And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Please welcome peter burgen back to the Program Since he produced an interview 20 years ago, hes been tracking foreign and domestic threats to the u. S. Government as cnns National Security analysts. His latest text in paper book, the United States of jihad, who are americas terrorists and how do we stop them . Peter, good to have you back on the program. Let me jump in, what are americas homegrown terrorests and why do we never talk about them versus the other guys . You know, i mean, 9 11 was one of the events of American History and of course, 19hour Foreign Terrorists so i think the framing of the problem is mostly being this is a problem for people coming into the country. President donald trump, you know, talks about refugees and banning travel, but in fact, the problem now is really americans overwhelming all the lethal terror attacks in the United States have been conducted by american citizens. Its a domestic problem and of course, then you have also rightwing terrorists. You have we have just had recently in alexandria, virginia, somebody who appears to have conducted a leftwing attack. Critically wounded the House Majority. So terrorism comes in lots of forms but it is a domestic problem. Our defenses now for a Foreign Terrorist Organization trying to attack the United States are very high. Is that a mistake . Maybe mistake is the wrong word. Are we taking our eye off the ball . I think the fbi, the department of Homeland Security is keenly aware that the problem is a domestic problem and the fbi you can make partly in the back they have a lot of sting operations and some look at entrapment, even though its a legal matter, entrapment has never been successfully argued as a defense. The fbi does have an aggressive effort to go after people they think are radicalizing and thats their job and if an attack happens, the fbi or nypd who are often the people they get the criticism for not stopping the attack so its understandable. Yeah, i mean, the big difference on 9 11, the gate was open. We made it very hard for al qaeda, isis, the organizations to send people to the United States and do an attack. We cant stop the internet. And the whole this whole question about the travel ban i think is a solution to the problem that doesnt really exist. The problem is people radicalizing in their bedrooms with that they see online and that, by the way, the fbi has 1,000 investigations in all 50 states. The people attracted, they can be young kids in chicago. They can be a white female in denver, colorado age 19. They can be an African American guy who was a military veteran in ohio. There is is no real, you know, isis doesnt care what your background is and there is enough people sitting around for the isis propaganda to be successful. Ill come back to selfradicalize income a minute. If this is a home grown problem, why have we wasted so much time going back and forth about this travel ban . Why is that Donald Trumps solution . I cant speak for the Trump Administration but clearly a Campaign Promise and the worst thing in life so to belief in propaganda. The Trump Administration came to believe what they were saying, which this is a refugee problem. There are very few refugees involved in this and of the 400 plus cases i looked at since 9 11, maybe a dozen cases involve refugees. None of them involve lethal attacks. Its a red herring. The point is it was a Campaign Promise and this is not a guy that wants to back down from promises and multiple courts said they are constitutional problems. I would add to that there was an effectiveness problem because the countries, six countries where the travel ban might be imposed temporary, none of those citizens of those countries conducted a lethal terror attack of the United States. So its a solution in search of a problem that doesnt really exist and the real issue is how do you get people who are radicalizing to take the next step to coal mimmit a violent a . Thats hard. Until we have a machine to read peoples souls, there is nothing illegal of me being radical but there is, you know, the question is like at what point do i start becoming violent . That can be a pretty quick process. Yeah. So i saw just today google and youtube have come out and said they are going to become more aggressive in trying to take these videos down, take down anything on the internet that allows people to selfradicalize. Is that possible . Is there anything they can really do . I think they can. I mean, obviously the internet is big and there is a lot of material but google, facebook, you know, they understand, twitter, they understand that this is a problem. I mean, they also faced legal issues potentially. There are people who try to sue saying my family was killed by a terrorist influenced by what they read online or saw online. They havent succeeded so far but a legal liability question and of course, facebook and twitter are mayor cojor corpora and they want to be Major Corporate citizens and i think if you twitter has taken down several hundred proisis accounts. You cant take down everything. They will come back. This is better than doing nothing. What are the politics and how tricky are the politics relative to try to raise the issue that this is happening inside of our borders . Well, i mean, im not a politician, so i mean, i hear what you you see what im getting . I totally see what youre getting at. Were all the victims of the history we know and 9 11 was a very huge event in American History. So the frame that people have had is its people coming from outside doing things to us because thats what happened on 9 11 but in fact, in the 400 cases i looked at, some are serious and some are less serious, 80 of them were american citizens or american legal residents and all the lethal attacks conducted by american citizens. Nadal hassan was born in virginia across the bridge from washington d. C. Hes an amy say cpsychiatrist. It doesnt get more embedded than that when he killed 13 people at fort hood, texas and grew up in memphis tennessee, African American guy converted to islam, killed an american soldier in little rock, arkansas. His family Carlos Bledsoe in the u. S. Military since the civil war. Very american kid. So thats the problem. And luckily, its not a big problem because people radicalizing here tend not to get training overseas and not part of a large group and lone actors and lone wolves but can create omar mateen killed 42 people at a nightclub in orlando but he was born in queens, new york, which is where donald trump was born. Donald trumps mother was a scottish immigrant. Omar mateen was the son of afghan immigrants. How do you deal with that . That is the question, why cant this issue of home grown terrorism get the kind of tracti traction . Why cant we get that in public t discourse . Were beginning to get it. We had the attack not far in san bern dee know and one was born in pakistan. They kililled 14 people. Omar mateen was born in queens, new york. Its not a problem, its a scale we see in the United Kingdom or france but its a problem and also whats interesting to me is in quite a number of these cases, people have legally bought semiautomatic weapons despite the fact they have previously come to the attention of the fbi. One thing i find surprising is why cant we buy a semiautomatic weapon . That makes no sense. Too dangerous to fly, why cant you buy a semiautomatic weapon and peter kg republican from new york who i dont agree with, he has had legislation for the past decade which almost got passed after orlando which if youre on the nofly list, you cant buy a weapon. Even after orlando that couldnt pass. Were in a strange situation where one of the most common sense measures, it wouldnt solve the problem completely is to prevent people that have come to the attention of the fbi on the nofly list from not buying a semiautomatic weapon. You said it wont pass. Ill take it a step further, it wont pass because the nra is opposed to it and thats why it wont pass. Its total absolute. Does it make sense if youre on the nofly list you can buy a weapon . Makes no sense. Were at a place in politics where common sense measures. Ill come at this one other way. This drive this home. When you say you think well come into terms to the extend that when there is an individual story. Can you name for me any members of congress, and a speech given by the current president or former president can you name who is out front in this issue raising this issue and homegrown terror. Who is bringing this attention . Leaders are putting this situation in front . You said were coming to terms with it. Im not sure i buy that. Maybe i dont see it. President trump from the outside i think president obama certainly, i think, he recognizes it. The department of Homeland Security and i take your point. Im not actually i dont the public and media have something that has done to us by people who are foreign. Its not because im not yeah, yeah, yeah. Impressing this because i dont know how you address the problem if you dont know the problem exists. Is it nationalism . It is our arrogance . Is it our fear . Am i missing about the american psyche that wont let us wrestle with the question that this stuff is home grown. What is that about . Thats what im trying to get at. Thats a great question. I dont have a particularly good answer other than what ive already said. The framing of the way we see it is that its an outside problem and that is a reasonable framing. There have been other people you remember, the underwear bomber over detroit if he succeeded, 300 people have been killed on the plane. He did come from outside. He was a nigerian that spent time in britain. Its not totally unreasonable. The fact is the successful attacks are people who are already here. If youre a someone with terrorists background, it will be hard to get on a flight to the United States and meet up with other people and plot. The fbi is going to detect that. The kinds of thing that happen on 9 11 dont happen now. You cant have largescale plotting. Youre left with the people here radicalizing. So while this problem of selfradicalization gets worse, before we really come to terms. The news is that was a huge tragedy. It involved 19 people, 500,000. It was a largescale operation. That kind of thing happening in the United States i think is close. We are going to see lone wolves, with semiautomatic weapons who are able to kill people, you know, at some volume. That will continue. Thats not going to go away. By the way, that can also weve seen with the attack in alexandria, virginia, the guy who is a left wing terrorist who weve seen a number of black nationalists conduct lethal attacks in the last couple years. So were seeing not just jihadists attacks but people with other kind of political ideologies. How did the American People process what i think you just said and ill put it in a not so cute way. That unfortunately is i think true. I mean, but the good news is going to continue because we have a pretty polarized political environment. We have a variety of ideologies that are out there and we literally in the 70s and answers from other groups and its not the first time. You know, the truth of the matter in the United States government, whether the Obama Administration or Bush Administration or Trump Administration has done a good job of managing, containing jihadist threat as it existed on nec 9 11. Were not going to be attacked in a large scale way. The bad news is the ideology, the internet continues to spread it. Thats hard to stop. How disturbed were you and maybe you werent at all but how disturbed were you when we saw the most recent attack that injured of course the majority with steve scalise. This was a guy, mr. Hodgkinson, as i recall his name was a Bernie Sanders supporters, Bernie Sanders came out almost immediately and denounced this and cried this and said violence has no place in our society and yet, it didnt stop people from playing politics because the guy shows up at a baseball game and says is this the republican baseball game . They said it is. The shooting begins. Im asking how disturbing because if it can happen in either direction and every direction, how do we solve the problem . We live in a polarized environment, so its not surprising. Here is the first case of really relatively serious terrorist attack. We havent seen that for the 70s we seen a lot and launched tons of bombings and aso assassination attempts. The question other left, mostly been right the lethal attacks are neo nazis, far right, thats fairly constant since 9 11 that dont necessarily kill a lot of people. Now a left one. Now we have a left one. On the left there was environmental activists and right groups and they were really involved in property damage. Now we have an example clearly intended and clearly wounded. The question is is that a canary in the mine or one off . I dont know the answer. Clearly, we will see well have examples like this. Law enforcement cant track this. They can do a good job but people will get through. Most of the people that carry out these attacks have come to the attention of Law Enforcement. Hodgkinson in alexandria, virginia, he came to the attention of Law Enforcement activities because it was a fairly serious allegation of Domestic Abuse. In the end, charges were dismissed. Most of the point, most of these people have brushes with the law. The fbi interviews them and the fbi cant keep a case open forever. We live in an open society, free society. So i mean, it will continue and i do think and a reasonably good handle on this. If we had this discussion in 2002 and i said in the next decade and a half and prediction in 9 11. We cannot wipe it out. Thats not possible. Did the American People have any agency in this conversation . I think they do because who if youre radicalized or i am radicalized, so thats the people who whether its jihadist militants or far right people or far left, peers and Family Members have the most information and false politics. Peers and Family Members are reluctant to Say Something when they see something but the fact is they have the most useful information. I was about to ask, what does that turn us into . Thats exactly right. This is very difficult. If im a Family Member and i see one of my Family Members radicalizing, i have a difficult choice to say go to the fbi or organization but that Family Member could spend up to 20 years in prison if they are attempting to join isis. If i say nothing and they go to the airport and go to syria, they will almost certainly die in the civil war. Its a difficult question for families and for the fbi is now also going into talk to people. There was a woman in denver age 19, the fbi talked to her four times. Why dont you join a syrian charity . Youll do more for syria that way. She ignored them and got on a flight to go to syria. It doesnt always work when you try to reason is somebody. Some years ago there were some states that started going after parents for their kids that misbehaved in school and the government starts to go after people, Family Members and others who may have known or may have seen or should have known. In the orlando attack, omar mateens wife has actually charged her with kind of having some knowledge, some knowledge so, you know, yeah, i think its a legal issue. So it seems to me we all take issues more seriously when we get personally confronted with them. Yeah. Whats your sense of what congress will do, how they will act and behave now on this issue of hole grown terrorism given one of their own members has been shot . Thats a truly great question because i thought after orlando, the no fly, no buy semiautomatic weapons, there was a lot of moe memb momentum. I lived in the United States long enough to have the skepticism. He had a Domestic Abuse allegation and legally purchased a semiautomatic weapon, not a revolver. You know, hes not necessarily a really good case where omar mateen in the orlando attack, the fbi interviewed him in 2014 and 2015 before the attack. They you believunderstood he wa radicalizing. Why was it that he was able to go and legally purr chase pour semiautomatic weapons, which obviously enabled him to kill a lot of people quickly. To me, that makes no sense. I mean, on the other hand, we know that as you pointed out, the nra is a powerful force and Congress Seems very hand strung by this. So you dont see this changing, the conversation and reality of home grown terrorism, you dont see it changing the conversation about the gun culture in america . You know, if an attack on the House Majority in which hes critically injured does not change the conversation is hard. I talk, you know, sandy hook, all these kinds of we had so many you also have president obama that his the number of times he will have to go out and say sort of act as the kind of mourner in chief. So many mass shootings. None of them have really changed from what youre discussing. All right. Whats the longterm impact of this on the Muslim Community legitimately or illegitimately . Well, i mean, the great thing about the United States is we have the American Dream and the American Dream works well for muslims and worked for every other immigrant group and Muslim Americans tend to be dont live in ghettos and dont have the same average income as most americans. They are the same average education. They are well integrated. The good thing and everything ive said reverse in france where here is the telling statistic in france population is muslim. 60 of the prison population is muslim. Thats a very kind of disadvantage marginalized group. We in the United States, they have a much bigger problem in france. I dont think they will solve it. Generational problem. And we see in britain recently there is also a less extreme problem in britain. So we in the United States, yes, its a problem but its not a problem to the scale of which we see in europe. The book from peter burgen on paper back is called United States of jihad who are americas terrorists and how do we stop then in the extend that we can. Good to have you on. Thank you, sir. Thats our show for tonight. Good night from los angeles and as always, keep the faith. Captions by vitac www. Vitac. Com for for morp todaytodays shop todayto o rpjoin me forjoi jor jop john melljohn latest album. E you then. An at av at a viewers like you. An at av at a viewers like you. Thank you. Today on americas test kitchen bridget prepares the ultimate thickcrust sicilianstyle pizza. Becky shows us how to make homemade ricotta cheese. And julia makes pasta with cauliflower, bacon, and breadcrumbs. Americas test kitchen is brought to you by dcs. Dcs manufacturers of professionally styled indoor and outdoor kitchen equipment
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