One of the senates leading liberals. I think that hillary would make a great president. I have announced that im you will port supporting her. But does this count, i guess . Neither of this counts. My exclusive interview with senator al franken when all 234 starts now. Good evening from new york. Our top story tonight involves one of the most powerful stories in america, kneecaped in an attack by very sophisticated hackers serving the interest of yes, one of americas greatest enemies. Sony pictures is undersiege starting three weeks ago. The hackers, who call themselves guardians of peace, took down sonys Computer System posting a warning that the breech was just a beginning, promising to expose the companys secrets if it did not, obey the group. The new James Bond Film including some embarrassing notes from executives. The hackers posted internal emails that included racially tinged jokes about president obamas potential movie viewing hablts and messages in which Company Executives insult wig time directors and upcoming sewny films. They revealed the personal data and many, many of the companys employees 47,000 Social Security numbers. Just massive. Now, former employees of the company have filed a class action laut saying that sony itself failed to properly secure some of that sensitive employee data. At this point, lets be clear. Nobody knows whos behind this sony hack. Its denied involvement, but it did call the hack a righteous deed. North korea took offense. It uses a plot to kill kim jong un. Lags night, one of the stars of the interview was asked about it on the colbert report. Is it appropriate to make jokes about real things in the woerld . I personally think it is appropriate to make jokes about real things. Did you think about changing his name at all . Like calling him phil jong un . We did. Then we thought whose feelings are we trying to spare by doing that . Kim jong un . That probably wouldnt have worked. This afternoon, we hear all planned media appearances are canceld for this movie, the interview. Its coming out on christmas day. Sony just introduces this today along with the new threat in which they actually infer to the 9 111 attacks and warn people to stay away from the places where the interview will be shown. Those are strong threats, but we also want to tell you that dhs says it has no credible intelligence to indicate an active plot along these lines. Joining me now, editor of company town, thats the l. A. Times business of hollywood section. Good evening to you. Good evening, ari. Is sony going to pull this movie . Yeah, thats the big question. This whole thing has gone, its crossed over from surreal to criminal and, now, just sort of very obscure and bizarre there is chatter all over twitter. Will they pull it . Will they put it it . I know that today, theater owners groups have met behind closed doors and over the telephone to determine if its safe to put this movie out, deciding if they want to pull it or not. And will sony go ahead with it . So far, theyve said nothing. Give us just a flavor, especially from people who heard a bit about this. Just what kind of corporate Foreign Policy disaster this has been, which is not to say what should be done about it, its clearly huge. What is the flavor, what is the mood in l. A. About all of this. Well, i know one thing is for certain everybody in hollywood out there right now is emptying their email boxes, securing their servers and just trying to double down on security. All of those emails are coming out, imagine all of the data including how much money people get paid, how much money executives on expense accounts. Even their Health Information has been leaked. And its been quite a chore for the press for the media for us to go through it all and know its exactly appropriate to put what is out and what is not. So that, as part of what we can see from reporting, is a concerted effort to intimidate and bully people in United States from either putting this fim m out and going to see it, as were reporting in the threats. And yet theres something really problematic here. You dont get sent to jail in this country from making movies. But a Global Commerce environment, what is the fallout here for these companies and actors and folks for the next movie . If theres going to be this kind of headache and sanction of damage, theres going to be a killing of censorship going forward. Yea, thats exactly it. In the aurgment of are they going to go through with it, i cant imagine them looking at this very closely to see what happens. You dont want to let a Foreign Government if it is north korea or anonymous hackers in the middle east or russia or whatever they might be, you dont want them being able to radically ator a companys ability to do business. By pulling this movie, it sets a very dangerous signal. Yeah, and the power of comedy here, this is a film that we havent seen yet, but it makes these arguments. Do you think thats the take away . That theyll regret ever going down this path in this film . Sony . Squl weve reviewed intense debate inside the studio along with its stars and seth rogan. Sony actually we believe the ahead and commissioned or worked with the Ram Corporation to get a detailedal sis. This is about how reporters report on this kind of stolen information. Now, screen writer Eric Sorenson whose emails were leaked said news out lets who have report on guardians of peace are morally treasonist and spectacularly dishonorable. News out lets who have report on guardians of peace are morally treasonist and spectacularly dishonorable. And he continued that case today on the today show. Is there anything that points to wrong doing at the company . That helps anyone in anyway. What do you say to aaron sorkens argument there, theres no value in these materials. Im a big fan of aaron sorkens screen writing. I cant say aappreciate his take on ethics. What he says there is just wrong. Theres nothing in the Public Interest in these documents. We have reported the stories involving these documents that showed a gender pay gap between two copresident s of Sony Pictures studio. Yeah, we have them being paid less than their costars. Exactly. Weve pointed to racebased pay disparities, the failure of sony micktures to protect their identifiable information which is something that is illegal. I dont know that you can say with a straight face that theres nothing of public importance thats been revealed in these emails. And i dont think thats aaron sorkens call to make anyway. Right. Hes putting hymns out there as an ash xx. He also said is deeply involved in this one. Everyone remembers a few good men. Everyone wants the truth. Some people cant handle the truth, as he put it there. Theres a lot of truth, though, that is in reporting the product of unauthorized disclosure or even criminal acts. What do you say to the argument of people here that, look, these are the fruits of crimes related to potentially allies of our enemies and should be treated a little differently. Information is not as clean. There are decades of reporters using documents that are legally retained. Its longestablished. I think one thing thats important to understand is that the alternative to reporting on the sonyhacked documents is not making them disappear. Thats too late, right . So the alternative is just having them out there and i think they will and are going to continue the judgment. Everyone presupposing whether we can figure out each leak to society. At the time, it was usually controversial. Over the years, its been a point of consensus, that it was a good light to shine on vietnam. Absolutely. And i dont want to defend the choices that every news agency is making. I know that weve been very skup louse about reporting things that we felt were in the Public Interest and we havent reported Social Security numbers or anything private that could really damage a lot of peoples lives in an immediate way. I any these judgments are hard. Its fascinating its been spiraling bigger and bigger. Now, this show has spent a considerable amount of your time if youve been watching. Question will the grand jury testimony in the Darren Wilson case from witness 40 was really credible. Something chris hayes has been reporting on. Now, theres a new bomb shell report that says it was not. Plus a response from the Cleveland Police and its somewhat surprising. Thats next. So to kill the germs that may make your family sick, we recommend using lysol disinfectant spray every day. Lysol is approved to kill 80 germs, including hard to kill viruses that can live on surfaces for over 4 weeks. It works on hard and soft surfaces to help stop the spread of bacteria. So help keep your family healthy with lysol. Laths night on this show, i interviewed the president of the Cleveland Police union after he had been publicly demanding an apology for wearing this shirt, advocating justice for tamir rice and john crawford, 12 and 22 in controversial incidents in ohio. The union chief said hakins doesnt know if you have e enough to discuss the case and should stick to football. We have been hearing many strong responses from that interview. Including his argument that the nfl does have a right to speak about the case. But he must also apologize for those very views. He can voice his opinion and thiss fine. Im just saying, calling for justice for his opinion on what happened that day, hes wrong. To be clear, are you saying he can state it, are you width drawing a request for an apology . Or he can state it but he has to also apologize . Im not withdrawing anything. He disrespected Police Officers who are out there doing their job. Hes sur roubded by Police Officers. When youre talking about two of us that were put in a situation like these two were, youre talking about all of us. What do you think about the concern people have that folks are being killed in some cases by officers when theres less than lethal threat posed . How about this. Listen to Police Officers commands. Listen to what we tell us tell you and just stop. When police face allegations of misconduct, the unions and departments often band together. But as this con tro verse e ver sill has continued in cleveland and beyond, we have some breaking news to report to you tonight. This evening, the police chief issued a new statement breaking with the union chief and taking with a different view. In his new statement, he says. Three weeks after a grand jury decided not to indict, three weeks after a grand jury decided not to indict, there are growing questions about the grand jury process itself. As all in has discussed in several segments, no one calls that process more into question than the use of witness 40 whose testimony often seem today be hard to believe. This is the witness who wrote in a journal entry which she submitted to the grand jury which she headed up on august 9th. She thought, that morning, im going to take my random drive to florss that need to understand the black race better so i can stop calling blacks n word and stall e start calling them people. She also wrote that in the final moments of Michael Browns life, the cop just stood there and dang if that kid didnt start running right at the cup like a Football Player, head down. And it was that phrasing that made her testimony a fox news favorite. But then, he looked like a Football Player with his head down charging at officer wilson. Charged ate him like a Football Player with his head down charging. That Michael Brown was charging like a Football Player fullforce on officer wilson. One witness described it as charging at officer wilson like a Football Player with his head down. Yes, one witness did. But, before that witness, witness 40 ever appeared before the grand jury, she was interviewed by the f. B. I. And represented by the u. S. Attorneys office. And they were very skeptical of her story. Part of their view with her reads so bhob mcculloch let them in. The story made no sense and who the f. B. I. s whose attorney basically seemed not to believe and thats the fairest reading we can give you. Now, a new bomb shell report putting the testimony even further into question. The smoking gun web site reporting to identify witness 40 that she is a woman with, a criminal past who has a history of making racist remarks. Were not endeavoring to give a proper name to this witness. We are endevil ering, though, to were not endeavoring to give a proper name to this witness. We are endevil ering, though, to figure out why someone who was so noncredible was testified first, what did you learn . How did you verify the nature of this person in this situation . Well, what we did was we looked at all of the two volumes of grand jury testimony. Since we looked at the unredacted portions of the pedigree information, since the criminal convictions and she was adopted, found at a Facebook Page that was in support of Law Enforcement officers, et cetera, et cetera. And then we basically went and spent a couple of days trying to connect individual peoples to that fact pattern. So you did all of that cross referencing. You achieved this. You spoke with her in some capacity and corresponded with her. Yes. Does your reporting suggest that she did witness this incident . No. This is a woman who was not there. And fabricated this whole event. The thing thats first amazing is she first was interviewed by the police. She turned over five weeks later to the prosecutors and the f. B. I. And the United States attorneys office. They had five weeks to vet this womans story before they put her in for a hundred minute meeting with the f. B. I. Five weeks. Everything we gather on her was two days, start to finish. We started it two days ago. There was plenty of time to determine that this was an implausible story, has been accused in the past by a local Police Department of fabricating material. Do you think that record and the readily available racist remarks, including on the day of the killing, im just asking a basic question, do you think that should have disqualified her before being put before the grand jury at all . Once you go in and tell that story, a police im a journalist. I dont have subpoena power. I cant get her phone records. But when she told that story to the cops the first time, they could have just proven that story in two days. And i dont think anyone is set to do it. And now what do we have . We have a position where her account is now baked into the narrative all over the police. Place. Exactly. So it seems to have equal weight to the grand jury and she was nowhere to be found. Thats near where Michael Brown got killed. As you say, you did it quickly, but you did it thoroughly. Thank you for being here. We want a term from the reporting piece. From the justice piece, good evening to you. What do you make of what you just heard and its significance in not the outcome of the grand jury decision, but whether the grand jury processed here was normal, june form or fair . As weve said all along, we didnt think the grand jury process was normal or fair for Michael Brown to get justice. In fact, where he think, when you look at how they questioned this witness as opposed to how they questioned witnesses that support it, Michael Brown heavily cross examined Doreen Johnson and others. But this witness is a detailed account now. If you believe it at best, did it where it was so inconvenient for her to be on the stand for a long time. But if it was deliberate, they didnt want her on the stand at all. For the judge to settle this grand jurys decision if this information is, in fact, correct. Right. Mr. Crumb, some of the racist writings and ramblings of this witness, i dont want to read on air. Theyre here and available to the public and on a smoking gun. In your view, though, when you say that, are ewe saying that the prosecutor here, to put this kind of decision with criminal problems and racism publicly put forward at that time, that that, itself, means that mr. Mcculloch basically abused his prosecutorial obligations . The argument could be made, especially when you consider the fact that should have known or could have easily ascertained that this witness had fabricated information before in another highprofile case in the fact that if they would have veted her properly, you know, the police had the resources from the state of missouri. For people trying to make sense of this tonight, what are you going to do about it . Is there a filing or an action that youre considering taking . Absolutely. We talked to his family about this all day. And we do blooe this should go before a judge. I aprooesh yat your perspective on it. There are many calls that are there are many calls that are tough calls that are in the grey. Looking at the writings, it doesnt seem grey. It seems fairly outrageous to put this kind of witness before a grand jury. Highly unusual. Mr. Benjamin crumb, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you very much. You bet. Next, we want to talk about my exclusive interview with senator al franken. Thats up ahead. A devastating scene at the school in northwest pakistan where a group of armed mill tants laid siege to the grounds this morning going on a violent rampage that left more than 140 people dead, a vast majority of them, children children. Nbc news chief correspondent Richard Engle has this report. This was a wellplanned massacre. A bloody, eighthour rampage executed without mercy mplt as the wounded arrived at a nearby hospital, they described the horror. Translator we locked our classroom door from the inside. But three attackers shot their way in. And then shot at us. Was hiding under a desk and watched in horror as his teacher was killed. She tried to stand up to the gunmen. They shut shot our teacher, he says, and then burned her body. Nbc was at the scene of todays massacre. Push push. Once inside, they entered an auditorium packed with high schoolaged students. The others opened fire indiscriminately and fanned out through the classrooms, firing as they went. Pakistan commandos arrived within an hour. But the militants boobie trapped the school compound. Others gathered outside the hospital desperate for news. Many are the children of the soldiers who are fighting pakistans war on terror. This summer, the Pakistani Army launched a major offensive flattening villages, confiscated weapons. Todays attack was the talibans revenge. It drew condemnation from around the world, imcolluding from pakistans own Nobel Laureate shot by the taliban for daring to go to school. The Community Leaders in pack substantial, all Political Parties in everyone, we should send out together and fight against terrorism. Tonight, it seems pakistanis may be ready to come together and demand that their government take on those who dare to massacre so many innocent children. Nbcs Richard Engle reporting. We will be right back. We recommend using lysol disinfectant spray every day. Lysol is approved to kill 80 germs, including hard to kill viruses that can live on surfaces for over 4 weeks. It works on hard and soft surfaces to help stop the spread of bacteria. So help keep your family healthy with lysol. What youre doing now, janice. Blogging. Your blog is just pictures of you in the mirror. Its called a fashion blog, todd. Well, ive been helping people save money with progressives discounts. Flo, can you get janice a job . [ laughs ] you shouldve stuck to softball i was so much better at softball than janice, dad. Wheres your wife, todd . Vacation. Discounts like homeowners, multipolicy i got a discount on this ham. Ive got the meat sweats. This is good ham, diane. Paperless discounts give it a rest, flo. All yeah, flo, give it a rest. Welcome back. Al franken has been a pop cultural figure for decades on saturday night live. But every e ever since he was elected to the u. S. Senate, youve seen a lot less of franken in the media. As the National Journal report of this year, the Junior Center for minnesota made himself a stranger to the national press, rarely granting interviews to National Media outfits in an effort to prove he was a serious policymaker. Franken is back on tv tonight. He just sat down with me for an interview in his senate office. We discussed politics in policy. He made some major news on the 2016 front and he began with one of the legislative priorities Digital Privacy and what that means in the age of uber, the ridesharing app. Youre sponsoring Location Privacy protection act. When people walk around in public, they can be seen. Its not that private. Why do you think its so important that data about where you go is private and sensitive . Your gee owe location data is what were talking about. Where you are, where you go to the doctor, where you take your child to school. If what youre doing on the week ebd e end. One of the problems weve seen in this, their own employees and executives have been misusing this. Uber, a popular ridesharing app, misused where customers travel. One executive reportedly used that information against a reporter who had criticized the company. As chair of the senate subcommittee, he gave uber a monday deadline to address new questions about how they use sensitive gee owe location data. Part of what my work has been doing is letting consumers understand whats out there. And so you know what youre signing up for when you do Something Like this. And, also, letting the Companies Understand that they have some obligation to have a Privacy Policy in the following. Then there are apps people never signed up for at all. Stalker apps. To protect sensitive location information. A problem franken has heard about from his constituents firsthand. He shared one womans exchange with an abusive partner. She went to a Domestic Violence center in a county building. And she was there five minutes and got a text on her phone saying why are you at the county building . Are you at the doe mesic Violence Center . And that scared her. So they took her to the courthouse to get a restraining order. After she was there, she said why did you go to the courthouse . And she didnt. It was a tracking app. A stalking app. How is that even legal . It is legal. Stalking is not legal. Right. But im trying to make those illegal as part of this bill. The protection act previously passed the committee and introduced it again in the new congress. On the morning of september 11th. As we were speaking a few miles away, c. I. A. Director john brennan was criticizing the torture report. You said it shows the c. I. A. Lied to the public, lied to the president for some time. Should there be consequences . Im thinking about that. Youre talking about whether people should be prosecuted . Should people who are colonelly working at the c. I. A. Be fired . Should anyone be brought before a court to have a trial . And then, depending on the outcome of the trial, should anyone go to jail . You know, i havent thought that through. We tended to not look back at this in a way that is about Holding People responsible. And maybe thats wrong. We are a country that acknowledges its failures. And thats a good thing about us. On the prosecution, of people, id like to hear more about. Votes on amendments and et cetera. So well see. Would you call him a good friend . Or a best friend . More its kind of a thing where we will argue on the floor but then go out to dinner and just laugh. Yeah . No. That doesnt happen. Have you ever seen him laugh . I have. And, in fact, ive seen she has laughed. In response to something ive said. And in response to something he has said. How is that . Laughter comes easy for the veteran member of saturday night live. He doesnt always believe in satire. He add some fun last week for mark beggich who lost his seat in the midterm election. We need more mayors here. Sometimes we say we need more diversity, we need more women. God knows we need more sadists. A lot of people ask me is being senator as much fun as working on saturday night live. And the answer, of course, is no. Its not close. But it its the best job ive ever had. In 2008, you barely, barely, barely won, right . I dont think thats fair. By a few hundred votes. Closest race in american history. Youre now coming off a race where you won ten points. What changed . One of the things that changed is i had a term behind me. Or most of a term behind me. I was able to build on what i had done and communicate that to minnesota. I think i had a pretty good record of accomplishment. So i was able to give him something to vote for. I reached across party lines to find common ground. But i also stood my ground when powerful interests came after the middle class. The democrats i think hillary will make a great president. I have announced that im supporting her. But does this count . I guess . Heres the question. Do you need to see who all the candidates are, first . No. No. Imthink that, you know, im ready for hillary. Weve not had someone this experienced, this tough. And shes very, very impressive. It was an endorsement delivered as only franken could. So you are endorsing her today . If this is what you call abendorsement, i guess yes. So, yes. Did you hear that . Senator franken did just endorse Hillary Clinton for president and, of course, she hasnt announced shes running. Theres other room to report. Is the world ready for a third president bush . Thats ahead, too. Brief up date on a story we brought you last night. A former marine suspected in a killing spree that left six dead in suburban philadelphia has been found dead. It ended a day and a halflong man hunt and put the entire community on edge. Bradley stone, an iraq war veteran, is believed to have fatally shot his exwife and five of her relatives in the early hours of monday morning. Stones body was found in the afternoon in the woods near his home in pensburg. A local distriblgt Attorney Says he appears to have died from selfinflicted wounds. Would you like to see your son, jeb, run . Hes, by far, the best qualified man, but, no, i really dont. There are other people out there that are very qualified and weve had enough bushes. But, no. Former First Lady Barbara Bush was once willing to say that in pub lick. Weve had enough bushes. When he announced plans to yes, launch a leadership pack to actively explore a run for the presidency. He made the announcement, of course, on facebook. And he described his familys thanksgiving activities. As a result of these president bush also spoke briefly with wtvj about todays announcement. Its just a part of the process of seriously considering running for president. I havent committed to doing it, but this is a time when we should be celebrating the incredible opportunities that exist in this country and most people really dont feel it. They think the government doesnt work for them. And if i can get comfortable with being candidate that gives people hope to take advantage of our opportunities thats what im pursuing. Its not an easy decision, though. It is a lifechanging one for a long while. Over 200,000 people are hospitalized every year with flu complications. Lysol disinfectant spray is approved to kill 80 germs, including viruses that can live on surfaces for over 4 weeks. So help keep your family healthy with lysol. [ female announcer ] youve tried to forget your hepatitis c. But you shouldnt forget this. Hepatitis c is a serious disease. Left untreated, it can lead to liver damage and potentially liver cancer. But you havent been forgotten. Theres never been a better time to rethink your hep c. Go to hepchope. Com to register for more information. Then talk to your doctor about scientific advances that may help you move on from hepatitis c. Are we looking at, yet, another bush versus yet another clinton in 2016 . Dont give up hope yet. We have msnbc contributor sam cedar and former democratic candidate for governor of florida. Good evening to you both. Sam, is jeb bush a real future president right here . I would say absolutely not. He may have had his day at one point. But i just dont think he can make it through the republican primary, and even then, im not sure hed be president. Alex, you know a lot about this. You narrowly lost the governor ship in 2010. Jeb has had success in that state. Help us understand him since youve been there. Well, i agree with sam. That he hasnt run for office in 12 years. And i think jeb is going to be a little rusty around the edges. His big problem is going to be two things. Immigration reform and something called common core, which he is the father and the designer of common core, which is very unpopular. I have to say that if it comes down to hillary versus jeb, hillary will carry florida. Do you think his views on immigration which may not always been republican primary voters, do you think your opinion will change based on estimation of him . Jeb has a history of being very firm in his convictions. And i think hes out there as having said that the Republican Party is going to have to come to him, versus him making the moves to go to the Republican Party. The competition and the republican primary are going to be very revealing. He, historically, has been very firm in his principles and what he believes in. If that is the case, then he doesnt win. The real story, ultimately, for this republican primary is starting to heat up is those who we perceived as completely marginal, six or eight years ago, will they finally take the primary. Will we see one of those people who we think are just sort of hopping out of the clown car, forgive the expression. And they actually end up winning. And i think jeb bush, i think hes 10, 15 years too late. The other thing, if you have Something Like biden running, if he does continuity, you have the question of both parties seeking the person they like most or the person they think can run contra to whatever they expect on the other side. It would seem if theres a dynasty on one side, the other party might gain that out and want someone else. You dont have to be a politics fan to know people that clintonbush sounds like a real heavy load. Let me play a little more from that discussion. We havent aired this yet. But this is his estimation of elizabeth warren, obviously talked about as an al terntive to hillary for the democrats. Take a listen. People have asked me about elizabeth warren. Elizabeth, you know, i used to do this thing called air america. Elizabeth was like a semiregular on my show. But shes not running. E actually quite fondly remember those days when she would show up on air america. And i think you work there, too. But senator franken didnt mention you. Well, i think he would be sorry. Sorry. I dont take too much offense. But i will say, i think hes right. I dont think shes going to run. In fact, i think a lot of this the pushing of her running is doing her dissofs in many respects. Shes got a lot of power in the u. S. Senate. And the work that shes doing now. What do you make of this trickle of endorsements. Its not only the prom nebt people. We dont have a history doing very well in offyear e legss. What do you say to folks who understand that enthusiasm for Hillary Clinton as a candidate. But say hold on, this is just crazy that people, senators, you know, were reporting on what theyre doing. Theyre lining up. Theyre putting the word out. What do you make of that. And could it actually be counter productive. That is it for tonight. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. You are buttering me up with the air america ref rentss. It worked. It was all senator franken. Flattery will get you everywhere. We have only had male president s in this country. That may change. And that may change sometime soon. It is kind of funny that every presidency at a certain point has hit what you might call a sort of men pause, a sort of president ial men pause
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