serve his country. this gives him a good measure of credibility in fighting cheney's claims that the methods cheney has defended have saved the country. so who is next, by the way, up in massachusetts? with the loss of ted kennedy, who will fill his senate seat from massachusetts? will it be joe kennedy, his nephew? will it be ed marquet who pushed through the bill on energy and climate change? and it's one thing to be attacked by conservatives, but are president obama's allies going wobbly on him? what do they want when it comes to issues like health care? at some point, these folks are going to have to learn to distinguish between the perfect and the possible. also, tom ridge is now saying he never meant to suggest that top bush administration officials were thinking more about politics than security. when they pushed to upgrade the security warnings. the weekend before the 2004 election. but didn't he just say exactly that in that book? we're going to have him on wednesday, by the way, to make it clear where he stands. whether he stands with the book he wrote or with this latest well, we'll see what it is. that's in the politics fix. and proof once again that words have meaning. members of something called the texas nationalist movement, that's really what they call themselves, want to take governor rick perry up on his suggestion that tax texas truly secede from the united states of america. would that put texas on the other side of pat buchanan's security defense? we begin tonight, former vice president dick cheney's attack on the obama administration for investigating possible cia abuse of prisoners. a former u.s. congressman, a former candidate for president in the republican side, he's formally represented the state of california, succeeded by his son who served in the military. >> and debby wasserman schultz is a member of the judiciary committee and also joins us. mr. hunter, let's take a look at what former vice president dick cheney said over the weekend. . >> now, you get a new administration and they said we didn't like those opinions, we're going to go investigate those lawyers and perhaps have them disbarred. i just think it's an outrageous precedent to set to have this kind of -- i think intensely partisan, politicized investigation. i just think it's an outrageous political act, that will do great damage long-term to our capacity to be able to have people take on difficult jobs, make difficult decisions about having to worry about what the next administration is going to say. >> mr. hunter, do you share the vice president's argument that what eric holder, the attorney general is doing, and looking at possibly prosecuting these people as partisan in nature? in other words, an attempt to exploit the situation to help get votes in the next election, a partisan move for partisan purposes. of that's what the vice president is accusing him of. >> yeah, chris, for this reason. the initial scrub on these operations was made a couple of years ago. one person was turned up as having violated the law, and that person was punished. but beyond that, what we're talking about is waterboarding. that's what -- that's what the vice president is talking about. that's the enhanced interrogation techniques that the cia used. that's a technique where you make a terrorist feel or be afraid of the idea that he is going under water. when, in fact, you're not putting him under water, but it does scare the heck out of him, we water boarded precisely three people, khalid sheikh mohammed who killed 3,000 people in new york who was the prime guy who got water boarded. and we scared him, because that's all waterboarding is. we scared him. we water boarded, incidentally, hundreds of our own military personnel, they water board themselves in training to turn themselves up. but we scared khalid sheikh mohammed. when we scared him, he told us about three new plots we didn't know about. one was to hit the marines in north africa. another one was to hit the united states itself again, a second time, and the last one was to hit the british at heathrow airport, or another location. so mohamad sheikh -- khalid sheikh mohammed, the guy who planned the attack that killed 3,000 new yorkers was scared. now, at the same time, mr. obama's operatives a few weeks ago shot three pirates through the head to save one hostage. now, you can shoot three pirates through the head to save one hostage. why can't you water board the guy that killed 3,000 americans to get information on new plans to hit this country? >> well, you're a military man. >> that's a question liberals have to answer. >> well, i think we all have to answer, not just liberals. what about the geneva conventions, and what about this technique they were using to click a gun next to somebody's head when he is blindfolded? is they had a guy with a hood over his head and convinced him they were about to hit him with a buzz saw, another guy they threatened to rape his mother in front of him. >> yeah, the geneva convention, first, if you look at the general jeef aconvention, was analyzed by the lawyers in place, and they came to the conclusion, especially about waterboarding, because that's the primary thing. that since we do it to our own soldiers, by the hundreds, incidentally, and it doesn't hurt them, and it makes them tougher, and it doesn't hurt anybody, khalid sheikh mohammed gained weight after he was water boarded. we decided since we do that to our own soldiers in training, we're not going to consider that torture. if you consider that torture -- >> look, you know why -- you're not putting -- you're not being honest here, congressman. we did that because the chinese communists were doing it in korea, so we did it to prepare our g.i.s in case they get picked up. >> what's wrong with that? >> you never explained why we're doing it. you make it sound like the enemy was torturing our prisoners. we didn't do it as part of our training. >> well, you're wrong about that, chris. senator lebin was i'm sure very shocked when he saw that we do it with our own folks, but the point is, if we do it are we tore during american soldiers? you have to answer yes if you occur consider waterboarding to be torture. answer the question. >> we're preparing them to face torture. >> no, we water board them. we don't prepare them. we water board them. are we torturing our own soldie soldiers? >> you're getting a game here. >> that's not a game. that's a reasonable question. >> is it torture? >> i would love to jump in here. >> okay. you're in here. i'm sorry, i'm holding you up too long. you're a guest. go to it. congresswoman schultz. >> thank you, chris, and i appreciate the opportunity to point out that it's you think believably disingenuous of the former vice president, who was part of an administration who basically crafted an entire department of justice that was -- that rose and fell on politics to suggest that now the obama administration and attorney general holder is pursuing this investigation based on politics. at the end of the day, no one is above the law. john mccain, the republican nominee for president, said that waterboarding is torture. the geneva convention says waterboarding is torture. >> no, it does not. >> excuse me. -- >> the geneva convention does not say that. >> excuse me, duncan, i let you finish. in addition to water boarding, we also subjected these prisoners to threatening to kill their children, using a drill next to them while they were blindfolded and naked. and look, at the end of the day, the heinous crimes that these people committed, i mean, no one feels a bit sorry for them. but when it comes to making sure that our prisoners and our detainees get the treatment we want to make sure they get and that they are not tortured, we have to make sure that none of our lawyers who give advice to our interrogators nor or interrogators are above the law. and we cannot continue the downward spiral of torture, and make that the policy of -- and acceptable practice in the country. it's simply unacceptable. and with all due respect, duncan, to say that that information that khalid sheikh mohammed revealed as a result was a direct result of waterboarding, even francis t n townsend, disagreed with that on tv this week, and said that you couldn't really make a direct connection that the vice president tried to make. and in fact the fbi interrogator who questioned him before the cia came in and used torture got information that was incredibly valuable in two days. >> let me answer that. >> mr. -- >> they sunday -- >> mr. hunter, i want you to listen to senator mccain here and then you react yourself. >> okay. >> i think that these interrogations, once publicized, helped al qaeda recruit. i think that the ability of us to work with our allies was harmed, and i believe that information, according to the fbi and others, could have been gained through other methods. >> mr. hunter. >> yeah. chris, if -- if john mccain, my old friend, is suggesting that if we just talk nicely to khalid shake mohammed, he would have told us about those plans to attack america, the marine encampment at north africa and great britain. wait a second -- let me finish. let me finish. let me finish. we talked to khalid shake mohammed for a long time, and we water boarded him on multiple occasions. now if talking nice to him would have elicited that information, i'm sure they would have put that off. but the real question for debby is this. >> before they water boarded 4i78 of. i'm not sure about the facts. >> mr. hunter, you've got 15 to 30 seconds here. go ahead. >> okay. let me talk. debby, what you should really concentrate on is the fact that the israelis use a much more stringent method of interrogation. i look forward to you asking for the israeli prime minister to step down, because they do it. you think they should stop doing it? >> this is america. the last time i checked, this is the united states of america. >> so you're not going to ask the israeli leadership to step downful. >> mr. hunter, that is so ridiculous. >> it's not ridiculous. >> the united states doesn't torture. of no one is above the law, including dick cheney, including the lawyers that -- >> and waterboarding is not torture. >> to require -- well, i think that when the investigation is completed, it's quite possible that you'll be proven wrong. the fbi investigator that questioned him before the cia stepped in and tortured him got more valuable information within a couple of days as opposed to the weeks and weeks in which they got virtually nothing. that you can't even tie the information that khalid sheikh mohamad gave to the cia after they tortured him to those practices. no one is above the law. so debby, so the americans feel torture -- so the americans torture themselves, the air force tortures itself, according to your definition. >> no -- gimme a break. that's preparing our troops. >> okay. congressman, even the most normal intelligence could help you with this. i don't know why you're not applying it, because you have it. obviously, the service people know they're in training. they're not going to be killed. >> getting ready for what they might be subject to in other countries. >> when we submitted them to water torture. >> so chris -- >> we scared khalid sheikh mohamad. we scared him, and he gave up three potential terrorist plots, and you don't think it's worth it. >> there isn't anyone that agrees that the information we got from him after he was tortured is tied -- >> i disagree. >> no one agrees with that. name one expert. >> direct quote from the cia, the interrogation methods gave us pivotal information. that's a direct quote. >> a direct quote. >> mr. duncan, what are your limits on what we can do to a prisoner? >> i think what americans -- the standard should be if we use it with our own soldiers in training, as we do waterboarding, then it should be allowed with people who have been a detainee to what we practice on our detainees. those of african origin -- >> soldiers, debby. you're saying -- >> that's because -- >> we can't do it to terrorists. that's nuts! >> duncan -- >> we have to make sure that they can get ready for it. >> okay. by the way -- thank you, mr. hunter. mr. hunter, you're langing on this like a life board, and i'll tell you every service person who comes to serve our country, the worst kind of boot carp knows there is always a chance of an accident, but they also know that none of the drill instructors intend to kill them, never believe that ever. and therefore, it's not the same as what happens to a terrorist who is picked up by us. and you know the difference. >> chris -- >> one thing threatened -- and the other thing tough training. >> people go through survival training do not know what's going to come. >> well, they do know -- >> in the event they are tortured in other countries. >> what i'm saying is -- >> what you're saying is -- >> what you're saying is scaring -- khalid sheikh mohamad was bad. >> i'm siding with john mccain, because he has been there in both regards. >> i have two sons serving in iraq or have served in iraq. >> and i pointed that out, sir. i always point out your service to your country. >> and i think they're safer because of the methods we have used. >> well, there isn't any direct evidence of that. >> congresswoman debby wasserman schultz. duncan hunter, thank you, sir. up next, will another republican replace teddy in the senate? could his nephew joe go for the seat? we'll look at that, coming up next, you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. is the left going negative on president obama? "hardball" comes back after this. welcome back to "hardball." shortly before he died, senator ted kennedy asked the massachusetts state law being amended so somebody could be given his seat by appointment until a special election is held this january. today, massachusetts governor deval patrick reiterated that action to be taken by state legislators and agreed to hold a hearing next week to get the matter going. the governor has set a date of january 19th for the big special election. that means we're going to have a primary in early december in the democratic and republican party to pick ted kennedy's successor. we turn to "boston globe" columnist, sam alice, and new york columnist steve crowunanimous key. i know everybody has waited decently until today. it's a busy political country, especially for the common wealth. isn't joe kennedy's to take if he wants it? >> i think that's pretty close. but no one has a clue what he wants to do. i don't think he knows yet. he has got a little more time, chris, to make up his mind than the others who have to act very quickly. what we don't know is if he still has the fire in his belly to do all this. he left after 12 years in the senate before, and we're not sure that he wanted that. he's got a very nice arrangement now with citizens energy, which is a nonprofit that gives cheap oil to low-income people, which also has some very profitable for-profit pieces to go with it. of and he may stay. i don't know. >> steve, it seems like joe kennedy is more of an executive and likes running his own company and doing his own thing, not voting on 500 votes a year on things you're not even interested in, may get cornered on. what do you think? >> well, joe kennedy, when he got elected to the house in 1986 was 43 years old, the question was when does he make his move to go to statewide office. his dad was in the senate, john kerry was in the senate, and he was blocked there, so it was always the governorship. 1994 bill weld attel 0% in the polls. 1998 was supposed to be the year for joe kennedy to run for governor. he was off and running, and then there was the scandal with his involves and the scandal with his brother michael and babysitt babysitter. and in late 1997 got out and has been out of politics all together. since then, we've got the citizens energy thing that likes that, but it's also good for political visible. he stars in their television ads. they have slick, political-style television ads that run all over massachusetts. >> only in massachusetts, steve, can you say, thanks to our good friends in venezuela, i'm able to give you the cheap price in oil. only in massachusetts. by the way, i want you to respond to this. here is joe kennedy giving -- well, it was a classic joe kennedy speech, but obviously given for his uncle at the funeral, at the wake the other night at the kennedy library. here he is. >> he was telling me, never, ever, ever, ever, ever give upful you stay in the race. and if people don't have health insurance, you stay in the race. if people don't have adequate health care, adequate housing, you stay in the race. if people aren't being treated properly, you stay in the race. >> well, this had a bit of a political ring to it, even in that circumstance. let me ask you, sam, about the three other guys i'm looking at ed marky, who did a good job of getting climate change through, and i really like the guy, i think he is a great public servant. stephen link, a pro life guy which would separate him. and marty mill i don't know who left the house to become a leader in the university of massachusetts system. what do you think? and then i also hear from people that know that stuff that martha cokely, the ag would be the toughest to beat. >> martha coakley is a very straekt candidate. she will be the only woman in the race, has got a lot going for her. meehan has been negative for so long, and got out, went to local lowell, made more money there, i think he's going to jump back in. steve lynch brings a lot of votes in boston, but i don't know where he does with the rest of the country. and in terms of his shoes, i don't think they're even close to some of the others who want to run against them. michael capjuano, a former mayor of summer vil, if joe runs he probably wouldn't, because he would be the kennedy candidate within that field. and vicki definitely isn't running, she told the governor she wasn't running. we hadn't heard that before. >> this may be a smaller field than we think. >> i think the field is going to be -- check me -- i think the field is going to include the following people. i think it's going to include steven lynch. i think it's going to include martha ccoakley, meehan and maye eddie marquet. i don't think joe kennedy is running, i don't think any kennedy is running. i know it's great "people" magazine stuff. i don't think it's going to happen. so i'm going with this. markey, lynch, coakley, meehan and capjuano. >> if joe kennedy runs, i think you'll have a three-way race. joe, steve. the important thing to know about steve lirvelg, he is not afraid to run against the legacy candidate. his political career was made in 19 6 in massachusetts by running against the son of billy bowl engineer in the heart of billy bolger country, boston and won. he is not afraid of this, he wants it. >> and kept max kennedy out of that seat, too. >> someone said max kennedy kept max kennedy out of the seat. >> that speech that he gave that wasn't so successful. >> the other candidate and you're right, too, i think is martha coakley. she sees an opening as the female candidate. then you're looking at ed markey, and marty meehan, and capjuano and maybe governor, but otherwise if it joe kennedy is in, it's a three-way race. >> that's a debate i want to moderate. what do you think, sam? can i get you to moderate that debate? i hear the word donny brook. i love it. last word. >> it's strange and wonder rouse times here, but i would interpret joe kennedy's speech as saying he's running at all. i think people are misreading that. second, i don't think eddie markey is going to run. i'm not sure he's going to leave. and if i were betting, i would say he's not going to run for the senate. >> but it's a free shot, remember. you don't have to give up anything. >> just your dignity if you lose. >> true. >> you are tougher than i am, but you might be right. but sam, you don't think ed will run. okay. >> were no. >> okay, thank you. guys. it looks like we have all eyes on joe kennedy for the next couple days or weeks. >> absolutely. of. >> next, it looks like sarah palin's decision to resign as governor has opened up the door to a lot of wealth. apparently she is going to make -- wait until you hear the tons of money walking in her direction on the speaking circuit. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. you know what's complicated? shipping. shipping's complicated. not really. with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service shipping is easy. if it fits, it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. that's not complicated. come on. how about...a handshake. alright. priority mail flat rate boxes only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship. some pharmacies make you work for it with memberships and fees. but not walmart. they have hundreds of generic prescriptions for just $4 for up to a 30-day supply or $10 for 90 days. save money. live better. walmart. and then there's the twin-turbocharging, 365-horsepower-generating, ecoboostâ„¢ engine in the all-new ford taurus sho that has the thirst of a v6 with the thrust of a v8. we speak car. we speak innovation. introducing the all-new taurus sho from ford. drive one. >> time for the sideshow. first up, careful what you say. remember back in april when texas governor rick perry talked up secession from the union? >> texas is a unique place. when we came in the union in this 1845, one of the issues was that we would be able to leave if we decided to do that. >> my hope is that america and washington in particular pays attention. we have got a great union, there is no reason to dissolve it, but if washington continues to thumb their nose at the american people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. >> well, the ignorance of these people is unbelievable. there is no secession clause. when texas joined the union, they could increase themselves to a number of states, but nothing about leaving the union. anyway, that was resolved in the civil war, you might say. it looks like rick perry, however, has started something, a group calling itself the texas nationalist movement had a session rally on steps of the state capitol. >> some folks say, is is he session legal? ask george washington what he thought about it? he could care less, he did it anyway. you ask sam houston what he thought about secession, he did it anyway. >> governor perry, i and the rest of the people of texas, if you abrogate this leadership, we will pick up this banner, and we will march it forward! >> well, that guy who was shouting about sam houston should know that sam houston, the hero of who won texas independence from mexico was evicted from office for opposing secession from the union, and refuse to go take an oath of allegiance to the confederacy. a little check on the history books will help before you go the rally. the candidate from virginia has a lot of explaining to do now. he is being forced to answer for something he wrote in a master's thesis back when he was in grad school. he wrote in '89, therein, he takes a shot at working women, and calls them detrimental to the american family, and said this weekend, this take on issues over the years has changed, in particular what he wrote about women in the workplace. he says that was an academic exercise and doesn't reflect his current views. it better not. and finally, a quick preview of our friend, mr. tom delay's turn on "dancing with the stars." there he is. the man once called "the hammer" in practice sessions with his dancing partner. you can see twinkle toes with his pumps out there. i guess that scott fitzgerald was dead wrong. there are second acts in american life. now for tonight's big number. sarah palin is no longer in elected office, but people apparently still want to hear what she has to say. according to politico, how much speech requests is she fielding right now? over 950 speech requests. i know it. i knew she was going to do it. say what you will. but just like howard destern, t reason people will listen to her is they have no idea what she will say next. a speech next week in hong kong to the investors' forum. i bet there is more to come. about a thousand speaking requests so far already in to hear the former governor of alaska. tonight's big number. up next, many liberals upset obama isn't fighting harder for things like the public option in the health care bill. is the far left going wobbly on the president? does he need the far left, or can he have the far left mad at him? that's ahead. you're washing "hardball," only on msnbc. of i'm julia boorstin with your cnbc market wrap. a major stock fell off in china sent oil prices tumbling. the dow jones industrial down almost 48 points. the s&p 500 lost 8 points and the nasdaq down more than 19 points. oil prices fell more than $3 and fell below $70 a barrel. the slide took its toll on oil produce producers. chevron down 1%. disney will pay $4 billion for marvel entertainment. marvel has played a popular and movie characters like ironman, spdrman and the xmen. and scott carson will step down and be replaced by 59-year-old jim al ba. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." >> back to "hardball," the left wing of the democratic party going to cause trouble? are they going wobbly on obama? let's hear about it from david coring, the washington bureau chief from jones magazine, and eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winning columnist for the "washington post." i want to start at the center of the hurricane, david corn, yourself, sir. are you getting antsy about barack obama? are you part of his problem? are you the name for his pain right now? on this public option? >> well, i'm glad you're focused on my antsyness. of i think the problem is that a lot of liberals, bloggers, writers, reporters and citizens as i go through e-mails are not going wobbly, as you put it, but they're beginning to worry -- there is a worriness that barack obama, they had high expectations for him, and i think rightfully so, i think he earned these high expectations during the campaign, that he may not be fighting hard enough and holding firm enough on some key fronts. you mentioned health care, but there is also afghanistan and climate change, bush investigations, don't ask, don't tell. and a lot of these issues -- areas, he has made some progress. but people are still wondering if he hasn't really gone to the mat for what he said he believed in during the campaign. that's really the issue here. >> by the way, on that topic, george will your colleague "the washington post" i never got an advance on one of his columns before, calls for withdrawal of all u.s. troops in afghanistan. that's interesting. the people on the right doing that. but what do you think, is the democratic candidate who is now the president of the united states, is he now betraying the cause? >> no, he's not betraying the cause. i've written columns, urging him to be -- to go further on investigating the excesses and i think crimes of the bush/cheney administration with regard to torture, and to hold firm on the public option. but politically, and this is "hardball," after all, politically, i think it's usefulful for the president in some ways to have the left baying at him. i think that probably helps him with the middle. ah! are you baying? are you sister soulja here? i'm will to go break with david corn. i'm -- are you ready to play the part of the blocking back, or whatever? >> if that's the sacrifice i have to make to get comprehensive health care in this country, i'm willing to do it. but seriously, there are different ways of compromise. i don't believe making the perfect -- the enemy of the good is possible. but i do think that obama to certain degrees miscalculated -- >> are you married? >> am i married? i believe i am, yes. >> you're not familiar with that phrase, the perfect the enemy of the good? i hear that all of the time. >> i think about it every day. but vis-a-vis, obama, i mean, he entered the health care debate thinking he could do this in a non-partisan fashion, and i think it's venting up in a pourized manner, and i think he is getting -- at this stage, getting the worse for that. >> it's funny what has changed, gene and david has been this tone of the country. we did come in in january. maybe this guy will get a few breaks from the other side and now we're down to olympia snow. >> that's right. and so, you know, how do we get there? well, there would be two competing narratives about that. mine would be that the republican party is -- has adopted a strategy of saying no, basically, and obama, i think, in my opinion, has offered and has offered and has offered, and maybe has offered too early, you know -- on some occasions. and hasn't gotten anything in return. but is it -- is it helpful for him in the -- in the medium term and in the long run to be seen to continue to offer? i mean, you know, i think there is a sentiment out there in the country that wants bipartisanship, and i think the white house calculates that to be seen as the party that's trying to offer that. >> yeah. >> is a good thing. and if you fast forward, you know, everybody is starting to think about 2010. you know, by then, the economy could be coming back, we could be out of this cycle of unemployment. >> okay. you're saying -- >> it could be getting better. >> later -- >> no, no, i think you've got to do health care now. >> i think now, too. let's take a look at the former president, bill clinton who really knows what he's talking about in politics, especially when he went through this hell in '94. here he is offering advice to the left and saying this. let's listen. >> i'm just telling you, we need to pass a bill and it needs to be the best bill we can get through congress. but doing nothing is not only the worst thing we can do for the economy and the worst thing we can do for health care. it's the worst thing we can do for the democrats. and don't you think the republicans don't know it. >> that is the voice of god, sir. david corn. that is the voice of god, because it's the voice of truth and experience. of i completely buy what he said. completely. of because when you lose in politics, you lose. and if you think you're going to get any credit from the center or from the right or any of the commentators from that part of the world for losing, you're crazy. the democratic left will be pounced on and blamed for defeat. so this idea you're waiting for the perfect bill or you won't go without the public option is suicidal. but that's my thought. your thoughts? >> that's not necessarily the issue, and i can remember a day, chris, where you didn't think bill clinton was so god-like. that aside, i do think there is a way to have a clear fight. i mean, one of the problems i think barack obama is having here. and i always say this. much i'm hesitant to second guess the political wizards of this white house, because they have done a pretty good job without my advice so far. but having said that, i think the health care fight has become very muddy fight now. it's not a clear battle, and it's unclear what he stands for in terms of the details of this bill, and you can't just pass anything. it has to be something that people recognize as good for them, and they have to have a clear understanding of this bill. so to that degree, i think bill clinton is right. passing something is better than passing nothing. but if it's something that's unclear and people don't really understand, and it can be demagoged even after passage, that doesn't necessarily help -- >> do you honestly think that's going to happen? do you honestly think you're not just fighting a strong man, david? do you think he would want to do that? >> listen, i'm not sure he may want to do that, but if you let congress proceed the way it's proceeding, you may come up with something that is of a big mess that's unclear to most americans. >> yeah, okay. i think it should be about a page or two long. it should be that everybody has got to enroll, everybody has got to be part of it, and it should regulate and control the insurance industry so it doesn't make a killing out of this. >> absolutely. bill clinton's message cuts both ways. i think it's also a message to democrats who may be rechemicals transit, unwilling to stick with the majority view in the democratic caucus of what the bill ought to look like. and part of that message is, you know, if it the democrats go down in 2010, who is going to lose? it's those democrats and those marginal districts that are going to be in trouble. and that it is better for them, for the democrats, to pass a bill, even if it goes further than they think they might be comfortable with. >> i admire the roots and admire people on the left for standing for something that really matters to them and the country. i am completely for national health care, but i do know from experience going back to truman, nixon, carter. in every case, the liberals have had a shot at it, and have actsed like the plo in a sense -- in this sense -- don't anybody write in saying i'm accused of being a plo. they never miss an opportunity to blow an opportunity? >> right. right now, it's not the left that's controlling the ball game here. it really is the white outs and max baucus and others. so if anything is going awry, it's not because people on the left are criticizing what's happening. >> before you get to 60, you have got to get the first 59. >> 50 or 51. >> well, i don't buy that. in crazy land. eugene robinson, david, everybody is entitled to an opinion on "hardball." coming up, tom ridge pulls back on what he wrote in that book. by the way, he is coming on wednesday and i'm going to ask him, do you believe what you wrote in that book? he voiced suspicions in that book that people like rumsfeld and ashcroft were playing politics with terror alerts. i'm going to ask him if he still believes that. i believe he does, even if he's working around the edges of that. this is "hardball" on msnbc. ourd we should start here. good friends -- we compare our progressive direct rates, apples to apples, against other top companies, to help you get the best price. how do you do that? 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[ chuckles ] wow! good luck getting your remote back. it's all right -- i love this channel. shopping less and saving more. now, that's progressive. call or click today. i'm finally going to get a flat panel for my home theater. - ( cheering ) - ( laughs ) thank you. what should i get? uh, you. you should check out our new leds. the picture's better than life. okay, but i don't want to pay too much. don't worry about it. we'll match those other stores' prices. and we'll deliver and hook it up for free. okay. last question. if you guys are here, who's in the stores? the latest home theater technology and thousands of people eager to help. best buy. buyer be happy. coming up, with another kennedy go to the senate for massachusetts. we'll be back to talk about that in a minute. "hardball" returns with the "politics fix." time for the politics fix. joining me now, jean cummings, assistant managing editor of politico. and sam of "the new york times," whose new book is "the death of conservati conservatism." one of the great books in recent years about which way the conservative movement is heading. let me go to the question on the deck now. your thoughts on what's happening in massachusetts? not a good example of democratic governance in this question of filling ted's seat at this point. >> well, you know, you wonder what would happen if the roles were reversed. let's say we had a state where a republican appointee might be the filibuster vote who could take down health care. tremendous supporter of health care. supporter of barack obama and the democrats on this. i think they're right. the rules are the rules. and i think the structure of politics is the thing we forget about most. we take most for granted. the systems, the rules, the way things have been done all along. if there had been an idea in play for quite some time to do the process a little differently, that's one thing. you wonder what the cost might be if we get this razor-thin vote with the issues your guests have been talking about and have a hand-picked appointee who pushes the bill through. >> you think this would be an ex-post facto law? pushing it through to get a vote on health care? >> has how it could look. that's not necessarily the case. politics is a perception as we know or often is. this is a case when you look at the great legislation we've seen in modern times. you go back to the real pr predecessor of this, the bill that lbj passed. there were 13 republican senators who signed on. enormous majorities. had a very prosperous, booming economy. gdp had gone up 8% that year. we're in much, stricter tougher times. it's hard to say what the fallout from something like this might be. >> okay. jean, i'm not sure the democrats are able to see what it's like to be a republican or imagine being a democrat looking at a republican doing what they're doing right now. which is to try to make up for screwing around before. several years ago they decided to not let the governor of massachusetts pick an interim appointee when someone had to leave. now they want to fill the seat to get a vote on health care. you assume, like i do, they're going to go ahead and make that vote next week and get it over with? >> i certainly think they will and not surprised they will. i'm not sure it's a bad thing or a surprise. the democrats can look down at texas and see the way tom delay used the redistricting to benefit. what i wonder about and think, the first piece of legislation they passed in the romney era to prevent him from filling kerry's seat if kerry won the presidency, that piece of legislation wasn't responsible. it left the states for months and months without any representation. in the end they might come up with a piece of legislation provided it's written very clearly in there the interim appointment doesn't run for office. >> my thoughts basically. i want to come back and talk about who's going to fill that seat up there and also about tom ridge. i think kennedy is over in terms of electing senators in massachusetts. that's my hunch. back with "the fix." you're watching "hardball." i said, "you're joking." amandai know sandra personally. and she was only able to afford a week's worth of medication at a time. sandrasome of my medication was $100 for one prescription. amandabut now, she's able to get a whole month's generic prescription for $4. amandashe's also able to get a three-month supply for just $10. sandrai just want to say thank you, from the bottom of my heart. vo: save money. live better. walmart. introducing a breakthrough from tums that can control your heartburn for hours all day or all night. it's called tums dual action, and it's the longest lasting tums ever. tums dual action works two ways to relieve heartburn: like all tums, it goes to work in seconds. plus, tums dual action has an effective acid reducer that works for hours, all day or all night, to keep heartburn from coming back. rely on tums dual action for fast, long-lasting relief of heartburn. brand power. helping you buy better. we're back with the politico's jeanne cummings and sam taun hous, author of this great book. last question, quickly before i get off the kennedy thing, where there be another kennedy in massachusetts? >> i doubt it. i really like the idea. joe kennedy might get in. he's not going to go easy. i think it's time to move on. >> do you agree to make a fresh start in massachusetts? >> let it end on a high note. this is the last of the great liberals. let's end it. >> >> smart thinking. what do you think of tom ridge? is he hedging? is he hedging when he said he wasn't pressured having said in this new book of his he suspected there was politics afoot in deciding on whether to put us on alert that weekend before the election of 2004? >> you know, chris, he may be hedging. this tells us something of the atmosphere of the bush administration. when thing you look for when you have a policy debate is you want to be able to make your case. you know you're not always going to win. you want to be able to make your case. in the bush administration he never thought he was able to make his case. that if the atmosphere could be such if, all right, even if you're not directly pressured you're feeling pressure constantly. i think he was probably more candid about that in the book than he's being right now. >> i'm going to push him on that when he comes here wednesday. i want to know. your thoughts, jeanne. is the book right? is this back pedalling? >> i think it's interesting he said he didn't mean to imply he was under pressure. he didn't imply it. he said it. he said that he was. i, you know, i think ridge has always been a conscious politician. never one to get too far out in the front of any debate. i think he found himself out there right on the edge of, you know, a mayor controversy and his instincts have taken over and he's now trying to work his way back into a safer position, but in the cool and quiet moments -- >> okay. go to go. >> -- writing his book -- >> i want to try something when he comes on wednesday. will you recant, governor? i believe he will not recant. i think he's sticking with the book. thank you. good luck with the good. "the death of conservative." a hell of a book. join us again tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." time for "the ed show" with ed schultz. i'm ed schultz. this is "the ed show." good evening, americans. live from 30 rock in new york, it's "the ed show" on msnbc. we're on the road this weekend. spent a couple of days in the heartland and mountain west. folks, i'm telling you there is a movement sweeping through the country. the people are going to be delivering an all the may tum to their democratic leaders. either you back the public option or we're not going to back you. that's what i heard on the road. i'll show you the town hall meeting coming up and the ultimatum in colorado. shooter's out flapping his jaw again, of course, in full fearmonger mode. he says the department justice's decision to investigate cheney is -- i guess former cia officer jack rice is going to be here to tell us more tonight. plus, michele bachmann is back in psycho talk. it's almost as if she never left. rabbi shmuley is getting it done and tom ridge is taking it all back. interesting. coming up, a great panel
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