Controversy at the university of virginia. And on this thanksgiving eve, your siberian traffic and weather together. All in starts right now. Good evening from back here in new york city. Im chris hayes. President obama has a message for protesters in ferguson, missouri, as an announcement of the grand jury im sorry, this is not correct. Hold on one second. Let me get that fixed. We are here tonight as in the wake of protests that have rocked the entire country. In 37 states weve seen protests. Were right now looking at a live shot of ferguson, missouri, which seems to be very, very quiet and very, very calm at this hour. Last night police had closed off some of the main stretches that had been the site of most of the protests. And tonight you see live shot of National Guard who are patrolling. The reports we have from ferguson is its a very quiet night. It was not a quiet night last night in citiesy ies across the country. Marches and protests in places like new york city and los angeles, in dallas ft. Worth, in philadelphia and in boston. All of those places rising up to lend their support, but the protesters in ferguson who found themselves facing down what they see as continued injustice and Racial Disparities in policing. Why were they not in there at the first sign of an overturned police car or a smashed police car window with a show of force that would have stopped this . Thats Lieutenant Governor, republican Lieutenant Governor in missouri who is directing pretty aggressive criticism at governor jay nixon. He went on to suggest the Obama Administration had pressured nixon to hold the National Guard troops back. Michael browns mother appeared this morning on the today show where she said shes been heartbroken since the verdict. She also responded to the criticism of the emotional reaction from her husband seconds after the family learned that Darren Wilson would not be indicted. I dont feel that he stirred the crowd. The crowd was already stirred. Its been stirring since august 9th. I hold i wouldnt hold him accountable for that. That comes from a higher power elected official, and its called the governor. The protest last night in ferguson coming after the kaysen monday may have been some of the least contentious of anywhere in the country. Protests took place in major cities. In boston, where 45 were arrested, 3about 1400 marched through the streets. The inmates put their hands up in a stunning show of solidarity behind bars. In new york mass gridlock as thousands blocked highways and bridges. In washington, activists staged a diein outside Police Department headquarters. In cleveland protesters blocked cars on the freeway, though their anguish focused on more than just the killing of mike brown. Theres a reason these protests were widespread. Fergusons racial dynamics in that part of the country, the frustration with police can be found in every major city and small towns as well. The statistics are startling. Young black maels are at far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts. 21 times greater according to a pro publica analysis of data. Those in cleveland were on the tragic killing of one of their own. This video shows 12yearold tamir rice in what would turn out to be the last minutes of his life. He can be seen walking along the sidewalk playing with and sometimes pointing what police would later learn was a pellet gun. At one point he stops pacing to play with the snow. He can be seen on the Surveillance Video making a snowball and tossing it on to pavement. Minutes later he can be seen sitting in the gazebo. He can be seen getting up just as the police car pulls up. An officer pulls up and by the time the car has stopped tamir rice has been shot. You can see him fall to the ground just behind the police car. Heres how it happened once more. Within seconds of the squad car pulling up, you can see tamir rice falls to the ground. Police had been called by a 911 caller who had warned that the gun rice was carrying was probably fake. Heres a bit of that call. Hes sitting on the swing right now, but he keeps pulling in and out of his pants and pointing it at people. Probably a juvenile, you know . President of the Cleveland Police patrolmans association said the responding officers were not told by the dispatcher the gun might be fake. This is the Airsoft Gun Police say rice was carrying. The orange safety indicator meant to mark it as a toy had been removed. In a Statement Today rices family said their sons death could have been avoided. They also called for calm as protesters gathered at Cleveland City hall. We understand that some of you are hurt, angry and sad about our loss. But lets use those emotions in a way that will contribute to positive efforts and solutions that bring chamg to cleveland, northeast ohio and cities across the nation as it relates to how Law Enforcement officials interact with citizens of color. Joiping me hakim jeffrey, democrat from new york and cofounder of center for policing equity. You work studying racial bias and policing. Youve worked with police. Tell me your response to that video of tamir rice. Anybody who is not heartsick at seeing that, who doesnt have a cousin or a son or a nephew and thinks that could have been in my family is dead inside. Alice walker says that the most important question is why is the child crying. And i see that and i say, we dont have good enough answers for that within Law Enforcement. Why is it that Law Enforcement theres not mandatory training on how to identify and engage with young people and why is it that we cant give our young people in those communities the chance to mature and enjoy their childhood until they have to be burdened with the way of adulthood. Congressman, we saw a lot of things. Were seeing now a natural move mrnt and this. Ive had you on the show to talk about things in new york city, specific. Youve been pretty outspoken about police in new york city. There was a wave of, you know, discontent with the militarization of police and talks about reform which quietly, of course, was killed in congress. No one is talking about reform in the 1033 program which was Getting Police military equipment. What is going on in washington thats responsive to whats going on in the streets of new york and videos like that. Well get back to washington next week. And hopeful whats happened in brooklyn, cleveland, ferguson, whats happened all across america for decades in terms of young, unarmed, innocent, africanamerican men being gunned down by Police Officers, often without justification, and then no criminal consequences that we decide to confront this issue in a meaningful way when we get back to congress. Democrats and republicans, people from all over the country, because this is a national problem. But chris, at the end of the day, in my view, the only way that this behavior will change is if theres criminal accountability at the end of the day when an officer engages in the use of force that is excessive and someone dies. But this is precisely the issue. Weve seen the statistics about how rarely police are, in fact, prosecuted for shootings and killings. Part of that rests on a pretty firm legal foundation. Police obviously have far more latitude to use force, a, b, it is difficult to get inside the mindset of a Police Officer or the two Police Officers that pulled up in front of tamir rice, one of whom was a rookie. I imagine when we hear from them, they were going to say they were scared, they perceived him as a threat, they perceived a gun and thats where the story ends in most cases. Thats exactly right. They said the orange cap was removed. But one of the parts thats really telling to me in this is the dispatch audio says that the suspect was maybe 20. Suspect was 12. So its not just that this is a Law Enforcement problem, though it is. Law enforcement suffers from the same set of Cognitive Biases that weve all collectively decided black boys are dangerous at a younger age than everybody else in the world. So yes, we absolutely have to deal with Law Enforcement. There need to be consequences for illegal behavior, but we cant stop with Law Enforcement. What these trends have been showing us is that weve got a bigger societal problem. Until we take collective responsibility instead of just pinning it on Police Officers, then were going to be stuck because the people who are coming on to the job, the new rookies every new year, theyll have the exact same set of biases that the rest of these officers have and all the rest of us have. The point you made that i want to clarify, when one of the Police Officers called into dispatch, he referred to the person they were referring to as a suspect at the time as a male of 20 when he was in fact 12. Now, thats a good point there because theres no reason to suspect that officers lying, right . Hes actually perceiving this child as a full grown man. Part of the issue here, it strikes me, in moving from street unrest to protest to concrete steps is the polarization that happens around these issues, right . We have seen some republican politicians talk about how our criminal Justice System is broken, how we overpolice, we militarize, too many people in prison, but then when you go into the heart of the conservative base right now, theyre saying Darren Wilson was justified in what he did and people shouldnt disobey the police. Well, this is a polarized country, a polarized congress and a polarized reaction. A racially disparate reaction in terms of many white conservatives taking one view and the Africanamerican Community taking another. One of the things that needs to happen over the next two years, president obama announced a very Important Initiative earlier this year related to my brothers keeper, and a meaningful intervention to socially and economically connect young africanamerican boys and young latino boys to the mainstream. And in order to ultimately solve this problem, weve got to deal with the disconnect that exists in communities of color all across the country. But congressman, i hear this and i agree, and i dont think anyone could possibly be against that as a policy initiative. But people are getting shot when they are connected to the mainstream. Thats correct and tamir rice is dead right now not because of whatever his familiar background was or his connection or disconnection from the mainstream. This gets to the professors point, that at the end of the day theres a societal problem in terms of how africanamerican and latino males are viewed broadly. And until you change the underlying dynamic as it relates to the economics and the social infrastructure yeah. And plug our young men of color and boys of color into the mainstream, that general societal perception wont change and youll continue to see this type of Law Enforcement behavior. What youre talking about, this sort of deep prejudice we have, stereotype, expectation of young men of color, well talk more about that later in the store. Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and phillip goff, thank you. I had an exclusive interview with Dorian Johnson, Michael Browns friend who was with him when he was shot by sister wilson. As the 100 electric eg, and the 45 highway mpg tdi clean diesel. And last but not least, the High Performance gti. Looks like were gonna need a bigger podium. The Volkswagen Golf family. Motor trends 2015 cars of the year. Or you have your smartphone, go to pbs. Org right now and pull up this piece. One of the newly released witness statements tells the story of the shooting of Michael Brown. You will see this incredible chart. I spent an hour poring over this today. Well talk about how it puts the witnesses to the Michael Brown shooting into context. Well talk about that next. Roc. Her trublend. Light 4 it blends in doesnt build up for a flawless nude look find your trublend at easy breezy beautiful covergirl hit him with a hard count,ine. See if theyll tip their hand. The nfl trusts duracell quantum to their game day communication. Theyre blitzing up the gut get out of the pocket hut duracell quantum. Lasts up to 35 longer than the competition. I would prosecute all those people for perjury. Wow, really . Well, i mean, to testify falsely in a case at which you can put a man in jail for the rest of his life is an extremely serious but you know how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. His belief according to him is, its just unreliable. These people believe they saw what they didnt see. Its not unreliable. These are people who are friends of his, people who have an ax to grind. Former new york mayor Rudy Giuliani said about witnesses in the Michael Brown shooting. Ive heard a lot of people on social media saying something to that effect. One of the people who have been targeted by such criticism, people assuming he must be lying is Dorian Johnson. One of the three people actually involved in the incident that ended with Darren Wilson killing mike brown. Last night right next to the spot where brown was shot dead Dorian Johnson told me what he saw or what he recalled that day. Gunshots go off, right, inside the car, is that correct . He shot from inside the car, yes, Darren Wilson shot from inside the car. He was not outside the car when the first shots went off. You fall to the ground, is that what happened . No. I was standing up. Youre standing right next to him. Im standing right next to him. I saw that he was struck and blood was on his chest. He had on a white shirt and blood ran down his shirt. Thats how i knew that he was hit. What does mike do . We ran. Thats when we ran. There are places where dorians recollection appears to be contradicted by forensic evidence. Although hes said that mike browns hands were never inside Darren Wilsons vehicle, forensic evidence shows his blood on the gun, on the uniform and inside the car. But that does not mean that Dorian Johnson is lying or even untrustworthy. Memory, after all is a tricky thing. Bob mcculloch does not plan to prosecute witnesses for perjury. I think there are a number of witnesses, in all honesty, that truly believe what they said. And the ones who were consistent throughout even in the face of their testimony being in conflict with the physical evidence that was there. I think they truly believe that thats what they saw. But they didnt. This foe nom none that Bob Mcculloch explains there without the definitive they didnt is what the history of trials has probably diverted in some way from what actually happened. If you want to get a sense of how true this is take a look at what the folks put together over at pbs. It compares what several witnesses saw and their testimony before the grand jury to some key details from officer wilsons report. And there is essentially no unanimous consensus on any one detail. None. According to pbs analysis of 500 pages of witness testimony, more than 50 said, yes, Michael Brown did indeed hold his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. Only five witnesses said that brown reached towards his waist during the confrontation as wilson contended. Inconsistencies are going to happen. Theyre part of every criminal case that has eyewitness testimony, but somehow people are indicted, put in prison, put on death row based on eyewitness testimony. Joining me is david feige. Great to have you here. Indefensible. So when mcculloch gets up and says, look, you guys think there was this inconsistent story and we talked to witnesses and theres all these inconsistencies, done. Done. Yeah, he does. He says that and its kind of nonsensical. Why it is nonsensical . Because as you just pointed out, eyewitness testimony is seldom consistent. And by the way, seldom accurate. And more importantly, theres little correlation between certainty and accuracy. What do you mean by that . Someone says absolutely positive i saw exactly. Rudy giuliani may prefer operative football. But if youre ever watching a Football Game with a pal and you watched a contentious call and youre absolutely sure his feet were in. The other guy is absolutely sure his feet were out. Right. And we dont have instant replay or slow mo to see what happened. Without the high angle cameras, were left with im sure of one thing, youre sure with another. In this case part of what we have is we have one account ive read all of Dorian Johnsons testimony, all of Darren Wilsons testimony. The Darren Wilson testimony is quite compelling and partly because alone i think among people, hes a professional testifier before juries. Right. Thats one thing that police have going for them when their account is put up against someone else, right . Its a routine part of a Police Officers job. And by the way, theyre trained in doing so. Lets not forget. Most Police Officers are trained on how to testify. A skill that comes in handy when youre testifying in your own behalf. Theres a part where Darren Wilson walks people through him cycling through his use of four options. I could have used a flashlight, but it was in the wrong place, i could have used the baton but the angle what hes having is a series of mental states that are happening in three seconds. Three seconds . In an instant. So that to me just struck me as excellent story telling but not necessarily bearing any resemblance to the actual process thats happening at the time. Its entirely constructed by lawyers going through, hey, listen, man, having proffered witnesses to the grand jury, you go through this. Theyre going to want to know, why didnt you do this, why didnt you do that. Youre going to have to explain it. Of course its not an accurate representation of his mental state. Its almost impossible to do that. But what it is is a brilliant recreation of what a jury wants to hear so as to get to the conclusion you want them to get to. So whats the takeaway here . I feel like were into some new phase now and Bob Mcculloch in releasing all this is everyone is going to basically his feet were in, his feet were out, not to be glib about it, but the very high stakes version of that is what we have now, right . Right. In a way look, what he did is an astonishing thing. We shouldnt lose sight of that. He sought to avoid a politically uncomfortable decision by punting to the grand jury but in his press conference essentially revealed that this is what he thought was proper. And that he had his thumb on the scale the whole time. The abuse of hallowed notion of transparency. If youre going to wrap yourself in this very important idea, which is were going to let it all be free. Were going to make it open. Were going to let the information come out. When in fact what youre doing is, like i said, putting your thumb on the scale, thats a problem because, frankly its a perversion of the process. To come back to the fact that everyones in this ridiculous situation trying to construct their own trial based on this and divine what actually happened and who is reliable and who is not, what does that say about how the system works . Given that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, given that there are people on death row and life sentences based on eyewitness testimony, routinely some of which is proven false, how functional is the enterprise of the criminal Justice System . Not very. Whenever you dig deeply into a case, just how many flaws there are, just how deeply the systemic problems, you know, how deeply they run. What you just said there is key. Because in the particularities of the Darren Wilson case, because we dug that deeply, were seeing all the ugliness around the prosecution, right . Right. But if you took that same level to any case that you walk into, you would suddenly start finding the same stuff. You could show up for a trial in the bronx tomorrow and, if you spent the time, you could unpack all of these very same issues. David feige, that was really illuminating, thanks. In all our collective anxiousness to get where were going for thanksgiving, theres one thing you wont find yourself doing, hopefully. Thats this. The story behind this photo next. kids laughing you know i tried one of those bargain paper towels but i had to use so many sheets per spill the roll just disappeared. I knew i shouldve bought bounty bounty is 2x more absorbent and strong when wet. Just look how much longer bounty lasts versus one of those bargain brand towels. And thats a good deal. Bounty. 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Cresugh. Hite. Heartburn. Did someone say burn . Try alka seltzer reliefchews. They work just as fast and taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. Mmm. Amazing. Yeah, i get that a lot. Alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. Enjoy the relief. One of the most prestigious storied universities in the country, university founded by thomas jefferson, university of virginia, now finds itself in total cries. And this is in the wake of a bombshell investigative report alleging gang rape at one of its fraternities as well as a system at the university that has not come to grips with how to handle that or any of the other multiple instances of alleged Sexual Assault. In a Rolling Stone report published seven days ago opens with an absolutely horrific story of gang rape at the fraternity at the university of virginia in the fall of 2012. Indeed, it reads like a ritualized gang rape as frat initiation. The victim identified simply as jackie in the article eventually reported the incident to the head of the schools Sexual Misconduct board. And for reasons which well discuss momentarily jackie has not filed a criminal complaint. But in the more than two years since her assault two other women approach jackie relating gang rape incidents that occurred allegedly at the same fraternity and jackie relayed this information to the dean in may of 2014, but not until september of this year having learned of Rolling Stones probe into the story they placed the fraternity under investigation. Within days of the article being published the universitys president suspended all 62 fra tern tis and sororities on campus until january 9th pending the universitys next steps. They announced a zero tolerance policy for Sexual Assault. Its obviously an aspirational goal, director George Keith Martin said after the meeting. At this point its premature to say how it will be implemented. At that meeting they spoke of the schools responsibility to protect students from Sexual Violence. If we cant deliver on this fundamental duty, then we, all of us, we will have failed. Jackies experience should not have happened, and nothing like it should ever happen again. According to the Rolling Stone report, in the last Academic Year 30 students went to the dean about Sexual Assaults. Of those 38 only 9 resulted in complaints. Of those 4 resulted in Sexual Misconduct board hearings. According to the investigation, since 1998, 183 students have been expelled from uva for honor Code Violations like cheating on a test or stealing and yet no one has ever been expelled for Sexual Assault. Protests have erupted at uva following the Rolling Stone article. It is one of 86 schools undergoing a title 9 investigation for possible inadequate handling of Sexual Assault complaints by the department of justice. Joining me now laura dunn who fights for justice for survivors of sexual crimes. Ive now read the article multiple times. The details are so horrific that i think of myself as someone inclined to believe survivors and they were so terrible, i had to read it a few times to convince myself that it was true because it just almost so incomprehensible that this could be happening. Absolutely. I myself am a survivor of campus Sexual Assault. I had two men rape me when i was a freshman. I can tell you its hard for victims to believe that has happened to them, and then to go into a community that not only has no sympathy for what youve been through but actively discourages you from coming forward. It is hard to understand how it gets that horrible on a college campus, but it is happening every day. So we have a situation here where we have this woman who is sort of at the center of this, dean eramo. She is the one who handles this stuff and she, according to the article, is beloved by survivors. She offers people with these allegations a kind of choice of how they want to pursue what happens. Whats wrong with offering them choice . What is going wrong in this process such that no ones being held to account even though it seems in some ways the process is designed to be as compassionate as possible . Thats a great question. So this dean who is supposed to be an advocate for victims, she on one hand is trying to be victim centered in that victims are truly choosing what they want to do, but what shes not doing is whats required under title 9 guidance. You are to address their fears and say if youre afraid of retaliation, well protect you. You not only let people know about their options of going to the police but encourage and facilitate it. It is an active duty. Survivors do want justice, but they need to feel that they have a real shot at getting it and theyre not alone and it wont cost them more than the likelihood of them getting justice. What the dean wasnt doing is really saying this is wrong, we have your back, you can ask for justice and well make sure you get it. But you know from uvas own stats, they werent giving justice to victims. The ones that did come forward, there wasnt expulsions, massive investigations, she knew that going in. Here taps des the dean talkt why shouldnts have been expelled even when admitting guilt. Take a listen. Honestly, i feel in the condition text of an informal resolution meeting theres no advantage to admitting guilt, theres no need to admit guilt. Theyre not actually in a hearing proceeding. I feel if a person is willing to come forward in that setting and admit that they violated the policy when theres absolutely no advantage to do so, that that does deserve some consideration, that theyre willing to say that ive done something wrong and i recognize that and im willing to take my licks and deal with it, thats very important to me. I think that shows a level of understanding of what they did that i dont see in a hearing necessarily. This is the entire absurdity of the process and not just at uva, colleges across the i mean, what were talking about as alleged in the article are multiple men drugging, holding down a woman and brutally raping her and the way that its talked about in that context is like someone slighted someone or said a mean thing in a seminar. Well, the worst part is ive heard College Administrators across the country speak just like that about this issue. In many cases theyre like, oh, these are young men, theyre confused. Theyre just figuring out how sex works and maybe they made a mistake. What theyre forgetting about are the lives of women that are being actively destroyed in a horrific way that leads some people to take their own life. Even jackie was thinking about that at some point. Colleges arent understanding Sexual Violence at all. I read this, if im uva, you say, you want to pick on us, go look at columbia, go look at yale, penn state. Ill start naming universities. Then if you want to come to me and say go look at the department of defense, look at the issues theyve had, various religious orders. Look at a huge variety of institutions that seem to have the exact same problem. Like who is getting this right . So actually, one School System who has already been in trouble, the suny School System up in new york, they had been under title 9 investigation, they are doing things right, theyve collected a work group, theyre bringing in advocates, survivors, legal experts, not just administrators, and theyre trying to be on the forefront of taking this issue. In fact, theyre limiting their sanctions to only two for any type of gender violence and its suspension or expulsion. Suspension should be for the duration of the victims academic career so theyre not having to face their rapist. I do see some schools, normally after theyre in trouble, go out of their way to say were not going to make this mistake twice and were changing it. Its the Younger Generation influencing this change. Its remarkable that its a reform to have as a baseline for a finding of essentially guilty in a hearing as suspension for the duration of the victims time. Thank you very much. Thank you. Part of Darren Wilsons testimony about his nirl confront tags with Michael Brown who he later shot to death reads quote, i grabbed him and the only way i can describe it as is a 5yearold holding on to hulk hogan. She mixes it up. With nicen easy, you can shift a shade with confidence, and still look like your most amazing you. Go warmer, golder, stronger, even bolder. With our broadest spectrum of natural looking shades. You know what i love . Things never get boring. She always keeps me guessing. Go ahead, mix it up, spice it up, shift a shade with nicen easy. 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Keep in mind this is coming from a Police Officer just about the exact same height as brown though about 80 pounds lighter. And his description of the way brown reacted to the first shot fired in the car. He looked up at me and had the most intensive face. It looks like a demon, thats how angry he looked. Then the moment when he says Michael Brown turns back toward him after the first volley of shots. At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots like it was making him mad and looking straight through me like i wasnt even there. I wasnt even anything in his way. His description of Michael Brown makes him seem almost superhuman. Theres empirical evidence to suggest that this is how black people are perceived by white people. Many people see black kids as older than they are so theres a loss of innocence of black masculinity and other childhoods. On the other hand theres a lack of humanity ascribed to these people. You see both of these forces converging here. The lack of humanity and in that sense the denial of the innocence of this, you know, human being. Academic research actually backs that up including a series of studies just published which found that what the authors call superhumanization, the attribution of supernatural, extra sensory and magical mental and physical qualities to humans, white people so subconsciously magnify the powers or strengths of black people. That might explain why the Police Officer called in the shooting of 12yearold tamir rice in cleveland this weekend identified him as a 20yearold man. Now, lets assume for a second and i personally think its safe to assume that the two cops didnt show up on the scene intending to take the life of a 12yearold boy. But the fact that one of them saw him as a 20yearold may reflect the bias they have. Thats at the heart of policing, mike brown, the criminal Justice System that have unleashed protests. And the fact that that bias is sub conscience and ingrained is what makes it such a deep problem embedded in our society and brain architecture and what makes it so very lethal. Joining me jelani cobb from the institute of africanamerican studies and monifa bandlel, more moms rising. This seems like theres so many issues here but lets focus on this micro issue of the perception. I want to extend an assumption of good faith to Darren Wilson for a moment, that hes reporting accurately his perception. And in the case of the Police Officer who called in tamir rice has no reason to lie at this moment that he thinks hes 20. Its going to be found out, right . What do you do about that . Like, people are Walking Around with these biases, its been shown in a lab. What do you do about that sth. If i can do that, i can solve the system. We have a few minute minutes magical and superhuman. I as a white person expect you to have the powers. This is the green mile or the legend of bagger vance. 2008 barack obama. But i think that its important to recognize that this has also been a basis for actual policy. You remember the kind of concerns around cocaine was that it would make black men immune to pain and more prone to rape white women. And so, you know, and this is going back to the 1920s people were saying these kinds of things. In addition to that, theres the other side of this which is that there have been medical studies that show that people give blacks less effective pain killers or lower doses of pain killers because of the presumption that we are somehow or another just more capable of dealing with pain, yeah. And more capable of dealing with pain, more criminal, less human, i mean, all of this is happening in the context of missouri where africanamericans are 66 more likely to be pulled over by Law Enforcement than whites. And blacks and latinos are disproportionately searched after those stops even though paraphernalia is more likely to be found on whites. The answer to your question, we dont know, how do we deal with this . But its there and its creating an environment thats very sick and very dangerous. Its sick and dangerous, and i think it i dont know. Ive talked to a lot of cops and people who work in the criminal just system. And theres something about that work that also takes those biases and ramps them up in a lot of ways because a lot of times youre dealing with people at their worst. When youre showing up to a call as a Police Officer, a lot of times youre showing up to the worst moment in that persons life, least composed, most angry, most out of control. If youre in communities in which youre policing people of a different race, all youre doing is being exposed to them in a certain kind of context which seems to then have this reinforcing effect. So it all builds upon itself. Thats the argument for community policing, isnt it . If someone is engaged with institutions in the community, you dont necessarily only know the person who has committed an armed robbery. You know the person who owns the shop, maybe. You know the local pastor. The teachers in the school, the principals and so on. You get a more fully developed spectrum of the humanity of the people who live in this place. In the grand jury testimony, you have Darren Wilson talking about going to canfield apartments and saying its an antipolice area. Hes talking about psyching himself up to go into enemy territory. But ill push back a little bit. I dont know that, for example, the Police Response to students rioting when joe paterno was fired on penn states campus. Students filed into downtown. They knocked down light poles. They turned over the media news van. And they also threw rocks at Police Officers. And im not sure that Police Officers knew them personally, hung out in the cafeterias, you know, knew the kid from the commons, but still the response was very different than what you see in ferguson. Thats a really great point. I want to pose this question to someone who used to be a Police Officer right after this break. Stronger than peoples twice her size. Er was and that strength inspired his liquid muscle cleaner. It lifts tough dirt so you do less scrubbing. And its nozzle stops by itself. So less is wasted sure made grandma proud. Mr. Clean liquid muscle. Get to the terminal across town. Are all the green lights you . No. Its called grid iq. The 4 51 is leaving at 4 51. They cut the power. Itll fix itself. Powers back on. Quick thinking traffic lights and self correcting power grids make the world predictable. Thrillingly predictable. Ugh. Heartburn. Did someone say burn . Try alka seltzer reliefchews. They work just as fast and taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. Mmm. Amazing. Yeah, i get that a lot. Alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. Enjoy the relief. Twhat do i do . You need to catch the 4 10 huh . The Equipment Tracking system will get you to the loading dock. There should be a truck leaving now. I got it. Now jump off the bridge. What . In 3. 2. 1. Are you kidding me . Go. Right on time. Right now, over 20,000 trains are running reliably. We call that predictable. Thrillingly predictable. Hes just like you. Except. Hes in a commercial. He got hands like glue. And just bought. A 10,000 gallon salt water fish tank. Otherwise. He do what you do. Drives to work, listens to his music,. Gets caught up in a wirebased headphone situation. Uhmm. I know you seen that. So like you. He went and did something about it. And now he walks into work like a boss. Like who . You. There you go aj. Exclusively at verizon. Started using gain flings,fe their laundry smells more amazing than ever. sniff honey, isnt that the dogs towel . dog noise hey, mi towel, su towel. More scent plus oxi boost and febreze. Its our best gain ever were back. Im here with jelani cobb and monifa bandele. Joining me is peter moskos. Fantastic book. Did you know that black people have similar racial biases and when you test them on their racial perceptions of black and white, they also have racial bias. Or put them in a police uniform. Weve seen in amadou diallo and bell. Ramping up that bias. How do you untangle that . Its tough to untangle once youre on the job for a long time. Part of the problem is when you do recruit cops of any race from place wrs they dont police. But if your First Experience with africanamerican men is in a dangerous neighborhood somewhere, all your stereotypes are reconfirmed. Youre only seeing people on their worst days. No one ip vits you to weddings and graduations. Very easy to have stereotypes reconfirmed. Especially in times of danger, im a little hesitant to say theres some inherent situation where cops only shoot black people and not white people because lots of white people get shot, too. The numbers are disproportionate. The data on this is really spotty. Its wrong. The real number by their method should be 9 to 1, three years an outlier. But the homicide rate for that group is disproportionate. It wont be one to one. Were talking about unarmed people. The homicide rate being 15 to 1, lets remove those people from the equation. Lets simply talk about people who should not have been shot and you still wind up with that being a disproportionately black group. You talk about interactions with people on their worst day and it reconfirms ideas, but the difficulty here is that person is in a working class white neighborhood where theres a guy who maybe had too much to drink and comes home and punches his wife, you know, in the face. That is an individual drunk abuser. It doesnt relate to some broader correlation of who he is as part of his demographic category. But when we talk about black people all of a sudden it becomes this template that we apply. Mmhmm. We also want to throw in the stats around stop and frisk where were not dealing with any type of homicides or anything. You know. Theres a disproportionate stopping of africanamericans not only in new york city, across the country, but in that particular situation, many of them, there was no reason for the stop. This gets to a good point. Which are we talking about a psychological phenomenon in the mind of Police Officers and institutionally or are we talking about a policy . Stop and frisk just as much marijuana in parts of new york. Youre stopping more people. Thats a combination of the t two. A reform question. Are you working on the brain of the cop or are you working on what youre telling them to do on the street . The cop is answering calls, responding to robberies, suspects, thats the cops job. Too much to sort of say theres a grand psychological strings you can pull on that cop. Recruit better cops, train better cops, then worry about the real racism that exists in places like ferguson. But to try and take one example and put all of societys ills on one officer i think is it wont solve the problem. Its wrong to blame Darren Wilson, youre absolutely right because Darren Wilson only exists there at the behest of a system that wanted him to function in the way that he has. If this were a place where its not accidental that the electoral results are the way they are, the representation. The cities are funded by all these things. Lets not blame Darren Wilson for simply doing what he was put there to do. Lets talk about the entirety of this system which says that these people were there to be subjugated, they were there to be policed, not protected and served. This is a broader reflection of white supremacy. It almost seems too easy to say this is about Darren Wilsons individual problems. But i do want to talk about Darren Wilson and Police Officers and their lack of accountability and how anyone would behave when theyre basically can operate with impunity, right, because theyre never held accountable for what they do. Imagine if a doctor never got pulled from the board, you know, imagine if a lawyer was never censured. Thats what we see over and over again. Thats what the protests yesterday were about. Not just what happened, but how time and time again theres no recourse. Ironically cops feel victimized. Thats very ironic. But they are fired, they are departmentally so a lot of that is not seen. But cops would certainly never say theyre immune. But this is a key thats perceptionaly important to understanding this whole thing and how this has all played out. Thank you guys all. I just want to take a moment. Its been a sort of rough 48 hours in this country. Dispiriting, to say the least. I found myself with my soul kind of squeezed out watching what happened in ferguson monday night. It was really upsetting. And ive never looked forward to a thanksgiving like i am to this one. I just want to say thank you, the viewer, to watching. Thank you to all the people in my family who im going to be with, and my daughter who turns 3 on friday. For everyone to maybe take a moment at this thanksgiving to try to enlarge their empathetic qualities and faculties and to offer some grace to people across the table from them, across the social divide from them and to give thanks for what we do have. That is all in for this evening. Rachel maddow show starts now with steve kornacki. Thanks for that. Happy thanksgiving to you and your family. You too. Thanks to you at home for staying with us for the next hour. Rachel has the night off. Happy thanksgiving eve to all of you. At the height of the president ial race back in the summer of 2008, thencandidate