Is it . Were supposed to do nothing because the constitution upholds the right to bear arms. Well, we have easy access to semiautomatic weapons in this country. Is it a good society that does this, allows it . I ask the questions knowing the only way we can end this is with the votes of politicians from deer hunting country, not from the big cities. Will they be there . Will politicians who fear the gun lobby bear up under the strain of attack against any measure, no matter how small, to curb the power of the gun owners . The question tonight, what should and, most importantly, can be done to stop this kind of gun violence . And if nothing will work, say it. Go ahead, say nothing can be done. I want to hear an american elected official tonight or any night say what happened on friday in newtown, connecticut, is just part of living in the free society of america. Chuck todd is nbcs chief White House Correspondent and political director, and Chris Cillizza is managing editor of postpolitics. Com. Gentlemen, i know we all saw this. This is what we used to call the topic sentence. I think this was the most telling, actionoriented piece of what the president said last night up in connecticut. Lets listen to it now. In the coming weeks, i will use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens from Law Enforcement to Mental Health professionals to parents and educators in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this. Because what choice do we have . We cant accept events like this as routine. Are we really prepared to say that were powerless in the face of such carnage . That the politics are too hard . Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year after year is somehow the price of our freedom . Chuck todd, you know, gun control was probably not in many politicians songbook going into this coming year, but now it is. Reality, reality checks, reality bites. Do you think the president has given any sign he will do something about gun safety in this next term . Well, if he wants to that speech was a powerful speech, it was galvanizing, it was remorseful, it mourned those precious little kids that were lost, but its that galvanizing part, and if hes going to make that speech live in history pretty high up in his presidency, then he has to. I mean, hes all but pledged saying hes going to tackle this. The question is how do you do it . How do you navigate the politics of this . Its not easy. He himself acknowledged theres not one answer, but he also said that doesnt mean you dont try. So, look, theyre still trying to put this together here. Theyre not going to say they have an exact idea of what this is going to look like. It could be a commission. How do you engage the nra . Do you try to bring them into the conversation . Yeah. Along with hollywood, along with the Law Enforcement, along with educators. Do you try to have one of those types of conversations at first just to sort of see if theres any Common Ground here . And then where do you go . I think honestly theyre still in the beginning stages of this and of trying to figure it out. But i think that he seemed if he wants that speech to mean anything, he has to do something real. You know, climate change, we can argue all the time about whether its manmade, but this is manmade, guns. This is a unique culture. I love so much about america. The freedom, the individualism, the cowboy attitude, but why is it legal to own a gun . Anybody can buy one, a semiautomatic, call it what you want. The bottom line is you can pull the trigger and the bullets keep pumping out. Any imbecile can do it. Society decided that was considered carrying a musket. That was just like a guy that took ten minutes to load up a musket. Part of a militia. So a bunch of guys together could defend their community. Thats been transformed to anybody can own a fricking bazooka and walk around. It has become tied up with this idea of land of the free. That we have the right to do these things. Now, i would say, you mention in the ammunition used in this shooting was one of these high round ammunitions. From 19 and also explosive bullets. From 1994 to 2004, those sorts anything that carried more than ten rounds was banned under the assault weapons act. The question is what does a comprehensive plan look like . Chuck is right, the president you cant give a speech like that and then just say, okay, fiscal cliff or just move he has to do something. The question is does he do something around these high round ammunition holders . Does he include something about Mental Health in there . Sentencing . Is it an attempt to be a more comprehensive approach that some folks who the Michael Bloombergs will not be happy with. They dont want they want gun control, not sort of this broad Mental Health, sentencing, and a little bit on ammunition, but that, to chucks point, chris, may be whats able to get through. I really want to get to your strengths here. Both of you guys are obama watchers. You got a closer look at him. I think, chuck, you really do because youre with his people all day, you have great sources. Have you been able to measure how deep that emotion that we see on the president s face, the tears he had to fight back last friday, is he willing to say i was going to do immigration, i think i will push that back six months. I know i got the iranian threat, the nuclear threat, i have to deal with that, thats front burner, but i have to jam this baby into my agenda. Did you have a sense hes willing to go for gun control as part of his legacy as i think you suggested. First of all, yes, i do believe he believes this has got to become a priority. Jay carney today, for what its worth, was fighting back. Hes not going to order what his priorities are, but, no, the bottom line is this is a window. You know you only have a finite window sometimes when there are policy fights that are sort of thrown at your doorstep whether you wanted it or not, and you have to deal with it. So i think he knows this is something he has to tackle early, First Six Months type of thing next year kind of early. So, no, i sense that. But the problem is what is it . And i go you know, the issue with guns, chris, and i hear what youre saying, but this you want to understand the divide between Rural America and suburban and urban america, it is this issue of guns. Its not a policy. It turns never into a policy debate. As chris hinted at, this turns into an ideological and then people lose their sort of they lose their they lose their grounding in this, and it becomes an irrational back and forth on guns. You cannot have nobody will have this sort of, well, geez, were having somebody come on planes, lets start more security. People will rationally have, oh, yeah, we need to have more security going on airplanes. They will have a rational conversation about that. It is hard to get the two sides on the gun debate to have this rational for some reason finding a rational middle ground has been impossible to have in the gun issue, and, frankly, as a parent, i find it very frustrating and disturbing to watch. Its like why i get it. I get it. I get it rural i get the culture. You cant tell me theres not a middle ground. If we could go the people who are concerned about safety, chris, and the people are concerned about reasonable american life. Is it a threat, a real threat, to the gun owner, not just the gun owner who believes in hunting. Thats the easy part. Hunters go dont with these kind of rifles. The Second Amendment person who believes they face a threat down the road from the government. How do you talk to that person and say, you know, the kind of caliber weapon you have is not going to make much difference in terms of your personal ability to resist the government at some point. They will say it does matter. I want to have a multiround, i want to have a semiautomatic to defend myself against the government when it comes and that sort of ideological reality which is connected with the tea party and all the guys who had to come to all the rallies, they had to bring guns to the rallies. This is tied into ideology, not just hunting licenses. The nra gets, i think the nra spends the most money on the one side of the issue, so they get credit blame, depending where you come down on all this. But somehow the debate chucks point about the frustration with the lack of any middle ground possible when Charlton Heston said youre going to have to take this gun out of my cold, dead hand. Thats not a compromising position. And thats the problem, chris. Its become this slippery slope argument, which is any i hate that phrase. I hate the slippery slope. Okay. Lets say assault weapons or these high caliber these high pack rounds, if they do that, what will they do next . Find a way. Lets be honest about it. Can we be honest about it . You cant have a discussion you know what the problem is . There is a sliver of American People who are antigun. They would like to go around the country and collect every gun. Lets be honest, they are there, they live in big cities, in apartments, they think the police will be there to protect them. Then you live out in kansas, out someplace out in the country, and you know the police wont be there for a half hour no matter how hard you yell, how many 911s you call. You do have to defend yourself, right . Absolutely. They have attitudes. It is country mouse versus city mouse. Bloomberg, who i really respect, the mayor of new york, says something, im sure the guy in reading, pennsylvania, says okay, big east coaster, tell me how to live. He is the wrong person, the absolutely wrong person to be the face of the gun control movement. It really is because of just what youre pointing out. What does that guy in new york city and this is where if you have this conversation if you lived in new york city, you understand his mindset of not wanting 9 Million People armed. Yeah. On new york city. But if what you just pointed out about living in Rural America, whether its kansas, arkansas, you name it, its different. Youre right. You know, i know of incidents where it takes authorities half an hour to come and show up someplace, so, of course, you have got to defend yourself. They come and put the chalk around the body. In all fairness, when it sounds like im a big antihunter guy, i like to trap shoot and all that. Here is the thing, i had my kid with a daisy rifle because i thought it would be one thing to do, shoot at milk bottles. Im not against guns, but the important, weird thing about this, chris, you first, the men out there my uncle bill, these people are members of gun clubs. My brother bruce, they pack their own bullet, they would never commit a crime and they would never hurt anybody, but their ideological conviction on this, this slippery slope idea protects some of the bad people out there and allows the nutty people to get guns. And thats the problem. I have an uncle who is in a fish and gaming club in connecticut close to newtown. He does it because its social and theyre harmless people. He likes to go out, have a few beers, and talk to his buddies. Its like bowling. Playing basketball for me. Its cultural. But we have to get beyond it. Chuck is right, the idea that its either we take every gun away or we do nothing to restrict this, the idea we cant have a reasonable debate in this country where theres manchin may have started this morning saying hes chuck, you said this conversation isnt going anywhere unless it includes the Second Amendment concerned people. I think you have to have them involved. Not only that, i do think we got you know, we go to the whole common sense question about, you know, should somebody be able to shoot off 30 rounds in 10 seconds, whatever it is, but we got to have the cultural conversation. We got to have this culture of violence. I think the nra is more likely to come to the table if you have hollywood there, the video gamemakers, and, by the way, parents have to wake up here. If your kid for three hours is disappearing in the basement doing nothing but playing halo, you may want to make sure your kid doesnt have a problem. Wellsaid. Every time i go to the movies, there will be six previews, one unbelievably worse than the other. I dont minds the cars turning upside down, but the shooting. Thank you, chuck todd. Thank you, Chris Cillizza. Coming up, president obama promised action, but what can washington do to tackle the unholy trinity of guns, mental illness, and the culture of violence. We will get to the latest on the investigation in connecticut and what may have driven this gunman to such violent and deadly action. If theres a motive that makes any sense. And president obama and House Speaker john boehner met again, and theres renewed optimism on the fiscal cliff negotiations. Do you believe it . Optimism . We can use that for christmas. Let me finish with why im hopeful, really am, about the fiscal cliff. , this, of course, is hardball, the place for politics. [ loud party sounds ] hi, im ensure clear. Clear, huh . Im not juice or fancy water. Ive got nine grams of protein. Thats three times more than me [ female announcer ] ensure clear. Nine grams protein. Zero fat. In blueberry pomegranate and peach. I just served my motherinlaw your chicken noodle soup but she loved it so much. I told her it was homemade. Everyone tells a little white lie now and then. But now she wants my recipe [ clears his throat ] [ softly ] shes right behind me isnt she . [ male announcer ] progresso. You gotta taste this soup. Youre looking at pictures from fairfield, connecticut, of course, where mourners have gathered for a candlelight vigil to remember the victims of the Newtown School shooting, of course. As the country mourns the loss of 26 lives lost at Sandy Hook Elementary School last friday, the conversation moves to washington, of course, and what can be done. Here i am, and its the question of what can be done to prevent this unholy trinity of factors. Guns, obviously. These are semiautomatics. Mental illness, the guy was mentally ill apparently. And the whole culture of violence and video games, especially where you can get hooked on this relentless shooting and killing in terms of Virtual Reality becomes in some horrible cases with reality. With me are connecticut congressman john larson and former arkansas senator blanche lincoln. Im very impressed by the way governor malloy has been handling this and all you fellows and women. Outstanding. What is your sense of how it fits together and what you as a lawmaker youre a leader of the caucus and a leader in the house. When you put it all together, this isnt just this is like John Hinckley who wanted to do something to impress jodie foster. You know, weve had political assassins who have done terrible things for the middle east like Sirhan Sirhan or Lee Harvey Oswald did it because hes in love with castro. Theres all kinds of motives, but then you get into the mentally ill people who are moved by the things your kids or my kids might say they rough you up, but they dont really change you, like video games. How do we put it together and do something as americans . Well, i think its a must, and let me say, chris, that youre right, both governor malloy has been outstanding, the first responders, the community. The support from all across the nation, the calls that are coming in for members. Something has changed here. The slaughter of the innocents and the frailty of these kids. The poignancy of it all i think is resonating in a way that usually doesnt inside the beltway, and i think youre right that it has to be a comprehensive approach that certainly includes guns and Mental Health and violence, and theres no shortage of responses that we have. The president s call, and he was both solemn but also very committed last night in speaking both as a father first and also as the leader of our country. I do expect that were going to see leadership from him, but leadership has to come from the United States congress as well, and for us not to act, because we all know that this will happen again, and so not to act is to be complicit in the next thing that happens, and its going to require comprehensive support, and we should include the nra in this discussion and we should include in a discussion the whole idea of the culture. Im sure blanche can add an awful lot to that coming from arkansas, but clearly in connecticut were hurting, but as the president said last night, were inspired by these people there. Now, lets take that inspiration and actually do something. The article today in the washington post, you know, this is quickly, weve got to move. Let me go to the senator. It seems to me the country, i dont want to involve the city mouse country mouse stuff, i want to figure out what we have in common here. Arkansas, every state, once you get out of the state, once you get past philadelphia into reading, pennsylvania, its the west. You have to go all the way to seattle to get to Something Like the east coast again. The heartland of america is gun country. Its progun rights, its Second Amendment country. Not just for hunting. The right to protect yourself against your government if you have to do it. You represent a state like that. How could a state like arkansas see its way to Something Like gun safety when it comes to semiautomatics . First and foremost, chris, i have to say to the people of connecticut and to those families that have suffered such a tremendous tragedy that we have them in our thoughts and prayers, and i think thats where we start. I think all of us, whether were in the heartland or on one coast or the other, we need to coalesce around that. We need to coalesce around our feelings, our thoughts, our prayers for those who have suffered this tragedy. And then as we do that, we find our Common Ground, and it has to be coming together, but its got to be coming together with trust and respect, not from two extremes. Its got to be coming only in america many things are possible, and theyre all good. But some things in america its only in america. They dont have shoot em ups like this around the world. They dont have people with easy access to semiautomatic weapons, click, click, click, that can kill 26 people in ten minutes. What do we do about our american situation . These are problems man made in this country. Laws that were passed by men. Should they be changed . Just as the president said, we have got to begin the conversation, and the conversation begins around a table with everyone there. I did go back to arkansas and run for reelection in 1994 having voted for the ban on assault weapons, and i got hit pretty hard, but one of the ways whats the knock against you for doing it . Whats it sound like . Well, it sounds like im trying to take away weapons or guns from, you know, those who want why do they need semiautomatics to do hunting . What do they need it for . The point was when i went home, i went to the nra meetings, and i visited theres some people there that didnt want to listen, but there were those who did, and when i talked about what it was we were doing, simply banning the Domestic Production of these weapons, they could still own them and sell them, they could still purchase one, they just couldnt purchase a new one because we were banning the Domestic Production. We had already banned importation of them under bush one. So, you know, there are reasonable people there, and when you go to them with the trust and respect to have a conversation, then, you know, i have worked with nra you are courageous in voting for it. Lets listen to joe manchin, an nra member. He told Joe Scarborough why he thinks we ought to talk about this. Never before have we seen our babies slaughtered. Its never happened in america that i can recall, ever seeing this type of carnage. Anybody, anybody that lives in america, anybody thats a proud gun owner, anybody thats a proud member of the nra, theyre also proud parents, proud grandparents, they understand. This has changed where we go from here. Im going to speak to all my colleagues. Im going to reach out to all of my friends at the nra. Ill go over and sit down with them and say how can we take the dialogue to a different level . How can we sit down and make sure were moving and not be afraid that someone is going to attack our freedoms and our rights. Let me go back to mr. Larson. This is a real trouble here because it always goes back to freedom and the fact we love this freedom we feel. Adlai stevenson once said freedom in this country is something you can actually feel. It just feels great, the sense of being a grownup and being able to go out and get in the car and go going anywhere you want in this country. Theres so much freedom we dont even know how to think about it, its like swimming in an ocean, and then we realize some people because of mental problems or because theyre bad guys or they want to make more money than they should, are committing crimes or blowing up people because theyre mad at the world or mad at their mother. I guess once you shoot your mother, the rest is different, theres a different world out there. You cant say a deterrent is going to work. You cant say to the guy youre going to the gas chamber. Hes going to kill his mother, he doesnt care about the gas chamber or anything. So what do we do . We know certainly that doing nothing doesnt work either, and we only continue this whole culture of violence. You know, chris, the president was clear on this, too, and its something that should be mentioned, and you know this because you know philadelphia and pittsburgh so well and the east coast. Every day almost in our cities and areas, kids are involved in driveby shootings, innocent kids, but it doesnt get reported, doesnt get magnified like this does, and its important that we bring that to the forefront as well. That kind of always gets swept under the carpet in all of this. But when you get people like Mike Thompson calling me, a vietnam veteran, a gun owner, and someone, as blanche said, who wants to start this conversation with all the sportsmens alliance, how about all of our veterans, bringing them into the conversation. Absolutely. Especially those who are overseas and understand what its like and have seen the carnage firsthand and knows the lethality of these weapons and why this is so important. I think we can have a common sense dialogue about this and come together and do something for the sake of kids. If this were a terrorist attack, chris, we would not leave a single stone unturned to do everything in our power comprehensively to prevent this from happening again. Thats got to happen. My question is, its not very liberal a statement, how do we know it wont happen again five minutes from now . What do we know . Same guy shows up with the same amount of firepower, three semiautomatic weapons, hundreds and hundreds of bullets. He walks in the door and shoots whoever is in the way, heads towards the kids and starts shooting until the cops arrive. What stops that happening anywhere . Thank you, congressman. Merry christmas my friend, john larson, in connecticut, and im sorry for what happened. Blanche lincoln, i have always loved you. Up next, what were learning about the connecticut shooter himself. Lets get to mike isikoff, the Investigative Reporter from nbc, and find out what possibly motivated all this were talking about. The place for politics, were still here. 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Its just common sense. From td ameritrade. [ male announcer ] jill and her mouth have lived a great life. But she has some dental issues shes not happy about. So i introduced jill to crest prohealth for life. Selected for people over 50. Prohealth for life is a toothpaste that defends against tender, inflamed gums, sensitivity and weak enamel. Conditions people over 50 experience. Crest prohealth for life. So jill can keep living the good life. Crest. Life opens up when you do. Back to hardball. As we continue to learn more about the horrific shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in connecticut, we continue to have questions about 20yearold adam lanza and what happened in the weeks, days, and hours before the tragedy began to unfold. We will begin with the sequence of events as we know them from police. Sometime before 9 30 this past friday morning, the suspect, 20yearold adam lanza, drove to his mothers home in newtown, connecticut. At that point police say he shot and killed his mother, nancy lanza, before taking four guns from her home. One of which was a bushmaster semiautomatic Assault Rifle. Police say adam lanza drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School arriving around 9 30. Unable to gain entry through the main entry, he broke through a window, and thats when police say his shooting rampage began. In total 20 children were killed as well as 6 adults. There were also two surviving adult victims. Police say adam lanza turned a gun on himself when he heard and first saw the responders coming onto the scene. Three guns were recovered from inside the school. There they are. One handgun was left in lanzas car. Were joined by nbc National Investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff in newtown, connecticut. Michael, thanks so much for joining us. Weve only got about three minutes for your presentation, so run through what you think is salient, what you have been able to put together about the motive and the method of this killer. Well, first of all, chris, about motive, we are still clueless. He didnt have any connection to the school at all. He may have gone there as a child. In fact, he probably did according to friends, but he didnt work there, he had no association with people there, so that doesnt seem to go anywhere. His mother we know didnt work there either and had no current affiliation with the school. We do know that nancy lanza was worried about her son. He was a recluse, he stayed at home, spent hours in front of the computer. She was trying to help him get a job, trying to help him get an internship someplace. But doesnt seem to have succeeded. In fact, theres no real record of him doing anything other than taking a few College Courses since he graduated high school. Spoke to one friend today who said through nancy lanzas help, intervention, she got her son to help a friend set up a Computer System at home, and thats about the last thing, and that was about a year ago. Thats the last thing we know that adam lanza did. Did he have any proclivity towards violence . Not that anybody can see. He had no police record. People who know nancy lanza said they saw no sign of violence. If anything, one friend said today he was a vegan, that he expressed moral objections to killing animals that he would eat. So, you know, looking for any kind of pattern here that would explain what happened last friday so far has not yielded anything that adds up, and we also learned, weve been told, that the computer where he spent so many hours in his room was damaged before this attack. He actually removed the hard drive. So hopes of finding some writings that he might have done on the computer so far has not yielded anything public. Now, Police Lieutenant vance said they have seized significant evidence in the house. They havent he hasnt told us what it is, but he did say today that its going to be months before we get a report from the state police that pulls together all the evidence and might shed some light on what continues to be a very big mystery. Michael, youre the best. Thank you for joining us to tell us whats going on. Were going to keep checking back with you as you continue investigating. Much more, by the way, on this horrific tragedy in newtown, connecticut, in a moment, including whether new gun laws could curb gun violence in the country we all live in. Youre watching hardball, the place for politics. Black blank [ man ] ring ring. Progresso this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work . You just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. Step 1. Eat the soup. 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[ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. Im diana olick with your im alyssa rayburger. Senator daniel arrest complicationings. He was the longest serving senator. He was 788 years old. South carolina governor has reported congressman tim scott to the senator jim demint who will be sworn in election month. Gas prices dropped four cents over the weekend, following 3. 25 a gallon on average. Back to hardball. Were back. In the wake of the friday horrific massacre up in connecticut, a number of gun rights advocates have argued that the problem isnt that there are too many semiautomatic weapons in society. The problem, they say, is that there werent enough armed people on site to challenge the killer. Here is what larry pratt, the executive director of gun owners of america, wrote this morning in usa today. In addition to the gunman, blood is on the hands of members of congress and the connecticut legislators who voted to ban guns from all schools in connecticut and most other states. They are the ones who made it illegal to defend oneself with a gun in a school when that is the only effective way of resisting a gunman. Is he right . Larry pratt joins us right now. Hes joined on the other side of the table by david chipman, who is in the group called mayors against illegal guns, a former atf agent. First of all, lets imagine my same question i asked about 9 11, how do we stop it from happening again, exactly what happened on friday, larry . Nothing is 100 , but certainly if teachers and janitors and principals were able to defend themselves with guns . With guns you would arm teachers . I would allow teachers and other adults in the schools who can qualify for a concealed carry permit to be able to go into the school like they go into just about every other place in our country once they have those permits. But weve said, no, no, no theres something really special and who knows what about those schools, and teachers cant be trusted with a gun there is. Were not going to let them do that. Every one of our mass murders in the last decade with one exception was at a gunfree zone. Which is where youre not supposed to bring guns. You say if the teachers were allowed to carry a gun or janitors or a hired watchman even would be good. Might have had a chance. Better than sitting like fish in a barrel. David, whats your reaction . The kind of thing going on rather relentlessly in this country, mass shootings. The first step is to make sure anyone buying a gun passes a background check but the mother would have passed the background check. The kid shot her in the face so he could have her guns. I think what we would stop is other people and other scenarios this scenario, this thing from happening again. How would you stop it . If it happens tomorrow morning, a crazy kid goes after his mothers gun, kills her, grabs the gun, heads to school, and shoots a bunch of people. I dont believe guns is the answer. You cant answer my question. I believe i can. How do you stop it from happening again . I believe that you stop it again with reasonable legislation and empowering our Law Enforcement to protect people. That is my belief. And as how lets get particular. Okay. Which Law Enforcement officials were on site at the Elementary School where all the shooting happened on friday . Would there be a policeman on site . Chris, what we do know is that the woman who was killed was heavily armed, and it didnt protect her. So all i can say is back from that is moving forward there are many scenarios that arent quite like this that i think can be stopped. One of the things i got to do at atf is work with United States secret service, most heavily armed group we have in this country, and they havent used their guns to protect the president and thwart an assassination attempt since 1950. So what im saying is that i believe that the answer is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals before they get them. Before Law Enforcement officers are you saying the secret service isnt necessary . Thats not what i said. What do you mean . What i said is their use of guns, shooting guns, is not necessary. Because their whole rule is to cover and evacuate. Thats what they do. Okay. Get the president out of there. So possibly we need to think of strategies like that in schools. Lets go in another direction here. What theyre called, Assault Rifles, theyre semiautomatic, right . We have outlawed automatic weapons since the days of machine gun kelly. Whats wrong with making the same rule effective . Were talking about each little increment no, no, slippery slope. Lets not get into slippery slope. Thats what we say. Would this be a less free country if you couldnt have an Assault Rifle . Yeah, because we have guns fundamentally protected by the Second Amendment wait a minute. We have guns in order to control the government. Why would anyone what . I thought youd hear that. Yes. We have guns in order to control the government. And where have Assault Rifles been useful in controlling the size or direction or policy of the United States government in our history . The brown bess rifle was used to win our independence. From the british . Lets talk about our government. Militiamen used their militia rifles to defend new orleans against the british. Against the british. When have guns been useful in curtailing the power athens, tennessee, 1946. Townsmen rose up against corrupt government and threw them out at the point of a gun. Keep going. Is that not enough . I want more. I want to know where your head is going. Youre like Sharron Angle out in nevada who said we need Second Amendment rights when the politicians get out of hand. Thats what the Second Amendment is for. Shes not making that up. How would you use your Second Amendment rights if you didnt like the way your congressman or senator is using them we have a Political Action committee how would you use your Second Amendment rights . By being prepared. To do what . We dont have to shoot anybody. You have the threat though. I think it bothers lawmakers we have that capability, and sometimes they kind of let it loose when theyre not quite in so, larry, its not just the right to use guns to protect your home, its the right to protect guns to take on your government. The government has been overboard youre saying i want to give you more minutes. The menacing quality of the gun owners is what limits the size of the United States government . The United States government has gotten rather big lately. Do you really think its working . The israelis used to think ladida about having guns. They finally got it figured out. Anybody i read the reports on this. You have to be qualified. Theres a whole rule you have to go through concealed carriers are qualified. Theyve taken preparations. Let me these laws say they cant be in schools. David, this gentleman here primarily i know because i have it in my family primarily believes that the purpose of the right to bear arms is to defend yourself against a popular elected government. Thats what they believe. They dont fear seven days military coup taking over, they mean the government they have to hold off. Lets be very clear, what he means is me. I was one of those people for 25 years, and i was in texas when i heard on a radio someone said the way to solve this nations problems was to shoot me in the head as an atf agent, and after that we had a president of the United States retire from the nra. He wouldnt take it anymore. A line had been crossed. I dont believe most americans believe that. I mean, i believe, and i think most americans do, that Law Enforcement is here as a force of good, and were the good guys, and thats what we saw in newtown, and so when we get rhetoric like im hearing right now, i think this is extremely fringe. I believe that most americans believe otherwise. Well, anybody that worked in a gun control agency would naturally think that people that want to own their guns under the Second Amendment is fringe. Thats how far to the left and when do you decide when the government has done wrong with your gun . When they steal elections who stole an election . In athens, tennessee, elections were stolen, and thats when people knew i hope everybody is listening to this larry pratt, who believes he holds guns to defend himself against the federal government, right, or local government or any government. And who decides when to use the guns . Well, we call up 911 and we find out. What do you thats not something we know until the outrage, like our forefathers said, after a long train of abuses. This is not something that anybody is proposing we rush right into. Well have you back. I want to hear this argument. You were with branch davidians. I was what . You were with branch davidian. I thought what happened to them was absolutely over the top. Ruby ridge and all that stuff. That was an abuse of government power. Thank you very much. You speak for a lot of people out there. Larry pratt for the gun owners against the government when necessary. David chipman, thank you, for the atf, thank you for your service over the years. 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Serious side effects include worsening of an enlarged prostate, possible increased risk of prostate cancer, lower sperm count, swelling of ankles, feet, or body, enlarged or painful breasts, problems breathing during sleep, and blood clots in the legs. Tell your doctor about your medical conditions and medications, especially insulin, corticosteroids, or medicines to decrease blood clotting. Talk to your doctor today about androgel 1. 62 so you can use less gel. Log on now to androgeloffer. Com and you could pay as little as ten dollars a month for androgel 1. 62 . What are you waiting for . This is big news. What are you waiting for . Try running four. Ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately weve got ink. It gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at Office Supply stores. Rewards we put right back into our business. This is the only thing weve ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. Make your mark with ink from chase. Welcome back to hardball. Some signs of optimism this weekend. On friday, john boehner went further than he has in the past. He made an offer that would actually include raising the tax rates on people with incomes over a Million Dollars. On sunday, it was also reported that he had offered to raise the debt ceiling as part of the deal. David corin and msnbc political anal list. Thank you both for joining us. I have think youre both optimistic. I see you smiling there. Im looking at these numbers it looks like boehner is now talking a trillion dollars, but mainly getting through the very rich, over a Million Dollars a year, not over 250 ,000 a year. And hes talking about getting rid of some deductions to help bolster it up a bit. The president is sticking to he wants to get 1. 4 in revenues. Is that something that can be bridged by simp arithmetic . I think its very important that john boehner has conceded that rates have to go up. I dont think a million is going to be enough on the revenue side. You mean a trillion . No, i mean doing it on peoples incomes over a million. I dont think thats going to be enough. The principle thats at work here is not that we want to raise the rates on 400,000 families. But that the rates need to go up. I still think the 250 is where the president demands to stay. I think were at a moment in our politics given the horrors that happen in connecticut where nobody wants to go to the mat fighting over rich peoples taxes. Do you think the fact that boehner broke and said were going to have to raise the rates for somebody . Is that important . Its important. But in order to do that, to sell to his own caucus, which is really the key issue here, what can he sell to his caucus that doesnt trigger a rebellion against him. Hes going to get Something Big back. And theres talk about big concessions from obama on medicare. And then you say wait a second. These tax rates are going up on these people anyway. So why should we give up medicare raising the eligibility age, which is terrible policy. We could talk about it another time. The intangible question that joy just raised. Do you think the horror that weve been living through is going to make you dont want to look like the bad guy. I think that well make a short term deal more likely. But whether it gets to the heart of the issue, about what you do with a debt ceiling what did you make with the report that they werent going to diddle around. Theyre not going to hold us up in the country again. If bohe ehner gives tax breai dont know how he keeps his caucus in line. I have a sense the president has a plan here. I think hes Cool Hand Luke in this one. Next week, we begin to unsqueeze and then we finally cut a deal and then have given up. Its all around this deadline of the 31st. Yeah, and, chris, the history is this president does really well in lame ducks. Even after the disastrous election from 2010, he got dont ask, dont tell. He got a lot through. But i dont think the big, overall deal can get done by the overall deal. They dont want to be debating this right now. Gun control is the thing thats on the table. And you know what, ill give you one last thing. I hope they try to do something in the lame duck about gun control. I think that would be a smart move. Anyway, thank you so much. Joy reed and david corn. A little less optimistic than i am. Coming up, why im a little less optimistic. This is hardball. Weve got a point out on this to out do their optimists and deficits. Well be right back. Thomas sargent. Nobel laureate in economics, and one of the most cited economists in the world. Professor sargent, can you tell me what cd rates will be in two years . No. If he cant, no one can. Thats why ally has a raise your rate cd. Ally bank. Your money needs an ally. Youll also care about our new offer. You get access to nurses who can help with your questions. And your loved one can get exelon patch free for 30 days. If the doctor feels its right for them. It cannot change how the disease progresses. Hospitalization and rarely death have been reported in patients who wore more than one patch at a time. The most common side effects of exelon patch are nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. The likelihood and severity of these side effects may increase as the dose increases. Patients may experience loss of appetite or weight. Patients who weigh less than 110 pounds may experience more side effects. People at risk for stomach ulcers who take certain other medicines should talk to their doctor because serious stomach problems such as bleeding may worsen. Patients may experience slow heart rate. Thirty days of exelon patch free for your loved one. Access to trained nurses for you. Call 18559991399 or visit exelonpatchoffer2. Com. Let me finish tonight with this. Im hopeful about the cliff, the fiscal cliff. Im hopeful that the president can get the change in the top rate and we can get a balanced plan to cut the growth in the national debt. I think getting an agreement would be a powerful catalyst for boosting Business Confidence in this country, getting some real power behind this economic recovery im also hopeful we can use this success on the deal between obama and boehner to do some positive deals in 2013. If they can deal with this, they can deal with all sorts of