Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20130306

Her gender but she was not deterred. For 25 years she was the swing vote on the can court on issues ranging from affirmative action to abortion to campaign finance. She left her post as associate justice in 2006. Shes written a new book about the history of the Supreme Court. It is called out of order. Im pleased to have Justice Sandra day oconnor back at this table. Welcome. Thank you, its good to be here. Rose business first. All right. Rose business first. You gave me this. I did. Rose when i saw you a couple days ago. I did. Rose and youre not getting it back. No, i didnt expect to. Rose but i have this one which has my name on it. So im giving it is that right. Rose thats exactly right. But this is weathered and has a name. Rose thats why i wants to you have it. And gold on it. Rose thats another reason i want you to have it. All right. Im arneed indeed. Thank you. Rose Everybody Needs a constitution. Yes, they do i. Because its the fundamental of our country. Its the basis of our government. Rose yes. I just think Everybody Needs to know about it, what it does. And take it around so that we know you take it seriously. And i just think its important to have one with you. Rose keep you in touch about what makes this country. Absolutely. Rose youve written a new book out of order. Stories from the history of the Supreme Court. The first book was about, i remember wonderfully about you growing up in cow boy land. Yes, about lazy z ranch. Rose and the second one is about the speeches. And this one. This is some stories about the history of the course. Rose do you have a favorite justice. Well, id have to work on that. Rose ill suggest Justice Marshall to make it easy. He got it started and he gave it a good start. Dont you think . I do. Rose i do. It was so hard in those days. They had to roam around the country and justices had to sit with other court. Rose before the marble edifices they have now. Right they no place. I just think it had to be brutal in the early days. Rose had no respect. No respect. Rose that you have now. No respect. Rose not since the final arbiter of the rule of law. Thats right. Rose come a long way. It has. Rose and John Marshall did what. He established the rule of. Well we call it the we didnt talk about the rule of law in his day. That has come later, i think, with some success of the courts and i think it is a common term these days. Rose how do you think the courts change beyond what we have just pointed out over the years . Well, for one thing, it doesnt have to travel. They come to washington. And for another of the justices tend to serve rather a long time these days. And they didnt always in the early days. Rose why did you retire . Well, because john connor, my beloved husband had alzheimers disease. And that gets worse as time passes. And he was reaching the point where he was going to have to go in a care facility. And i really thought he should be in arizona where our children were. And i wasnt there, and it seemed to me at that point i better get down from the court and be available for john. Rose youre comfortable with your role in history . Oh, im honored to have been the first woman on the court. How could i ever imagine doing anything like that. I certainly didnt when i was admitted to law school. It was not anything to which i as spired. It was inconceivable. Rose when Ronald Reagan called you up to say he wanted you. He was on the phone and i was in my office in the chambers on the court of appeals in arizona. And he said sandra, i would like to announce your nomination tomorrow for the Supreme Court, is that all right with you. And i just you know, i knew that they had been looking. But what do you say to Something Like that . Rose yes. Well, i said mr. President , i would be honored. And it was an amazing turn of events. Rose what did you love about being on the court . Well, having challenging, interesting questions to answer. That was my job. And imagine, being lucky enough to have that be your job. And thats what a lawyer dreams of is to be able to address challenging legal issues and answer them. What could be better than that. Rose is there a perfect experience for sitting on the court . I mean, do you need to come from the court of appeals or at the District Court levels or state court. It wouldnt hurt it wouldnt hurt. I had served just on state courts but you need a little experience in deciding appellate issues, i think. And you certainly need to have been straight at a little skill in your academic life for deciding issues of the court. Rose so once youre sitting as a justice and you know youre going to have two advocates coming before you to argue. And this has got to be for them a terrifying moment. It has to be challenging. Rose exactly. How do you prepare . Do you have a list of questions that are unanswered for you . Yes. You do have occasionally some. I would jot some down at time so i wouldnt forget it. When i was preparing for the case i would Read Everything and id have some thoughts and then i would put it aside until the day of oral argument so i didnt want to forget. I jot down some of them. If there was a question i thought it was very important to ask. Rose the advocates, you call daniel webster, one of the great advocates before the Supreme Court. Yes. Rose a talented. Yes, he sure was. Rose advocate. And in the early days you know, they didnt have time limits on arguments. The arguments went on and went and went sometimes more than a day. Can you imagine. Rose of all the justices you have seen while sitting on the court, who exhibited the most piercing analytical interrogation. Of the one that i saw . Rose yes. Who. Im not sure. I think bill rehnquist wasnt bad. He was a sharp guy. He was in law school too. Rose you both went to stanford. Same class. Same class. Rose was he number one. I dont know. Stanford actually didnt rank but he had to be marvelous. Rose hes a pretty good chief justice too. I thought so. Rose he knew how to manage a court and bring them together make sure. I thought he did well. Rose when you think about the cases, what was the hardest case for you. I cant remember and go back now and rank them but some of them are very hard to figure out. You arent sure. You spend a lot of time on it and youre still not sure. But at the time of the argument how you resolve it. Rose so you wouldnt decide until you heard the argument. Sometimes i would have decided based on what i read. I know what im going to do in this case. Other cases were just so tough that even after reading everything, you werent absolutely sure. And then youd say well ill wait and hear an argument. Then you hear the argument and youd have to go back and think about it some more. A few of them were that challenging. Rose you might change your mind and make you think. Yes, absolutely. Rose you believe that the values you learned on the ranch were the same values of that served you on the court. Well, yes. I learned about hard work, really hard work. And being self reliant because there were many things you had to do on your own. There wasnt somebody there to help you. We had to do it and do it well to make that happen. Rose do you, once you get to the court, and youre sitting on the court and you get to play the role of a swing justice. Now, i dont watch rose you do. I do not. I mean it sounds like you dont care what it is, youre just swinging away. Rose you dont like that at all. Sounds like the person youre there for sometimes rules with the conservative and sometimes rules with the liberals and whatever decision she makes will be the determining factor in te decision of the court on that particular case. It gives you immense power and you knew you had it. Setimes. Rose and you cared to exercise it. Sometimes thats correct. The court was divided in such a way that a single vote could turn it from an affirm to a reverse. And i found myself in that situation. Rose why, just because you saw both sides of many cases. I dont know. I mean any other justice could say the same as i. They could say i could change my vote. Rose but they pretty much voted in a certain way and you would go from left to right. No, i dont think thats quite fair. Rose why isnt it fair. Because i didnt just run around going from one to the other. God that just isnt. Sometimes rose i cant believe it made you powerful. Well, i wasnt looking for power. Rose it was history. I had enough power with my single vote. I didnt have to swing around to gain power. Rose i believe you liked it. You liked the fact that you i liked being on the court. Rose of course you did. But you liked the fact you could decide. I had to decide rose it wasnt more than one vote. It became a vote that would decide. Some of the cases, a few of the cases. Rose and you liked that. I didnt object. It wasnt something to which i aspired. I didnt want to be in that situation. It isnt what i wanted to do. I thought everybody should agree with me. It ought to be nine zip my way. Rose how many nine zip cases did you see, many. Yes. Rose more than we think. Oh yes. Rose of all on yes, yes. Thats what i liked, yes, the role. Rose how did you like bush versus gore. Well, that was tough. It was not nine zip. Rose exactly right. It was five. Five four. Rose five four. It was a hard case. Rose what did you think of that case. Hard case sometimes makes bad law. Thats what is said sometimes and thats possible. But that was a very challenging case and an election was riding on the outcome. Rose some people believe that the court heard that election and realized that and therefore politics got involved. Well, people tend to say a lot of things that arent necessarily true. And i dont think that was the point. We had some tough issues in that case to decide and we did. And we thought, and the florida vote counters did not do the kind of job that one would hope they would do. Rose do you regret your vote. No. Rose you dont. No. I think we did the right thing based on what happened down there. Rose deciding who will be president. The court deciding who will be president. That was the result of a decision on something else. Rose right. How the election was conducted. But the end result was an outcome of the election. That wasnt the intended objective of the vote. Rose when you look at the court today. Yes. Rose how, do you believe it has the same quality of the same court you served on did. When you look at the quality there. As far as i can tell. Yes, i havent served with them but i see what they do and i think we have a court with capable justices on it with people sitting there and serving and trying to do their best. Rose what have you hoped to achieve since you left the court for the love of your husband. I am hoping, i am involved in some very hard work to try to teach young people civics. Did you know weve stopped doing that. Rose no. All right. Well i want to educate you a little bit. Rose i need all the help i can get. Okay. Young people, im talking middle schoolers and high schoolers. Today cant name the three branches of government. A High Percentage cannot. Rose thats like the ninth grade, tenth grade. Right. And its pathetic. They dont know anything. And so i think its vitally important that we teach civics. After the constitution was adopted, we had a system of government, some people began to circulate around to the states and say look, we have this good system of government now, we should develop Public Schools to teach our young people how it works so they can be part of it. Thats why we got Public Schools. It was to educate people on our constitution and our system of government. Today, they have apparently lost the message and arent teaching civics anymore. And i think rose why is that. Well, were into math and science and reading and other things. All of which are important. But i think its vital, no matter what else youre doing that we teach young people how our Government Works and how theyre part of it. Thats critical. Rose what, how will your effort i started a website. Its called icivics. We have ipads and ipods and everything and we have icivics. Its a game teaching young people how the Government Works. I have a marvelous group of teachers who add vices on what needs to be thought. Theyre encompassed by games. We have 19 games and the 19th game is one to help them learn to write more intelligently. Write their papers. I think were going to do have to do more than one game on this. Rose when people come to me and talk about whats the perfect kind of education. Theres no perfect education but clearly you should know history. Clearly you should know civics, clearly you should know languages. Clearly you should understand basic principles of economy and the political system. All of that will make you, you know, a person that can more fully enjoy life and participate in life. Right. Rose but you also, the thing that i find is missing is the ability to communicate. The ability to speak well and to write well. And to write well. Rose to know what you think and be able to express it. Thats right. So one of our programs for icivics now is to teach them to write better. Write well, i hope. And thats important. Ive been very enthused. I have chairman now in all 50 states. And were averaging right now having at least 30,000 students a day get into and play these games. Its not enough. I would like 70,000 a day but were getting there. Rose talk to me about women in America Today and the fact that you still in terms if you look at the number of ceos and look at the number of people in congress lagging behind. Yes, but so much better than it ever has been. I look at it and feel encouraged not discourage. Its really changed. Weve made enough progress that were going to make, were going to close the gap. Rose so when you got out of law school and you had all the, you had great grades, you were a wonderful person. I dont know about that. Rose oh really. I tried to get a job. Rose what did they say to you. I could not get an interview. They wouldnt even talk rose an interview. No. There were at least 40 names on the bulletin boards, law grads call. I called every single number and not one of them would talk to me. Rose did they return your phone call. When i got hold of somebody they would say well we dont hire women. It was unbelievable to me. Rose do you think it was crazy. I was shocked because i had a good record and i felt sure i could do a decent job. And i couldnt believe that i was not going to get a job interview. And i didnt. And i then learned that the county attorney in San Mateo County california had once had a woman on staff. I wrote him, made an appoint to see him. He was very nice. They are glad handers. They are elected so he was. He said oh you would be fine. But right now im not funded to hire another deputy. I spent my money the supervisors gave me. So i said really want to work for you for nothing. If you awe point me. For nothing. I know you dont have any money but theres a secretary and theres a room in her office with another desk if she didnt object. And this was my first job out of law school. No pay. And i put my desk in with the secretary. Rose how long was it before they started paying you. It was a while. It took a number of months. But thats how i got my foot rose explain what was going on there. You showed a lot of initiative. You wanted it to happen. You did not let their failure to recognize your talent. I had to have a job. Rose how did you survive. How did you afford sheltered. Johns parents were very nice and they would give us meals, they would bring food once a week. Rose you also were a politician. Well eventually, yes. I ran for office in arizona and served in the legislature for some time. Rose in the senate or house. Senate. Rose did you ever think i could be governor of arizona. I did. But as a matter of fact, i was thinking of running for governor. But Bruce Babbitt came along. Rose democrat. Yes. And he did not want me running. And thats when he then reached out and put me instead of a trial court judge, pop on the court of appeals because he hoped then i wouldnt run. Rose he was right. He was right. Rose you probably could have beaten him. Possibly. Rose would you rather have been a Supreme Court justice than say a senator. Oh yes. Clearly. I mean that was an amazing experience to be on the Supreme Court. To have those very challenging issues that youre part of deciding. And to be able to help craft opinions, that was a great great privilege. It really was. Rose i read you the last time i saw you, a quote from Justice Ginsberg who said when you left it was just different. Well i think when any of the nine leave its different because we all participate in one way or another. Rose who are you closest to among the judges other than rehnquist. I was close to him because i had known him forever. Rose and he left. Thats so hard to know. I didnt have another woman for a while. I eventually got judge ginsberg and we saw eye and eye. We had very similar experiences in law school. Rose you had different philosophy didnt you. To a degree. We didnt differ that much on what principles to apply to cases. Rose you really did not. No. Rose people would say you have a different record than hers. Well my conclusion might be different than hers having applied some of these principles. Rose she said to be a great friend of justice scalia. I think she is, yes. Thats good. Rose the court makes strange bed fellows. I know but just because your outcome in cases are very different doesnt mean you cant be close friends. You can and should be. The court is very unusual you might agree on one case and disagree on another and thats fine. Rose did you ever think about being chief justice. No. Rose not once. No i didnt. I didnt think that was likely. That just didnt enter into my thinking. Rose you liked the life in washington. Well, it was okay. Rose did john work as a lawyer there. He did. He had a pretty good time but it wasnt the same as what he experienced in arizona. Rose can you talk about when he went into care because of alzheimers. Oh its so sad because you see them. They dont always know you even. Rose even you. No. He knew that i was someone he recognized but the notion that i was his wife i dont think penetrated. Im not sure how much he would relate to the fact that theres such a person as a wife. You just dont know. Rose you must be devastated. Oh it breaks your heart. Rose you see the person you know and lo. I breaks your heart. He was so darling. He had a funny sense of humor. As sick as he was, as difficult as it was to the very end he tried to make the nurses laugh, someone else laugh. Make a funny face or do something. Rose he developed a relationship with them, a friendship with another woman there. Oh, yes, sometimes. I mean he would with anybody. Rose did you ever think you would remarry. Well, i didnt think about that. That hasnt come up. I havent been asked. Rose would you like to be. No. No. Rose so are there unfinished objectives for you . Do you have goals that you still beyond icivics, beyond writing books . Well i have one more book i want to get out. Rose whats that. Well i dont want to tell you because that would be premature but i have one more that i think maybe ought to be told. Rose about the court or about. Well im just not going to say. Theres one more book. Rose is it about the way we select justices . No. It isnt. And theres one more thing that i really want to see finished and thats my icivics program. I wanted to really educate youg american, the middle schoolers about how our Government Works and i want to do it well. I want to make a difference and i think i can. Its happening. Rose and i think you have. Well its started anyway. Rose just with your life youve made a difference. I adore you. Thank you, thank you. Rose do you think i would give up a copy of the constitution for me. Of course i would, all right. Rose out of order, stories from the history of the Supreme Court, sandra day oconnor. She is indeed one of the great women in american history. Back in a moment, stay with us. Rose Tariq Ramadan is a color and scholar of islam in a world thats more varied than ever. He tried to show what race means in a modern age. He helps es lawmsic identity outside the majority countries. His latest book is called islam and the arab awakening. It asks the question what will islamic democracy look like. Return for traditional islamic values seen through critical eyes. I am pleased to have him back on this program. Welcome. Thank you. Rose why do you use the term arab awakening rather than say arab spring. Thats a very important question because i have the very beginning i didnt buy the fact that we were witnessing the spring and even revolutions. From the the very beginning i said im cautiously optimistic about what is happening saying that yes there is something which is irreversible. That the people in egypt, libya to start with and then other countries, are now aware that its possible to get freedom through leaderships and it can change. This is something that should happen now. In political terms and as to the future we still have a lot to see and to do over there to get something which has to do with the democratization process. Rose you believe that in fact what has to happen is that middle east has to produce new models of democracy. Yes. I think when it comes to the principles, you know, all the discussion about is i lam compatible with democracy. Thats this question we have to start w i think that nothing in the democratic principals are against the islamic promises. Rose why do people make that argument. They think religion will dominate the powers of the state rather than Democratic Values . Yes. I think for many reasons. First is the historical reasons is that when you look at what is happening in the middle east to reduce islamic world so to speak. I speak about most leave countries to the arab world. If you look at the arab no will democracies over there. So we think it has to do with religion. I has nothing to do with religions first because the arab world is not islam. The great majority of the muslims are not arabs. Thats why this has to do with democracy. The second thing is the perception that islams alien to all the values and islam has no take on all these principles. Thats why they should say rule of law equals citizenship, universal coverage, accountability. These principles are not against islamic frame of reference. Rose but are they principles where there are islamic majorities in government that they, those islamic majorities want to either create or to put in the process. I think its what we saw whatever was, whatever were the reasons of the uprisings in what the people were asking for about freedom and liberty. They wanted dignity and they wanted freedom. They wanted democratization. Now the modelsnt if you look at what is happening in the United States, the democracy model in the United States has nothing to do with the swiss model. Im a swiss citizen. We have models coming out of our history and collective psychology. This has nothing to do. We have same principles different products. Lets see if its possible. In most countries, in tunisia or in egypt, lets see if its possible to have models of democracy that are not against islamic principles but at the same time very very clear on the dignity of the people. Rose what part of islamic principles might be considered against democracy and democratic principles . What part . I think this discussion about the fact that muslims of islamic references thats not different between politics and religion. That islam and this was the writ rick at the beginning of the is saying islam is religion and power and state. And we had the secularization process. Democracies came to be a reality in the west out of this secularization process. Its as if the muslims, they havent experienced this. And more than that, we had actors within the must lump majority countries saying no for us its the same. And this is where we have to be quite clear. That from an islamic view point the fact that there is negotiated authority coming from the state, and we dont want authority of religion to take over this principle which is not against islam and we need to understand and this is what im saying in the book. The point is all this we have today between second arrests and islamists is not the true question. The true question if we want democratization we have to fi issues. The first one is corruption. Because its confident informant. The second is education. Theres no democracy without people being educated. And education is the starting point of having citizens who are responsible, and the third one is the economy system. What is happening now. Why im talking to you now in the middle east is unsettled societies and economic existence that is completely destroyed. Without economic stability and a vision of social justice which is a third challenge. And also the reality of empowerment for women. Because this is a problem. Very often we speak about what is happening in the media. Rose theres a question. Speak to that, the empowerment of women and what some people believe that certain Muslim States look at the role of women in society. Saudi arabia. Yes, exactly. This is why we have to be critical. When you have a state where for example it is said its impossible for a woman to drop. To have access rose islamic perceptions of islamic principles. Exactly. Interpretation which is a narrow literalist unacceptable interpretation of islam. Nothing in islam can support this position. So this is why. We need to say look instead of having people from the west say do you know what, there is a in the majority of the Muslim Society because we are wearing stuff more than yesterday. Thats not the point. Lib rations for women have nothing to do with the way you dress it has to do with two things. The first access to education. And second, access to the job market. If you can get a job. And with the job having the same salary from the same skills because we still in the United States of america are dealing with these issues. That sometimes a woman get the same job with the same skills but less salary. Rose okay. Youve said that tunisia. Tunisian is true democracy coming out of arab spring awaking, yes. Yes. Rose assess whats happened in egypt since the election. What happened. I think this is where i was by saying even with what happened now in tunisia. What we have is we have something quite interesting in tunisia with the president and some secularists saying the future is to acknowledge the fact that like it or not, the islamists have the say in the future of our country. Let us come together and try to tackle the main issues. Up to now, there were not able to find an agreement, not because of them, because sometimes what we had is other trends, very very narrow secular trends there is something happening in the muslim majority countries now is a new type of yesterday they were not involved in politics. Rose i want to talk about that. Since youre there, explain to me and my audience which they are and how theyre different from other islam i. Sale fee is a term. In the beginning salife means to come first its a positive consent saying we come back saying are saying to the literal understanding and the others to the creativity of the origin. Today we have many facts of sale fee. You were talking before about saudi arabia, they dont call themselves its literalists. They want to implement rose its not the same. No. In fact we are talking about salife. The point is they are literalists. Rose they are the same is the question of definition. Exactly, the term. And the second thing is that we had over the last 15 years is a new type of salife. Remember in egypt they were saying we arent involved in politic. Few months before the election they started changing it saying we are involved. Now we have salife involved in politicians and there are literalists involving the party of light as they call themselves are now being involved and we think its the same. The Muslim Brotherhood in tunisia are the same. Rose tell me what salifes in egypt want because they did okay in the election. They did 23 . So what they want is two things. First the constitution, the only reference should be to she awe law. Rose do you agree with that. This is the reading of the islam which is literalists and i think they are using the democratic system to come to say to all the people we are the only true islamic references and this is the literalist trend and this is what im saying to the muslim conscious today if we dont tackle this issue and not clear about the fact that the literalists reading of the sources are wrong that we need a new type of understanding of the text. Clear as to the principles of our text, we are faced with the text. But often critical and challenging to our times. And one of the challenge is women as we said. Rose some have argued this debate. People who have argued even during the midst of the iraq war and all of the thing that have transpired after that took place and have argued that the debate, the debate and even before the iraq war with something that had nothing to do with the iraq war but happened at 9 11 the debate ought to be within islam between a point of view that youre recommending and that debate has never really taken place. I think its true. We need an internal debate. Rose right. Amongst scholars. When i was talking about for example implementing the penal code, i was saying to the muslims stop. We now have to stop implementing and open an internal debate amongst scholars, amongst plight toes. Tend of the day every Society Needs an internal debate. If you are democrats in the United States we better open a debate about democracy in this society when it comes to the African American and the latinos. Every society. So the muslims are not alien rose but you could argue in america you just saw the power of the latino vote. Fine. No, im not saying rose and that that demographic change is reflective, you know in a sense of where they have so fully participated that they have power. They have power but not always the same rights. So the debate is still open. And in the muslim countries as you said and i think this is very important we need these debate. We need an internal debate. And im saying and this is from where i am. I a few years ago was saying the western muslim we have a tremendous impact on the majority of the muslims. Because i can talk. Because i can talk with you. I have this critical debate and come and say what were experiencing in the west when i talk about islamic applied tactics to economy and environment. This these debates coming from the west to the majority of the muslim countries im heard rose in egypt you can speak your mind and have a debate. I didnt go yet. I will go because you know it was bad from the country for 60 years i was banned from tunisia. And rose are you still banned. So far i dont have rose why not. Thats the point. Because my record was with the army. You know what i said in this book rose i dont understand this. Why dont the egyptians now in which the muslim brother hood is in charge of the government. Why dont they let you in. No no, they think from the very beginning even on the mubarak they were saying you cant come in. My problem is not the state or the president or the new army, as you know up to now the army is very powerful in egypt. I wrote it in the book saying be careful. All what this said is it might be what were experiencing now is the new positioning of the Egyptian Army within the citizen state after mubarak. And i still waiting to see how it is going to be in the book. Rose would you like to see happen in egypt what happened in turkey with respect to the army. Of course. Rose putting them back in the barracks. Exactly. This is what is remembered in the Current Administration they were quite smart with the European Union to push through the European Union the army by saying we are not going to be democracy if you still have this power within the country. Rose is the champion of secularism. He is rose he goes to egypt and talks about it in cairo. Some people look at it as a model of secularism. Is there residence for that in the middle east . I think that you know, hes carrying something. Rose its not an arab when he went to egypt in july one andahalf years ago he said we do not care for secularism, he was talking from his own experience. I think theres something we cannot deny was the islamists when they were asked about the situation they are saying were much closer to arab and the turkish model than the iranian. We dont want the iranian. So he tried and the administration thats current Turkish Administration are trying something which is completely new. And they are, this is a secular state, a civil state with islamic reference. Rose so that is a model you would look to. No. Im critical in saying they are doing good things but still there are lots of things to do. For example when it comes to minority, when it comes kurds or the economic model. Its not enough to say you are economically successful. Whats important for me is the south south relationship. Rose south south. Relationship, economic relationship. When it comes to helping the other countries to just economically being in power. They are trying something which is almost 40 embassies open in african countries, turkish. And i think this is interesting but im still constructively critical towards the turkish. Rose while i have you here in the United States in this conversation, i want to move to whats happening in syria. What you think might happen in jordan and what might happen in saudi arabia and what might happen in bahrain. Syria first. Its very sad situation. I think unfortunately im quite cynical about this. I think that rose cynical. Cynical yes. Because i think from the very beginning we need to take positions of principle musharraf had to leave. Now the position is divided and we dont know exactly who is who within the position. But i think the west in the whole process not following what was done in libya, i dont think that is an intervention. This is not the way. But to be quite clear on position of principle that is helping the country to find a solution. And im cynical because i think today that there is an agreement not to agree between western countries and power in the United States. Rose an agreement with the western powers and . And russia and china not to agree. Rose you think they agree not to agree. Yes. Rose for what purpose. To destabilize the east now, its very weak. For economic reasons, strategic reasons, very weak syria is not at all helping the middle east find a way. Rose what you would have with assad either leaving the country stepping down or whatever would be destabilizing that would offer or perhaps suggest a very detrimental problem. I think its very different. If we go and have a stabilized free syria with people voting where the situation could be also new relationship between shiite and sunni because one of the question is the divide between shiites. And i think this situation now with syria is helping to nurture the divisions and nurturing the division. Rose between sunni and shia. This is not new, the reality of the country between iran and iraq. Rose some of the strange, the shia and syria are not the same as the shia in you are completely right. If you look at who is supporting who now in iraq, you will see that iran, and lebanon is also porting, and the people supporting the opposition are qatar, saudi arabia. So you have this divide and i think that today in the middle east, in strategic terms when it comes to the United States or israel or european countries, this divides paradoxically is helping just to control the region much more. Rose so its a western conspiracy to have. No, no, no. I told you from the very beginning, dont, its more complex than that. I think that the first is not the conspiracy. The power of the wells is to play with the weakness of the nuz muslims and they are to blame. Rose youre saying the weakness to the muslims is to have very very deep divisions within and the west plays off those divisions for its own gain or to maintain, prevent united muslim or islamic. No no, not the united. I think at least to get stability in the region. To get you know the people for example in the meetings. When it comes for example to the relationship with israel, theyre not happy. So the more you have division over there, the more you will have people not being able to support the palestinians for example but not only an even freedom and democratization between the country. So i think when it comes frequent left us be clear and this is what im add indicate advocating in the book. Were dealing with colleges and challenges in the middle east. Who are the actors. The United States . No. European countries. E. Coli know, russia, indonesia. Knees are the new players and the new middle east have new economic actors. The power of china now in the middle east is something which is unprecedented. Rose how is it expressed . Expressioned with direct relationship in economic terms withal a the countries. For example the relationship with russia and iran in the beginning and even mubaraks sob who was to come after his father, he was turning towards china. Qaddafi he was in force he was turning towards china. I think all this discussion about democracy and political terms is something that is missing. If there is something missing if were not talking about the economy challenges. Rose just as a caveat to this argument, there was a time in which the saudis were unhappy with the absence of support from mubarak. And it is said that the saudi leadership the royal family made some opening to china and considered but they withdrew from it. They came back to maintain the relationship with the United States. Thats right. And i think all the countries saudi arabia and qatar and others within the region, they are still very very much dealing with the states. Im not saying the United States has no power there, im saying that the new middle east has to do with economic terms with new actors. And these new actors are changing and shifting towards the east. This will have a tremendous impact. I will say the waiting is not only to be considered in political terms, it has to do with economic and strategic. Rose its not just the middle east. Exactly, of course. Rose many people in the west including the obama station would like to see stability and democratic stability. I think the president has expressed that idea. With institutions, strong civil institutions and they would like to see it because and they would like to see syria stabilized and they would like to see a restriction of iranian power because they are trying to have influence with syria right now and hezbollah and hamas. They would like to see counterveiling forces within the islamic world against iraq. I think once again, you know, there is the discourse. Rose also about the arab spring. This is what they said. Rose do you believe that. Im not sure that it it is as good as this, you know. Rose conspiracy. It has nothing to do with conspiracy, it has to do with politics and studying history. Can you tell me if the United States wanted for example more democracy in the middle east. They would be supporting saudi arabia the way they are. Rose do you know what the United States would say. They would say its a case by case issue. Dram democrat cease a matter of case by case. Rose they make exceptions. Youre right. Rose saudi arabia and bahrain. Bahrain for example the people who are protesting, they were not only shiite against sunni. They only wanted freedom. Rose heres an interesting point. You are saying the people at the heart of the arab spring and who were the people first in tar rear square were people in relationship with the wealth. Thats some of the values they were trying to promote in their own country. Not only the values but the cyber dividend were training in the west and pushing towards more freedom and democracy. And all this business they didnt know what was happening thats not right. So the point here is that to push towards democracy is something that could be done and supported by the west. My only concern is when it comes to politics, you made the points. You made the point is that we are for democracy. Rose you would argue that they would like to see the principles evolve at different times. Heres what you wrote. When nations have so often so long been visibly supporting dictatorship in the name of frequently undisclosed economic interests it would today be denied to make the excitement to consider the global norths support for democratization as unselfish exsuppression of love devoid of strategic calculations. Is this wrong or is this rose i think anything is devoid of strategic calculations. So thats the point. And i think that if we want to be consistent. You know rose in other words you have strategic calculations and then, and also have a respect for Democratic Values. Exactly. At the same time, you know, for example in iraq. Who was supporting for so many years, Saddam Hussein. It was the u. S. Administration. The point im making rose also strategic calculation there that you know the notion was that saddam stood out as kind of a weapon against iran. Thats part of the reason they supported him in the iranian war. No, it was more than that. It was even before and i think they are still now supporting dictators in a way where we have to be critical. So as much as where we are here in the states, we have to be critical by saying and asking and this is my responsibility. Im a western european citizen and critical towards my own governments and saying do you know what, if you want democracy in the world, you better be consistent with democracy values. Dont preach democracy when it suits you and forget the people. And dont tell me now that you are so caring about the blood of the people while you are leading so many people where 170 people are being killed every day in syria. We forgot the United Nations in iraq with Saddam Hussein because of weapons of mass destruction we got this and lied about it and now we are following the United Nations. The United Nations once again when it suits us. I dont think this is consistent. My position is very much to say as citizens and as scholars and as intellectuals, the best way we can help the west as much as the muslim majority country is to be principles, to know that politics is politics. But we still need more, we need more politic. Rose even secretary rice when she was secretary of state went to egypt and said essentially that perhaps we need to reexamine who weve been supporting, do you remember that. Yes, thats completely true. To reexamine is not enough. Rose thank you. This book is call islam in the arab awakening. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Rose thank you for joining us. See you next time. 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