Right lifetime income in retirement shouldn't learn more it t.i.a.a. Dot org slash never run out and from the pajama gram company creators of matching holiday pajamas for the whole family including dogs and cats with Charlie Brown Star Wars and Grinch themes in its fleece and flannel available at pajama gram dot com. All things considered is supported by a branch from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting also supported by k.u.n.c. Members and by Tom mature and the mature law firm helping victims of brain injuries for over 30 years offices in Fort Collins Denver Boulder and in Casper in Cheyenne strength when you need it dot com This is k. Un c 91.5 really Fort Collins k r n c 88.5 Steamboat Springs d.n.c. 90.9 men turn them k.p.n. See 90.7 s. To spark and k m p p 90.7 Breckenridge. Pico Iyer his favorite season in Japan is I feel that make November which is when the autumn relief is in Japan is its secret enjoy Stockholm like the Swedes do stuck on is a very beautiful city it's 14 islands and it's water everywhere it's bridges and plan your trips like a travel writer it is anything you want to be on the next travel with Rick Steves travel with Rick Steves is coming up at 6 after living on Earth which is next here on. Don't forget Colorado gives day is Tuesday and you can schedule your gift of genuine c. In advance so you don't miss out had to to Colorado gives dot org can get started today and thank you very much. You're listening to k.u.n.c. . From Public Radio International This is living on Earth. Times deeper with tales of Wallace listen vigilante justice on the open ocean with Poser Prize winning author Ian Rubina I got a call from a source at Interpol who said they had heard about this thing going on got an article and it's the longest small coastal chase on the seat and it doesn't imply law enforcement is this conservation group or Chase or this Interpol Most Wanted chip and. I said wow that sounds epic let me try to see if I can get on board also restored of ocean farming for a sustainable food source and ocean how we can help from the surface vertically downwards right next to muscles and muscle songs scallop simple internets. And that's good because it has a small footprint very much like vertical farming in urban areas we'll have those stories and more this week on living on her stick around. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Jenny Herbst the f.b.i. Says it is investigating Friday's fatal shooting at a u.s. Navy base in Pensacola Florida as an act of terrorism agents say the designation gives them more tools for their investigation the gunman a 21 year old Saudi Air Force trainee purchased the handgun he used legally and Florida's governor Rhonda Santa says that news is concerning I had always thought that foreign nationals except for certain law enforcement just just were not allowed to purchase firearms but he says the gunman apparently took advantage of a federal loophole in gun laws Meanwhile the Defense Department is reviewing its screening procedures for foreign nationals who come to the u.s. For military training N.P.R.'s Bob Yellin has more federal investigators are trying to determine what motivated the military student to carry out the rampage inside of a Pensacola Naval Base classroom on Friday defense secretary Mark esper said on Fox News Sunday that the incident is also prompting a review of how foreign nationals are vetted before coming to the u.s. For military training my understanding is currently of course a review by department state their review by Department Homeland Security and they are reviewed by us and I want to make sure that those those procedures are full and sufficient The Pentagon has long allowed military officers from other countries to train in the u.s. Defense officials have defended the exchanges as investigators examine how the program screens for officers the Navy has identified the 3 victims who were killed trying to stop the gunman Bobby on n.p.r. News Washington the House Judiciary Committee holds an impeachment Pietschmann hearing tomorrow into President terms dealings with Ukraine to review evidence compiled by the House Intelligence Committee lawyers for both Republicans and Democrats will present their cases afterward the committee will decide whether it should move forward with articles of impeachment in Hong Kong tens of thousands of demonstrators marched through the streets today in the 1st authorized pro-democracy rally in more than 2 months and there is only thing has. Marchers dressed in black the chosen color of protest and others and more colorful winter clothing streamed into Hong Kong's commercial district by the thousands they shouted slogans like Hong Kong revenge and called on the city's Leader Kerry lamb to step down anti-government protests are now in their 6 month despite the withdrawal of an extradition bill that initially sparked the protests demonstrations have expanded into greater calls for direct democracy rule of law and greater autonomy from Beijing the March coincides with the United Nations Human Rights Day and as the largest The city has seen in months Emily Fang n.p.r. News Beijing business economists are forecasting economic growth to slow slightly this year and next but say they think the economy will not fall into recession the latest survey of $53.00 forecasters with the National Association for Business Economics shows expected growth of 2.9 percent to slow to 2.8 percent this year and then down to 1.8 percent in 2020 this is n.p.r. . In India at least $43.00 people are dead after a fire swept through a handbag factory in a can just in New Delhi neighborhood authorities say an electrical short appears to be the cause and are investigating whether the factory was operating legally the owner has been detained the Kennedy Center hands out its annual awards honoring excellence in the arts tonight Linda Ronstadt Sally Field and the producers of Sesame Street are among the honorees as are Earth Wind and Fire and Michael Tilson Thomas N.P.R.'s Elizabeth Blair reports honoree Michael Tilson Thomas leads orchestras around the world and champions American composers like conducting works by Aaron Copeland. Sesame Street is the 1st t.v. Program to receive the award the Kennedy Center says the show continues to revolutionize how viewers learn about the world and Earth Wind and Fire is being honored for songs that have bridged generations. The weekend for honorees. Includes a dinner at the State Department and a star studded show of tributes at the Kennedy Center Elizabeth Blair n.p.r. News Washington Space X.'s Dragon capsule made a delivery to the International Space Station today delivering mice pest killing worms and a smart and empathetic robot among other things but there was also a holiday cheer NASA says nestled into the 3 tons of supplies were Christmas presents this is space x. This 1900 to the orbiting outpost is the markets are trading higher at this hour the Asia dollar is up about one 3rd of a percent I'm Janine Herbst And you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from the George Lucas Educational Foundation creator of Edutopia an online resource dedicated to improving the learning experience for America's students with information and strategies about what works in k. Through 12 education learn more Edutopia dot org. You. From p.r.i. And the janitor in Ted Stanley studios at the University of Massachusetts Boston this is living on earth I'm Steve her would as government leaders scientists and civil society from around the world meet at the un Scott 25 climate change negotiations in Madrid some localities in the us are stepping forward to fill the gap left by President Trump's refusal to engage One example is Brookline Massachusetts an inner suburb of Boston with about 60000 residents Brookline is awaiting final state approval of a by law which would largely prohibit the installation of any new oil and gas pipelines in new or substantially renovated buildings this legislation will be the 1st of its kind east of the Mississippi and it is expected to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 15 percent for the town over the next 30 years here to explain is Lisa Cunningham Co petitioner of the bylaw welcome to living on Earth thank you so much for having me so you're an architect What are you talking about doing in a building that you might be asked to design to to get out of using natural gas so what you can do in terms of your heating and cooling needs is that you can use either air 1st the pumps or grounds for he pumps which many people refer to as geothermal right now these systems are cost effective and have been use frequently in buildings traction the big change is that air source heat pumps you. To be not a political ball for colder climates in terms of being able to heat in very low temperatures now that's changed and air swears he pumps can heat buildings to minus 15 degrees and for climb never gets that cold no ovo you had almost a unanimous vote in favor of this I'm sure there were some concerns that came up through the process how did you address those so you wind up with a virtually unanimous decision by the town that's a great question so we actually listened very hard to what our constituents and also what various stakeholders were sagging the questions that they had and then we actually came up with some exemptions to address people's concerns so one thing that we found out early on was that it's very hard to provide domestic hot water for buildings of over 10000 square feet so we've had an exemption for that we also made exemption 1st for restaurant cooking because we found out that although a lot of things are possible with restaurant cooking there are some pieces of equipment that still aren't there in terms of cost we also established a waiver process so that if there are certain projects the come up it's very easy to apply for and get a waiver so you see if I understand your town by law simply any new building or something that's being substantially renovated really has to come through some hoops if they want to have natural gas pipes correct you are allowed to keep your existing piping but you are not allowed to install or move new piping and what about the cost of this to what extent is this going to raise costs for people who are doing renovation or new construction Well we actually did a lot of research into this and to our surprise we actually found out that these systems are essentially cost neutral there's. A very little variation in terms of installation costs one thing that's also interesting as well is that for low income housing there's a lot being done in Brookline are ready to major building projects that have already started in town are installing air source he palms for their heating system and cooling the residents are thrilled because they will actually be getting air conditioning along with their heating and the low income housing authority in Brookline I actually made this decision prior to us bringing this Wired article to the town know I believe Berkeley California was the 1st city to have strong restrictions on natural gas to new buildings and there's been kind of a ripple effect what other cities and towns are you expecting to inspire with this move we are hoping to build a movement around this the only way we can reduce our carbon emissions is to stop using fossil fuels and so we're very much hoping that other towns and cities will follow us it's just makes no sense to install systems that will last for 30 years when we know we have to be ripping these systems out what role does climate justice play in this by law thanks for asking that question it's a very important question climate justice is a very important part of this bylaw we felt it was very important to make sure that underserved communities were getting the same benefits of this by law that everybody else in Brookline would get and we were completely satisfied by the fact that this is very affordable for low income housing and also as as you now our climate crisis disproportionately affects people who are at risk already and so this. A very critical part of our Wired article Lisa Cunningham was to cope with fission or of the Brookline Massachusetts by a lot of restricting natural gas in new and heavily reconstructed buildings Ms Cunningham thanks so much for taking the time with me today thank you so much it was a pleasure. Both the time in the program and we take a look beyond the headlines with Peter Dykstra Peters an editor with environmental health news that's each end dot org And daily climate dot org on the line now from Atlanta Georgia I think Peter you there I'm here Steve I want to talk a little bit about coal capacity and coal use around the world you know we've heard so much we've talked here so much about how coal is in decline in the u.s. Power plants are closing or converting to renewables converting their natural gas coal is also in decline in Europe in a big way but both of those declines which will help climate change are being offset by something that's going to cause more climate change and that's the China is building so much more coal power capacity that all of the gains in the rest of the world are negated you know that's not good news feed or what else to have I got some more not so good news from Siberia the Northeast Passage shipping route that's opening up with the melting Arctic along the Russian Siberian coast is going to be the site of some more traffic of coal ships India has a goal of drastically increasing its steel production they need anthracite coal to do that and one of the best untapped sources of anthracite coal is Siberian Russia so it sounds like the worse things get the worse things are getting. What else do you have today for us famous 8 Jakarta Rico and the Virgin Islands has stalled Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands of course were devastated by Hurricane Maria and hurricane Irma 2 years ago the Miami Herald recently reported that about one 3rd of the claims by Puerto Rican homeowners to fema to help them rebuild have been denied there's a tremendous amount of bureaucracy attached to this and a lot of people living with blue tarps instead of a real roof over their head from a hurricane that happened 2 years 2 months ago and now what's happened to rebuilding the electric infrastructure there in Puerto Rico well with infrastructure like the damage claims payments in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands are way behind what famous done in Texas and Florida but with electric You may recall that early on there was a scandal involving a 2 person firm called White Fish energy from Whitefish Montana they got a $300000000.00 contract to rebuild the Puerto Rican electric infrastructure the sperm happens to be in the hometown of then interior secretary Ryan sinky whitefish says they've already spent 126000000 of that $300000000.00 contract and that they've never paid they're suing the federal government and utilities that subcontracted to Whitefish is suing whitefish So it's a big big legal mast Yeah of course the contract was voided out I guess by the federal government but still somebody has to pay a what do you have from the history of all for us this week going to go back to December 5th 1848 What was the equivalent back then of the state of the Union speech President James k. Polk who is not known for a whole lot but maybe he should be known for saying something that jumpstarted the growth of the state of California and that was he talked about gold being discovered in California a space. Ific Lee at Sutter's Mill not far from Sacramento and here's what he said the explorations already made warrant the belief that the supply is very large and that gold is found in various places in an extensive district of country of course people like gold then and even now what happened $60000.00 people made it to California in the year 849 alone and bear in mind these aren't people who took the Transcontinental Railroad because there wasn't one they didn't take a relatively easy voyage should the Panama Canal because there wasn't a fan of Mark canal most of these folks went all the way around South America around Cape Horn and a journey that sometimes took several months so 60000 people. That was enough to make a state right that's right the beginning of $848.00 California was still Mexican territory it was ceded to the u.s. The Gold Strike happened later in the year the gold rush happened in 49 and by 850 California became the 31st state well that's history for you thanks Peter Peter doctors an editor with environmental health news that c.h.m. Dot org And daily climate dot org We'll talk again real soon Ok Steve thanks a lot talk to you soon and there's more on these stories that the Living on Earth website a large. Coming up the risky business of reporting about crimes on the high seas That's just ahead here a living on Earth support for living on Earth comes from sailors for the sea and Oceana helping boaters race clean sail green and protect the seas they love nor information at sailors for the sea dot org. This holiday season Coloradans have a unique opportunity to support non-profits that are important to them just like e un seat Colorado gets on Tuesday you can schedule your gift to k.u.n.c. In advance so you don't miss out head to Colorado gives dot org to get started today and thank you. Living on Earth is supported by can you in see members support also provided by small hill music a new session of group music classes including voice guitar piano violin who clearly and more begins the week of January 6th details that swallow Hill Music dot org Stay tuned for more of living on earth here on q. And c. Travel with Rick Steves coming up at 6. It's living on earth I'm Steve Irwin about 70 percent of our planet is covered by the oceans yet we know more about the surface of the moon than the deep ocean with such little attention from society it's also no surprise that lawlessness is rampant out on the open ocean with crimes ranging from illegal fishing to slavery at sea New York Times investigative reporter Ian Urbina spent a number of years researching and writing his new book The Outlaw ocean journeys across the last untamed front here at times he risked his life in his quest to shed light on the dark corners of our seas in recently joined me at the New England Aquarium there are Boston studios for a live event to share some of the story. And let me just start. By asking you the outlaw ocean to what extent do we understand that there's no law there I mean in this society we live where hey if you have a parking ticket they come for you and they boot your car I mean this is a whole system of accountability and yet out there there's not yester I approach this space both as a frontier and as an outlaw by which I mean an extra legal space it's not the case that there are no laws there are lots of laws but the laws are often written in a murky or contradictory way and then also laws are only as good as they are in force mint and especially on the high seas in international waters there's no you know police force that is out there patrolling So while there are isolated cases of enforcement there you decided to and forgive me at this point book in the ocean with stories about the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society What about their journeys stood out to you and especially to tell us the story of the yes or no for those who don't know the Sea Shepherd is this interesting organization self described as a vigilante ocean conservation group so organization that has a large fleet of ships and they go around the world patrolling and so the book is as you say book ended with 2 Sea Shepherd stories the front story is about Sea Shepherd's campaign to chase the world's most wanted illegal fishing vessel called the thunder and then the last chapter of the book is a look at a very different campaign which was Sea Shepherd harassing of Japanese whaling ships that are whaling arguably illegally on high seas and so the thunder the bottom line with this story was that there has been this purple Interpol list which essentially it is a sort of arrest on sight list and ships would be put on this proposed list if they had engaged in de Monsoreau repeat illegalities over a length of time and the thunder. Or by some metrics topped the purple list because it had well documented decade worth of illegal fishing largely in the Southern Ocean largely aimed at the how to go only into thinnish also known as Chilean sea bass and to the tune of $67000000.00 and Sea Shepherd said it's very frustrating that there is this list out there and yet these ships to a large degree are allowed to operate without difficulty they catch their fish legally or illegally they go into port they offload and they go on and no one ever arrest them Sea Shepherd said we'd like to do something about it we'd like to sort of show governments that we can find these guys and b. Then once we find them we're going to harass them and as different from their whaling campaign where they would actually ram the Japanese into more aggressive things on this mission Sea Shepherd decided we're not going to ram them we're just going to trail them and every time the ship attempts to enter port we will raise a stink you know contact the media embarrass the local government etc and the 1st task was let's start with the thunder tops the list we have find these guys Sea Shepherd did that within 23 weeks found the thunder nets in the water in illegal space in Antarctica and thus began this sort of epic tale of what became what some folks have said is the longest sort of nautical law enforcement chase in history and what occurred was these 2 Sea Shepherd ships the Bob Barker and the Sam Simon followed and harassed the 1000 or over the course of 110 days and over 10000 miles from Antarctic waters all the way up to the coast of Africa and spoiler alert ultimately after a chase that involves the thunder going through really perilous ice fields that most folks usually circumvent they went straight to the middle you know Category 4 storm that normally ships wait till it passes the thunder went through all trying to lose their talent sensually but at some point the Sea Shepherd guys saw the thunder guys putting their nets back in the. Water they cut the nets and took them and the thunder turned around and began chasing the Sea Shepherd guys in service this really dramatic escapade and ultimately culminated. Well if you were there though for part of this tell us how you get aboard this and what you do to get the story yes so I got a call from a source at Interpol who said hey have you heard about this thing going on down in Antarctica it's the longest law enforcement chase on the sea and it doesn't involve law enforcement and I remember thinking I don't even understand what that means but I'm interested you know and so I said Tell me more and he said it's this conservation group who are sort of self deputized as vigilantes and they're chasing this Interpol Most Wanted ship and it's getting really hairy and it's been going on forever and there are all these interesting shadow players involved and I said wow that sounds epic let me try to see if I can get onboard I contacted Sea Shepherd convinced them to help me think of a way for me to get on board the chase without obviously the ships couldn't leave their mark leave their targets so they couldn't come pick me up and then return because they'd lose their target and so we had to figure out a method for me to get out to certain coordinates that they likely were going to pass through and then they would quickly pick me up and fall back in line so that was a challenging task in itself and ultimately though we were able to get to those coordinates right at the deadline got on board and then I was embedded with them for a while so I could chronicle the story the story that ends with the thunder before you get to the end talk about how you got between the 2 ships to work on the story so imagine Navy level ships and they have high sides and so the Sea Shepherd vessels obviously don't want to stop at any point and so the photographer and I wanted to be able to chronicle the experience from both ships so we had to move back and forth between them and what that typically means is you get in a smaller boat and they have a crane that lifts the small boat and. Of puts it on the water while they're moving and then you climb down a ladder and you get in the fast boat fast but then takes you to the other side and you do the same thing in reverse and that latter process was definitely a hair raising and especially for my photographer The funny thing was when I was at the times and we had planned to fly this photographer from Brazil to Ghana where we were leaving from and we couldn't get a visa for him in time so my fixer in Ghana was this young guy who happened to tell me at the last minute hey I know how to click the camera do you want me to be your photographer and I said sure you sure you want to go to see I don't know what this is going to be like it's really and he said Sure why not so I brought him along and he was amazing but we were on the vessel and at that very moment when we were 1st going to switch vessels as he was climbing over the railing he turned to me and said You know Ian thank you so much this is been the experience of my life and I said You're quite welcome he said By the way I don't know how to swim. And I just never thinking geez this guy's life is going to me on my conscience so you know I think one of the most striking facts of your story though the Sea Shepherds really are breaking the law they are vigilantes So as you done the research for this work how often did you have to deal with these sort of morally and legally gray areas in some ways the target of the series was the morally and legally grey area and so as often as I was dealing with it I was spot on where I wanted to be and most of the more interesting characters in the book are in that gray space whether it's Rebecca Gompertz a character in the story who provides abortions using a loophole in international law to ostensibly legally provide these abortions here again kind of a textbook example of character who's using the law to beat the law Ok so you have to tell us the story it's a Rebecca Gompertz and a logical Dr Dutch citizen. Green freeze for a number of years and in that work saw some troubling situations with girls and women who needed abortion could not get access to them and search she started her own organization called Women on Waves which essentially for the past decade and a half 2 decades has operated a ship that goes to countries where abortion is both legal and often dangerous and she and her team come international waters into port usually shortish they quietly plugs into sort of an underground network of health care providers who know of cases of girls and women who are in need and then quietly brings these women and girls out to international waters and because the way that maritime law works such that when you're outside of national waters the law that applies is the law the flag that you fly and because her ship is flagged to Austria the minute the ship would get outside of national Washington international waters then it becomes legal for her to administer r.u. $406.00 pills that would cause an abortion so she would do this whole process very quietly then return the young women back to shore and make sure their entity was safe and then she would hold a press conference to sort of instigate a debate and that's usually when she would get kicked out of country. As you can for matches so I have to ask you another adventure story I think you said your mother swallowed pretty hard when you told her that you're going to Somalia. She was none too pleased. And not despoil the story necessarily but well you can tell us whether or not mom was right mom is always right for the record yes so I told mom very little about actually where I was going before I left I just said I'm going to go to Kenya and then I might depend to Somalia but that's as much as I said the other Somalia story was an example of a story where I went in aiming to tell one story which was actually going to be a good news story about a 9. Usual successful case of law enforcement where the Somalis and the Kenyans had gotten along and worked together and they caught these repeat offenders and I did everything by the book because there had been some really bad cases of kidnapping of reporters working on this very topic and so so I had permission from the key tribal leaders etc etc within a week of being in Portland which is mildly put sort of what Texas is to Washington d.c. Put me in as to Mogadishu in the sense that it is part of the country but no offense to Texans in the room but very proudly defiantly kind of autonomous and in Portland's case it's also the launching zone for a lot of the illegality so it's hard to write a book about the outlaw ocean and not go to Somalia and not go to put specifically but it's very hard to get into print when the roads are run by ISIS and so you've got to fly and you can't go by road and then when you're in there you've got to be really careful about who your security is eccentric shutter and I thought we had it all set up the short version everything went upside down we ended up losing our security being told we needed to leave but there was no plane out and we had no way to get out so we had to hide on the roof of our compound for a while until we could sort of sneak our way out and wait for a plane to come get us so there you are hiding on the roof you've ordered up some security to escort you out to the one plane in the next 2 or 3 days take us to that moment what do you hear it so I had a special satellite device I was still able to text with sources and the CIA has a drone base not far and I knew some people over there and there were no Westerners in our area and Shabab was moving in and blowing stuff up heading towards the compound where we were and I was getting a lot of intel that was saying there's a lot of chatter about you guys everyone knows you're in there and it's not good and you need to get out quickly but we had no way out and I had a fixed or it was American. Based in Kenya who knew the fish scene I had Fabio my Brazilian photographer and myself and the intel we were getting streaming in recess and you gotta get out your persona non-grata the pulling government said they're more than displeased with you because they don't want you investigating these type of assholes that are there and they're convinced you're CIA eccentric session then we started getting even more worrisome Intel which was that within our security detail we had about 20 guys there were folks who were loyal to the president personally and except for and so our threat was internal not just extra So then I got really nervous we had this meeting with the head of security at the compound and myself and the one guy that I really trust to a guy named t.j. Who is a tribal kind of figure and very loyal and probably saved my life and t.j. And I decided our plan was to make it look like we were still in the room because there's a courtyard that could see where we are saying leave the lights on pull the drapes make it look like you're saying there let all of our security go except for T.V.'s 3 cousins who he knew to trust and then we would quietly go to the roof and hide out there but very few people would know we were there and if a had occurred it would hit on our room and then we would do what I don't know I guess sort of try to run but where to these are not questions I had clear answers for so that's exactly what we did we had up on the roof for a final night and there was a plane that was going to be brought in early for us and we just need to mate get to the next morning and so we had up there for that night then the next morning our plan was to get certain guards that t.k. Could call in to help us get to the airport the roads from where we were to the airport were sort of very narrow roads you're in a fishbowl and these are the very roads that we would have to go through to get to the airport there was really only one route we would follow and everyone knew that there was one plane that had come in so everyone knew when those Western guys are. Going to leave the compound because there was one plane so it just seemed like a formula for us to get hit and so our hope was to leave really early with some reinforcements that plane didn't go well either because the plane said they were going leave early and we had to go with no guards and just sort of make a run for it and during our run we were stopped by to pick up trucks full of armed guys who were not in uniform and I thought we have these S.O.'s buttons on our i Phones and i had given the fixture in the photographer clear orders on if we got stopped them pulled out here's what we should all do and there we were stopped them being pulled out and that was you know kind of this the scariest moment of the time but in the end it turned out that these were tickets guys so we were very lucky and these guys sort of pulled us out check this out and then put us back in and we raced to the airport and got out just the airplane. I kissed the ground I kissed many people. I can't remember who. There's there's a line at the end of your book and it's going to be better in your voice this is from page $408.00 of the ocean yes so the ocean is outlaw not because it is inherently good or bad but because it is a void like silence is to sound or boredom is to activity what we have for centuries and braced and touted the life that springs from these waters we have tended to ignore its role as a refuge of depravity but the ol ocean is real as it has been for centuries and until we reckon with that fact we can forget about ever teaming or protecting this frontier so what's the fix what's the fix yes some say the ocean is just too big it's too vast to be brought to heel and he would say. I would say if I wrote a book about injustice right and someone said to what do we do to stop and justice I would probably say we start by not asking that question because it's too broad and I couldn't possibly answer at that altitude Similarly what do we do to fix the ocean that's kind of like how do we win the war and I would immediately say Don't think about the war just choose your battles and figure out which of the specific components of that war are the ones that you feel most made evaded to tackle right so again if it's ocean dumping or plastic pollution or murder or protection of seafarers or you know how we handle stowaways post 911 it war seafood supply chains I think the smartest move is to not think about the war I do think there are some solutions that are emerging that traverse the silos that sort of cross them that would benefit the environmental and the human rights and labor issues so for example if you think of the aeronautics industry if you were to walk up to a pilot of some $47.00 and say So you've called ahead they know you're coming we'll see you your entire route going to keep that thing on we know what car you're carrying We know everyone on board all their names are registered on both sides etc etc These answers would be readily and easily answered right in much of the world in the long haul fishing round if you asked boat captain these questions they would look at you like you were crazy to even be asking those questions so there is a cultural issue that needs to be confronted that's in the maritime space that allows this realm and those who operate in it a certain level of liberty that is a core problem in my view and so whether ships have a unique identifier a license plate that everyone. And see that stays the same and there are serious consequences if you attempt to change it that would be one step not being normal or allowed to turn off your transponder and in fact imposing transponders that you can't turn off at all Another thing that could be a big step forward these are lofty ideals difficult to actually implement but it could be a big step forward to like actually tracking who's moving what where and how and what's happening to the fish and the people that work there and I have to ask this as well through all these difficult situations share with us an uplift or there's a lot of beauty out there both in the space and the people that's why I often say like it's extralegal even sometimes it's purely evil but it's not always bad the characters I met along the way the sort of underground network of anti trafficking advocates who specialize in helping the slaves essentially debt bondage or even just shanghaied workers some of them shackled escape is really inspiring and often those guys are breaking loss. Rebecca Homburg types that are out there trying to use the law in creative ways and use the high seas in creative ways to help in their view I think are really impressive and then also just for all the gloominess of the reporting and the abuses that highlights for the most part the crew on these vessels some of them as young as 13 their will to survive their sort of scrappy ingenuity to make that time past their comrades 3 their sense of humor their work ethic is really inspiring they're not sort of down trodden somber faced even in the midst of really harsh conditions so I find those things inspiring interveners new book is called the outlaw ocean journeys across the last untamed front here in thanks so much for spending the time with us thank you thank you. Coming up the life and legacy of William Ruckelshaus the 1st e.p.a. Administrator of the United States just ahead here in living on or funding for living on Earth comes from you our listeners and United Technologies combining a passion for science with engineering to create solutions designed for sustainability in aerospace building industries and food refrigeration u.t.c. Companies such as Otis carrier Pratt and Whitney and u.t.c. Aerospace Systems are helping to move the world forward you can learn more about United Technologies by tuning into the race to 9000000000 podcast listen at race to 9000000000 dot com This is p.r.i. Public Radio International. Favorite season in Japan is I feel that which is really in Japan is its secret enjoy Stockholm like the Swedes do it's a very beautiful city it's 14 islands and it's water everywhere it's Bridge and plan your trips like a travel writer it is anything you want to be on the next travel with Rick Steves and that is coming up at 6. 100 supported by snowy range ski area 30 miles outside of. 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It's living on earth I'm Steve Kerr would as we've heard before the break life on the high seas can be unforgiving and even deadly but plenty of rough and tumble fishermen choose a life on the ocean a love of the sea in the adventure it can provide has been drawing in fishermen for generations one of them is Brant Smith Brant Smith left high school in when he was just 14 and took up work on fishing boats in the open ocean it is new book Eat like a fish Brown chronicles some of his adventures at sea and his new job farming and to be clear he's now an ocean farmer and founder of Green Wave an organization dedicated to sustainable and restorative ocean farming to learn more living honors lives Malloy caught up with friends with on the fishing boat in the symbol islands Branford Connecticut All right so can you tell us a little bit about your restart of ocean farm What are you doing here I used to be a commercial fisherman and over the years I've been on this journey to try to figure out what does it make sense to grow in the ocean and ask the ocean what do we grow like how should we farm it and if you ask the ocean that it says something pretty simple this is why did you grow things that you don't have to feed and don't swim away and so we're out here trying to reinvention aquaculture and grow a mix of shellfish and seaweeds and grow as many things that we as we can in a 20 acre area but not any species species that restore rather than deplete ecosystems or something like our help soaks up 5 times more carbon the lead based plants it's called the Sequoia of the sea or shellfish filter nitrogen out of the water column where our farms are really creating these really dynamic ecosystems that mimic Mother Nature. And why do you call it 3 d. Ocean farming so we call 3 d. Ocean farming because it uses the entire water column when you farm underwater if you just create a simple rope scaffolding system of buoys acres and ropes it's really cheap and it doesn't cost much money to start $1.00 of these farms. It's a really efficient use of space. Right now. We have. Really using every bit of water and that's good. You know very much like. A. Fishing village called right next. Door to door. And headed out to sea fish to Gloucester Lynn Massachusetts. Or then headed to the. Fish. And I was working at the height of industrialized fishing entire ecosystems with their trawls were chasing fewer and fewer fish further and further out to sea. For the fish sandwich. And sneak away to eat regularly. And I love that even though we were destroying ecosystems. Humility of be it in. That sense of solidarity of being in the boat work with other folks and that sense of meaning of my country. Crashed back in Newfoundland and it was a real wake up call for a whole generation of us and it's what taught me that protecting ecosystems. Birds and bees. It's about jobs it's about kitchen table issues like there will be no jobs. And that's when I cut the environmental movement in. Climate change. Jobs at a dead planet the planet I remade myself as. Salmon and that was the. We're going to feed the planet instead it was you know essentially pig farms out of water ways growing. Food and what point was trying to grow around existing markets people want to. That's what they grow. Up here Long Island Sound and remade myself as an oyster but it was just the beginning of early boutique sort of specially oyster companies emerging and I was right outside New York so I built a business around that and then. I redid Hurricane Sandy came in to destroyed my farm 2 years and suddenly I found myself in. A canary in the. Sense a 100 years earlier than we were expecting so that was you know a depressing time for 2 years and this is a new normal but it forced me to adapt you know and I think some of the best creativity of this gives me hope of the. Crisis. I just took from the oyster that question of you know what should we be growing in the ocean and there were thousands of edible plants hundreds of fish we could grow and that was the beginning. So in your book you. Are pretty. And I want to where did you find. Over the years what's been interesting is I started by working. And it turns out. The right folks to figure out what to do with vegetables like baking. Fish I discovered. Which people that specialize in making vegetables and healthy and I think Headlee New York who's a pastry chef. Superiority burger and he's figured out how to make. You know people. They don't even think. It's hard. We don't really have time. To make. Things like that we don't have. Something fascinating in the fifty's they sat down and said Ok we're never going to get America. Everything. There. Is so we could take. Because. 100 years. 58 percent reduction and put. Plastics. In the ocean. We could actually grow crops that we can turn into packages gives me hope if we do this. Through different industries and create jobs don't have to wait. Waters what we own is the right to grow shellfish and seaweeds anybody can swim fish on the farm and it turns out that if you start farming all these species together and. You're recreating you're just mimicking Mother Nature which then attracts these different species whether it's you know. Crabs it becomes this living ecosystem as a farmer you then just become a steward of this area and so we could mix both the ecosystem creating the parks that people can enjoy. Saving and protecting these community space I mean think of these underwater community gardens. So how did you really start becoming an advocate a. More common thing in the community. Active in the climate movement not out of choice who's because my job was directly impacted you know many farmers wiped out by hurricane I redid Hurricane Sandy was supposed to be the slow lobster boil that happened over 100 years instead it's it's here and now so I don't have a choice I didn't come to this is an environmentalist I came to this with the perspective that they're going to be no jobs no food on a dead like that I have a stake in this and I think the new climate isn't just about environmental it's people from all walks of life that are being impacted by this this crisis and all of us coming together to figure out solutions the 1st things we did was we took our boat down to the climate March in New York took a group of fishermen down there and I was amazed that you know we joyed the people to. Detroit we joined the coal miners who were trying to. You know and I just felt the 1st time like this is my community it's really interesting that you say that that felt like a real community I mean I think. One of the. So many people from different walks of life gather to figure out. I think. Where we're all coming together. You know. What needs to be done. Or we're going to build what are we going to do about waiting for other people to do this and for us to decide you know. Let's build the future. What's exciting is that it's a blank slate like we can actually do food right do agriculture the right way take . The lessons of industrial aquaculture and make the same mistakes we can weave justice into the d.n.a. Of this new economy and make sure you know young beginning farmers are. All have access to this new. Privatized make sure people do poorly cultured monoculture I think that's the exciting thing we can actually build a new economy for the ground up and do it in the right way and that's you know. So pretty crazy thing as a commercial fisherman and this is somewhat of a calmer lifestyle now. Yeah I mean it was rough right I mean you know I can't go to bars. I was out today and I pulled up this amazing. Farmer's a drink. This was the path for me. You know I sort of last generation of folks that the earth for food but I've had to say goodbye to it and I really had to rewire. But over time I've heard it is amazing feeling to lift a wall of plants out of the ocean and this sort of the shimmery sort of deep brown colors it really has has changed I do be a fisherman I miss that sort of adventure of the high seas the. Thrill of chasing fish around the globe but I still get to dial my bill one day like that's the measure and I'm out here on the movie and I'll be able to say goodbye to the world as I sink into the ocean like and I think that that'll be enough for me. Or I'm not going. To our visit with friends myth was reported by Liz Malloy and produced by plum adultery. Only one person has ever served as an administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency under 2 presidents and that's William directly House who died the day before Thanksgiving William Ruckelshaus was the very 1st a.p.a. Administrator appointed by President Nixon in 1980 and in addition to laying the foundation for the agency in defining his mission he oversaw the implementation of the Clean Air Act in 1970 soon after he was tapped to run the f.b.i. As acting director and then named deputy attorney general he was also fired by President Nixon during the Saturday Night Massacre for refusing to dismiss the Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox back in 2010 we spoke with William Ruckelshaus about his career and his reflections on how the e.p.a. Had its origins in Earth Day activism that put pressure on President Nixon to protect the environment to centralize that enforcement and regulatory responsibility of the national level made it much more difficult for industry just keep reasonable rules guiding their emissions into the air and water by running to a safe haven to some state they did not as strictly enforce the standards so I felt that we had to initially show the American people we were serious about this by strictly in Phnom only shutting the standers was strictly enforcing him to let people know that we meant business not you come back for a 2nd bite of the apple the e.p.a. When you become administrator again what is 1983 s. During the Reagan administration tell me why did you come back and what changed for you in terms of your sense of the agency's mission. I came back because the agency was in trouble and Burford who had been appointed by President Reagan had gotten herself in a whole lot of trouble as did other appointees they sort of. Bought the line that often is taken by Republicans in the administration that a lot of this social regulation regulates to protect health safety in the environment is an overreaction and the result of a sort of nanny state and t. Got in a lot of trouble as a result and President Reagan asked me to come back and help straight the agency now wait a 2nd you're a Republican. I guess I still am barely. I believe you did support Barack Obama for president Yeah that's right I haven't changed my mind all that much in the last 40 years but publican party shouldn't have moved what I think the Republican Party has done recently is sort of give up on the environment they don't really talk about it I don't think many of the candidates or even their constituents think about that often and I think that's a shame because these problems many of them are real and need to be addressed and aggressive way or we'll get real trouble. William Ruckelshaus the 1st and 5th administrator of the e.p.a. Who died over 27th at the age of $87.00 he will be missed. Living on Earth is produced by the World Media Foundation and our crew includes Naomi Ehrenberg Bobby Vasco Trent Thurston Briscoe Jenny during j. Feinstein Marilyn Hoshyar Mary Todd Lyman this boy Isaac Merson Ainslie O'Neill Jay Carney go and it's all going there and you no longer Omari Tom Tucker engineer our show Allison they're a team composed I think you can hear is anytime it ever weed out or it i Tunes and Google Play and like this please on our Facebook page here I was living on Earth. For managing our earth and can find us on Instagram a living on Earth radio I'm Steve her with thanks for listening funding for living on Earth comes from you our listeners and from the University of Massachusetts Boston in association with that school for the environment developing the next generation of environmental leaders and from the Grantham foundation for the protection of the environment supporting strategic communications and collaboration in solving the world's most pressing environmental problems support also comes from the Energy Foundation serving the public interest by helping to build a strong clean energy economy. Public Radio International. Living on Earth is supported by the 2020 International Film Festival bringing films filmmakers and film lovers together for a celebration of the art of cinema March 5th through the gift packs for the holidays or early bird passes and information that be f.-f. One dot com This is 91.5 Collins and c 90.9 in turn Vale. 90.7 Park. 88.5 Steamboat Springs and k. M.p.b. 90.7 Breckenridge. Colorado gives day your opportunity to make charitable holiday contributions on one easy to use website last year over $35000000.00 went to Colorado nonprofits just like a u.n.c. Schedule your donation in advance and support the public radio station you rely on with your end of year contribution at Colorado dot org. Japan is likely to surprise you especially in the new comers most struck by everything that's mud and west and then zany but just turn the corner as you know and funny and somewhere anxious and mysterious and full of spirit coming up Pico Iyer tells us why he thinks fall is the ideal season to get to know the melancholy heart of Japan among the Nordic countries Sweden has a distinctive person that big sister Sweden she is very close.