Wolfson, editor of the new republic frankly for, Politico White House reporter Carrie Rudolph brown making her debut, and our old hand Bloomberg White house correspondent hans nichol. There isnt much overlap between critics of george w. Bush and barack obama unless you are talking counterterrorism. Members of code pink, a group founded during the Bush Administration to protest the policies of waterboard and detention made their voices heard at yesterdays confirmation hearing for john brennan as cia director. They wont even Tell Congress what country we are killing children in. Please senator feinstein. If you could please expedite the removal. More important than the children of pakistan and yemen . Are they more important . Do your job the hearing serve as a public discussion of the most controversial counterterrorism policies that began under president george w. Bush and, in part, have continued and expanded under president obama. Brennans defense of the secrecy surrounding the administrations most questionable program, targeted assassinations using drone aircraft, was as opaque as the program itself. What we need to do is optimize transparency on these issues, but at the same time optimize secrecy and the protection of our National Security. I dont think that its one or the other. Its trying to optimize both of them. Some senators, including ron widen and angus king, pushed brennan to explain the legal at and justification for assassinating american citizens abroad. Every american has the right to know when their government believes its allowed to kill them. I understand you cant have cocommanders in chief, but having the executive being the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, and the executioner all in one is very contrary to traditions and the laws of this country. Brennan argued essentially that the ends justify the means. The decision that is are made are to take actions so that we prevent a future action so we protect american lives. That is an inherently executive branch function to determine and the commander in chief and the chief executive has the responsibility to protect the welfare, wellbeing of american citizens. While little seems to stand in the way of brennan becoming the next director of the cia, the hearings proved that americas top intelligence gatherers are still grappling with the rationale behind some of the countrys most controversial counterterrorism policies. Indeed, even regarding tactic that is have long since been discontinued, brennan was able to offer little clarity. My question is this. In your opinion, does waterboarding constitute torture . The attorney general has referred to waterboarding as torture. Many people have referred to it as torture. Do you have a personal opinion as to whether water board issing torture . I have a personal opinion that waterboarding is rep rehencible and something that should not be done. As to the ultimate question, whether or not we are moving away from american ideals relating to justice and civil liberties, the argument is far from settled. In the wall street journal today john yu, the Justice Department official that handled interrogation techniques during the Bush Administration writes, rather than capture terrorists, which produces the most valuable intelligence on al qaeda, mr. Obama has relied almost exclusively on drone attacks, but those deaths from the sky violate personal liberty far more than the waterboarding of three Al Qaeda Leaders ever did. Franklin, having watched the hearing or having seen it or seen excerpts of it just now, do you think the country thinks differently about the president and our intelligence gathering in this country . Isnt it a bit rich to see congress posturing like this when theyve done such a terrible job of oversight over the course of the last couple of years . Theyre the ones with the hands on the spiget theoretically. I dont have a problem with drones. I think drones represent an advance in the history of warfare that its also a bit rich to see john yu pilot criticisms. Its very clear that one of the promises that the Obama Administration made when they came in is they would take the Obama Policies and run them through a filter where they would legitimatize them, they would add protections that would enhance civil liberties. Theyve let these programs continue in nontransparent ways. Theyve done little to establish rationale regulations of them, very clear rules that would make us feel better that they were doing a better job of taking this tremendous power that they have and using it in the most responsible way. Well, i think one of the things that was really remarkable on the hearing yesterday, howard, was the gray the sort of opacity, and the fact that john brennan himself didnt know if he would call waterboarding torture. I think he did know. I didnt think he was going to say. They very much are still grappling. The playbook is still being written. So its sort of the ethics around it are still were still sort of thinking about it, and in the meantime drone strikes continue today. There was a drone strike in pakistan that killed seven and injured six others. Its as if the warfare has gotten far ahead of where we actually are in terms of our moral compass. There was an extraordinary New York Times front page story a couple of months back that basically detailed president obama going over a kill list where he would personally get the recommendations about when which targets just is which targets could be filled if we found them and him sort of strike aing few off and checking boxes next to the ones that he was comfortable with, and i was sort of expecting all my democratic friends, all of my friends on the left p to howl and say what an outrage this was. I could only imagine if this is a front page story about george bush and dick cheney going over a kill list late at night. Democrats have mostly given the president a pass on this, and republicans are mostly okay with the policy of killing terrorists with drones. As a result, as a country, we are allowing this to happen. People are basically okay with it. Whats interesting to me is there is very little bipartisanship in washington. Wonderful people can both attest. David brooks, ill quote him, basically making the arg utility for what obama is doing. He writes, it would be nice machiavelli writes if a political leader could practice the christian virtues like charity, mercy, and gentleness and still provide for his people. The virtuous leader is compelled to do hard things. The leader who does good things cannot always be good himself. Sometimes bad acts produce good outcomes. Carrie. I think its even yesterday at the hearing senators were not necessarily taking issue with the use of drones themselves. A lot of it was about the secrecy and the lack of transparency that the white house and this administration, past administrations, a lot of pentup frustration was on display yesterday. You have a post9 11 world where a lot of these programs happen in secret. Theres not even an acknowledgment of whether a memo exists or doesnt exist. A lot of that pentup frustration came out yesterday, and it wasnt so much. I mean, there are questions being raised about the program itself, but even if you ask folks like even franklin. Frank said the use of drones themselves is not necessarily the biggest point of contention. Its whether we as a public know exactly what the government is doing. Well, i would argue that, lets say there was greater transparency. I dont think the discussion and the debate goes away. Then you really get to the nugget of the argument. Is it okay to do bad things to get bad people . To howards point, i think the article came out after the election. After the election youll hear more criticism from democrats. If you dont hear the next two years, are you going to hear leading intu a primary. We have no idea who is going to get in the field, and i know were criticized for talking about the next election, but this will be an issue that wi we ferret out in iowa, new hampshire. Everyone will have to be on record saying if you are going to run for the democratic primary nomination, where do you stand on drone attacks . Remember, obama was to the right of Hillary Clinton during the xanl for going into pakistan and not he john mccain. On pakistan he was, right. This shouldnt be that big of a surprise that he is hawkish. This has been one of the central tensions, but sort of aspects of the obama presidency. I hear what youre saying. At the same time, you know, he came into office under the banner of no longer will there be black sites. We are closing gitmo. Extraordinary rendition. These kind of practices put in place by george w. Bush. That is going to be were going to close that chapter in american history. What this reveals is that that chapter is far from being closed. Its still being written. We are still arguing based on the movie zero dark thirty whether or not enhanced interrogation, torture, helped us get osama bin laden, and you hear conflicting reports about whether or not that was true. If you ask the average person, does interrogation enhance interrogation, does torture work . Youll get ten different anz. We are as a country very much grappling with these questions and trying to sort of move our way through the maze, and i think at the end of the day the chief executive determines that is he going to err on the side of the safety of the American People. If there is a judgment call to be made, he is going to say i will do what i need to do to protect this country, and i think george bush would have said that, and its pretty clear that barack obama is saying that. Franklin, im curious to know what you think of this. I think one of the reasons the president hasnt been pushed on this as much as he perhaps could have been is because the left has given i wont say a pass, but theyve leaned back. Theyve given him a pass. And i was trying to sort of better understand why that might be, and i think its twofold. One is if the left decides that these tactics are bad, it is then a reput yags of president obama and what he stands for. Then if the left decides these tactics are acceptable, then its coming to terms with the fact that we are doing perhaps terrible, bad things, unconstitutional things in the name of National Security. Drone attacks have also allowed us to wind down wars in afghanistan and iraq. Thief allowed us to prosecute al qaeda in a way that has doesnt require us putting boots on the ground. Lead footprint. Its the lead footprint. Its consistent with the overall obama gastalt that the left is comfortable with. It also buys the left political space on iraq and afghanistan. Obama i mean, granted, the country is exhausted by these wars, but there havent been any traditional attack that is you see levelled against a democrat for winding down a war and for its allowed him to project strength, and its brought him an incredible amount of political space. In terms of the sort of hoops, intellectual hoops that you have to jump through, if you are a member of the Progressive Left and president obama represented a sea change in terms of National Security policy, i will go back to what the economist wrote. As mr. Obamas second Term National team takes shape, the same dmrema will confront them as face mr. Bush all those years ago. Is the country made safer when enemies are killed or when theyre taken alive. Can either course be taken while preserving the privacy of law that makes america america. Thats the long gameshort game. Drone attacks increase radicalism on the ground. Theres the fact that drone attacks have such ease of use, and we are using them not just to get leadership. Were using them on an everyday basis. Part of it has to do with just that the distance between the actual warfare itself and the people who are pulling the trigger, and you want there to be some regulation. You want there to be some check on executive power there. Not just some guy in the basement of the white house with a kill list. With a kill list. Im not sure he is in the basement of the white house. I think he is probably in the roosevelt room, but what do i know . The point about brennan is there was a ton of power concentrated in one guy and will continue to be concentrated. If the Drone Program continues to be under the ages of the cia and not go to defense, then john brennan remains the man. We have to take a break, but when we come back, yesterday attorney general eric holder reiterated the white houses plans and hopes for comprehensive gun reform. The administrations plan, which i helped the Vice President and others to develop, in which the president announced last month includes a series of 23 executive actions. The Justice Department and other federal agencies are working to implement. Along with a range of legislative proposal that is weve called upon congress to pass and to pass without delay. Emphasis on delay. But are there incentives for lawmakers to wait . We will discuss the scenarios next on now. [ male announcer ] why do more emergency workers everywhere trust duracell. . . Duralock power preserve. Locks in power for up to 10 years in storage. Now. Guaranteed. Duracell with duralock. Trusted everywhere. Duracell with duralock. Do you guys ride . Well. No. Sometimes, yeah. Yes. Well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here we got great coverage. Its not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. I doubt anyone will even notice. Leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. Now, thats progressive. Call or click today. Aarrggh a talking car. But ill tell you what impresses me. A talking train. This ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what its carrying, while using less fuel. Delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. After all, whats the point of talking if you dont have something important to say . Dont know what id do id have nothing to prove [ male announcer ] zales is the diamond store. Save 30 percent off an amazing selection storewide, now through sunday. Bottom line is this, people, we have a lot of work to do. What weve learned over the last four years, at least what i have learned over the last four years, is that it wont be smooth, it wont be simple, there will be frustrations, there will be times where you guys are mad at me, and ill occasionally read about it, and as a byproduct of doing that good work and keeping that focus i would expect that nancy pelosi is going to be speaker again pretty soon. Speaking at the House Democratic policy retreat in virginia yesterday president obama looked into his crystal ball predicting the democrats will take back control of the house pretty soon. The reality of democrats seizing the Lower Chamber is a bit more sober. House democrats need to pick up 17 seats to retake the majority, and according to politico, just four republican encome bents represent districts that lean democratic while 15 democrats will be defending their seats in areas that tilt republican. Redistricting has not helped. The redrawn districts in 2010 left 109 republican seats more secure compared with just 67 democratic seats that were made safer. The 2012 election bore the fruit of those changes. The Cook Political Report found that while House Republicans won just 49 of the popular vote, they took 54 of house seats. The political reality, however, may matter more than the actual numbers. Jeremy peters writes in the New York TimesHouse Democrats are starting to appreciate a new political reality that few of them expected. They matter. With democrats now in control of 200 seats and republicans often sharply split on big issues like spending and taxes, democrats democratic votes have been decisive in getting major legislation through the house. Given this republican elders have to wonder. How strong is a majority if it is fractured . Carrie, it is a very interesting byproduct of the intraparty skism that is happening. Jerry peters talks about arguments missed the parties over the fiscal debate, but surely those same arguments will come to the fore as the house tackles immigration or gun control, presume it gets to the house. The democrats and the house now matter. Nancy pelosi has some amount. Shes not wielding the speakers gavel, but she is not someone to be marginalized. I covered the Health Care Law in 2009 and 2010, and she was sort of masterful in terms of eating her conference together on extraordinarily divisive issue, but the message is that, you know, Vice President biden, that obama delivered yesterday at the retreat was a political message. It was this is going to be tough, but you gee have to stick together. The politics on gun control, in particular, is not what it was in 1994, and you need to sort of rethink the way these politics are and really buck up and i think it was speaking directly to the fact that there are a lot of regional differences in the democratic caucus, but if they stick together, they may be able to do something. Lets be clear. The president is saying pretty soon. That wasnt a prediction. That was a punt. Pretty soon in political years doesnt mean anything. That means actually that he doesnt think theyre going to win it in two years. The president wants to say were going to take back the house and do it in two years. Thats a prediction. The president didnt say that. I was out there with the president. The best thing about that was seeing the different lawmakers and what they were wearing. Nancy pelosi, of course, in her peach jacket. Jim mcdermott clearly crush it in a soccer jersey, one of the sweaty ones. It was well done. Mcdermott on the back. Im glad you threw in it was a white jersey. I dont know if it was a seattle team. I dont know what their colors are. I should know that. It looked like a Bayern Munich engineers where i. Let me talk about the differences. He is relying. The president got landmark legislation through in the first term, but there was very little half dolphing to nancy pelosi. There is something to be said for being many the mud of congress and making it work, making it push it across the threshold. I wonder if you think, hans, this relationship based upon, you know, the recent outreach is going to be changed for the second term. So its not real outreach, right . He just went to the retreat. When he starts playing golf with them on the regular basis, which is the consistent thing you hear from House Democrats on why theyre not brought in, and when theyre brought into the conversation earlier, not just at the end when theyre forced take a tough vote, thats when well know it changed. You dont want to ding the president too much for not having too many ice cream socials, but there hasnt been a great deal of most of the terms have not been quite dictated on missouri, but the president has told them what theyre going to do. It hasnt mattered with the House Democrats. The House Democrats have assumed the old mantle of the House Republicans. They are well organized. Theres very little disent. Theyre a welloiled machine even without obama p, you know, playing the back nine with them. Does he have a better or worse relationship with Senate Democrats . We look at it as fallen in life with the proposals that the president hadz laid out on gun control. Harry reid is in charge of that in the senate and has not fall news 10 lock step with the white house priorities, howard. Its easier when are you in the minority to sort of just go along. When you are in the majority, its a little bit of a greater responsibility. Harry reid has to make the decision whether or not to bring these bills to the floor. There are marginal members in his caucus that might not want to take these issues up. He is responsible for them in some sense. I do believe the mayor is very much involved in this issue. Weve been spending a lot of time lobbying members of congress, members of the senate on both republicans and democrats. I do believe that the senate is going to take these issues up. I do believe harry reid is going to bring comprehensive gun bill to the floor. Maybe in different pieces. It may be one package. That will be his decision. I do believe something is going to pass in a bipartisan way out of the senate. You saw politico reporting there was a bipartisan group, republicans and democrats from rural and urban states who are working on a comprehensive package on a background checks. I thinkure going to see something get through the senate, and then i think you will have House Republicans not the majority of them. Some number. 20, 30, 40. Who will be feeling intense pressure from their districts on this issue. They are going to go to their speaker and their leadership and say, look, if we dont get a volt on this issue, i will not be back, and if im not back, you will not be speaker. So we may not need 150 or 170 republicans to vote for this. Where he we may not even need 100, but i need you, mr. Speaker, to at least allow a vote on the bipartisan bill that has come out of the senate, or i wont be here and you wont be here. Does that mean, carrie, we are going to see a final nail in the coffin on the hastert rule . It seems like john boehner did it on he did it on the debt ceiling. He did it on sandy aid. Could it be could his days be numbered . After the fiscal cliff. He promised he wouldnt do it again. He told his members. He has said that he wont do it again, but theres going to be pressure on a ton of issues, and, you know, for him its going to be a personal decision. In some ways thats how its framed in washington whether it comes down to whether or not there will be a continuation of the hastert rule. Its about speakership. In terms of lets say its a rosier picture than we thought it would be on gun safety laws. I guess how much of that rosyness carries through on immigration. It could really go either way, i think. There is still a debate over the path to sit sflenship. As well as on immigration frankly. Im not down there counting votes, and howard might be you put a number 30, 40 House Republicans that would be for some sort of gun control. On immigration it almost seems like the numbers are closer to 100. Especially in some of the conservative districts. Thats really whats changed. Yes, you know, conservatives the republicans probably are to the right side in terms of public polling on gun control. You look at immigration. Its miserable for them. Thats where you can see the potential just demographically where they really feel like they need to move. Immigration i would suspect and i think this is the view of the Speakers Office and essential the view in the white house, you have a better prospect of an immigration bill than comprehensive gun bill. The gun bill will be piecemeal, as howard was mentioning. Next up, energy reform. Im going to be bullish because its friday. Prime minister we will examine the growing backlash against bushs brain and other symptoms of a party in disarray just ahead. At tyco integrated security, we consider ourselves business optimizers. How . By building custom Security Solutions that integrate video, access control, fire and intrusion protection. 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Northeast is already feeling a massive and possibly record breaking winter storm. The weather channels eric fish ser in boston. Whats the latest . Hi there, alex. As weve been broadcasting really things will pick up this afternoon, deteriorate, and well see incredible snow rates here in the city. Theyve asked everyone to be off the roads by noon. Were past that point, so hopefully travel has ceased. All mass transit here in the city, is all suspended at 3 30 this afternoon, and we dont expect it to sdart again until monday. For a lot of people here with over two feet of snow possible in downtown boston, youre going to be inside or at least youre going to be stuck without any travel through today, through tomorrow, and maybe into sunday as well. Hopefully a lot of folks have a good book. I did talk to a couple of people out here, and thief had their flights canceled. They are trapped in the city for at least a couple of days. They said the Airlines Told them maybe monday we can get you out of town. Theyve had over 3,000 cancellations. A significant storm in a place that does see big snowstorms, but this one may land in the top five, if want the top spot for the city of boston. Alex, back to you. The weather channels eric fisher. Thank you. Stay warm. Howard wolfson, deputy mayor of new york, you have assured me during the break that you got this one. We are prepared. The mayor is prepared. Everybody in City Government is prepared. The worlds greatest snowfighting force is ready and deployed. We dont expect to get as much snow as they are expecting in boston. Its going to begin heavily around 5 00 tonight and go through overnight. Weve got 250,000 tons of salt ready to be deployed. Thats a lot of salt. Its a lot of salt. Weve got 2,200 trucks that are going to be out on the streets deploying that salt. Making sure that your commute home will be relatively smooth. Its going to be a lot of snow, and people will have to deal with that when it comes and not everything will be perfect, but we are absolutely ready and prepared and we will do our typical great job. If the deputy mayor thing doesnt work out, may i suggest meteorologist . Absolutely. Youre very good at it. Youre very good at it. Coming after the break, former clintoniam is a man without a network, but morris isnt the only fongs newser who has been shown the door. Can the rightwing purge the insdeerables . And maybe a solution to the grand old problems. Thats next on now. [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness . By the armful . By the barrelful . The carful . How about. By the bowlful . Campbells soups give you nutrition, energy, and can help you keep a healthy weight. Campbells. Its amazing what soup can do. With multiple lacerations to the wing and a fractured beak. Surgery was successful, but he will be in a cast until it is fully healed, possibly several months. 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Still bushs brain has been facing heat since his super pact said they would strain the tea from the party, and determine that less in the new strategy was met with mixed reviews. Karl rove is a total loser. Money given to him might as well be thrown down the drain, wrote the donald. Radio host mark levin also weighed in. Karl rove, let me tell you something. Youre despised by the grassroots, and let me tell your donors something. Stop wasting your money. Never one to sit on the sidelines, the rushinator said some of the strongarm tactics were backfiring. The newspaper article about karl roves intention is only serving to unite the tea party in ways even now it hasnt been. Right now there is a unity and an energy maybe just short of a rebirth going on. Thats right. A rebirth of the tea party. As a reminder, a few months ago karl rove was the evil architect trying to take down president obama. Way, way, way back in September ObamaCampaign Manager jim messina wrote to supporters, we recently learned karl rove is rounding up the most powerful republican donors to give all theyve got to beat barack obama. Fast forward to the present, and karl rove is the evil architect trying to take down fellow republicans. In a new campaign pitch, Iowa Tea Party favorite and senate wannebe steve king, friend, im under attack and i urgently need your help to fight back. Karl rove and his army have launch aid crusade against me. The backlash on the right sent rove skamperring back for a tea party apology tour. What crossroads has been doing is spending a lot of money on behalf of tea party candidates. Weve spent over 30 million on behalf of Tea Party Senate candidates and over 25 million for Tea Party House candidates. But the intraparty purge seems far from over. One high profile republican strategist, who refused to be named in order to avoid inflaming the party he wants so silence, says there is a deliberate effort by Party Leaders to lib marginalize the cranks, haters, and bigots. There has to be a lot of cleaning out. Can we ask you who that republican strategist was. It is notable he wants to remain anonymous. Not just because he wants to be effective in the clearing of the underbrush, but also because look what happens when you suggest there are some crazies in the Republican Party. Its going to be hard for what rove is doing, and i think Rush Limbaugh has a point in terms of what the affect of this might be. You are already seeing in iowa, steve king who is a member of congress, and he wants to run for the senate, and theres a lot of quotes out there that are not going to play well in a general election, but already he is trying to capitalize on this, raise money off of what karl rove he is their first target. Im i mean, two cycles ago the National RepublicansSenatorial Committee played a part in trying to deal with senate primaries. It didnt work out so well. I think im correct in thinking that Christine Odonnell came out of that process because mike haskell was favored. You know, Republican Base in delaware didnt like that. They chose Christine Odonnell. That didnt work out so well. Last cycle they chose not to get involved in primaries, and they still had a challenge. They chose not to get involved with todd akin until the last minute when they then gave todd akin money. The conservatives are learning that its fun and effective to vilify karl rove. You can get a lot of mileage out of that. I think one reason it wont work is that establishment candidates are already well funded. High roller republicans give money to them, and karl rove piling on more high roller money into those campaigns buys them a little bet more advertising, but advertising is not going to be what decides these primaries. You think the tea party is out of the cage . It cannot be put down. Any efforts otherwise nobody puts the tea party the tea party in the corner. Yeah, dirty dancing wroish. I thought it was pretty striking, right, karl rove this week in the New York Times reports, you know, the super pact is readying its engines and days later karl rove is out there with a white board, howard, pointing at just how much money. You need a white board. Without even asking for one. And its super pact. Super pacts are fun. I can attest. There is there is fear. I mean, from the establishment Republican Base not base, but moderate republicans who want to move the party forward. Very much so. The republicans know pretty much that if they had gotten all of the candidates that they wanted out of primaries in the last couple of cycles, they would number control of the senate. I mean, they were losing senate seats that they would have won because they got the wrong party, the more extreme the wrong candidate out of the primary, and they wanted to avoigt that going forward. The question is whether or not theyll be able to do it and they know very well that not only does a todd akin sort of result in a loss in missouri, but even worse, he infects other races around the country, and every other republican then has to get will get asked questions about, well, todd akin said this about rape. What do you believe . So the problem is not just in that particular state or that particular dedicate. It infects the entire party, and in some sense thats what theyre trying to deal with. They do not want the party defined by the todd akins. Its bad enough that theyre going to lose their own seats and directs, but they cant have them branding the entire in the entire party. You know, this is going to be a fight between the two wings of the party. This is what happens when you suffer a loss. Now two consecutive losses in president ial contests. The circular fire squads form, and it gets ugly. Let me read, hans, a quote from steve deace. In that order sfwloosh i might reverse them. Youre from bloomberg. Moving on. Steve deace writes how do beat karl rove in his own game. There is now an out in the open civil war within the Republican Party, and most of the grassroots patriots i talk to are just fine with that. The gop establishment is so hated by its own base that increasingly more and more of its grassroots have milk toast john boehner type of republican. I dont know how different the fight is this time versus when it was like rockefeller versus nixon, when it was, like when you are goldwater and rockefeller. I dont know the traditional split in the Republican Party between true bleefrz, evenitis las vegasests. These splits have been there. Whats fun now is theres so much money piling in. God help us when karl rove is in rockefeller. Yes, exactly. And i would say, you know, howard, we talked about this a little bit. The parallel in terms of democrats 20 years ago and the formation of the dlc, the democratic leadership committee, the sort of policies of bill clinton, its different. I mean, there was a sense that it would come together and change on policy, and i will read this. Bonnie jindal quote. It has caused republicans to take this very, very seriously. I dont think its just a marketing change. I dont think its just cosmetic changes. Its going to require some serious changes, not in principles, but in the way we talk and act. Wait. Its going to its not cosmetic, but its only cosmetic. You are so right. In the 1980s, the 1907s and 1980s, the Democratic Party was engaged in these kind of fudz sxshgt left versus the right. Nobody knew how that would end up. What eventually solved it was a set of policy proposals that move the party to the center and that most of the people in the party could embrace, and that eventually the American People came to embrace when they elected bill clinton. You have not seen the republican version of the dlc. You have not seen republican think tanks generating ideas that are designed to appeal to americans in the center. What you are seeing is a lot of marketing strategies, a lot of imageing wars, but not a war of ideas, and thats really in some sense what the republicans need to do. Theyre not going to take advice from me, but they need to have their kind of dlc moment. They need to have a debate around ideas. Not just one candidate being, you know, socalled crazier than another or more to the right of the other, but a real battle around ideas to appeal to the center. I mean, i would say when you talk about the outside groups that are helping the ball push the ball forward, you have jim demint at the heritage foundation. He is not exactly going to be a voice for sort of moderate reform within the party, right, carrie . No. He is taking that over. You know, to further the work he was doing in the senate, which was, you know, among some of the most conservative ideas and efforts around, so, yeah, the heritage foundation, which came off of the individual mandate for health care. You know, good two decades ago. Ing that became the foundation of health care. That was the heritage foundation. I dont think we would see that same kind of idea coming out underneath. Conservatives have attached themselves. The establishment of the party attached itself to the tea party movement, and its very hard to untether yourself from that movement. Especially when, as you point out, the objections are kind of cosmetic. Theyre aesthetic. Theyre not disagreeing with them about core substance. The dlc wing of the Democratic Party and the liberal wing was it was profound. Its like coyote ugly. They have to chew their own arm off to get out of bed with that. Theyve gone from dirty dancing to coyote ugly. Oh, wow. We have to leave it there. Howard wolfson has to go. Going to snow. Has to shovel notice snoes. I am going to be shoveling snow right now. Howard wolfson, deputy mayor, thank you as always for joining us. Happy to be with you. An invaluable resource. Republicans zigzag on the sequester. We will discuss the gops budget cut flipflop when chris hayes joins the panel just ahead. dog larry,larry,larrryyy. Why take exercise so seriously,when it can be fun . Pushups or sprints . 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New york times columnist paul krugman is not a fan of the automatic budget cuts known as the sequester, and apparently bill clinton agrees. The debt problem canting solved right now by conventional austerity measures, and thats why paul krugman is right when he keeps talking about all these everybody thats tried austerity in a time of no growth has wound up cutting revenues even more than they cut spending because you just get into the downward spiral and drag the country back into recession. To cut or not to cut when we go up now with chris hayes. [ male announcer ] pearls. Hairbands. And now hot pink toes. Seems tough for a tough dog like duke. But when it has anything to do with gwen, hes putty in her hands. For a love this strong, dukes family only feeds him iams. Compared to other leading brands, it has 50 more animal protein. To help keep his body as strong as a love that can endure anything. Even every fashion trend. Iams. Keep love strong. Ive watched them kick this can down the road. Its enough of it. Its time to act. 20 years. Roughly the amount of time that john boehner has been in congress. The republicans dooms day message on spending rarely, if ever, mentions the serious damage done to the nations credit cart during the bush years. Here to talk sequester and our neverending debtmageddon crisis. Heres our suggest called up now. Chris, you have paul krugman on your show this weekend. Indeed. He add slow indicates that we need to keep kicking the can down the road because the alternative, which is austerity, is a failure in europe and would be an adject it would be kicking the can is the most underrated policy in all of washington. If the alternative to kicking the can down the road is drinking a can full of poison, its much better to kick the can down the road. Theres this desire on the part of some commentators and the part of special interests to impose pain. There is this entire protestant story that has been written about the final crisis, which is that we were way ward, we were bad and sinful, and we let things get loose and out of control, and now we have to all these poor and low income people getting their food stamps. Snoo people lying on mortgages, everything went crazy, and now we to put ourselves in the virtuous restraint of cuts and austerity. Its an extremely moralist narrative, but it doesnt make any economic sense. It doesnt make any political sense, right. There is no constituency for it other than a relatively small group of extremely powerful and well heeled interests who would like to see austerity imposed. Whats been interesting, franklin, is that the argument over sec west rags. Now the republicans are saying you cannot make these defense cuts because were going to lose one million jobs, and its like light bulb. These cuts cost jobs. Why does that logic not flow to the other side . So rich when the defense lobbyists come into the white house and are teaming up with the on mccains side of the argument, which is historically the case. Defense spending has been one of the drivers of the economy. Why that logic . Its called weaponized p. Doesnt prevail down the road . Im sure its not very hard to figure out why that is. I mean, those are the parts of the government that theyre trying to destroy. The other part is i think we have a tend si to view the fights that were having with the budget over fights that are between austerity on one hand, but thats not the way the political coalitions work out. If you are consistent on it, you shouldnt want any tax hikes either, right . The fight is over peoples policies. People have policies that have priorities because the intl groups and collisions thief assembled politically because of their idealogical principles, right, who these things will benefit, it and then they mask them in the language of what is cyclically appropriate or inappropriate, right . Even on sequestration theyve changed their mind. Now sequestration, we might do it. I love when they bring this up during the hagel hearing and they talk about sequestration, and they go the witness and talking about what a disaster sequestration would be for the defense budget. If you just arrived from another country or mars you would be like who are the monsters who came up with the sequestration idea . Who could have possibly voted for this thing . It is the people sitting that crafted it. The ironies speak like a birthday cake. Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. We are out of time. Can we kick the can . We are going to kick the can down the road. Do not forget to catch chris and paul krugman this weekend. Up is on tomorrow and every weekend and sundays with host at 8 00 a. M. Eastern. Chris hayes, thank you, as always, and thanks to the rest of our panel. Franklin, carrie, and hans. That is all for now. Ill see you back here monday at noon eastern, 9 00 a. M. Pacific when im joined by ari, jonathan, jake, and lee gallagher. If you are snowed in or not, ill be doing my best impression of Lawrence Odonnell tonight when i guest host the last word at 10 00 p. M. Eastern. P Andrea Mitchell reports is next. Hey, our salads. [ bop ] [ bop ] [ bop ] you can do that all you want, i dont like v8 juice. [ male announcer ] how about v8 vfusion. A full serving of vegetables, a full serving of fruit. But what you taste is the fruit. So even you. Couldve had a v8. This is stay off the roads. Stay home. Let the public works crews do their job over the next