates a Million Dollars as you noted through hidden channel tuesday the inaugural committee so that he can get a position like this in government. And then as people in the white house told us even though hes ambassador to the eu, he is shuttling back to washington with such frequency seeking face time with the president they started joking hes more ambassador to the west wing than to brussels. And i mean in his own words, right, in his own texts he is placing himself in charge of this relationship with ukraine, pursuing this transaction that the president wanted. And i think probably being the most energetic person outside of donald trump and Rudy Giuliani in the pursuit of that objective. Theres two moments where we know that Gordon Sondland talk tuesday the president. Once by his own admission and once by reporting. The other is right before he responds to that incredibly, you know, whistle blowing text that what youre doing is quid pro quo basically in effect with that very lawyered up text. That suggests to me he and trump are coordinating at some point. Yeah, and you would think in that sort of position if you were watching the events in this white house for the past couple of years you might be inclined to consult with somebody besides donald trump if youre trying to cover tracks on Something Like this. You know, it just sort of backfires in a very big way. He does have a close relationship with the president. Its something he worked to develop and in this case hes interacting with am president at very crucial moments in that time line. What happened today . It seems this took the house investigative committees by surprise. It took House Republicans carg to reporting by surprise. What happened today . You know, its hard to say. I mean we had ambassador volker who was also on those text exchanges to be the first in line to meet with the Committee Last week and to get his testimony but he quit his government job to do that. And we saw markers laid down by the Trump Administration last week, in particular secretary of state pompeo basically saying indicating very clearly there would not be cooperation with this inquiry. And so im not sure why it was such a surprise that sondland was blocked from testifying today. I think it would have been to some people more surprising if he had been allowed to proceed. Although we should note i think he could fly back from brussels. There wasnt anticipation among some at least including mr. Sondland that he was sent he wouldnt have flown back otherwise. There was also an important distinction between his testimony and ambassador volkers in that volker brought all his messages with him. Sondland didnt do that. Sondland turns them over to state. And so those are things the committee desperately wants to get at as well and it will now have to fight for. In that white house today it suggests its going to be a and theres a bunch of evidence about them. Thank you very much. Id like to matt miller, an msnbc justice and National Security analyst and former National Security advisor and representative to the united nations. When i first started to see this story i thought to myself i must be missing something. Why is the ambassador to eu the one in the middle of this . Ukraines not in the eu but the more im learning the more it seems it had nothing to do with his port foal you. Is this a strange setup . Its very strange. Ambassador sondland was new to the game, got sucked in to the awe of being in the trumps orbit. The president has got the authority to tell him to do whatever he wants and the president chose to have him take over the ukraine portfolio because he would do what he wanted the fact he didnt testify today frankly was not a surprise to me. I was stunned they got as far to the end before they pulled the plug, and its important to see the real stories. We have it Text Messages, the president s admission. And investigate a theory about emails and to investigate biden but we know that and thats enough to move forward on an impeachment effort. But theyre also trying to figure out what else happened. Is their testimony peag used to have youll yawny and all these others lawyer flying around, who held up the aid, and i also think the three amygoes we hear about earlier on in the show, theyre going to have to lawyer up and ultimately there will be casualties in this administration and rick perry is on his way out the door and v e volker has already resigned. And everyone caught in this web is eventually going to have to lawyer up and the president doesnt care, hell find someone else to do the bidding. But the truth will come out. What the president doesnt understand is that congress is a coequal branch of gernment and he can delay and execute an attack, but ultimately this is not like running his business. Its a coequal branch of government and hes going to lose this fight. Do you believe the truth will come out . I think it will mostly come out. I dont think its going to come out through the subpoena process or the house are requesting documents. I think the white house has made the decision that if the political costs from obstructing this investigation, the political cost of executing coverup is lower than the cost of turning over information. We should say that one news cycle of one guy that goes in kirk volker and its massively incriminating. You geteds of quid pro quo and if you want the meeting of the president you need to open these investigations. So i think the white house is i think, you know, greg miller was right. If a week ago the white house had said therapy going to let sondland testify and the thing surprising is the way it happened today because as you noted he flew to the United States, hired a private attorney and been prepping for testimony. And the fact the white house pulled his testimony at the last minute tells me they said a problem. Either he was going to have to talk about his conversations with the president and those were incriminating or the conversations with giuliani or Mick Mulvaney and i think the white house is going to make that decision over and over again. And whats going to happen the truth if it comes out will come out because of whistle blowers or people like kirk volker who decide that my career and my ongoing viability, my ability to work again in washington or professional life is more important to me than going down with the ship at the white house. Ambassador . I think its important for the press, the congress, those who care about the National Security over our country also to push away this moat that the president keeps throwing up about whats happening and look at whats really happening. We know what happened in ukraine. We dont really need a lot of investigation on that. My guess is it had less to do what sondland had to say and more about this letter. Look at whats happening in the rest of the world. We have this crisis with the kurds where we learn today the president on his own decision invited president erdogan on the verge and perhaps after he slaughtered kurds who were our allies and helped us defeat isis in syria, constantly you have one man just making his own decisions without involving his core National Security team, and thats what happened in ukraine, and thats why sondland was protinto this. He doesnt want to work within the system. You had the attorney state where senator johnson on a talk show says he doesnt trust our own fbi and cia. If theres something there, those are the professionals that should be investigating this, and its just going to be a crisis of chaos. Its not going to end well for any of the parties participating in that. Finally, matt, do you think all these people are going to ultimately have to lawyer up . Without a doubt. Some of them they obviously have access to attorneys provided to them by the administration. But i think ultimately this was the decision i was talk about a minute ago, if youre someone whos been subpoenaed by the house and seen yourself implicated through leaks to the media eventually you have to decide am i going to take advice from lawyers of it state department, the Justice Department or am i going to get my own attorney who has my interest at heart . I was in that position and the lawyers i have been through that in some of the 19 6 and investigations. The lawyers and the government advise you to hire your own lawyer because everyone one of these are going to have to hire their own lawyer. Thank you for sharing your time. Next, the Trump Administration argues they are basically above the law and in the process makes a case so flat out bananas that even the judge needed to take a beat. What they said in two minutes. What they said in two minutes. Hi. Maria ramirez mom maria Maria Ramirez. Mcdonalds is committing 150 Million Dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs. Prof Maria Ramirez mom and dad Maria Ramirez to help more employees achieve their dreams. Of all the days for Donald Trumps department of justice to walk into court and basically argue tat the watergate coverup should have been allowed to happen, today was the day they chose to do that. The very same day that the white house notified the house that the Trump Administration will not participate and democrats quoteunquote illegitimate impeachment probe. The doj was fighting over the grand jury material, remember thats a bunch of stuff that was redacted ipthe Mueller Report along with additional materials present would the grand jury. And what the doj argued for today made the judge sitting in the courtroom do a double take. Heres what happened, House Democrats said that the grand jury materials from the report should be handed over to congress in the same way they were in 1974 during watergate. Now, one argument the doj could make in response to that is just to say these are different situations. That is not the argument they made. The argument that William Barrs Justice Department made instead was effectively that the courts got it wrong in 1974 that the watergate materials should have been allowed to stay out of the hands of congress. And who knows how history would have turned out. The ap made that argument, quote, briefly left judge howell in silence. Quote, wow, okay. As i said the department is taking extraordinary position in this case. And it is just yet another example of judges being genuinely shocked pie arguments this administration is making in court. Arguments they are basically completely above the law. Im joined now by the former acting general, neal, did you have the okay, wow response to the dajs argument . I think it was way past that. Honestly, chris, when i teach constitutional law we use this nixon oral argument in 1974 as an example of a preposterous legal argument. Its up there with stuff like that. And to have our Justice Department lawyers say hes trying to reinveig vigorate and that decision from 1974 is wrong is just so laughable, its a constitutional monstrosity and i think youre right to put that in with the other things we just learned thin last 24 hours, that they wont cooperate at all with the impeachment inquiry as a illegitimate and all this not letting ambassador sondland testify and the like. And altogether i know theres a lot of stuff about russia and mueller and ukraine and sondland and this and that. But at bottom this is all just one simple impeachable offense. Its called rub instruction of justice. Its not turning over material to congress, and pointedly its both article 1 and article 3 of the nixon impeachment. Thats exactly what it was about. And indeed when clinton was being impeached there was a guy named Lindsey Graham who took to the floor of the house and this is on my twitter now and said that is an impeachable offense. If you dont turn over material to congress, and thats what happened today. Lindsey graham basically making the argument that nixon kind of signed his own political death when he refused to hand documents over to congress. Take a listen. Article 3 of impeachment against Richard Nixon, the article was based on the idea that Richard Nixon as president failed to comply with subpoenas of congress. Congress was going through oversight function to preside oversight to the president. The day Richard Nixon is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from congress over the impeachment process away from congress, and he became the judge and jury. So speaking of became the judge and jury, writes this eight page letter today where he says its basically a political document so i dont think we should take it seriously as legal documentation but we have deemed everything as a illegitimate. Maybe politically it has some benefit but im not sure of that, but Lindsey Graham was right. Lindsey graham notifies the core kind of constitutional sin which is taking a coordinate branch of government charged with the most solemn branch of government impeachm and saying im not going to turn over impeachment and hes right about that. And so, you know, it does kind of further this truth which is i think trump wants to be impeached in a way. He doesnt have a domestic agenda, his Foreign Policy is in shambles as the current example shows. So this is on impeachment theres something to talk about and something for him to run against. But, you know, in this document, this eight page memo, i think it can only be explained as please impeach me because ive got nothing else going on. And theres also the fact i think it seems likely to me theyre making a calculation what would be further revealed if they furnish documents. One person testified for one day and turned over documents which are massively incriminating. It seems to me they decided were just going to stop doing that because its not going to be good. 100 agree. And matt miller just said this. Something must have happened in the prep sessions that made them think oh, my god hes not going to come in even though hes our Million Dollar man, hes not going to totally take our side and exonerate us. This is all against the backdrop of hugely incriminating evidence. You dont need this if youre a house prosecutor or trying this case. Theres so much damning evidence from the president s own people themselves. So its not like youve got to read the Mueller Report or Something Like that. Its all there in black and white the president sold out our Foreign Policy interests to benefit his campaign. Thank you for being with me tonight. Still ahead new polling shows an increasing number of americans supporting the impeachment inquiry. What that means for democrats leading the charge after this. What that means for democrats leading the charge after this. All around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on this melting pot of impacted species. Everywhere is going to get touched by climate change. Im off to college. Im worried about my parents retirement. Dont worry. Voya helps them to and through retirement. Dealing with todays expenses. While helping plan, invest and protect for the future. So theyll be okay . I think theyll be fine. Voya. Helping you to and through retirement. Despite the best efforts of donald trump and the white house polls are showing support of impeachment and the impeachment inquiry is growing. A startling 58 of americans say the house was correct in opening an impeachment inquiry. 49 say trump should be impeached and removed. And thats not just on the left. Nearly 30 of republicans support the impeachment inquiry as do 50 of independents. Plurality of the public showing repufbl from office, but even those numbers are moving in the wrong direction for trump. In the quinnipiac poll only 34 of respondents said they approved the way what does this all mean for the rapidly changing political calculations of both parties . Joining mow now to discuss dona edwards and rick wilson. Obviously the Political Considerations of this have hung over all the time its fundamentally a political process and its not weird or wrong for folks in the house to be thinking about the politics. Ive got to think that nancy pelosi, house leadership and front line are feeling some relief from the polling theyre seeing this week. Well, i think they are but i think it was really in my view very pretickitable that once the house leadership and in particular Speaker Pelosi put herself out there and explained to the American People what was going on and also obviously the ukraine story helped that tremendously, that people would begin to come onboard, and i think you can see that. And i think the stronger case that democrats make in a very sort of, you know, studied way, you know, not rushing into it, that the American People will come onboard even more. And so i think the politics get better for democrats. But its not going to be easy. The president , on the other hand, with his stonewalling as youve just described actually is going to make it harder for him because hes going to have to go out there and make the case to the American People he doesnt have anything to hide while hes hiding things. I saw someone make the point today that the reason republicans are trying to press nancy pelosi for a vote now is they think the politics of this will get worse the longer it goes. And the vote margin now, if they can lock in a vote impeachment inquiry now it would look good for them. What do you think of that in. A dead fish never smells better a week later. Its going to get worse and have more political consequences as time goes by. Thats why theyre rushing. These guys recognize also donald trump is the greatest advocate and argument for impeachment. He keeps doing things in broad daylight that are impeachable. They keep doing things to obstruct congress. They keep doing things to reveal the depths of his malfeasance on these foreign calls. And so none of the republicans right now bravely pounding their ches saying do it now, do it now really want it to happen at, but theyd rather try to tear the bandaid off sooner and pop this bubble of anticipation, and if democrats are smart which is always an open question when it comes to these hardball maneuverings, theyll delay this, stretch this. The reason these numbers are moving in the polling, and the numbers have moved with independents and soft republicans. Independents and soft republicans are moving towards impeach wa impeachment, towards investigation very quickly. I dont think theyre going to get their wish on this one especially because donald trump will keep making the case hes a president who will continue to obstruct justice and do things in office that should be justified as expulsion. I think theres lingering worry to democrats about when 2020 comes they want to run on the substen of agenda and drug prices and Affordable Health care and things like. And i get that. On the flip side the president s defenders, people sort of so so on the president , everyone hates the tweets, everyone hates the outburst except the hardest of base. But it strikes me this inquiry is bringing more of that out of donald trump than even more than normal. What do you think . I think it is. But heres where republicans go wrong. I mean the fact is they dont want a vote right now because many of their members will have to take that hard vote as well. And what im seeing is democrats doing the right thing. Dont let the executive branch call the rules for the legislative branch. I think thats really important here, and democrats need to stick to that. All right, final question to you, rick, here. The president s the one thing he want to get done this year and could possibly get done is the renegotiated nafta 2. 0. Richard neal, the chair of the ways and Means Committee which is being obstructed was in mexico to talk about this. Nancy pelosi is about bringing it to a vote for thanksgiving. Merits aside, am i crazy that Mitch Mcconnell wouldnt do that in a million years if the shoe were on the other foot . If the shoe were on the other foot Mitch Mcconnell would freeze that place like antarctica. The democrats are out of their minds if they think theyre going to accomplish anything beneficial bypassing a trade bill. The this a referendum on donald trump. Thank you both so much. Still ahead, the Trump Administration went before the Supreme Court arguing it is legal to fire workers for being lgbt. Coming up, and the desperate flailing to defend President Trump in tonights thing 1, thing 2, next. Dent trump in tonights thing 1, thing 2, next. engines rev the only thing better than horsepower. Is more horsepower. engines rev if we were for everyone, wed be for no one. With dodge power dollars, more power means more cash allowance. Purchase now and get 10 per horsepower. Thats 7,970 on the srt challenger hellcat redeye. With moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis or crohns, your plans can change in minutes. Your head wants to do one thing, but your gut says, not today. If your Current Treatment isnt working, ask your doctor about entyvio. Entyvio acts specifically in the gi tract to prevent an excess of white blood cells from entering and causing damaging inflammation. Entyvio has helped many patients achieve longterm relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. 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The accused had to be confronted by a witness willing to put their name before the charges and this was a name we relearned our friend josh marshal happens to pea an expert on the subject. He responded the salem witch trials allow the testimony of the spirits of the accused, you so crazy your making my phd irrelevant. Congressman matt gates stepped into the fray and hes gotten an Associates Degree in wracking himself. What we see is a Kangaroo Court and chairman schiff is acting like a malicious captain kangaroo. Mulish ascaptain kangaroo is thing 2 in 60 seconds. Kangaroos thing 2 in 60 seconds. Wanna go to the gym . Ahh, its too expensive. Actually, our Unitedhealthcare Medicare plans have renew active. A gym membership and more at no extra cost. No excuses now. Renew active. Only from Unitedhealthcare Medicare. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Today the shameless trump defenders caucus gathered in a dimly lit corner of the capitol and really laid it on thick for the boss man. When you have a speaker of the house who says we need to strike while the irons hot and chairman of the committee so biased against this president this whole thing is fairy tail. Adam schiff is misleading you. If they dont want to send ambassador sondland because this is a Kangaroo Court. This entire thing is a Kangaroo Court, a clown show. Chairman schiff is acting like a malicious captain kangaroo. And that moment there is why captain kangaroo is trending on twitter all day. It was the congressman from florida getting roasted because apparently he thinks the term Kangaroo Court came from beloved captain kangaroo Childrens Television show that ran from the 1950s to the 1980s. Even the comedy duo of democratic senator chris murphy and brian shots gathered in on the act. Hi, ill buy you lunch next week if you somehow work mulish askangaroo in your next floor speech. Senator responding i dont do quid pro quo, murph, call me. , e what if other kinds of plants captured it too . If these industrial plants had technology that captured carbon like trees we could help lower emissions. Carbon capture is Important Technology and experts agree. Thats why were working on ways to improve it. So plants. Can be a little more. Like plants. You get more than yourFree Shipping. Ir, you get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, ill take that. Wait honey, no. When you want it. You get a delivery experience you can always count on. You get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. You get fast and Free Shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. Thats what you get when youve got wayfair. So shop now the president today is desperately trying to spin his abject capitulation to turkish president erdogan on syria policy by announcing erdogan is now coming to d. C. , the white house. The United States would basically allow to push into syria, its still totally unclear what u. S. Policy is. Getting wildly mixed signals even as reuters reports a turkish aid to the president says the Turkish Military is about to cross it border into syria. Its also the case heres ivanka back in 2012 tweeting thanks to then Prime Minister erdogan for helping launch trump towers istanbul and trump himself admitted he had a conflict of interest when it came to turkey because of his interests there. I have a little bit of conflict of interest because i have a major, major building in istanbul. And its a tremendously successful job. Its called trump towers. To be clear the president has not divested from his business interests and continues to profit from them and continues to have a conflict. And to top it all off, heres what happened the last time erdogan came to the white house. His besuited thugs beat protesters in the streets just blocks away as erdogan got out of his car and watched the violence. By the way, those protesters, those are kurdish protesters, the same ethnic group erdogan is dead set on making sure do maki get a stronghold. The same group that erdogans military is now going to wage a Violent Campaign against. Even though the kurds fought alongside isis, trump is supporting erdogan instead, which tells you a lot about what kind of person and President Donald Trump is. Donald trump isn and clearer skin. Man 2 vo proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis. Woman 2 vo . With humira. Woman 3 vo humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. Its proven to help relieve pain, stop further irreversible joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. 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It is clearly against the law to fire someone because of their gender. Title vii of the Civil Rights Act made that illegal. You cant tell a High School History teacher he is fired because of a man or tell a female hospital administrator, thank you very much for your service, but we want a man in this job. Cant do it. Right now its an open question as to whether you can do that to gay, lesbian, and transfo folks. Today in oral arguments on behalf of gay, lesbian and others argued that protections against sex discrimination must logically protect discriminations from lbgt discrimination. And the Trump Department of justice saying that federal law says its completely fine to fire people because theyre gay, lesbian, or transgender. That federal law has nothing to say about it. Joining me to talk about what this means from the Supreme Court that is quite different from this one that legalized samesex marriage, on the team that presented oral arguments today. Its good to have you here. Thanks for having me, chris. Maybe start with, you represent one of the plaintiffs, amy stevens. Amy stevens was a valued employee. She worked for six years as a funeral director and an embalmer at a funeral home in michigan. After that time, amy realized, she could no longer hide who she was. She had known since she was a young girl that shes a woman and shely crafting a letter to her boss that she is, in fact, a transgender woman and she would be returning to work after vacation as her true self, amy. And after her boss received that boss, two weeks later was fired. The reason, because the person he believed to be a man, was in fact a transgender woman. The governments argument today is that thats fine. Whatever you think about it personally, that federal civil rights law and particularly protections against sex discrimination at work simply dont apply to amy or dont apply to folks that tell their bosses theyre gay andless be b and get fired for it. Thats exactly right. And the Trump Administrations position in this case is so shocking for a number of reasons. The first is that the federal government actually filed amys case under the obama administration. It was the federal government that filed this lawsuit on amys behalf. Now the Trump Administration switching sides and throwing amy under the bus so doj was filing the lawsuit on amys behalf, saying that the federal law doesnt allow you to do this, and then trump came in and switched the sides of the doj . Exactly. The doj and the equal Employment Commission agreed that title vii protects workers who are fired simply because theyre transgender. Now theyve switched sides, essentially making a series of arguments that did not work very well today. So their first argument is essentially, its fine if we fire transgender women, as long as we also fire transgender men. Somehow they said this is their equality the equality idea, like, you cant discriminate, but you can fire them all. Yes, exactly. Any kindergartner can tell you, two wrongs dont make a right. If you think about what it means to be transgender, its inherently based on the persons sex. The very definition of what it means to be transgender is someone whose gender identity is different than the sex they were assigned at birth. Its impossible to fire someone as being transgender without taking into account their sex. Theres a case in 1989, with Price Waterhouse cooper, which is a really interesting case, in which a female employee is told to femme it up. Like, basically, you should wear lipstick and skirts and like act more feminine or youll be fired. And she takes that all the way to the Supreme Court. What does the Supreme Court say about that back in 89 . In 89, youre sort of pant mining it up, but the actual words told to ann hopkins, she was told to walk more femininely, talk more femme lin, and take a course in charm school. Which is unthinkable that an employer would take that argument to court and say, what we did here is perfectly fine. And the employers argument in that case was, look, it wasnt the fact that ann hopkins was a woman, it was essentially that she was the wrong kind of woman. Its not her sex, its these other traits. And what the Supreme Court said in 1989 is that those traits go to the very heart about our expectations about what it is to be a woman. If we can be fired for not being the right kind of woman, then our protections against sex discrimination really are meaningless. What do you say to people that this is whats called a statutory interpretation case, because youre arguing over what the meaning of the federal law, title vii means. People say, look, im with you on this, but you should just pass legislative protection. Like, you can add into title vii, you can add gay, lesbian, and transgender into the law. Thats really the Trump Administrations second argument. And i think the answer there is, congress has already prohibited this form of discrimination. Because when you look at the words of the statute, because of such individuals sex, its impossible to describe what happened to amy without taking into account her sex. It makes no sense, otherwise. Exactly. And the Trump Administration is essentially trying to go outside the words of the statute and say, lets think about what congress was doing in 1964. And the response to that is, we dont try to Read Congress mind. We look at the Laws Congress actually passed and the words they used. Final question is, how big are the stakes for gay, lesbian, and transgender employers in this country . The stakes could got be higher. This goes to our very freedom to work, to support our families skpe and keep a roof over our head. One in four lbgtq workers have said theyve experienced discrimination in the last year. Youve made a very good case here. I wish i was the Supreme Court. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. We did an hourlong deep dive with a member of the same aclu legal team and a new as opposed to today. And dont forget, you west coast fans, come join us for a live recording of with pod monday, october 21st, in los angeles. If youre thinking, yeah, im down, but ill wait to buy tickets until its closer, that time is now. Theyre going fast, so get tickets to msnbc. Com withpodtour. That is all in for this evening. The Rachel Maddow starts now. That time is now is an excellent swag line if youre looking for something to put on a mug. That time is now is everything. Thats sort of our lives. On the chris hayes show show, that time is now on the Rachel Maddow show, its usually like, that time is 1917, in september. Anyway thank you, my friend. Much appreciated. Take care. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Speaking of history, the two independent special prosecutors who pursued the watergate scandal during the Nixon Administration were Archibald Cox and leon jaworski. Jaworski ended up getting appointed after president nixon initiated the socalled saturday night massacre, when he forced the firing of Archibald Cox. He had to fire his way through the upper echelons of the Justice Department, until hed find someone who would go ahead and fire Archibald Cox for him. I mean, ultimately, we know how all of that ended,
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