Chris Hayes discusses the days top news. Confused, one goal of mr. Giuliani was pretty evident. Ive been sitting here looking in the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime. Its not. Collusion is not a crime. I dont even know if thats a crime, colluding about russians. Okay. You start analyzing the crime, the hacking is the crime. That certainly is the origin of the the president didnt hack. Of course not. Thats the he didnt pay them for hacking. As you know, it has led the meeting with the russians. If you got the hacked information from the russians here at cnn and you played it would you be in jeopardy of going to jail . Of course not. Okay. The president didnt hack and he didnt pay for the hacking. So thats an interesting thing to say. That, though, you that see there, is an idea that trumps allies have trotted out before. It doesnt hold up to legal scrutiny at all, particularly when you consider that mueller has already charged more than a dozen russians with conspiring against the United States. The kind of conspiracy that could later be augmented with additional coconspirators, be they russian or be they
so theres this mixture of your nutty grandfather who might get loose and walk around the back yard late at night and youve got to pull him back in the house, and someone whos specifically trying to do something. Thats the thing. I cant tell. Im a little bit like is this a bit or not. The hitting the head theatrically. Where was i . Is that a bit or is that like i think hes very illinformed on the fact pattern. Yes. I dont think hes doing his own work. Or hes being lied to by his client. Or all of the above. It could be all of the above. What you have is hes a sort of Whirling Dervish in the midst of this and what hes doing along the way is hes trying to smear peoples reputation. On cnn this morning he accused mueller of having Business Conflicts with trump. He went after andrew weissman, one of the staff prosecutors on muellers team, saying that he was a scoundrel. Called him a scoundrel. Without offering any proof. Its pure mccarthyite kind of tactics. I think anybody in Law Enforcement or politics whos watched rudys career is seeing someone devolve into a fairly
hateful operator whos throwing a smokescreen around this whole investigation in the service of President Trump. Is there also it seems to me also theres maybe this attempt to try to like take away its like lets say youre being blackmailed by someone, right . And you just decide im going to tell the world what theyre blackmailing me about bays take away all your leverage. I wonder if were seeing some strategy where rudy just tries to tell everyone what Michael Cohen might know. You see what im saying . So Michael Cohen doesnt have any leverage on him. You are speaking the same kind of truth that people in Michael Cohens world have been saying for the past two weeks, that theyre trying to take cards systematically, one by one, out of his deck to prevent at the very best to prevent Michael Cohen from controlling the narrative around whats on each of those various cards. Whether or not that makes him less likely to cooperate, less likely to be able to cut a deal, or just less likely to control what is said and how its spun. It is sort of an effective pr strategy. I dont know that its working
meeting at trump tower. It brings you back to the president inviting the russians to hack hillarys email. He doesnt have to pay for the hackers. He doesnt have to sit with them at the computers. If he creates an environment in which hes facilitating the crime, thats aiding and abetting. The irony here is giuliani made his bones, right . Became famous by prosecuting the mob. Mob cases are rico case. Theyre conspiracy case. The whole thing is like talking to someone isnt a crime. But if you talk to them to tell them to do something in furtherance of a conspiracy then you might be criminally liable. Right . Conspiracy is whats at the center here. If you lead that document which is why he used rico to go after the mob. Thats right. He used a Conspiracy Charge to take the mob down. And he relied on the testimony of made members of the mob, all of whom had their own agendas, like everyone in this case. Thats a great point. Like sammy the bull gravano. While the former u. S. Attorney for the southern districts going around calling andrew weissman, a federal prosecutor, a scoundrel. A man who has an impeccable
career and impeccable credentials. Emily jane fox and tim obrien, thank you both. For more on the pr and legal strategy, if you can call it that, of the president and his attorney lets turn to legal analyst ben wittes, National Security contributor matt miller, former Chief Spokesperson for the justice department. I want to play this sound for and you get your response to it, ben. Him talking about sort of the call that went that don jr. Made after he sort of has the exchange about setting up the meeting he calls a blocked number, House Intelligence Committee famously refused to find out what that number is. Listen to what he says about that. The meeting with the russians, how can you be sure that the president didnt know beforehand . Youre saying it was just a he said nobody can be sure of anything. But the one who came in and allegedly told the president about it was donald, which donald denies, the president denies and theres no corroboration of. And cohen has never said this at
any time up until now. When don don jr. Made as you know that day before the meeting and i think after calls to a blocked number. Was that the president . Heres my question for you, ben. How important is it that clients share all the information with their lawyers . And do you think that is happening here . Well, so one question is whether its happening and the other question is whether the lawyer can have confidence that its happening, whether or not it is. And i think the answer to the second question is clearly not. Nobody who interacts with donald trump can possibly be confident that theyve been given all the relevant information or that theyve been told the truth. When you are particularly if youre a lawyer whos going out on television and Making Representations On Behalf of a client, if youre a remotely responsible lawyer, which here is a condition contrary to fact,
you would want to know everything that could, you know, possibly rise up and bite you in the butt. Giuliani does not seem encumbered by that concern at all. And in addition to the fact that he probably doesnt have full information from his client or at least he cant rely on the fact he does, he also appears to be making up facts as convenient to himself or at least getting very confused about them. And so i think theres a Compounding Effect where the client is not being a good client and the lawyer is not being a good lawyer. And theres also, matt, theres been a pattern about the trump tower meeting more than almost any single instance in this story of these disclosures that are just enough to get through the day. Its like the emails come out and oh, yeah, it was about, you
know it was about adoption. Then it wasnt about adoption. Well, okay, they said heres dirt on Hillary Clinton. Well, then we actually did talk about it after. So this seems to be part of the pattern, where every time you keep pushing on this one meeting you get more disclosure. Yeah, thats right. And its not the only case theyve done that. Its been true about the relationship with Stormy Daniels where they had one story first and they came out with another one. I think it kind of goes to this question two things. One is you talked about the importance of telling your lawyer everything. One of the reasons in a situation like this where your lawyers going to come out publicly and talk su set the goalposts in the right place and you dont set the goalpost first my client never did this only to later move the goalpost to, well, yes, he did it but its not actually illegal after all, which is what we see them doing. In some ways youre right in your analysis at the beginning theyre trying to move the goalposts. But i think in some ways theyre bringing him back not just to the first letter they sent to Special Counsel but what donald trump said at the very beginning
if you go back to 2016 at the Famous Press Conference where he said russia, if you can get Hillary Clintons emails i think youll be greatly rewarded. Katy tur pushed him on it right then if it was appropriate to encourage a Foreign Government to commit a crime. He told her yes, absolutely, and asked her to be quiet. So i think what youre seeing now is kind of the legal strategy, for lack of a better option, getting back to where Donald Trumps take on this has been ever since the beginning. What do you make of the collusion is not a crime line, ben . Its a very silly line. Of Course Collusion is not a crime. But when you collude with some foreign intelligence entity there are many crimes you can commit along the way. And so the question has never been whether collusion is a crime. The question is whether first of all, whether some form of improper collusion took place and secondly, if it did, whether it would violate any of a number
of different laws. By the way, death is not a crime either. That doesnt mean murder isnt. Well said. Matt, i dont know what to make of this idea of a meeting on the 7th in preparation. The president s lawyer seems to be sort of floating as a possibility. If it were to be the case that such a lawyer took place such a meeting took place, it would strike me as completely destroying the idea this is a seat of the pants ad hoc freewheeling, freelancing thing don jr. Undertook. Yeah, if you believe that idea anyways. There arent a lot of freewheeling seat of the Pants Meetings like this that involve the campaign manager, the candidates son, the candidates soninlaw. So i think that ideas always been pretty silly they put out there and this would just completely destroy it. And i think if you the clip that you played before of the president on the day that this premeeting would have happened if it did happen coming out and promising a big revelation about Hillary Clinton next monday. In the immediate sentence after that he actually talked one of the things that he says about Hillary Clinton is hes going
to is he attacks her for her dealings in russia at the state department. So it was the exact same thing that don jr. Had been promised in the email he got from the publicist rod goldstone, which were her dealings in russia. You have to believe in a lot of coincidences to think that they were promised that in an email and then the president came out and talked about it publicly. And then of course never gave the speech because maybe they had the meeting they didnt get what they wanted. And theres 20 times at least they said oh no, he didnt know about it ahead of time and Rudy Giuliani still saying that now although he may change his tune tomorrow. Or tonight. Ben wittes and matt miller, thank you both. Cheers. Coming up the first trial in relation to the Mueller Probe set to begin tomorrow morning. Federal court. The charges against former Trump Campaign chair Paul Manafort. What to expect from that trial in two minutes. Use the chase mobile app® to pay practically anyone, at any bank . All while creating a masterpiece made of tea leaves . Yes. But this isnt for just anyone. Hong yi its for the strongest man in her life. Life. Lived reds way. Chase. Make more of whats yours. Its these new freshfx car Air Fresheners from armor all. Each scent can create a different mood in my car. Like tranquil skies. Armor all, its easy to smell good. Where were changing withs . Contemporary makeovers. Then, use the ultimate power handshake, the upper hander with a double palm grab. Who has the upper hand now . Start winning today. Book now at lq. Com. Starts with Jury Selection tomorrow. The charges include bank and tax fraud based on more than 60 million. Prosecutors say manafort earned as a consultant for a russiafriendly ukrainian political party. Which he apparently spent on everything from multimilliondollar properties to luxury cars and even a 21,000 watch. This trials expected to last about three weeks, but manafort also faces separate charges in d. C. And that trial starts in september. Even closer to the midterms. For more on whats at stake for Paul Manafort and for President Trump former watergate prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst nick akerman and it former federal prosecutor and also msnbc legal analyst paul butler. Lets start with this. The basic core issues to me are fairly clear here. Its basically that he had a lost income routed to foreign banks and paid stuff out of them without ever telling the irs he made the money. Thats right. Basically cheating the government out of oprobably 30 million worth of cash. Its a lot. What this is is its a tax case. So you have to understand that the proof thats going to come in, theyve got to do a couple things here. First they have to show he made a lot of money, that he earned it, that it wasnt a rich uncle in russia or the ukraine that died and left him 30 million. So youre going to have rick gates lay out exactly what they did to earn that money. Rick gates, who is his deputy, who we know is cooperating with federal prosecutors. Exactly. And then youve got to show that there were badges of fraud, that he deceived the government, that he hid the money, that he put in phony invoices, he created phony Bank Accounts and false names, that he did it through cyprus Bank Accounts and other offshore accounts in order to hide that money. So thats what this case is going to be about. And also in terms of the bank fraud showing that he lied about the value of various properties sew could get more money when he was really short on cash after the Ukrainian Government fell. Paul, in terms of proving this case, i think you called it a paper case before. There should be records they have. In should be people close to him saying heres money moving from x to y and the irs never heard about it. Its fairly straightforward if it in fact happened. It is a very straightforward case. In that case the trials going to be long and kind of boring. Theres going to be a lot of emails, a lot of documents, a lot of bank records. The prosecutors will try to jazz it up with reports of the 3 million brooklyn brownstone, the estate in the hamptons with the putting green, the milliondollar antique rug. But at the end of the day its a tax case. The interesting thing is that mueller has charged 32 people with crimes. Of those 31 have either pled guilty or are russians who wont be extradited to the United States and brought to justice. So manafort is the last man
standing. Hes the highestlevel official prosecuted by mueller with the closest ties to russia. And yet the prosecutor said hes not going to say the r word at trial, hes not going to bring up russia, collusion, or trump. That is an interesting point. Heres what giuliani said about whether manafort has anything on the president. Take a listen. He has no Information Incriminating of the president. I know that for a fact. They can squeeze him. Paul manafort does not know anything. Nor could it be possible that he did. He was with him for four months. This is the exact same thing he said about Michael Cohen a few months ago. Thats the exact same words. I mean, its almost like hes going to join the Liar Category pretty soon. Just like hes called Michael Cohen a liar, he called james comey a liar. Pretty soon hes going to be calling Paul Manafort a liar. But heres the thing. He hasnt cooperated. To pauls point, hes the only one whos faced trial. I should note that not only rick gates but tad devine, who is a longtime strategist who worked for Bernie Sanders very prominently in 2016 and was a Business Partner of Paul Manaforts is also going to be testifying presumably about the work they did in ukraine. I guess the question, paul, is as a former federal prosecutor is your expectation here theyre just going to go through with this trial and theyll do the other trial and if they win Paul Manafort goes to jail and thats the end of that or do you feel like theres Something Else about this set of facts with Paul Manafort in relation to the larger investigation . You know, chris, ive tried cases that have settled, that is, the defendant has pled guilty sometimes the day of trial, sometimes in the middle of the trial. They hear the opening statement, they heard very strong witnesses for the government, and they think, wait a minute. So you know, it remains to be seen. If it goes to trial, its unclear what the defense will be. So far the Public Defense has been this case doesnt have anything to do with collusion and therefore mueller shouldnt
be bringing it. But that has not persuaded the judge. You know, theres one other part of this that i find fascinating which is that he made a lot of money, 60 million, over this thats a lost money. Political consultants make a lot of money but thats a lot a lot of money. Its a lot more than ive seen. Its also 60 million he didnt pay taxes on. Which is nice work if you can get it. But theres also the fact that he was broke apparently in 2016. He was broke and working for free and he owed deripaska 21 million. It seems at the core of this theres kind of a mystery of what the heck is up with Paul Manaforts finances . I think what he was doing was living way beyond his means. Apparently. And when it came time to make more money when he did is commit the bank fraud. The whole Government Theory of the case is he stole money from the government by not paying taxes and then when the ukraine went bust and he lost his job and he still had to pay on all of these properties, all of these taxes, keep up his lavish lifestyle, what did he do . He borrowed money from banks based on these properties by inflating the value of the properties, Inflating Jobs because hes totally squeezed and hes totally hes got way too many expenses to make up for. Nick akerman and paul butler, thank you both for that. Next, the president says he has no problem doing a shutdown. That is, shutting down the government over the immigration fight. Jess macintosh and leon wolf on calling the bluff before the midterms after the break. We got married after college. And had twin boys. But then one night, a truck didnt stop. But thanks to our forester, neither did our story. And thats why well always drive a subaru. Its a hightech revolution in sleep. The new sleep number 360 smart bed. It intelligently senses your movement and automatically adjusts on each side to keep you both comfortable. And snoring . How smart is that . Smarter sleep. To help you lose your dad bod, train for that marathon, and wake up with the patience of a saint. The new sleep number 360 smart bed, from 999. Smarter sleep will change your life. And effectively Work Together is pretty special. They bring their knowledge, their tools and equipment and the proficiency to get the job done. And the whole time i have been in the fire service, pg es been there, too. Whatever we need whenever we need it. I do count on pg e to keep our firefighters safe. Thats why we ask for their help. I would certainly be willing to close it down to get it done. As you know, we are already approving things in various bills including were going to be taking care of the military. We always put the military and Law Enforcement very high. But i would be certainly willing to consider a shutdown if we dont get proper border security. Thank you. The president today the president follows through on the threat he just issued, the federal government fully controlled by republicans could shut down just about a month before the midterm elections. Which to be clear is the last thing the Republican Leadership in congress wants. We know that because paul ryan and Mitch Mcconnell met with the president last week to pitch him on a plan to avoid a Government Shutdown. By delaying a fight over Border Wall Funding until after the election. But now the president s threats of a shutdown appear to fly in the face of any deal Republican Leaders might have thought they had. Homeland security wont get funded before the midterms. Probably not. So youre not worried about a Government Shutdown before the midterms. No, thats not going to happen. Thats not going to happen. To talk more about what the president is doing here im joined by jess mcintosh, executive editor of Share Bloom Media who also worked on hillary
clintons 2016 campaign, and leon wolfe, Managing Editor of the blaze. Benji sarly my colleague made the point today that usually shutdowns are this annoying blame game but its refreshing to have the president just come out and say, he also tweeted over the weekend, he basically wants a shutdown. He will be responsible for a shutdown. Yes. Absolutely. And i think its clear he doesnt understand how shutdowns work. He also doesnt understand how the optics of a shutdown are supposed to work in washington which is kind of fun. It seems like he is hellbent on sticking the Republican Party with something just awful right before the midterms. Its like we had the putin meeting. He was going to bring putin to the white house just as were all going to go vote in the midterms and remind everybody that hes beholden to a russian dictator. And then that got scrapped and were going to do that next year instead maybe. Now he wants to shut down the government over Border Wall Funding, which is just going to remind everybody what donald trump is doing at the border, which is keeping children in cages. And this strikes me, leon, as
something about the politics of this. I think the white house thinks and Stephen Miller thinks this particularly, like donald trump, that immigration is their strong card to play, they want immigration front and center. But the data on this is not necessarily with them. You have 58 of people disapprove of his handling of immigration. Theres a record high 75 of americans saying immigration is a good thing. I think paul ryan and Mitch Mcconnell do not want this fight in the fall. I think probably if you look at this from the most rational standpoint it probably isnt political. You would have to think for him to really do this that for once this is really something donald trump means when he says, that he wants the wall. And he knows this is probably the last chance hes going to have to get it. The best probable case for the gop is theyre going to lose some seats in the house but not enough to lose full control of the house and probably theyre not going to be able to maintain full control of every gop member after the election for this wall. I think the calculus really is
that if the wall doesnt get funded before these elections its not going to get funded at all. It always is an open question with trump, does he mean what he says, hes going to force the issue on the wall and i think were about to find out. I take him at his word he wants the wall. The other thing is not just the wall, which by the way remember mexico was going to pay for, which gives the democrats a layup in terms of fighting a shutdown because mexico is supposed to pay for it. But hes also basically saying theres 11 legislative days until the government runs out of money. Today he was also talking about changing all Immigration Policy for the u. S. , get rid of what he calls Chain Migration and get rid of all this. Totally redo immigration in the u. S. In the next 11 days before the shutdown zplep doesnt know that he only has 11 days. He doesnt know what Chain Migration means. He doesnt understand what any of the things hes talking about when it comes to this policy are except perhaps building a wall. It is a very simple concept. It is related to real estate, which is a thing that he tangentially is aware of in a
meaningful capacity. True. Its why we like he likes to see those demonstrations in san diego where everybody brings up the different kinds of walls. How many times has he walked through or had cameras walk through . We could have it look like this. We could have it look like this. This is clearly something he feels a personal connection to. I am going to argue because its one of the only things before him as president that he has a basis of knowledge for wall building. Theres reporting steve bannon came up with the idea of the wall. Then he chanted back. It was his big rally thing. If he thinks the crowds want this. And other than draining the swamp never got as big a crowd reaction as building the wall. If he thinks this is what the crowd is going to go wild for theres no chance he doesnt desperately want it. Theres nothing interesting about the relationship between ryan, mcconnell, and the white house. Mcconnell in that statement where he says its not going to happen, he doesnt pretend to care what the president thinks about any of this. He clearly basically thinks the president is an idiot when it comes to this stuff specifically and hes going to run his chaim befr how he runs his chamber. And that only goes so far. But i think for the most Part Mcconnell has been hes been death on shutdowns for a long, long time. And i would argue look and im not in favor of the wall, but i would say, look, the last two shutdowns we had were in 2009 and 2013. The 2010 midterms and the 2014 midterms didnt turn out so terrible for the gop. I think hes more scared of a shutdown than is actually merited. Now, that having been said, i do think that for the most part the senate is going to ultimately follow what mcconnell wants to do, at least those who are not up for reelection or have primaries coming up. Timing here is important. I think a shutdown right before the midterms which we havent had in a while a small one last year which lasted about a weekend. Is very different. But im with you in the sense of bring it to a head. Have a referendum on what the fights about that voters know. Jess mcintosh and leon wolfe,
thanks for joining us. Coming up, with under 100 days to go, are republican mega donors really turning on President Trump ahead of the midterms . Color me skeptical. Plus tonights thing 1 thing 2 starts next. Yesss linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. Linzess can help relieve your belly pain, and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements. Linzess is not a laxative. It works differently to help you get ahead of your recurring constipation and belly pain. Do not give linzess to children less than 6, and it should not be given to children 6 to less than 18. It may harm them. Do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. Get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. The most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. If its severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. Other side effects include gas, stomach area pain, and swelling. So say yesss to help for recurring constipation. Yesss to help for belly pain. Talk to your doctor and say yesss linzess. Booking a flight doesnt have to be expensive. Just go to priceline. Its the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40 . Just tap and go. For the best savings on flights, go to priceline. No matter how much you clean, does your house still smell stuffy . Thats because your home is filled with soft surfaces that trap odors
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would have no reason to suspect that this guy he was meeting with wasnt really an israeli antiterror expert. Why alabama have this strong connection with israel . Its just alabama has always been a state that valued freedom, valued liberty. Of course. And appreciated what people went through to get it. And i think that alabama has always been a place for equality. It has. And weve celebrated throughout our history things like this. In alabama people have always been free, whatever the religion or race or sexuality its part of our heritage. Of course. Part of our heritage. That little back and forth was just the preamble to the real pranking featuring a demonstration of a brand new fictional Israeli Security device. [ beeping ] that is thing 2 in 60 seconds. Its americas most popular street name. But Allstate Agents know thats where the similarity stops. If youre on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the Washoe Zephyr could damage your siding. And thats very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. But no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local Allstate Agents knows yours. Now that you know the truth, are you in good hands . Now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im Gonna Follow The Sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller transitions™ light under control™ you always get the lowest price on our rooms, guaranteed . Lets say it in a really low voice. Carl . Lowest price, guaranteed. Just stick with badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com Sacha Baron Cohens new show, if its taught us anything, its that wow, there are a lot of republicans who are really eager to meet with a hypermacho israeli antiterror character. Disgraced former Senate Candidate roy moore of alabama is the latest. And this is the moment the antiterror Expert Character demonstrated a new marvel of Israeli Technology. The pedophile detector. It is very, very simple to use. You just switch it on, and because neither of us are Sex Offenders then it make absolutely nothing. You just put it on, you put it nearby. [ beeping ] theres obviously a problem. Hold on. [ beeping ] it must be faulty. Sorry. Is this your jacket . Yes. Did you lend the jacket to somebody else maybe . No. Ive been married for 33. I never had an accusation of such things. I am not accusing you at all. Well, then if it is an instrument then certainly im not a pedophile. Okay . No, but the machine well, i dont know maybe Israeli Technology hasnt developed properly. This is 99. 8 active. It is not saying thaur a pedophile. Of course not. I am simply cutting this conversation right now. Thank you. Have you been i support israel. I dont support this kind of stuff. vo people with Type 2 Diabetes are excited about the potential of onceweekly ozempic®. 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is considering essentially tweaking the way they calculate the sort of expenditure Capital Gains that would amount to a unilateral Executive Agency Led 100 billion tax cut for the rich without congress. And i saw that and i thought, if youre the Koch Brothers, you dont like the trade stuff but thats sort of what youre in for. Well, the Koch Brothers, you might be like them if you had their father. They very much believe that the federal government should have a military and police force and nothing else. They dont want to pay taxes or believe in regulation. They believe we can do it through contracts because we all have principles. It is very important to remember, the koches are serious peaches. They are good managers of their capital. Anyone that thinks like its a wonderful life, theyre going like mr. Potter, lets take homes from poor people is making a big mistake. You need to challenge them on their ideas and exactly
correctly, they are very popular on ideas. Unpopular ideas. But they are figuring out how to market them so people are deceived. One of the things theyve done very effectively, it is hard to trace because it is dark money, as up, they put a lot of money into State Legislatures and into creating infrastructures in states to push their ideas. We saw in it kansas. I wonder what your experience has been. Youre running for mayor if im not mistaken, this cycle, how it plays out locally. Ill tell you a story from 2012. This is not a new phenomenon. Six years ago i was running for Secretary Of State in missouri. We have an individual, maybe part of the koch net work, i dont know, but who put almost 900,000 into my Points Campaign for Secretary Of State. Now the last, this is the Secretary Of State race. The last over 400,000 of that did not go directly. We didnt have limits on
contributions then but it didnt go directly to my Points Campaign. It went through a pac and it was funneled and nobody knew it came from until after the election. The reason he did that was because we called him out on what he was doing. It appeared in the New York Times a couple weeks before the election. My point is i think that they know that their ideas are unpopular. So what we saw in missouri, this is again when we didnt have Contribution Limits to what you can give on a campaign and they still chose a dark money route to directly give it. They feel that theyre not winning the argument and the only way they can is if they can seal the messenger. Just to be clear so people are not confused, this donor, i forget his name. A big missouri name. Rex. Hes a huge guy, always big chess maven. An interesting guy. He is an interesting guy. He is the koch guy. He is not a koch but he plays role. One of the things thats interesting in tipping it more broadly, the Koch Brothers are not going after heidi heitkamp, theyre not giving to her possibly, she voted for regulatory, to roll back dodd frank. And that to me shows where theyre focused. The Koch Brothers are not republicans. Theyre libertarians. Big l libertarians and they want to get rid of regulation. They really believe wrongly, but they really believe if we would get rid of all this regulation, we would be richer and healthier, the skies would be cleaner, the water would be cleaner and of course the Koch Brothers would be fantastically richer than they already are. Last time on this program we talked about trade. It seems like you can choose to be a jeff flake here and make a speech or put your money where
your mouth is. They can spend 20 million trying to run against these terrorists. Absolutely. They are the most powerful people in the Republican Party other than President Trump. You asked, how does it compare, it was almost amazing to me how people would come up with a legislative idea, an agenda they thought might be bipartisan, People Didnt Say Go see the speaker, go see the president of the senate. Them, and insert a major republican donor. And it is the same deal here with the Koch Brothers. If theyre serious that standing up for the country and putting the country ahead of the party, they can do it better than most of the senators, frankly. Thanks for joining me. One last thing. If youve listened to our newest episode of our podcast, why is this happening, he has a new article that goes with the