And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Pastor and bestselling author rob intel no stranger to controversy. In 2011, his book love wins prompted an outcry amongst his former michigan Congregation Church he founded in 1999. Then he stepped down as pastor but didnt step away from the controversy. Hes back with another controversial paperback called what we talk about when we talk about god. Rob, great to have you on the program. What a great title, what we talk about when we talk about god. Is talking about what . I would say when we talk about god were answering or asking the question what kind of universe are we living in. And most people have a story thats guiding their life. A narrative. And the word god is essentially the word we use for whatever it is thats the thing been the thing. The thing that undergirds it all. So is the universe a cold, dead, lonely place, or is there love . Are we on our own, or are there forces or a greater force thats on our side . I think god this word means so many things to so many people. But i think its the word that we use when were trying to get at what do you believe is really going on here . Whats the thing that guide everybody else . Whats the story about why were here, what matters, and where is it all headed . If i take that and do for the sake of this conversation, where are the answers found . Thats the thats why you write lots of books. A friend of mine says the interesting thing about god is god is that was which what can you say . What can you know . And yet god is that was which you never stop talking. Theres this pair dock at the heart of this discussion paradox at the heart of this discussion. Were talking about that which is infinite. Yet, were talking about what is it that gets you up in the morning. A sense that you have a calling or purpose or a vision for your life . So it is both the widest thing you, talk about and the most specific, narrow, what gets you out of bed in the morning. Yet for i dont want taos pu to say purist but believers for lack of a better word, for believers, though, god cant just mean anything. Its a bastardization of who and what the spirit is if you want to make anything and everything god. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thats whats interesting. All doctrine and dogma begins with mysticism. All doctrine and dogma began somewhere back there somewhere. 500 years ago, 3,000 years ago, with somebody having a genuine experience with the divine. Somebody having experience of that which cant be named, but they spend energy trying to name it. A sense of love, a sense of grounding, the great paul tillic, thieologian said youre already in the midst of. The apostle paul talked about in god through whom we live and move and have our mean. And one of the things i try to point out is for a lot of people god is somewhere else. Old man, long beard, robe, on a cloud. And then what happens if god is somewherele, you have to have discussions about does god come here or not. Does god show up or not. And then sometime what religion become is how do you get that god whos somewhere else to come here and do certain things. In the scriptures, the picture is painted in a much different way. Like jacob, book of genesis wakes up by the side of the road, after this dream and says god was in this place the whole time. I just wasnt aware of it. This awareness that we are that god is already present. Yeah. To your point now that gods present, what does the book have to say about this biblical edict that god is a spirit and that those who worship him worship him in spirit and in truth . Yeah, yeah. Whats interesting, the modern age, we had this explosion for the past 300 years of enlightenment scientific thinking. That which you can access with five sends. Can you test it with sends. Can you test it in a lab . Can you prove it . Most of the thing that guide our lives cant be accessed with the five senses. You hold your first kid. You fall in love. Try explaining that according to data or merit. Its the thing thats are most real to us. We can never things that are most real to us we can never prove according to standard of modern science. In the modern world it gave us hospitals and 10,000 songs in our pockets and airport. But the problem is for many it didnt give us good language for spirit. For that which is real, but you cant yeah. What do you make of that . First off, i think a lot of the attack is legitimate because its attacking bad religion. Religion that didnt care about the widow, the orphan, the powerless. You know what i mean . Its attacking dogma. Sometimes its attacking life will things that should be attacked. Oftentimes when im interacting with atheist friends and they talk about the god they dont believe in, i dont believe in that god either. Secondly, one of the things that came with the beautiful explosion of scientific exploration is this reductionist view of the universe which is you are just the sum of your biology. All there is is that which you can touch and matter. I think what happened in the modern world is a lot of people is on thaund sma this sound is alluring, but it leaves you empty. It leaves you with, yeah, about what about all of those experiences i had . We talk about how a meal is transcendent or the soul made my soul soar. We shift from specific language to poetry and image and metaphor, and then essentially were saying i keep having experiences that point me beyond the material. And the problem with the denial is it ends up sounding very smart, but leaving you with a, flat world. Almost black and white instead of color. And thats what i think has happen. People have critiqued this bad religion thing that gave us a god that doesnt really give life. Then theyre left in this place of, well, theres none of that. But it still leaves people without language for their very real experiences of what you and i would call spirit. Speaking of language, what is the language . For those who want to talk about god and know what they feel and what they mean and sense. They know what theyve experienced relative to this force. How do those square god with science . What is the language if you dont want to deny god but dont want to deny science . I take about them being long lost dance partners. In the modern age, you had people who would say, well, faith goes this way and science, they go away from each other. They cant be reconciled. But if i walk away from you, the opposite direction, i keep walking, at some point ill go around the earth and come back to you. I think whats happening is theyre starting to come back together. The best scientists when you read their interviews carefully, what did they really say . Wow. The very best scientists are the ones going, we just discovered this higgs boson, but it brings up questions about subatomic particles. Theyre filled with wonder and awe. And the best theologian, the one we respect are fill with worn and awe. Like look at this world, how electric it is. Whats interesting is you can take the scientists and theologians, theyen up filled with this widesighed send of worn and awe about wideeyed sense of wonder and awe about this. Look what were discovering about science and universe and theory. Theres a wideeye sense of were just Getting Started here. Yeah. A question this could be a question that could lead a thousand different places. Im trying to get at something specific. Let me see if it makes sense. For the writing of this text or what prompted you to sit and write this text, what did you learn what have you learned about god that you wanted to share in this book. Were always learning thing about god. I assume there must have some revolutions that you came into that made you want to write the text what did you learn about god that you wanted to be a pastor for 20 years and realizing that the labels, agnostic, atheist, believer, everybodys human. And everybody wants to know what kind of universe were living in. And everybodys living according to a story. And that when we talk about god, what were trying to do is put language to the story that were living according to. So some none of it matters, you die, its over, the universe is a cold, dead place. Thats a story you can live with. But the stoquestion is which st bring you the most life . Which story has the compass 270 transform you into the the capacity to transform you into the person you want to be . Which story make you more loving, courageous, compassionate . A lot of time the religion discussion is a masquerade for the real we can what convictions and beliefs actually have the capacity to make us the kind of people who together can make the world a kind of world we all to be . Is that your way of saying you dont believe there is a a universal definition of god . What unights them all is ultimate reality. What undergird them all . I was trying to say i believe that god is with you. That there is a presence. I believe this god is for you. I dont think the universe is a cold, dead place that is indifferent. The great writer frederick beakner said some people think the universe is indifferent to whether we sink or swim. To a firm spirit is to believe that god wants you to swim. Then i use the image of the god who is ahead. For many people, god is primitive, behind, trying to drag everything back to someco prehistoricnr era as opposedconr spirit, force, love, drawing us into anr better future. Which to me is not that storied its doneni something in me, and ive seen it do thing in other people. Okay. The new book from rob bell isni ut talk about when we talk about nrgod. And like anything else hesco written, im sure there will be a lot of conversation on. Congratulations on the new text. Thank you verq uch for being on the program. Thank you. Next gil scottheron. It will the revolution will not be televised. Gil scottheron is best known for his 1970 the revolution will not be televised. He encap congratulate a turbulent era with things such as the bible and johannesburg. Now his complex life is the subject of a critically acclaimed text writtenni by mars baram, pieces of a man. First, how his music define an era. You will not be able to stay home brother you will not be able to plug in turn on and cop out you will not be able to lose yourself and skip out for beers during commercials because the revolution will not be televised let me start with the obvious. You are the editor, managing editor of the International Business times. Yet, youre writing a book go il scottheron. Why . People ask that a lot. Because for me this of a labor of love. I felt like it was something i had to do. My background is journalism, hard news, business politics. But for over 25 years, ive wanted to do a book go il. Why . Because hes a book go il. Why . Because hes such an important seminal figure. Bringing politics and social awareness to music and an audience of millions. Then he kind of disappeared in the 80s. People forgot about him. I wanted to pay tribute to his legacy. Thats something i dreamed about since the early 90s when i first saw him in concert. I always thought in the back of my mind, im going do a book about him one day. It those watching who dont know and are asking who was gil scottheron, how will you answer that . Another good question. I mean, what i will say you, use a shorthand, the black bob dylan, you could use the godfather of rap. What i will say is this figure who merged politics and social awareness and commentary with newscast, with a beat. With a funky beat. I mean, there were songs about apartheid and racial injustice. And all kind of big political issues that he was able to bring to the masses through music. And very few artists could do that where he was a poet who, you know, through music just spread the message and commentary and knowledge to millions of people. The shorthappen definitely explains it t when you say hes the black bob dylan. Many people said that although gil hated that. Would talk about that in a second. But when you say the black bob dylan, how would you define or describe his writing, his lyrics, his poetry . I mean, gils poetry influenced by Langston Hughes, a hero of his. It was about pointed commentary like, you know, bringing a poignant feel issues in the kmeent, issues which resonated by him, his own emoeth growth, ups and downs, talking about what was happening in the streets. That was a big issue for him. He talk about how in high school he was asked to interpret a poem. They talked about it it was in a theoretical level. He wanted to do street poetry. He wanted to do poetry that talked about big issues, that somebody who was not educated could understand. You wouldnt need a ph. D. To not where hes coming from. Every artist struggles i guess with this at this point in their career, certainly most artists do. What was the struggle that gil encountered wanting to do what he wanted to do in the way he wanted to do it versus somebody else wanting to commercialize his message. I know he had that fight. Yeah. He did. He did a lot. He was signed by donsigned in the mid 70s. He was fighting back again the studio because gil of stubborn and wanted things his way. There was pressure from the music industry, he didnt want to bring in r b producers, to make is sound more pop. To bring in producers. He pushed back and wanted to do his own thing, make his own music. What did clive dave i think he could do or what did he see or hear when he order . Gill he never held his tongue. What was clive expecting to do . Clive is a jean jus. I think he all is genius. In a way i think he saw bob dylan. He wanted to promote hip as the black bob dylan. He also saw gil as a voice, we havent seen this before. This is new. We have somebody talking about political issue and doing it with a beet that you can dance to in the clubs and with the r b sound. And clive saw potential. He thought gil could be a huge artist. He would see gil in con interstate new york and of blown away. And stevie wonder, he was a good good night to sign. What happens in his life that pushes him or opens the door to be this iconic art scientist. A lot of things. He grew up in tennessee. Banded by his parents. His father was simply a pioneer because he was the first black soccer player. He was banded by his parents and raised in. And h and his grandmother woud say that. And he got into poetry, writing. At Langston Hughes alma mater, he met a group of musicians. People who all shared the same vision, politics. They wanted to bring their message to the people. He thought, wow, i can do this. Poetry isnt going to be enough to reach enough people. If we do music and get a roar deal, then i can reach millions. I mentioned earlier the obvious. The revolution will not be televised. If theres one thing that gil is best known for, i suspect thats it. Was he okay with that . Every one of us has to be comfortable at some point with how we are defined amongst all the stuff that weve done. Of he comfortable with that being the thing that everybody but him for . I mean, he was because it was such a politically opponent song. He did always potent song. He did always talk about how people misunderstood the song. People thought it was the revolution will not be on tv. When it happens, its not going to be on your television. What he meant was that you have to be active. When the revolution comes you cant be sitting as a passive observer at home and watch it. You. Have to be an active participant, be in the streets organizing, protesting. He was always frustrated that i think it would husband him for headlines and use it in the wrong way. But he was very proud that was all the songs me rote thats one that people stick with. Its appropriate right about now. It is. Ill tell you, ive seen ever since the ferguson verdict, the eric garner verdict, ive seen people tweet that thousands of times, protest signs. In the ukraine, tahrir square. For decades now that motto has appeared on protest signs. Its become part of its been an inspirational man t al maal. You have two slashes . Yes, he did. Yes, he did. What happened to gill. Like hes such a shining star and charismatic. More than that why was he the he wrote angel dust. He was so conscious of drug addiction. How, he him get hooked . Theres a long answer. But the short answer is that he had a really emotional gap inside of him. He was booned by his friends, he abandoned by his friends, he it difficulty expressing emotions to people around him. He, do it in songs, lyrics, but couldnt talk about the pressures he faced. Either the put on a pedestal talking about the revolution and political pressure to be this leader of the protest movement. Musk industry pressure to produce hits. He sought escape. Like a lot of musicians, drugs are available everywhere. And because of his physical constitution, some people can do a few line and smoke a joint and theyre fine, and he cooperate. Some people say Richard Pryor spent the time freebasing and got hooked on crack. Basically he a functioning cr k crackhead for the last 20, 25 years of his life. When did you meet . I became a big fan in college. When i moved to new york as a school teacher, i had to see him life. He was amazing. When i first saw him, i was like theres dozens of books about bob dylan, jazz giants, and nothing about girl. Ohare needs to be told. We comet him and younr i always wanted to do his story. I had to do it. Situate him for me in the pan than of the great artist. I think he is this pivotal figure because he comes between when r b became more politicized. You have marvin gays do whats going on. And then you a hiphop in the 80s. And the two eras, he is a pivotal figure. You could do poetry and talk about big political inch and problems and injustice, it doesnt have to be dry, look in the pantry, it doesnt have to be recitation, monologues. People were dancing to hes an amazing artist, but this conversation is, his ears, poetry, and pieces of a man. Congratulations. Great to be with us. Things for having us. That is our program. And as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavissmiley pbs. Org. Join us next time for the Great American songbook. Thats next time. See you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Next on newsroom. Bumpy road for services from uber to fly wheel, Disruptive Technologies changing transportation and sparking lawsuits. Coverage california, reaching out to insure 2 million more in the state. Plus founder of the webby awards and impact of technology in our lives. The key thing is that we have created. I think we need to feel like we have more agency in how we use it