Transcripts For MSNBC The Cycle 20130708

A little bit different. He had the look of a human being who had been through an extremely traumatic experience and was traumatized from it. Almost like a state of shock that was continuing. The did he have a conversation with you where he discussed shrimping and the recourse of this event . Yes, he did. When was that . Objection, hearsay. Please approach. Lisa bloom, lets talk to you about whats going on. I can see where Thomas Roberts was going. Some of this testimony seems almost comical. This gym trainer said he was in to train for a year, yet he was terrible. Yet another parade of character witnesses pretending to be fact witnesses. Some are saying that since George Zimmerman used mma training three times a week, he should have used that instead of killing Trayvon Martin. This adds to the equation that George Zimmerman was not particularly skilled in mma. On a scale of one to ten, this gym owner gives him a one. When you call somebody to the stand, you say s look, im this persons friend, immediately i would think the jury would have to say, okay, youre clearly biased, were going to take you down a peg. Then when a person comes up there and says, he was terrible, he was a one on a scale of one to ten, what are you supposed to make of that as a juror . A lot of the witnesses weve heard in this case have been friends and family members. Theres always the potential for bias. I mean, this witness is coming across as somebody who has a very athletic background whos a professional in that area. Obviously the jury will take that with the weight they think is appropriate. All right. Lets go back to the testimony. Ive happened to have had a meeting with one of my other trainers that i saw. Happened to be yesterday. Had a very brief conversation with him. When i first mentioned what i was going to be coming to testify, you know, he didnt realize that this was the same person that we were referring to. Judge, im going to object again. Sustained. Let me hold on one second. I was asking you for you to describe mr. Zimmerman. I think you were going to give us a story about maybe how somebody else described him. Thats been objected to and sustained is, which means you cant tell us what the other person said. If you can tell us in your words. He was and i really dont like to use this type of terminology. Weve heard words that we normally dont use. Soft. Hes just physically soft. You know, hes not a he was an overweight, large man when he came to us but physically soft. He was predominantly fat. Not a lot of muscle. Not a lot of strength. A moment, your honor. All right. Lets take a moment and bring in the rest of our legal team today. Patrick murphy, paul henderson, and seema. Let me start with you having done criminal defense work. What is the strategy here in these witnesses and this testimony . The strategy here is to show with this witness, its particularly funny as well that theyre really just taking shots at George Zimmermans character, his strength, and showing that it was impossible that he was the aggressor. It was only probable that Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman. Thats whats happening right here. All right. You know what, lets take a listen back in and see whats happening now. Im sorry . Tell me the slogan of your gym, if you would. The slogan is learn without getting hit. Never call it anything about being the most complete fight gym in the world . Well, sometime weve got a rather large facility. Some time ago, you know, we had set up on our website because there were really no facilities around who had full weight Training Facilities and full fight Training Facilities. We put it as the most complete fight gym in the world at that point. That was accurate. Things have changed. Now there are a lot of gyms that have followed suit to what i do. Theyve updated their facilities now to have weights and whatnot as well. Speaking of other gyms, i understand mr. Zimmerman was going to yours for, i guess, somewhere you said between october of 2010 and the end of 2011. He took a couple months off and then came back . Basically. Okay. Do you know if at all he might have been going any place else, whether that was another gym that you mentioned or just working out at home or working out at, for example, some apartment complexes or communities have fitness centers, that sort of thing. Not to my knowledge. Weve got a very unusually complete facility, and it makes it really easy. We kind of give a lot of leeway of access to the facility for the members. So hes got access to a place that would be unlike any place else that would be available to him. So it wouldnt make a lot of sense for him to be going somewhere else, you know. He was a very loyal type of individual. So i dont foresee him going to some other facility. Would you have encouraged him to work out sort of on his own . I mean, as simple as going for a run on his own or lifting weights at home or anything like that. Generally, i encourage my students to come to as many training sessions as possible so they can have supervised instruction so that theyre not creating bad habits. Would you tell him not to work out alone . I would tell him to come in for more training sessions at our facility. The weight the defendant lost was in the ballpark of 90 pounds. I dont have an exact measurement. When he first started he was between 250 and 260 pounds. He would have lost, you know, between 50 to 80 pounds. Okay. And actually, i think you testified before that his body mass index was somewhere between 15 and 20 body fat. I dont have the exact amount because i didnt do a body fat analysis on him. But i would think that he probably had a little bit more body fat than that. Okay. Do you remember talking about somewhere between 16 and 20 . I remember hearing and looking at a deposition on that, and i saw the numbers on there. When i saw the numbers on there, it seemed a little odd to me because it seemed a little bit low for him. You certainly dont deny thats what you said, right . Im not arguing whether i said that or not. Okay. I guess lets talk about the first blow advantage type of thing. The first blow can be a very good advantage in a combat situation. Correct. And you would have taught, i guess, all of your students this fact. Well, im not going to start teaching somebody about strategy if they dont have the base of fundamentals. Would they have absorbed this or seen this or heard it talked about . Any chance of that . Is there a chance of that . Sure. You can turn on the tv and figure some things out. Thats not something that im going to teach a beginner as far as strategy goes if they dont have the basis of fundamentals. Its not a big advantage, though, if you dont execute it properly or well. Well, its not going to do anything for you if you dont do anything with it. Could put you in a worse position. Potentially. Leaves you open for a quick counterattack. Potentially. As far as grappling itself goes, you said that was actually what you started the defendant in, right . Correct. And i think you characterized it as sometimes when youre rolling around on the ground, a lot of things can happen to you. Correct. Scuffed up, marked, sometimes scraped. Depending what youre rolling around on, absolutely. And you talked about some techniques, bridging and shrimping. Those are designed to move you from an unfavorable position to a less unfavorable position. Correct. Theyre designed to effect that change of position as quickly as you can do it. Correct. Because when youre grappling, thats actually a fairly physically exhausting situation. Absolutely. And is that why they fight in, i guess, some we could call it short rounds, but obviously youve been a professional. You know sometimes even a threeminute round can seem like forever. A oneminute round can seem like an eternity when youre not in condition for it. And so the goal of some of those techniques that were taught, the shrimping, the bridging, is to take yourself from being as you put it in a perhaps if someone had you in a mounted situation, to be able to reverse that or at least get out of where you are. To get into a not quite as bad situation or reverse it. Okay. And you said you also taught submission, arm locks, and that sort of thing. Correct. Those are also designed to be applied in a grappling scenario, even perhaps if youre not able to do much of anything else. In other words, when you cant strike, sometimes you could use a different type of hold. Im not sure i understand what youre going at with this. Okay. If you cant you mentioned the person on the bottom sometimes its going to be hard to strike upward. Correct. Could you grab ahold of, for example, an arm and apply one of the grappling holds in lieu of being able to punch . Potentially, yes, depending on the position youre in. If youre in a mounted position, grabbing someones arm to attempt to submit them from simply grabbing their arm is not a particularly practical thing. Its not going to work. It wouldnt work well, but that would be a grappling maneuver, the arm lock. Well, the arm lock is not going to be applied. If youre on your back being mounted, you cant arm lock somebody from that position. So it wouldnt even be possible to do . Youd have to be extremely skilled, and you have to have theres a couple of obscure angles that could be implemented from, but youd have to be extremely skilled to do it. Would you say the defendant had the skill to do that . No way. And if he said he did it, you wouldnt believe him . No, absolutely not. As far as submitting somebody with an arm bar while hes being mounted, no. Okay. Lets talk about striking for our little while, if we could. The punching. In the muay thai, you get into the kicking and the knees and elbows. Punching you would teach a number of different strikes, right . The jab, the cross, the hook. Upper cuts. All of those . Yeah. You said he was working with a heavy bag. Would you ever do the sparring mitts with someone . If they dont know how to control their body to throw a punch properly without hurting their wrists with or elbows on a heavy bag and shadow boxing, putting them on focus mitts is im not going to do that with them. Is that a no . No. What weight were his gloves . He had bag gloves, which are going to be light as opposed to a 16ounce boxing glove or sparring glove. Generally an oldschool bag glove is probably four to six ounces. Okay. He would be youd have him wrist wrapped and everything like that. Correct. To help avoid hurting himself. Correct. The idea is you punch hard enough you should hurt the thing youre striking. Well f you dont have good support on your hands and you hit hard, you can hurt your hands and your wrists. And when you would have him do these workouts for, i think you said, like the first hour was the call else thennics and cardio. The second hour would be the Skill Development portion. Correct. So for this hour hes working on punching technique, he would be using all of those punches. What do you mean all those punches . Would you be having him work on just jabs or at the beginning, hes going to work on just footwork and then Structural Integrity and how to hold and posture his body. Then learn how to throw a jab. Once he gets proficiency with the jab, well bring in a straight right hand. Then well bring in a hook. Once he starts to get proficient with those to where hes not hurting himself, well start putting combinations of those together. And just like with grappling, sitting in there trying to throw nothing but punches for an entire minute, that can get exhausting quick. Without question. You mention teaching positioning of hands and feet. You would feature the hands in the guarded position, right . As opposed to the hands down guarded position . Let me put that better. Youre supposed to guard your face so you can peek over and see your target but if you get hit and we are back here with some analysis of the ongoing testimony here. Were hearing about George Zimmerman as a fighter or a weak fighter, someone who has been trained but not trained very well, although he lost some weight. Paul, what do you make of what this testimony does for the case . Well, theyre trying to show that he was soft and he was weak and he was nonathletic. Obviously, the prosecution is watching this and waiting for their opportunity to remind the jury because this is what i would be doing to remind them that at the end of the day, regardless of all of this, he still had minor injuries. His bruises were insignificant. The point of that is that he was not in a lifethreatening situation regardless of how out of shape he was. Because at the end of the day, he had the loaded gun. Hes the one that used the gun. Hes the one that ended up shooting and killing someone on that evening. So but thats the foundation theyre laying. Thats why theyre going over this fight scenario in detail with the jury. Patrick, respond to that. Because the entire point here is that the aggression of the individual defendant here in mr. Zimmerman cuts both ways. If hes quote unquote soft, he may have needed his gun for selfdefense. He may have had a more justified argument, his lawyers would say, to shoot. On the other hand, if hes done all this training and is any good at fighting, it cuts the other way and says, well, maybe you never needed your gun even if you face some real threat. Right. As you mentioned, the whole prosecutions theory is that George Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin. Trayvon martin was a 17yearold young man who had skittles and ice tea versus a 28yearold mma fighter with a. 9millimeter weapon. The defense is saying, no, this guy is soft, but its interesting because the defense witness here is really one, hes a little cocky. Two, hes somewhat hostile. Hes basically saying, well, this guy was soft, whatever. Yet, George Zimmerman trained three times a week for over a year, lost 50 to 80 pounds, was grappling. So to me, its pretty interesting that the defense even called this guy in because they probably didnt even need to at this point. Theyre trying to sew whatever doubts they can. Its interesting. Its testimony that has at times been absurd. Please stay with us. Were going to squeeze in a quick break and continue with full coverage of the trial. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. To prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, hes agreed to give it up. Thats today . [ male announcer ] well be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. I was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. And now ive got to take more pills. Yup. Another pill stop. Can i get my aleve back yet . For my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easyopen red arthritis cap. So wof the house . Hink its got a great kitchen, but did you see the School Rating . Oh, youre right. Hey babe, i got to go. Bye daddy . But what about when my parents visit . Ok. I just love this one. And its next to a park i love it i love it too. Heres our new house. Daddy youre not just looking for a house. Youre looking for a place for your life to happen. Zillow happy birthday its a painting easel the tides coming in this is my favorite one. Its upside down. Oh, sorry. woman vo it takes him places hes always wanted to go. Thats why we bought a subaru. announcer love. Its what makes a subaru, a subaru. Msnbcs craig melvin is at the courthouse in sanford. Craig, whats happening right now . Right now, i think you probably just saw the trainer there wrapped up, the gym owner wrapped up. Were on a 15minute recess. We expect to reconvene here at about 3 35. The defense at that point will be calling its ninth witness of the day. The witness that we just saw on the stand there, adam pollack, he was on the stand longer than any other witness weve had today was on the stand, north of 50 minutes. It was also the first time today we saw the defense pursue what appears to be their next line of de defense, if you will. They devoted the bulk of the day to playing that 911 tape weve heard so many times to different people who said they were familiar with George Zimmermans voice and having each of those folks say that was, in fact, George Zimmermans voice. It was interesting, perhaps noteworthy that chris serino on crossexamination said when they played that tape for George Zimmerman, George Zimmerman said, that doesnt sound anything like me. So but again, what we just experienced there was the next line of defense. Itll be interesting to see where the defense goes at 3 35 when they come back from break. All right. Craig melvin, thanks for that. Lets go back to msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom. Weve been dealing all day with the character issues. People coming up and saying who George Zimmerman was. Now we have somebody basically testifying George Zimmerman was a super wimp even though he took mma classes over and over and over. At what point would the state be able to open a door to talk about some of the other issues of George Zimmermans characters that have so far not been allowed in the battery against the cop, the Domestic Violence situation. How likely would it be for the state to find an avenue to bring in that sort of stuff . Thats an outstanding question. So technically today these have not been character witnesses, even though anybody watching the trial would think that they were. They were testifying about a specific issue in the trial. We heard a lot of witnesses, heard the 911 call. They said, oh, yeah, thats George Zimmerman. I know for sure thats George Zimmerman. Just as background they talked about their relationship with him, what a great guy he is, what a great friend. One of them talked about how he taught George Zimmerman how to tie a windsor knot on a tie. We heard about that, but technically they werent character evidence. Youre right. This is a great argument the prosecution can make. The defense went into this. It was character evidence. Now we should be able to bring in the negative stuff about George Zimmerman. So far the judge has not ruled that they can. Lisa, this is patrick murphy. Those six witnesses that the defense called up today that basically said this was not George Zimmerman, they all had a personal relationship. What effect do you think that has on a jury . Do you think theyll see through the system . Absolutely. They said it is George Zimmerman. We have seven defense witnesses, all of whom had a personal relationship with George Zimmerman, saying thats him screaming on the 911 call for help. We have three prosecution witnesses, all of whom which had a relationship with Trayvon Martin, who say its Trayvon Martin screaming out. We have one witness who says it sounds like a boy. That was a neighbor who didnt know either of the two men. Zimmerman himself said to the police, it doesnt sound like me. The defense argued today, well, thats the typical thing people say when they hear a recording of their voice. Oh, that doesnt sound like me. Thats their argument on that one. We know the screaming stops when the shot gets fired. We know that john goode, one of the witnesses, said he heard George Zimmerman screaming for help. So how the jury sorts all of that out, i dont know. They may ultimately say, you know, this 911 call, we cant sort it out, were going to put that piece of evidence aside. Lisa, i want to bring you back to the character question. Lets say the door is open for the prosecution to bring in the negative information and evidence about George Zimmerman. Doesnt that also have a reverberating effect . Doesnt that then give the defense an opportunity to bring in whatever negative issues, information, evidence that they have that they say they have about Trayvon Martin . Not necessarily. They can respond regarding zimmerman, but it doesnt necessarily mean they can bring in the negatives about Trayvon Martin. Its not an equal Playing Field with regard to talking about the victim and talking about the defendant. Listen, the prosecution may not want to bring in these prior negatives about George Zimmerman, the assault on the police officer, the restraining order by the exfiance. Ill tell you why. If they win this case, they dont want an argument on appeal. Thats a very touchy legal issue, bringing in prior bad acts. Generally the prosecution, i think, is going to want to stay away from it. All right, lisa. Stay right here. We have a lot of lawyers. I want to hear from everybody when we come back from this break whether they feel like the state has made their case. More about that and more from the George Zimmerman trial in a moment. Well also go live to the scene of that deadly plane crash in San Francisco. There are new details on how it happened. Thats after the break. Im a hard, hard worker every day. Im a hard, hard worker and im working every day. Im a hard, hard worker and im saving all my pay. Small businesses get up earlier and stay later. And to help all that hard work pay off, membership brings out millions of us on Small Business saturday and every day to make shopping small huge. This is what membership is. This is what membership does. Theres a new way to fight litter box odor. Introducing tidy cats with glade tough odor solutions. Two trusted names, one amazing product. Because all these whole grains arent healthy unless you actually eat them multigrain cheerios. Also available in delicious peanut butter. Healthy never tasted so sweet. This afternoon new details are emerging about that horrific plane crash over the weekend. Today we heard from First Responders to Asiana Airlines flight 214. It crash landed at San Francisco international, killing two people and injuries over 180 others, including 49 who have sustained serious injuries. Its so surreal. I feel like there was so much chaos going on and it was quiet. We spoke about this. There was it probably was very loud out there, but it was quiet. Everybody was doing what they were trained to do. Save lives. And just last hour ntsb investigators held a press conference. They gave some more information about the pilot who was at the helm. According to officials, the head pilot was experienced but only had about 43 hours of experience on a boeing 777. Now, they plan to interview all four pilots today. Nbcs tom costello is in San Francisco, where ntsb officials just wrapped up their press conference. Tom, what more did we learn about the cause of this terrible crash . Reporter i dont think we know a whole lot about the cause. I would caution us to remember that its going to take weeks, months to come up with an actual cause. One point of clarification. We dont know yet exactly who was at the controls. We believe the pilot who had only 43 hours in a 777 yet 10,000 hours of total experience, we believe he was at the controls, but the ntsb hasnt clarified that yet. Were not yet clear on whether he was the senior person in that cockpit or not. In other words, did the person who was training him have more total hours, have more seniority with the company, or did the pilot with fewer hours in the 777 have more seniority in the cockpit . You see, theres some nuance there thats important for us to understand. We dont have all the answers. The other thing thats important is this rate of descent is really alarming. When ive talked to veteran investigators and pilots over the last 24 hours, theyre stunned that this plane, according to ntsb chairman, dropped from 134 knots at 500 feet, which is already below the target speed for landing, dropping down to 103 knots. Its say stastonishing that pla hadnt yet stalled. We also know the stick shaker that the pilot holds between his knees was shaking at four seconds to tell them youre about to stall. But there doesnt appear to have been any other audio warnings from the Automatic Systems in the plane warning them that they were to slow. One reason for that is because when a pilot is approaching a runway, you automatically disengage the terrain avoidance awareness system. You do that because obviously youre about to meet the terrain. Youre coming in for a landing. You disengage that so it doesnt created constant warnings that are not meaningful at all. The question is, were there any other audible Warning Systems that were missed, any other audible Warning Systems or visual warnings on the flight popup display system that were missed. Those are still questions to be answered. You know, the bottom line about getting more about what happened in the cockpit, we wont have that today. They havent even talked to the crew members today. Theyre hoping to do that in the next 24 hours. It will be done in both english and korean. Can you explain to us just a little bit from an aviation standpoint, whats the problem with going too slow . I would almost think that the slower you bring in a complex vehicle, be it a car or plane, what have you, the slower it is, the easier it would be to land. It seems that is not the case at all. Whats the problem with going too slow here . Reporter you go to slow and you fall. Youve got to have lift and speed. If you dont have lift and speed, those are the two crucial dynamics to flying. If you dont have that, then youre going to simply sink. Obviously, they one of the most crucial mistakes anybody can make whos flying, one of the most fundamental things you learn in airmanship is maintain your speed. You dont let it drop. Dropping speed can be death. So the question is, how could this cockpit full of at least two experienced pilots and maybe four, we dont know if the other two pilots were in the cockpit at the time of the crash. How could experienced pilots allow something so fundamental to happen . How could you allow your speed to drop so far below the target speed of 137 knots . Thats got a lot of people scratching their heads. Were they distracted by something . Were they talking to each other . Did one presume that the other one was watching it and that one presume he was watching it . You see what the dynamics are involved here in the cockpit. Thats what theyre really going to be zeroing in on. All right. Tom costello, thanks for that update. The chaos continues to unfold in egypt. That tops the news cycle this monday. At least 51 are now confirmed dead after a weekend of clashes between the military and protesters angry about the removal of president morsi. The white house has been watching the events closely but has not yet laid out a specific plan to address the turmoil. The u. K. s Guardian Newspaper today released part two of its interview with nsa leaker Edward Snowden. Remember, this interview was conducted before anyone ever knew who Edward Snowden even was, so it doesnt respond to the backlash, it merely predicts it. Right now snowden is still believed to be holed up in the moscow airport searching for a place for asylum. Lawyers for Bradley Manning are asking a Court Martial judge to dismiss some of the charges against him, though its unclear which charges are being argued. Mannings trial is now in its sixth week. Hes accused of aiding the enemy by is up supplying wikileaks. Were going to continue coverage of the George Zimmerman trial. Well bring it to you live in a minute. Uhoh guess what day it is . . Guess what day it is huh. Anybody . Julie hey. Guess what day it is . . Ah come on, i know you can hear me. Mike Mike Mike Mike mike. What day is it mike . Ha ha ha ha ha ha leslie, guess what today is . Its hump day. Whoot whoot ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico . Id say happier than a camel on wednesday. Hump day yay get happy. Get geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. vo purina cat chow. 50 years of feeding great relationships. What are you guys doing . Having some fiber with new phillips fiber good gummies. Theyre fruity delicious just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber to help support regularity i want some. [ woman ] hop on over [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips. Welcome back. We are waiting for the George Zimmerman trial to return from recess. Lets check in with our legal team. We have patrick murphy, paul henderson, and seema ire. Paul, i want to start with you and broaden this out. People sometimes forget when theyre looking at a criminal trial like this that probably isnt good enough. If a jury walks away thinking this guy probably committed seconddegree murder or probably killed this person with no good reason and at least is eligible for manslaughter, that wont be good enough because even if they have any reasonable doubt, probably did it, but i reasonably doubt it for this or that reason, then their instructions at the end of this process will be to acquit. Talk us through that High Standard and why so many legal analysts have said that the prosecution, even at the conclusion of its case, had left quite a bit of reasonable doubt on the table. Well, you havent heard them connect the dots yet. Theyve laid the foundation. Obviously, the big elephant in the room is how theyre going to address the mens rea, which is the nefarious intent associated with zimmermans state of mind at the time of this incident. And obviously the overlay of the reasonable doubt is always the standard. So you know, one of the things that you say to a jury as a prosecutor is that that standard has not changed. Every criminal defendant that you see held accountable is held to that same standard. And that doesnt mean that there is absolutely no doubt. It means that it is just beyond a reasonable doubt that that interpretation of the facts is what is likely happened in this case. So, you know, understanding from a trial perspective and understanding from a prosecutorial perspective, beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean that it is insurmountable. There is a challenge, and there is some difficulties in this situation where we have an incident that occurred and only two people really know what happened on that evening. One of them is dead. The other one, at the very least, is a liar, as has been proven by his testimony. Its going to be interesting to me to see how the prosecution ties it all together to make his case and bring all of the circumstances evidence into focus to allow the jury to make the argument, to get beyond the reasonable doubt and hold zimmerman accountable. Thats what im waiting for. Thats what i want to see at the end when it comes time to hear a closing argument. Seema, i have a question for you, and it involves tracy martin, Trayvon Martins father. How likely is it that we could see the defense call tracy martin to the stand . If they were to do that, do you think that would be a good move for the defense . Lets look at what tracy martin would testify to. Tracy martin listened to the 911 call as we know from detective serino. Tracy martin said, no, thats not Trayvon Martin. So your question is a terrific one. Does the defense want to risk putting the father of the beloved victim on the stand and potentially facing a land mine like dr. Bao was, saying things tracy martin could say things in front of the jury, illicit emotions from the jury, sympathy from the jury that is unexpected. So the defense has to think about, has to weigh the options. Right now we have in evidence testimony from dr. Excuse me, detective serino that says tracy martin said it wasnt trayvon. Play it safe. Thats enough. Lock it down. I agree. Were going to go back into the trial in a second. Before we do, i want to whip around and see what with the attorneys who are here with us think about the states case. Has the prosecution made its case for murder two and for manslaughter . Patrick, you first. Sure. Well, toure, first on the charge of seconddegree murder. I dont feel like the prosecution has made that case. There is clearly a reasonable doubt whether or not zimmerman had the intent, the mens rea. But on the charge of manslaughter, the subsequent, the lesser charge or lesser crime here, i think that the prosecution when you look at all of their 39 witnesses that they called to date, that they have proved that George Zimmerman or i think they put the evidence out there that he could be convicted of that case. The fear is, though, is there one of the six jury members that have reasonable doubt . Thats such a hard burden for the prosecution to meet. Seema, what do you think . Have they made the case . Absolutely not. Toure, im drowning in reasonable doubt at this point. Forget about murder two. That shouldnt even go to the jury. If were talking about manslaughter, i could name right now 20 reasonable doubts, if we had the time, but we dont. So the prosecution has proven one thing, that George Zimmerman is not guilty. Unfortunately, thats what the verdict is going to be. Paul, what do you think . Is it manslaughter . Is it murder two . Look, i mean, youre always optimistic and hopeful. In a case like this where theres so much sentiment behind whatever this verdict is going to be, im clearly rooting for the prosecution. I believe theyve used every tool they had in their tool shed. It really is just going to come down to how theyre going to tie those pieces together and the pitch they make at the end in their closing to give to the jury. Im hopeful and im optimistic that the jury understands and sees their argument and holds zimmerman accountable. If that gets them to murder two, then i will be clapping and celebrating for justice with the family. Lisa bloom, what do you think . Did the state make their case for murder two or for manslaughter . Well, im not hoping for either side. Im just following the evidence. Although, i will say, paul henderson, i love it when you use words like mens rea. It just means intent. I actually think having followed the evidence thus far and were still in the defense case and i still have an open mind for what they may put on, but i may surprise you by saying i think they put on a good case for murder two. It seems very clear to me that when zimmerman pulled the trigger, he intended to take the life of Trayvon Martin. So we have intent. The only question is whether its selfdefense or not. And the other part of murder two is ill will, hostility, hatred. Well, with you hear the words on the Nonemergency Police call, calling him an ahole and fing punk, he clearly was very hostile to Trayvon Martin, a total stranger to him. Just seeing him walking while black down the street, every time he called about a suspicious person in the neighborhood before this, it was about an africanamerican person. So i think the prosecution could put all of that together. They still have to rebut the selfdefense. They do that by establishing all the inconsistencies in zimmermans testimony. One of the biggest ones that jumps out at me is that zimmermans gun was holstered inside his pants behind him, and yet he claims he was down on his back with Trayvon Martin on top of him and Trayvon Martin saw the gun and reached for the gun. So unless Trayvon Martin had xray vision and could see through his body to a gun that was behind him, i dont know how that works. So i think the prosecution has made a pretty good case for murder two. Having said that, as i said, im still going to hear the defense out. Lisa bloom, very interesting. Not what i thought you would say. Of course, when you talk about George Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin through the heart, clearly hes trying to kill him and not just get him off of him with a shot. We have more lawyers here than an ava party. Arie is also an attorney. I want to hear your thoughts. Has the prosecution made its case . Look, i think when you look at these issues as a journalist or someone covering the case and you see all this information accr accrue, you want justice to be done, and you see what feels like a tremendous injustice in the killing of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed minor. As a lawyer, though, once weve now seen the end of the prosecutions argument, they still get to make their closiei statement, but they have to carry this burden across. As a lawyer, i dont see how they have met their burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was a deliberate killing with malice, a seconddegree murder under florida law. I do not think theyve carried that burden at all. Thats my legal view of the case. When i say that, what i mean by that is, have they proven it beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence presented to the jury . This jury does not know everything about mr. Zimmermans past and will not. So based on the evidence presented, i do not think theyve connected those dots and defeated the doubts. The manslaughter goes to the justification and the murkiness of this conflict. Thats something where i think there will be a lot more debate. Thats a serious charge that carries up to 15 years. The last thing ill say is the reason why so many people have followed this case closely is because we have a Justice System that in many parts of america does not value the lives of black men and women in the same way that it values and investigates a similar or exactly the same situation for white americans. Thats something we could spend a lot more time on. My view of that and my concern for that, however, does not alter the legal and precise judgment you have to make in a case like this where the prosecution hasnt met the burden to date. Very interesting. Reasonable people with ideas all over the map. Well be right back with more from the George Zimmerman trial. T tends to stay at rest. 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Gov pretend to learn your risk. Were still following the George Zimmerman trial. Lisa, i want to bring you back in here. A question that i asked seema earlier, what do you think how likely is it that the defense will, one, call tracy martin, Trayvon Martins father, and two, what would that mean . Would you advise them to do that . You know, that seema ire is a very good trial lawyer and i think she made a very good argument. You dont need to put him on now. You heard from two witnesses who told you that he heard the recording and he said, its not my son. I mean, why put him on . Maybe the defense will do that just for the sake of completeness, but its really not necessary at this point. Okay, were going back to the trial. Tracy martin has been called. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony that you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . I dpop. You may proceed. Good afternoon, sir. Good afternoon. State your name, please. Tracy benjamin martin. And of course, youre Trayvon Martins father . Yes. Youve been here for the testimony throughout the trial, correct . Correct. Including today, where we had a couple of officers testifying about an event where you had gone to meet investigator chris sbeeno at the Sanford Police department. Yes. Do you remember the event itself, having gone down there . Yes. Did you have a conversation with officer serino about why he wanted you down at the station . Initially, we are going down to the Police Department to make sure that he had verified that trayvon had been identified. It couldnter it couldnter it couldnt serino didnt bring me to the station, i actually went to the station myself. With miss green . Correct. And at some point, you did go back to his Office Cubicle area and listened to some tapes, correct . Correct. My understanding is that youd listened to a number of tapes, one of which was the tape that were identifying as the lauer 911 call, correct . Yes. And he did play that for you . Yes. And were you listening to it as he played it for you . Yes. Understand that it was difficult to listen to, it included the shot that ended your sons life, correct . Yes. At the end of that tape, do you recall officer serino asking you whether or not you could identify your sons voice . Not those exact words, but something to that nature, yes. Do you recall the words, as best you can recall, that he used . As best as i recall, after he played the tape, he basically just said, do you recognize the voice . And what was your response . My response was, simply, i didnt tell him that i didnt i didnt tell him, no, that wasnt trayvon, i kind of i think the chairs had wheels on them and i kind of pushed away from the table and just kind of shook my head and said, i cant tell. So your words were, i cant tell. Something to that effect. But i never said that, no, that wasnt my sons voice. You heard officer serino testify that you said no, correct . Correct. And you heard officer singleton also testify that she was about eight or ten feet and she heard you say no, or an indication that you acknowledged that it was not trayvons voice, is that correct . Before officer singleton even testified the first time officer singleton testified, that was the first time ive ever seen her. I had no idea that she was even in the vicinity. You didnt notice her there, correct . No. But you heard her testify that she heard you, correct . Yes, i heard her testify. I heard her testify to that, but i didnt see her in the room. Did you ever say to anyone did you ever ask to hear the tape a second time . Not at that not at that moment, no. Did you ever tell anybody that you had listened to a cleaned up version of the tape and were then able to identify the voice on it . What do you mean, cleaned up version . Im asking you, sir. To my knowledge, the tape that i listened to is the same tape thats circulating. Thats the only tape i knew about. I have no knowledge of a cleaned up version. So the question then is, did you ever tell anybody, your attorney or anybody else i never told anyone that i listened to a cleaned up version of the tape. Okay. Or an enhanced version . I have no knowledge of an enhanced version. Did you ever tell sabrina fulton, your exwife, that you had listened to the tape at officer serinos desk. I hadnt told her, no. Was there any reason why you didnt give her that information . There was a lot of stuff going on. We had just buried our son. A lot of emotions and, you know, you just dont think of every little detail that youve, through. Obviously, it was a tragic and still is a tragic time for us. So just to answer your question, did i tell miss fulton that i listened to the tape, no, i didnt. Now, you were at the Mayors Office when the tape was played for the entire family, correct . Correct. And you were there as well, listening to the tape . Yes. Did you ever take an opportunity to tell miss fulton or any of the other family members, before the tape was played, what they were going to hear . No, i didnt. Is there any reason why you didnt advise them of that . Im sure they were aware of what we were doing at the Mayors Office, so there was no reason for me to confirm the fact that we were there to listen to the tape. And was it at that time, in the room with everybody else, when what did you say about the tape when you listened to it that time in the Mayors Office . What do you mean, what did i say . Did you acknowledge anything about the tape to anybody . After listening after listening to the tape, for maybe 20 times, i said it was i knew that it was trayvons voice. I didnt direct that towards any family members. As a matter of fact, i think the family members had started. Lea leaving the room. It was too much for them. They couldnt take it. And i just decided to sit there and listen to it. Had you listened to the tape between the time that officer serino played it for you on about the 28th of february and about the 16th of march, when you heard it in the Mayors Office . No. I listened to it and detective serinos cubicle it and then again in the Mayors Office. No time in between . No. Can i have a moment, your honor . Yes, you may. Thank you, your honor, no more questions. Thank you, cross . Mr. Martin, even at this time, is it hard for you to believe that your son is not on earth or living . Its very difficult to believe that trayvons not living. As i said over and over, he was my best friend in life and to have him gone is a tragedy. Okay. You were asked two areas that i want to cover with you that mr. Omara asked you about. The 911 call that you heard or the calls, the recordings that you heard at spd or Sanford Police department. You remember going there . Yes. Now, in terms of the context,