Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20170111

Hour, next. Rose mr. S captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Ecretary, this this journey, this part of your life is coming to an end. Let me talk about iran first. Sure. Rose how do you view that that the primary legacy for john kerry . Well, i dont think there is any one thing, if i can say, respectfully, that is the legacy. I think the legacy is several fold, i mean to the degree there is a legacy. But these four years have been defined by a world around us that is going through massive transformation. Some people confuse that transformation with sins of omission or commission by an administration, but, in fact, there are forces that are at play that we cant necessarily stop or shift direction of, we have to manage, and im speaking specifically of Something Like the arab spring, for instance. We couldnt have stopped the arab spring. We couldnt keep a lid on that. Nobody could. That happened, and it happened because of a combination of new communications, aspirations, madermity, the intentions created because of the invasions of iraq which left shia and sunni with a new definition and contest, it happened because of aspirations of young people, above all, because of bad governance, failing states, so there are many forces that are unleashed right now. So the task for any administration is to tame the worst manifestations of these forces, to try to put together a strategy for uh how the United States can, in fact, advance its values and protect its interests in the mix of that transformation. I believe weve done a pretty darn good job of managing more of these crises that have come simultaneously than at anytime in creasent memory, and, i mean, if you look i mean, i have said to many people, and i will stand by this, and its completely legitimate that the United States of america in the last four years has been more engaged, more proactively in more places with more crises of different kinds and with positive impact than at anytime in american history, and you can look in africa where were on the cusp of a generation being born of kids free from aids, where restopped ebola without the manager of people dying like they predicted, or the South China Sea where we asserted rights of navigation or ukraine where we put sanctions in place, held europe together, or iran where we got an agreement with a country we hadnt talked to in 35 years to stop its Nuclear Weaponry program, assuming thats, in fact, where they were going, and joining the International Community under the i. E. A. To live up to standards. We had a trifecta with respect to the environment, unprecedented. If we had just done the paris agreement, that would be a huge deal, and we sent a signal to the global marketplace about clean and alternative renewable energy, but we didnt just do that. We got the Airline Industry together, altogether the size of the 12th largest emitter in the world, and we have them reducing their emissions under a new agreement. About 200 nations came together in rwanda and, there, we managed to phase out refrigerants which are a thousand times more potent than Carbon Dioxide and which could in and of itself save the planet a half degree cen centige of warming. In afghanistan, we held a government together that threatened to implode completely with the afghan effort completely shredded as a result because of a bad election, so we put a unity government together. So i can go from place to place, charlie, where i think the United States has offered leadership and it contradicts completely this notion of retreat or retrenchment that the United States is somehow pulling back that is a false narrative that is being advanced by people of different interests. Rose let me come to that point, too. Do you believe that because of the events of the last several years that there is a new world order emerging . Clearly, there are strains, because of this transformation ive talked about. Now, for many, many years, the United States and americans have been able to, at times, win even when we made bad decisions because we were really the only power standing for a long period of time. After world war ii, as the order emerged and we had Bretton Woods and created the u. N. And all these things emerged which is the order as we have referred to it and n. A. T. O. And so forth, the United States has been critical to the development of all of these structures, but increasingly other countries are more powerful, inherently. Rose and want to participate . And they want to participate, and they dont want to simply sit there and take orders from us or simply be passive about the choices that we are making in the context of those institutions. So, china, 1. 3 billion people, second largest economy in the world, which will be automatically the largest economy in the world at some point in time wants to play differently. They want to be more determinative of their future and protect their interests. Likewise, other countries russia, if you have a leader of a country like russia whose leader says the most tragic moment of the 20th century was the fall of the soviet union, you can have a sense of where that person is coming from as he moves in response to things that the United States rose he wants to restore the russia that was . He wants to restore a level of respect and acceptance and perhaps even more than that with respect to rose do we give him that . We want to respect you and we want to give you a level of acceptance after all, you have the Worlds Largest collection of nuclear weapons. I think its important and clear from the diplomacy that i pursued, i think its very important the talk to russia, and i think people need to take note of a certain reality russia, when brought into the process and respected in the conversation and dealt with actually produced, and we were able to cooperate even as we know that they have a different attitude about certain things, they have a different world view, they have a different outlook, and we are not going to be easily walking hand in hand in some kumbaya fashion down the road that brings us together because of the differences of that world view and other interests. Russia doesnt like n. A. T. O. Russia doesnt like the expansion of n. A. T. O. Russia doesnt like the Ballistic Missile defense. Russia doesnt like what we did in libya where they believe that we reached beyond the u. N. Resolution. Russia doesnt like color revolutions. They dont like what happened with ershiancoe in ukraine. There are a bunch of things that are reactive so well have to work through those kinds of things in a relationship. But when we have to get chemical weapons out of syria, russia was the cooperating party that helped to make that happened and, without them, it probably wouldnt have happened. Rose but as soon as you say that i mean, you have been in what has been an unsuccessful effort to get them to help form a transition government. You have given i dont know how many days and how many hours and how many sessions trying to get them to help form a transition government so you can transition assad out of power. Instead of doing that, what they have done is supported assad on the ground, and he is now stronger than hes been in a very long time. He is stronger than he has been, charlie. Rose because of their support, because you couldnt get them to well, no, thats not completely the way it played out. There are a number of reasons why the cease fire didnt work, and there are a number of reasons why we werent able to move to the geneva thing at this point in time. One of the reasons was our own internal division here in the United States of america where we had some folks who simply didnt want to talk to russia or deal with russia, thought it was wrong to have any kind of engagement with russia and put their distrust of russia ahead of any effort to try to find a way to the table. The fact is this, hard, simple, real fact, there will be no political solution whatsoever to the crisis of syria without dealing with russia. Rose yeah, but at the same time let me just finish one thing. And the fact is what we succeeded in laying out in the course of the International Syria support Group Meetings and the u. N. Resolution is the outline of how that political solution is going to look and how its going to come about. Now, i guarantee you, there will be ultimately some kind of negotiation because there has to be, and it will follow the framework of what we laid down. Im confident of that. So while we didnt get there yet, none of that diplomacy was wasted, none of that time to have a cease fire which we had several times for a period of time is wasted because it saves some lives, i got some humanitarian assistance in, and it has established a framework which ultimately will work. The russians made a decision because of our own challenges here, we werent able to deliver. The separation of nusra. Remember, one of the deals was we were going to separate news remarks but we didnt separate nusra, it couldnt be done, it wasnt able to be done under the circumstances. Rose separate them and bring them into some kind of no, separate them out because they are al quaida and there is no keeling with them. They represent al quaida, but, unfortunately, the opposition we were supporting got enmeshed with them and it was very hard to distinguish who was who. Rose and they ended up with american supplies. In some places, in some measure, but also because it allowed assad to continually bomb people and fight, pretending he was simply going after al quaida, when, in fact, he was actually going after the opposition and never really went after i. S. I. L or daesh. So this is more complicated than meets the eye. Meanwhile, you had a major amount of proxy pressure being put on people. For instance, turkey had proxy interests. You had saudi arabia, you had the qataris and so forth, and those proxy efforts complicated what people were willing to do and what you could actually hold accountable. Rose two things about this very point. You said there were divisions if america. It is said that there were divisions within the administration, that the secretary of state you wanted to do more on the ground to give you more leverage, and you could not bring the president to that point and, therefore, you had less leverage to deal with the russians and to deliver than you wanted. Well rose speak to that, because it is history. Well, it is history, charlie, but the administration has another few days and im still here and im not going to be going backwards yet, not in that regard. There are no secrets that there were many debates in the administration and different concepts of how to deal with it. Rose you supported the 51 diplomats that you cant negotiate without an equivalence of troops on the ground. You have to have leverage to negotiate. Rose you didnt have it. Very difficult to negotiate when youre not where the other side doesnt feel compelled to be accountable or to do certain things. But thats neither here nor there now. The important thing is that, while syria has been frustrating for everybody, including president obama, the fact is that weve i think managed to marshal Major Initiative in the region that has strengthened our allies in the region partly to the eIran Nuclear Agreement. Rose you mean Sunni Arab States . Israel, u. A. E. , the saudis. Rose sunni arabs . Yes, very much. So we had a major summit at camp david where they all came in. We strengthened the military support structure, the training, the flow of weaponry they felt they needed. We have been forced we have enforced measures against iran that fell outside of the Iran Nuclear Agreement but which regarded u. N. Resolutions on arms trafficking, state sponsorship of terrorism and so forth. So i think weve managed to make it clear that the United States has been solidly engaged. Look, we put together a 68coalition country effort to defeat daesh. How can people suggest that we were retreating, when i. S. I. L is moving across iraq, threatening baghdad, black flags flying, toyotas all around, people being beheaded, and the president of the United States immediately moved to put our aircraft in the sky and begin to take them on, begin to retrain the army, rebuild the army, and, now, we have liberated 65 of iraq that was taken over by daesh, 35 to 40 of syria, and we are beginning to surround raqqa, we are in the liberation of mosul and i can tell you daesh, i. S. I. L, will be defeated sometime in the course of the next year. Rose in the next year i. S. I. L will be defeated because the two Power Centers, they will be driven out . Just driving them out of the Power Centers is not going to fully deal with the problem. Now, it could go into the next year. Im not going to get precise about the year, but its within a measurable period of time that i am confident we are going to be able to deliberate rose but in just the way i. S. I. L which came out of al quaida, the al quaida in iraq, wont there be some other terrorist organization that will be worse than they are that will follow i. S. I. L . I mean, where are we in the long struggle against terrorism . Were at the beginning of that struggle which is going to go on for some period of time. I said today at the United States nave Naval Academy that i think its a generational challenge and a big challenge. There is bocca haram, alsha bad, you can run the list of these people from South Central asia. So where i think we need to do, where i think the world has got to put more energy and effort is into a call it, and not the best name in the world but its legit because people can immediately imagine what it is, we need a new martial plan, a new greater engagement not just by the United States but by all the developed and neardeveloped world need to come together more effectively to deal with this astounding youth bulge in many rts of the world where yout have young people who, in many places, theyre not going to go to school and they dont have opportunity, and if all that we do, all of us collectively, is leave them to the devices of radical religious extremists who grab those young minds, everybody is going to have a problem going forward. So, in terms of foreign policy, it is a mistake for somebody to say were not going to deal with over there. There is no over there anymore. Everywhere is in the same place. Rose you cant deny that, i dont think, because youve heard these retorts, that after the socalled red line was crossed and there was not an american reaction, although you will say the reaction was to get the chemical weapons out, others expected more and were prepared for more and i think so were you. Secondly well, we can talk about that specifically. Let me make the other point. After what happened to mubarak, many people believe our allies had real questions about where the United States was and could they count on them, and the United States had to go to those nations and reassure them. Absolutely fair to say that some people drew a message from the departure of mubarak rose the red line. Well, ill come to the red line, but on the mubarak thing, that is, i think, erroneous because, in fact, mubarak already, by virtue of the decision of the egyptian people coming out in the streets in the tens of millions, it was clear mubarak wasnt going to supply that, egypt wasnt going to. So president obama made clear publicly what was already clear on the ground. Rose that he had to go. That he was gone, fundamentally, and that got hung somehow on the president and became this moment of doubt. Now to the red line with respect to syria. The president of the United States, barack obama, never ever retreated from his position that he was going to strike. He announced that he would strike, he announced we were going to take action, and he went to congress to ask congress for the permission to do that. He did that after david cameron, Prime Minister of britain, had gone to parliament and been turned down, and i was on a telephone call with about 100 congressmen, i think some senators, but definitely congressmen, i remember, many of whom were saying youve got to come to us, we need to be part of this. So the president decided to go to congress. Now, in the intervening time when congress was deliberating and, by the way, congress became far more difficult to persuade than anybody thought they would be but while that happened i was asked at the press conference in london is there any way that assad could avoid being bombed . And i said declaratively, yes, he could get all the chemical weapons out of syria. Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov called me within a couple of hours and said i heard what you said in london, we need to work on that. The fact is president obama and president putin had actually talked about it. We then went to work on it and, within a matter of days, we came to an agreement to get all the chemical weapons out of syria. So we, in effect, charlie, in reality, we achieved far more by having said were going to bomb, getting all the chemical weapons out, but people interpreted the president going to congress as an avoidance of the bombing, and i will absolutely confirm with you right here, yes, it did hurt us, it took hold. Somehow there was this perception that the president had backed off. Rose the perception is, if you cross the red line and you say youre going to attack if you cross the red line and you dont, even though you got the chemical weapons but what was the reason for the red line . Rose to get the weapons . No, to tell him dont use these. What was the best way for him to not to use them . Take them away. So we actually accomplished the goal exponentially beyond what we would have by bombing, but i concede the fact of how it played out, created this mythology and this perception that somehow the president wasnt willing to do that. Rose well. And i just dont think it was real. But i know it cost us because i heard it and i felt it and i had to argue it with many, many people. Rose and you had to convince them that it was not the reality, that you were not there to back them up and support them. Well, thats one of the reasons why we built up what we built up with camp david, with the assurance program, with the training, the increased efforts on the ground, a lot was done in terms of reassurance. Rose as you remember, i was there talking with assad a week before that and he said at that time that he would give up the chemical weapons if there was no strike because he thought it would be good to avoid war. And i remembered you in london looking at that and how timely it was. There is also this, in terms of history, the famous walk around the white house lawn with a man i interviewed yesterday, the chief of staff of the white house, it is said the president came back from that walk and announced that he would not attack and that he did not i never heard an announcement he wouldnt attack. He announced he was going to go to congress to get the permission to attack. Rose there was nothing discussed and no decision made as a result of that walk. This is history, im asking you, because you were there, without consulting with the secretary of state, without consulting with the National Security advisor he took a walks, charlie. Rose and that was a decisive moment in his own confirmation of his own thinking. Did the chief of staff tell you the president made a decision not to strike or made a decision not go to congress . Because i got a call 9 30 that night from the president of the United States saying i think we have to go to congress and get permission. He never said to me ive decided not to strike, and he went to congress to get permission to strike. In fact, the Foreign Relations committee voted 13 to 7, i think, to permit the strike. So we were still on track for strike. Rose so the decision was not to go to congress at that point . The decision was to get permission from congress . That is correct. Thats what i understood anyway and i dont know anything different to this day. Rose i assume youre right, but much has been made of the walk. Much has been made of the walk because it was a walk about whether he was going to strike on saturday, literally or whether we had to go to congress. One of the reasons people feld compelled that the Congress Thing made sense was david cameron, our close ally, the British Parliament refused him permission to strike. So if this democracy and ally had been refused permission to join in this, was the president on weaker ground, therefore, to go ahead and strike notwithstanding or was it wiser to go to congress in our democracy and get the affirmation of the American People. Rose there were those who argued you did not have to go to congress. Sure. We werent arguing whether we had to go. We knew the president had the authority, constitutionally, to do the strike. That wasnt the issue. The issue was should he go. Was he wiser to get the permission and buyin of the American People for use of force, and many members of congress argued he ought to do that. I think that was the base of the decision he made. In the deliberations of the National Security council, i will tell you, i think its important to have this clear in the conversation, the vast majority of people there, and it may have been all but one person or two people, felt that congress would absolutely give permission and do it quickly and it was with that in mind that the president made the decision to go. Turned out to be Something Congress was not ready to do quickly and i think that added to the notion this was the escape hatch, but it was not put forward in that fashion to the best of my recreation. Rose two questions, one, where is syria today and what would it have taken testify a better result . Syria is a colossal catastrophe and an horrendous humanitarian situation today. Hate what i see. Its painful to watch. Children being bombed, whole historic communities being destroyed, the passions of revenge and hatred being stoked, and harder and harder to put back together as a nation. I personally believe that if the russians had felt some pressure or if assad had felt some pressure that we would have had the greater capacity rose what kind of pressure . Well, any kind of pressure. I mean, you can imagine, but you ran the gamut. I think what happened was the russians wouldnt put pressure on him. The russians never held him completely accountable. Putin should have said to him, you dont go to table and we dont do x, y and z, were out of here. But there was a permission to assads actions which raised everybodys hackles to russias own approach to this. Rose has assad won. No, not at all. Rose has he won temporarily . No, h hes in a stronger position. Hes in a dominant position today, but there is no victory without a political solution. There is no military solution to syria. There will continue to be suicide bombings and, you know, car bombs and insurrection and lowgrade insurgency for a long period of time if you dont resolve the fundamental underlying questions of the future of syria. Rose is it the most disappointing aspect of your secretary of stateship with syria because it is so visible and acts against humanity and the destruction. I dont view it as our failure. I think its a collective failure. I view it as a failure of everybody who has touched it and been involved in it, that the International Community could not come together and unite around a standard of decency and behavior as is expressed within the u. N. And the u. N. And International Community with respect to war and laws of war. I object to the fact that we were not able as an International Community to prevent the carnage of syria, and the things that might have been done or that werent done or werent considered are a fair subject of debate once were finished and out. Rose i mentioned iran, and then i want to talk about the israeli all the hours you spent on israel and trying to get a Peace Agreement between the palestinians and the speech you made against settlement and on behalf of a twostate solution. But first the iran deal. Many people thought that was such a towering diplomatic achievement. Others didnt. That it almost deserved or did deserve a nobel prize for you and the foreign minister of iran. How difficult was it . Tell us how you did it. What was the essence of all those hours and all that talk and all those people who had their own interest . Well, leaving myself out of it, just as an observer rose theres no person more central to it than you. No, but, i mean, im just trying to make a comment about it because i dont want to make it sound like im building it up, et cetera, but this was hard. This was tough. I have been involved in these discussions and these efforts for 34 years, 32 years, something, 28 years in the senate plus, and to sit down with a nation with whom we have had no formal highlevel discussions for 35 years, to break the barrier of mistrust, to be able to get to a table to start working down a road where a country was talking about intrusive inspections, a country particularly that was as full of pride and nationalism and, you know, privacy as a country like iran was really hard and complicated, and they had interests, we had interests, and you have top always find and you have to always find a way to thread the needle in a way that could satisfy interests but still get the job done, and we needed to know that, if we got an agreement, we were not putting israel at risk, putting countries in the region at risk. We needed to know this was not just an agreement for 15 years, but an agreement for life, which is why the Additional Protocol allows a demand inspection at any time in the life of this agreement. So if we see a facility at some point 20 years from now that is being developed, and we have cause to believe that enrichment is taking place or that theres a breakout effort underway, we have a right to inspect. And if we cant, then we have legitimacy in challenging that particular activity. So were never without recourse in the course of this particular agreement. And it was critical to be able to achieve that, frankly, hard for iran to be able to come to the table to make an agreement to say were doing this for the long haul and not going to have weaponry and are prepared to let the outside world look in. Rose why do you think you were able to do that . Because it was clear the Supreme Leader in iran made a fundamental decision that their nation needed to grow. They needed to do better by their people and, because of the sanctions regime, which was a huge success, they were simply not capable of doing that. It was impossible. Now, if they think they have averted an ultimate confrontation of what their program is, theyre mistaken, because what is in place will always permit us to know whether or not and to challenge whether or not theyre trying to move towards weaponry. We will always have the type we need time we need, charlie torques be able to protect our friends in the region and our own interests. But they needed to do that, and we needed to make sure that they didnt have a pathway to a nuclear weapon, and you combine those two interests and put them together, and that was really the bed Bedrock Foundation of what would bring the two countries not two countries you know, the seven countries, p5 plus 1 to the table. Rose and this was an area where russia was helpful. Russia was one of the key players in helping to get to this agreement, and russia also was a key player in getting the chemical weapons out of syria, russia was a key player in helping us to move on your environmental agreements we discussed. Russia was key to getting the marine protected area a few weeks ago. So we had some cooperation with russia even though we disagreed deeply and bitterly over ukraine, crimea and syria, but weve still managed to move some of these other issues. But coming back to iran, you know, i think, i mean, there were just hours and hours offer are detailed and complicated issues, and at one point we became very much affected by the desire of congress to pass more sanctions because they didnt understand where we were in the process. So we have to come out rose and if a new congress would impose new sanctions, what would happen to the agreement . Well, they could break the agreement apart. Rose iranians could walk away from it. It could happen. Rose so far, they have kept the bargain. Iran has definitively kept the bargain. There have been a couple of Little Things here or there that weve had to, you know, tweak in order to make sure were staying where we are, but we have, in fact, i think, set it up now that its on a track to be able to move fairly automatically going forward. Rose lots of people will applaud you for that part of the deal which was the Iranian Nuclear deal to keep them from building and having the nuclear capability. A lot of other people did not want to see it necessarily as a part of agreement, but they want to see america more aggressive about iranian behavior. Yeah. Well, we are aggressive about it. For instance rose what theyre doing in syria, what theyre doing in lebanon, what theyre doing with hamas. We inteptd weapons flowing down towards yemen. We turned the convoy back. Weve intercepted weapons. Weve put sanctions on them for them firing the missiles. Weve continued to have accountability in those other areas. But one thing the new Administration Needs to understand, and its something thats not a small thing, just ordering somebody to do something, just telling them, youve got to do this or else, with some countries is not a good way to get things done. Rose is iran one of those countries . I think iran is a very proud nation with a long history, 5,000 years, and they i think one of the key words that always entered into our negotiation was mutual respect. Now, obviously, for some people, we know that its hard to give that the same meaning when youre looking at what happens to people or when youre looking at their engagement in a certain country or involvement, i get it, but at least in the face to face and process of working through differences, you need to be able to talk to each other. And i think how the new administration chooses to do that is going to be very important. Rose and where do you put hacking, according to u. S. Intelligence agencies approved of and perhaps directed by Vladimir Putin . Well, its very serious business. Rose at the same time that cooperating on iran and cooperating on climate yeah, but, you know rose right interrupt the democratic process in america. Putin alleges that we tried to interrupt his process. Roseprocess. Its one of the reasons he chose not to like Hillary Clinton and her candidacy, and he believes that the Obama Administration interfered in the legitimacy of his own race. Rose and believed it had something to do with what happened in kiev. Yes, very deeply believed we were involved in the midon and helping so im not giving it legitimacy. Im not saying thats not a reason to believe what we believe, im just saying if you dont understand where the other country is coming from, you have a problem. Now, that doesnt excuse anything he did, particularly after the president of the United States made it clear to him this was unacceptable. Rose this was at the g20 meeting. Among others. I raised it with lavrov, also. Rose they stopped it because you raised it with lavrov, the foreign minister, and the president raised it with what happened was the horses were already out of the barn. They already had invaded wikileaks and done certain things, but there was not evidence that other things grew significantly after that, but damage done. Rose there was a meeting between turkey and back to syria for a moment because were talking about russia turkey, iran and russia. Sure. Rose shouldnt you have been there . Well, theyd been at the table with us. Rose i know, but this was not with us. You were not there. And the reason we were not there is because they perceived that, for certain reasons, we were unable to deliver on what we said we were going to deliver on. Rose that was her perception. Were they right . We didnt deliver. Rose tell me, when you became secretar secretary of stt did you think you could do and why, in doing something that had been unattainable so far, to bring the palestinians and the iranians to an agreement supported by both and supported by you mean the palestinians and the israelis. Rose and the israelis, yeah. Well, charlie, you know, this is an issue ive lived with, again, for 30plus years. I traveled to israel in 1986 for the first time as a young senator with 15 or so of my friends in massachusetts, and we traveled all around the country and i got to know it, and that was my introduction. You know, i love israel. I think its a beautiful country with a spectacular founding idea. When hertzel company came together years and years and years ago and zionism was born, it was born out of this idea of creating this homeland, and after world war ii, 1948, it was created, and we recognized it within eight minutes. But the arab world did not. And, so, for years, there has been this question of how do you make peace here . And theres been an evolution in that process through various presidencies, republican and democrat alike, all of whom have opposed settlements. Republican and democrats alike have continually said settlements are an obstacle to peace. Rose ronald reagan, george bush, george bush 43. Everybody. The policy of the United States is settlements unilaterally decided upon, unilaterally announced, yiewrnltly built are an obstacle to the twostate solution. 1993, the oslo accords were signed which embraced the notion of two states for two peoples living side by side in peace and security. Thats what we support, and this administration has been more supportive of israel historically than any administration. We gave them the iron dome. We saved thousands of lives of israelis because of iron dome. A 38 billion, tenyear m. O. U. Rose their Prime Minister and their u. S. Ambassador have said that, more military support and more things in terms of that nature. Yet, at the same time, their Prime Minister comes over here and speaks to congress against the nuclear deal, the Prime Minister he was opposed to the nuclear deal. Thats okay. Let me come back to where we are because this is important. Rose okay. So the United States has continually, and we for four years, i have defended israel in various forum where people have brought delegitimizing and unfair resolutions, whether its been in unesco or the Human Rights Council or the u. N. , weve said no. Rose vetoed at every camp. We stopped it every single team, either vetoed it or stopped it before it got off the ground. The timing, people said why were you waiting . We had a negotiation going. After the negotiation, there was a president ial race. If we had announced something in the middle of a president ial race, both candidates, i guarantee, would have been forced into opposition and it would have been dead on arrival. So the timing was we couldnt walk away, charlie, and leave people with a sense that this didnt matter, that this was impugimpunity rose you couldnt walk away with principled American Foreign policy having to do with israel and its neighbors. Yes, but more than that, that what has been happening because of the continued process is the slow destruction, deterioration, blockage of the possibility of a twostate solution. Now, why is that so important to us . Because, frankly, its important to israel. Because and its important to the palestinians. Because you cannot possibly have a democracy and a jewish state and be a single state, a unitary state. So if israel doesnt create two states, its going to be that unitary state and, guess what . There are more nonjews today, right now rose but why doesnt net in the recognize that that if they create a unitary state, they will face these problems . He says he does recognize that. Rose he says hes still in favor of a twostate solution and settlements at the same time . Correct. He says he has to do x number of settlements because his coalition is a coalition which is built up of many people, the majority of his ministers dont believe in a twostate solution. So, effect, you have a Settler Movement that is driving those politics, and thats what creates this tension. You have many more people in israel who, by all polls, believe in two states. Why did we do this . Why did we push this . Because we support israel, because we care about an israel that can be a jewish state and a democracy, and unless there are two states that rose but youve had a fire storm of criticism among the jewish people in america. Some people. Rose the majority. I dont believe so, not if you look at the polls. Rose they ask a number of questions ive actually seen polls that show the majority of American Jews actually support the idea of a twostate solution. Rose im talking about not vetoing the resolution. You can support i saw polls which showed that about 36 supported it, what we did, 29 were against and the rest undecided. So the polls showed this division. Its not the division thats important. Its the policy thats important. Israel, to be a democracy and a jewish state at the same time, has got to resolve this issue and make a choice, and the choice is youve got to create that state or you give up on the idea of rose but they have been trending this way for a while thats continued one administration after another. Its reaching a tipping point. Yes, and after many, many discussions look, ive had over Something Like 375 to 400 hours of conversations with the Prime Minister of israel, and we consider ourselves friends. Ive known him for a long time. We get along. Weve talked many, many hours. Weve spent some great times together, but ive said to him, mr. Prime minister, you are taking your country to a place where its going to be increasingly hard for us to fend off resolutions and still be true to our own policy. Now, thats a choice we face, and we are a sovereign nation. We are israels best friend, and we stood up and said we have to be true to the twostate process, we have to be true to the policy that every administration has supported, and, so, we voted the way we did. We didnt support it, we abstained, but we allowed it to go through. Rose you did veto it. We didnt veto it but we also didnt sit there and say, oh, we agree. Why didnt we agree . Because there were things in the resolution rose but you think it could lead to in a sense the destruction of the state of israel as we know it . Some people even use the word apartheid. Some people have used that word and other words. The point im trying to make, and im not using that word, but what i am using is you will have two separate laws. Currently palestinians live in the west bank under military law. Israeli settlers who live in the west bank live under israeli civil law, and what has been happening is, increasingly, theres been a reverse of the oslo process. Palestinian homes in the west bank built illegally, i grant you that, but built because they cant get permits, only one permit was granted for construction of a palestinian entity in 2014 and 2015, so those have been demolished. Rose how much aid did we give israel last year . 3. 1 billion, approximately. Rose largest donor of american aid in the world. Israel receives more than 50 of all the Foreign Military sales support of the United States and, yes, we give them a lot of aid. Im not bashful about that. I think we should. Im glad we give israel a lot of aid. Israel is our friend and ally and has been under siege and israel does need to be able to have the security to protect itself. Part of the guiding principle of how we approached this process was to absolutely make sure israel could defend itself by itself. Rose you know what the israelis will say. They will say to you and have said it a thousand times, the u. N. Is not the way to go. The way the go is negotiations. Yes, it is. Rose between israel and the palestinians. Youre absolutely correct, and we affirm that in the resolution, and we have affirmed that every step of the way. The final status issues cannot be imposed by the united nations. They must be resolved by the parties. We completely support and enforce that principle. And in the resolution that was passed in the united nations, my friend, there was no final status issue decision that was made. Jerusalem, i put forward principles around which they should negotiate, suggesting that you wont have a solution to the problem unless you have a capital for each state somewhere in jerusalem, they have to resolve that. Where is it going to be . How is that going to work . You wont have a solution without it. We also said you have to solve the refugee issue that is fair and just along the lines of the arab peace initiative. Rose you have to solve borders. Correct, borders, and you have to make sure that israel has the ability to defend itself, and even if things were to change in 20 years or whatever, they could then still defend themselves because they have a right to be able to ultimately respond to that crisis legally, even if it meant they have to, you know, push back into the region temporarily in order to deal with it. So there are all kinds of ways that we have acknowledged that the final status issues must be resolved with it by the two parties. Nothing in the resolution that passed in the united nations, settlements are not a final status issue. Settlements depend on borders. Rose you are inexhaustible, inexhaustible. You are a believer that you will, until the last breath, you keep trying and keep trying and keep trying. Well, i believe you can make peace. I believe in rationality. Rose but your time is better spent on other issues. You need to be in syria, china well, i was. Rose and this is a fools errand to believe you can change what everybody else has tried. This is why i traveled so many miles. I didnt give up working on any of the issues. I traveled how many times seven times to china. I traveled to many of the places. I worked on the Global Change agreement, all these other agreements, i negotiated in afghanistan. I mean, thats the nature of this job, its an intense job and you work hard. Rose but you travel a lot more in terms of trying to pursue a middle east peace than secretary clinton did. Well, i think maybe some of it has to do with the lessons i learned as a young man, that war is a failure of diplomacy and if countries lie or avoid realities or if countries dont try, particularly the United States of america, a lot of bad things can happen, and when i came back from vietnam, i resolved that if i ever had a chance or was in a position of responsibility, i would do everything in my power to guarantee that i didnt fall into that pit and make the same mistakes or lose the opportunity. We had a saying, my crew and the guys i was with over there, we still stay in touch with each other, and those have us lucky enough to make it back have a saying that every day is extra. So you go at it that way. Rose and where are you going to be six months from now . Well, i dont know about six months from now. I know im going to continue to try to contribute. Im going to find ways to stay in this debate. The climate change, oceans, challenge is enormous and we have an awful lot of work to do. I want to try to be involved in some track to diplomacy and some other efforts, and i want to do some private sector stuff. Im very, very excited about what is happening in private sector, the changes that can take place. I think the private Sector Investment and the choices we make is a huge opportunity to push public policy, frankly, around there are all kinds of investments we could make in countries that could meet some of the challenges i talked about earlier, about young people and opportunity. So i want to be engaged in that in some ways and im going to sort it out. Rose thank you for doing this. My pleasure. Rose thank you very much. Thank you. Rose secretary of state john kerry for the hour. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. For more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Kacyra it kind of was like the bang that set off the night. Rogers that is the funkiest restaurant. Man the honey on the prawns will make your insides smile. Klugman more tortillas, please. Man what is comfort food if it isnt gluten and grease . Man i love creme brulee. Woman the octopus shouldve been, like, quadropus, because it was really small. Sbrocco and you know that when you split something, all the calories evaporate and then theres none. Man thats right, yeah