>> i don't know, josh, we keep sitting around the table, talking about donald trump like he is a winner. the last time he won something, it was a big win, but it was 2016. since 2016, he's lost every single election he's been within a mile of. so, are we getting duped by trump telling us over and over, i am a winner, i am a winner, when the numbers don't bear that out. >> i don't know if he is going to win this election. i do think that he is clearly the preference within the party, and people who pretend these now are kind of, they are throwing a penny in a well and wishing for a candidate. i do think that the anti trump case, this is trump, he's the guy, it's not an especially affirmative case for joe biden, even though a lot of people hate trump. there's still a lot of people that love him. a lot of people showed up when -- one in 2020 as well, or whirling to pretend though. it does sound like he has a certain amount of people, like
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