And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Feinsteinator dianne has said that the cia allegedly spied on congress to thwart its investigation into cia wrongdoing, including the use of advanced interrogation practices, also known as torture. It has erupted into charges that the cia has violated the constitutional guarantee of separation of hours. Joining us from new york to talk about these allegations and implications for the future is tim weiner, former National Security reporter for the New York Times and author of the bestselling text legacy of ashes. Speaking of the history of the cia, does this surprise you at all given their history . It does not get a lot worse than this. This is the most serious hostages in a confrontation between congress and the cia since the cold war. The most serious constitutional confrontation between congress and the cia since the cold war. Run a, the United States, secret Intelligence Service under the rule of law . Tavis one at a time. First, the moral problem is what . The moral problem is that for the duration of the george bush presidency from 2002 to the day president obama banned it in his first day of office, the United States ran a global system of dark sites, secret prison cells, torture chambers. People were tortured. Some people died. The question at hand is this. One, are we ever going to do this again . Are we going to ban this forever . It by ant just ban executive order signed by the president. Two, does torture work . The cia says it does and that they got valuable intelligence. But the report that the senate has issued says no, it is not an effective technique. People will say anything to stop torture. So we have got to resolve that. Third, we have got to publish this thing. This is a 6500word pardon me, 6500page report. The executive summary might be a couple thousand words. It has got to be published. The people responsible for this and i will list them by name if you wish, need to be sworn under oath and we need to get to the bottom of why we conducted this program and to what end. Tavis i am anxious to get to that question, but i cannot pass up an opportunity like that. Fire away, name names. President bushs 3 directors of central intelligence, porter gauss, george tenet, mike hayden, the man who ran the clandestine service, jose rodriguez, who destroyed videotapes of the torture it in number three man, the executive director whose name is dusty foggo, sentenced to prison for fraud and his conduct in office. These people need to tell us how they ran this program, why they ran this program under oath on whether they got actionable intelligence. Tavis you know as well as i do, that list notwithstanding, that part of what is wrong with the obama administration, frankly, and what is wrong with every president ial administration, is that it never turns the tables on the Previous Administration. Even if it is a guy that you ran against and you beat him in an ugly contest, one president ial Administration Never looks back and hold the Previous Administration accountable. I love your list, but you and i both know nothing will happen here. It is the senate that must convene these hearings. They have a constitutional obligation to do it. If they do not do it, we have to question our ability under law to run a secret intelligence tavis i am only playing devils advocate because you and i agree here. That kind of boys and girls Club Mentality sticks to capitol hill. With all respect to diane feinstein, who outed the cia, she had been babysitting them for years. The cia has run amok for some time now. Dianne feinstein, as chairman of the committee, has been their staunchest defender in the media. Now she wants to slap them publicly and i am not mad at her. How do you expect the senate to hold hearings on this . The watchdog barked. There is a reason for this. It is a complicated story, but the cia has essentially been using extralegal and improper techniques to try to block this report. That is what put her over the line. That is why she got up and made that speech. If we, as a nation, cannot act on this if we are going to say, lets just turn the page on that well, you cannot turn the page if you have not read it. If we do turn the page on this without having read it, we are going to do this again in some other crisis, in some other time, under some other president who has a different moral and constitutional attitude than barack obama. And it is a stain upon the honor of the United States and that stain must be outed. Tavis the argument for why the documents are never released is an ageold argument and you know it, National Security interests. Tell me how these should be released if they will argue National Security is at stake. What is at stake is not National Security. We know what went on. What is at stake is national embarrassment. You can publish the executive summary of this document and the only thing that is going to happen is the people who have blood on their hands are going to have to show their hands to the world. Tavis how hard should the media it is their responsibility to hold the cia responsible and it is our responsibility to hold all of them accountable. How hard should the media push on this and are we seeing an aggressive enough push to uncover this . I am not. This is not a oneday story. This is a story about how we run our affairs as a nation under the rule of law. And what our standards are. Torture is a stain on our national honor. We must account for this. We must come clean. If we do not, it is going to happen again. Tavis what is the Bush Administration culpable of and complicit in and how does this go into the obama years . This program, which, lets remember, involved torture, secret prisons, kidnapping, and killing, ended on the first day of the obama administration. He banned it. The people who know what happened that could be called to account served under president bush. In order for this to come clean, those people should be called to account, they should be sworn under oath, and they should be threatened with slammer time, because those are crimes against the laws of god, the laws of man, and the laws of the United States. Tavis what about john brennan . What is his role in the process . The current cia director is trying to juggle about 13 balls here. He has the president ial balls, he has the congressional balls. He has the cia balls. He has the legal balls. He is trying to prevent an outcome that could either destroy the reputation of the cia or damage its ability to conduct counterterrorism in an effective way. I have a lot of sympathy for the guy. He is a cia lifer. He was involved in some of these programs. But he believed, and i trust him at his word, he says he believed that they were wrong. He ought to testify to that too. Tavis there are some who will watch this and say that you sound awfully harsh on the bush people, but you sound awfully charitable and generous in your words about john brennan. Not everybody in washington sees him how you see him. Well, that is true. He has a very good reputation. He is a straight shooter for a guy who spent his life in the cia. Where it is your job, i should remind you, to lie, cheat and steal overseas tavis you say he is a nice guy. This is the same john brennan reported evidence about drones. He danced around questions, even at his hearings. These are drones that are killing innocent women and children around the globe and this is a nice guy . Drones are a different issue than torture. Tavis it is a different issue, but it is the coverup i am getting at. I do not think you can cover this up, the torture program with secret prisons, for much longer. Tavis we will see in the coming days. This issue, again, is not going anywhere. The media has a responsibility, i think, in this matter, to make sure that we get to the bottom of this. It is not a oneday or even a oneweek story. Thank you for coming on the program and thank you for your insights. Thank you for having me. Tavis coming up, oscarwinning Actress Marlee Matlin. Stay with us. Tavis oscarwinning Actress Marlee Matlin refused to take no for an answer, breaking down the barriers faced by her disability. She made her acting debut in children of a lesser god and won an Academy Award. Since then, she has gone on to win a golden globe and recently 4 emmy nominations. She has worked on various series , including seinfeld and law and order svu. She is currently in switched at birth, playing the role of a guidance counselor. Lets take a look at a scene. Why would you do that . Tavis so it is good to have you on the program. Thank you so much. Tavis this is not typically how we watch television. We see movies with subtitles, but we do not typically watch television this way. There is something about this rogue ran that is taking it work. The numbers are huge for this network. What is making it work for american audiences . Well, obviously, it is the first time that you get to see a network that has allowed deaf characters to be part of a scene entirely like this. For people who do not know American Sign Language, you are able to feel what it is like to be able to watch. For those of us who have watched television along with subtitles. And i think it is a brilliant means of programming. It is compelling and makes it very compelling for everyone to watch. Regardless of whether you are deaf or not. I think it has broken down barriers. It really has. For such a long time, i have struggled to try to get on equal footing in terms of access to show a Television Screen that has deaf characters there. Tavis speaking of closed captioning, i should bow down to you because you amongst other people, certainly you were very aggressive and progressive about these national standards. Everything on pbs and everywhere else on tv these days is closed captioned. That is, in large measure, thanks to the herculean effort you made on capitol hill some years ago. It was an effort that was needed. Pbs was the First Network to closedcaption. They got it. It was a long time coming. I grew up watching television with my family, not understanding what was going on or what was being said. My parents and my brothers would laugh at certain things that were being said. They were watching a cop show and i would have to ask someone to interpret for me. When closed captioning came along, just the beginning of it, before it became law for all networks to have to closedcaption, i had to make up lines with what people were saying on television. Tavis sometimes that may be better. [laughter] maybe you are right. Sometimes i can get away with it. I can understand. The first show that came on was threes company. I tried to find other shows that had captioning and every once in a while there would be. I went to capitol hill to lobby and ira member each one of those senators saying yes and i was a changed woman. I have to say, i was changed. Tavis how much more difficult does it make your job as an actor you won an Academy Award, so clearly you can do this, but how much more difficult does it make your job to emote and get across what you want to get across on screen when you have to sign it . I think i am more expressive, so i do not know if it is more difficult. I use my body more than people who speak. I think i come naturally to that. It is part of who i am and part of my culture. That is one advantage that i have in being deaf because when i watch movies or television and i see an actor, i look for them to express their authenticity. Everyone delivers a line, certainly. They use their voices and have their tones and expressions, but i want to see it in their face and their body. I want to see how it matches what they are feeling. Tavis it is a fascinating phrase that you use, this notion of the advantage that you have being deaf. Are there other advantages to being deaf . Well, i sleep very well at night. Tavis [laughter] of 4, so thatmom works. There is technology that deaf people use when the baby cries that allows a light to flash on when a baby cries. Sometimes i would get away with it and i would turn off the light. Tavis [laughter] my husband would have to go up and get the baby crying and i did not hear anything. That was a big advantage for me. And i did not have to hear all of the obnoxious people. I do wish that there was one thing i could hear and that is my kids voices. But that is ok. I can see them with my eyes and i can hear them with their eyes. It would be nice to know what they sound like, but that is all right. I am not crying for myself here. There are no tears. Tavis for those who have not seen the show, tell me about the role you play as a the guidance counselor. Well, i am a guidance counselor and a mom of a teenager who stars on the show. He is a great actor. The show was not originally written with the deaf character in it according to the executive producer. She was working on two girls who were switched at birth. The network said, lets find something to do. Not only of kids who were switched at birth, but one who is deaf, one from a poor neighborhood and one from a rich neighborhood. What is great about the show, you have a great deal of diversity. They use American Sign Language, they have deaf culture, all kinds of different ways of communicating. And they do not dwell with what it is like to be deaf or they do not see themselves as victims. That is what is great about the show. Teens love the show. I have gained a huge audience that i have never had before. I am walking down the street with my kids and the kids are like, oh my god. I am like, wait a minute. Tavis what about this storyline do you think resonates particularly with the young . What is so relatable . Well, i think you are asking a question that has a lot of answers, so i will try to be brief. The storyline of having my character educate these kids about the importance of going to college, the importance of setting your goals and what you want to be in the world. As a person who happens to be deaf. That is certainly relatable. My character says i could do anything except hear. The first president of the college for the deaf said that. I can do anything except hear. For people who have never seen American Sign Language or deaf culture or even a deaf character on a show like this, it is a great lesson for them because it is relatable. It is important to understand that there is more to life than what is out there now. Tavis i always feel like i should have and i should learn how to sign. I have been in any number of conversations with people who talk about the difficulty in learning certain languages and they say that english, our language, is the most difficult to learn because we have so many words that mean the same thing. How difficult is it to learn to sign . It is like learning any other language. However, being that American Sign Language is very popular, particularly in high schools, you will find more and more sign language classes being offered in high schools. It is very popular at the College Level too. High School Students are attracted to it and they are signing up for it because it is such a beautiful, expressive language. It is not international. If you meet a person from another country, they are signing in their language and it is a different language. All of them are different. But deaf people who run into other deaf people from other countries, we use our bodies to communicate and we can do it a little bit better than you can from hearing people. And i developed an app called marlee signs. You can put that on your iphone and you can learn sign language. Tavis i have an iphone so i should download your app. I think i will. How crazy was this bogus sign language guy at the mandela how crazy was that . It was insane. He was embarrassing. Listen, the bottom line was that i felt for the people of south africa, the deaf people who were unable to understand him. They were so excited to be able to participate in the funeral of this great man and his celebrate the life of mandela. Yet to be duped by this fake interpreter is probably the worst thing that could have happened to them. They were robbed of the beauty of the service. They were robbed of all of those dignitaries who were speaking on mandelas life. They were robbed. They were robbed. Hopefully that will never happen again. Tavis a terrific conversation tonight with Academy Award winner and Golden Globes winner, emmy nominee, mother of four, got her own app, our friend marlee matlin. The show is called switched at birth. It is on the abc family network. Congratulations and great to have you on the program. Thank you very much. Tavis and i should introduce you. This is jack. Rex that is ok. Marlee says she is prettier to look at anyways. Thank you so much. Tavis nice to have you both on. That is our show for tonight. Thank you for watching and as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Tavis hi, im tavis smiley. Join me next time for a conversation with Barry Manilow and Bruce Sussman about their new musical harmony. That is next time. We will see you then. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Be more. Pbs. hello and welcome to this is us. Im becca reed. A you tube sensation when they posted a thank you video to the preponderate. We there take a look at the video, and we will find out why people are willing to stand in lines a block long to get this ice cream. Later we meet legendary surfer who has been on the job 50 years. Weve got a lot of stories and it all starts now
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