Did he do it . Tonight, inside the debate datelines followed for a decade. Is the evidence what it seems . Your theory is that the key was planted. Yes. By the police by someone. Nothing about this case suggests that any of the evidence was planted. Do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do. Rare and revealing interviews. Here from both sides. Now that hes aware that theres new testing, hes thrilled. A savvy, experienced criminal. Steven averys guilty. Im lester holt, and this is dateline. Heres andrea canning. Reporter its this years first bingewatching phenomenon, making a murderer, the new true crime documentary on netflix. I dont think anybody really thought that it would have this kind of impact. Reporter the 10part series, dense with details, has inspired online sleuths, white house petitions, and its share of controversy. Steven averys guilty and deserves to be right where he is. There is a murderer out there. And hes not that murderer. Reporter it all follows the case of steven avery and his long journey through the criminal justice system. A journey which began more than 30 years ago in manitowoc, wisconsin. Making a murderer has thrust the steven avery case back into the news, putting this small wisconsin town into the center of a media firestorm. But dateline was here 10 years ago, reporting on this story. Now were back, looking at all the stunning twists to the case along with facts, evidence and interviews not included in the documentary. Weve been on the ground, knocking on doors, poring through Court Records and talking to key players in the case. Life is strange sometimes. In this case, its really strange. Reporter the story begins with the woman who was the victim of a crime that set the whole avery story in motion. I remember thinking this is gonna be my last breath. Reporter her name is penny beerntsen, and though she was not interviewed for the netflix series, she sat down with us in 2005 for this rare tv interview. For penny, life in manitowoc was sweet, literally. Her family owned a popular candy store that has been a local fixture for generations. But on july 29th 1985, that serenity was destroyed. If i had an opportunity to take back one day, i wouldnt have to think twice about what day i would take back. Reporter penny had gone to the beach with her husband and one of her two children. A dedicated runner, penny left her family to go for a jog along the shore. Thats when she noticed a man acting suspiciously. He ran out from behind the bush and was headed towards me, and i immediately knew what he wanted. Reporter she says she panicked and headed for the water, but he caught up with her. I said, ive got two young children, please let me go. Anything i thought he needed to hear and maybe if he heard it he would let me go. Reporter she says he began beating her and demanding sex. And then, eventually, he strangled me until i believe i lost consciousness. Reporter she woke up, and with help from beachgoers, made her way back to her husband and to the hospital. There a Manitowoc County sheriffs deputy asked her to describe her attacker. I remember saying he had a beard and moustache. Reporter penny provided a description and this sketch was later released. She says the sheriff then asked her to look through nine photos to see if she could id her assailant. I looked carefully at each photo and i selected Steven Averys photo. Reporter steven avery, then 23, had a passion for cars, and worked at his familys large auto salvage yard. He had a growing family with a wife and five young children. He had brandnew baby boys, his twin boys. Reporter kim ducat is stevens cousin. Kim remembers when authorities came to arrest him, just hours after penny picked out that photo. What did you think, when you heard that . That that is an extremely serious accusation. Right from the start, i thought, oh, my god. They have the wrong guy. Theres no way. Stevie dont do them things. Reporter but penny told us that back then, she felt certain. I think my confidence that i had selected the right person was boosted when i was told that the person they arrested was the suspect that they had in mind. Reporter penny also viewed a live lineup several days later and again picked out avery. Steven avery had all the wrong things going for him. Reporter Michael Griesbach is an author and assistant District Attorney in Manitowoc County. Who was the steven avery that the police knew back in the day . Steven avery was known for quite a while to the police and to the whole community. Reporter and was racking up a criminal record. What did he do . He poured gasoline on a cat and threw the cat in the fire. Pretty, you know, telling things about what was going on in his mind, violent stuff. He also had rammed his pickup truck into the vehicle of a woman who was driving by. And he held her at gunpoint. Reporter avery had been convicted of burglary as well. In pennys case, avery was charged with attempted murder, false imprisonment and sexual assault. I was just absolutely devastated, when that happened. Its like, theres no way stevie did somethin like that. Reporter avery pleaded not guilty, insisting he was nowhere near the beach that day. He went on trial in december of 1985. He produces 16 alibi witnesses who confirm that he was in green bay 75 minutes after the assault occurred. Right. So it was a very good alibi as these things go. Reporter but penny testified, and her unwavering identification of avery made a powerful case for the state. Then it was the jurys turn. It seemed like it took forever for the verdict to be read and, when it was read, having this huge sense of relief that steven avery had been convicted for assaulting me, and that a dangerous man was off the streets. Reporter a judge sentenced avery to 32 years in prison. And, steve was turned down on every appeal. I was glad. A sense that maybe i can start to put this behind me. Reporter but that was not to be. She had no idea what lay ahead for her and for avery. When we come back i said to him, whats this about another suspect . Reporter doubts creep into the case. Is the evidence about to point to someone else . The dna came back to not steven avery, but to a known sex offender. I remember thinking, oh, my god, maybe the wrong persons in custody. Technology. Technology. Say, have you seen all the Amazing Technology in geicos mobile app . Mobile app . Look. Electronic id cards, emergency Roadside Service, i can even submit a claim. Wow. Yep, geicos mobile app works like a charm. Geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. Weve gotpeptocopter ummy town. When cold cuts give your belly thunder, pink relief is the first responder, so you can be a business boy wonder fix stomach trouble fast with pepto. Your heart loves omega3s. But theres a difference between the omega3s in fish oil and those in megared krill oil. Unlike fish oil, megared is easily absorbed by your body. Which makes your heart, well, megahappy. Happier still, megared is proven to increase omega3 levels in 30 days. Megared. The difference is easy to absorb. Cathys gotten used to the sme. In her kitchen rbage. Yup, shes gone noseblind. She thinks it smells fine, but her guests smell this. Ding, flies, meow febreze air effects heavy duty has up to. Two times the odoreliminating power to. Remove odors youve done noseblind to [inhales] mmm. Use febreze air effects, till its fresh and try febreze small spaces. To continuously eliminate up to two times the odors. For 30 days febreze small spaces and air effects, two more ways. [inhale exhale mnemonic] to breathe happy. One. Is all it takes. To turn the tables. Crest 3d white toothpaste. Removes 5 times more stains. Than the red box. For a smile like that, crest 3d white. Is the way to whiten. Reporter steven avery was convicted of brutally attacking penny beerntsen on a wisconsin beach in 1985. He was sentenced to prison for 32 years. But avery kept appealing his conviction. Two times in the court of appeals, they upheld it. Reporter still, he insisted the Manitowoc County sheriff had arrested the wrong man. And some others in Law Enforcement thought avery was right. Thats because the City Police Department had another man on their radar back in 1985. A man by the name of gregory allen, who the manitowoc City Police Department, as opposed to the Sheriffs Department, had under surveillance for a series of horrible crimes entries into homes, assaults of young women in the home late at night. Reporter a city detective told the Sheriffs Department they should look at allen, because he also fit the description penny provided. Allens photo was never shown to penny. He should have been, right off the bat, a suspect. And his picture should have been included in the original photo array. Thats one of the things that bothers penny to this day. Reporter and in her interview with dateline back in 2005, penny herself revealed something startling penny told us she got a call from someone in the manitowoc City Police Department, not long after the Sheriffs Department had already put avery behind bars. He identified himself, and said, we have another suspect in mind who is not steven avery, but who looks a great deal like steve. And wed like to ask you some questions. Reporter penny says the Manitowoc Police detective never named the suspect, and the call really rattled her. I remember hanging up the phone thinking, oh my god, maybe the wrong persons in custody. Reporter penny said she called the sheriff. And i said to him, whats this about another suspect . And he said, the manitowoc Police Department doesnt have jurisdiction. We will look into this. Dont talk to them, it will only confuse you. Reporter steven avery sat in prison for the next 16 years. Then in 2001 he got the wisconsin Innocence Project to take on his case. The attorneys there were able to get two hairs found on penny after her attack tested for dna. In september 2003, the results were in. One thing happened after the other reporter griesbach, who was working in the d. A. s office back then, remembers that moment well. I received a telephone call along with another prosecutor in the office, from the wisconsin state crime lab. Reporter he recalls the crime lab employee asking him and his colleague if they were sitting down. Because she had some news that might be shocking. The dna came back to not steven avery, but to a fellow who was a known sex offender still serving time in prison for a crime that he committed ten years after the assault of penny beerntsen. Reporter pennys husband and a friend broke the news to her. And i knew that i had identified the wrong person before they told me, just by the fact that neither one had any color in their face. Reporter turned out the dna belonged to none other than gregory allen. The man the Manitowoc Police told the Sheriffs Office they should have been looking at in the first place. That day was much more difficult than the day of the assault for me. I just couldnt grasp the magnitude of being, you know, an unwitting participant in this huge miscarriage of justice. You raped penny beerntsen. No, i didnt. Reporter allen denied assaulting penny when dateline spoke with him in 2005, and was never charged with the crime, because the statute of limitations had passed. But a judge completely exonerated avery, and freed him from prison. After 18 years of darkness and despair he walked out into the light of the media glare oh gosh, oh, steve. Yeah, i could stay out here all day long and nobody tell me what to do. That feels good. What did you say to him . What did he say to you that day . I think i commented on his beard. cause it was so big and long. And i told him to get rid of it. And i told him i loved him. And i was glad that he was home. Reporter home to a new life, as he became the poster child in wisconsin for Wrongful Convictions, testifying at the state capitol. My family stopped calling for a while, it was hard. So then i told the old lady to leave. Reporter penny wanted to make things right with steven avery, and got her chance when the two met face to face in madison. I began by apologizing and saying how inadequate as i knew my words were. I said, is it alright if i give you a hug . And he didnt wait for an answer. He hugged me and then i said so only he could hear, steve, im so sorry. And he said back, its okay, penny, its over. Reporter avery didnt blame penny, but he did blame the manitowoc District Attorney and sheriff, suing them for 36 million for his Wrongful Conviction. That made kim nervous. I did tell him to be careful, you know . Manitowoc wasnt done with him. Why did you think they werent done with him . Just something just told me they werent gonna hand that steve avery 36 million or any kinda money, but they were just going to be watching him. Reporter and soon deputies would be watching, because when a woman went missing in manitowoc, the last person to see her alive appeared to be steven avery. Coming up, a young photographer vanishes on assignment. Her phone was last used in or around he vicinity of Steven Averys salvage yard. Reporter steven avery, on the radar again . What will investigators find this time . This is a big moment. It is the moment. Reporter when dateline continues. Reporter it was fall, 2005. Steven avery was starting a new life in his second year of freedom, and suing Manitowoc County for 36 million for his Wrongful Conviction. Investigators say the 25yearold reporter but another big story was shaking up this town. A young woman had gone missing. I know, if i was missing, id want somebody looking for me. Reporter her name was Teresa Halbach, a 25yearold photographer. Shed been out taking pictures in manitowoc for auto trader magazine. After two days and no word from her, teresas family launched a search. We just want her to come home. Reporter her parents were desperate for an answer. Please we beg you. We know shes out there. We just want to find her. Reporter ken kratz was the District Attorney of Calumet County back in 2005. He worked with investigators tracking teresas cell phone activity. Did you get a immediate hit on her cell phone . We we got information that suggested her phone was last used in or around the vicinity of Steven Averys salvage yard. Reporter it was a stunning turn of events. Steven avery was back in the cross hairs of Law Enforcement. He quickly confirmed teresa had been at the yard on october 31st. Shed come by to take pictures of this van that his sister was selling. Teresa even left a voicemail before she stopped by. Hello this is teresa with auto trader magazine. Im the photographer and just giving you a call to let you know that i could come out there today. Umm, in the afternoon, it would probably be around 2 00. Reporter two things kratz noticed even though teresa had been there before to shoot photos, she didnt seem to know where she was going. I dont have your address or anything, so i cant stop by without getting a call back from you. Reporter and avery had placed two calls to her that day but blocked his caller i. D. He told investigators teresa did find her way and left around 2 30 after she took the photos. But investigators couldnt find anyone who had seen her since that visit to averys. For days, Law Enforcement followed lots of leads, but turned up nothing. Then, a big break. Police got a call. We are at averys salvage. Reporter volunteers searching for teresa found something, and one of them reported in to the Calumet County sheriff. We have found a rav4. It is all covered up. Its all covered up . Not all covered, but its got a lot of stuff on it, branches. Reporter it was teresas car, right there in the avery salvage yard. This is a big moment to find the car. It is the moment. It is the moment that turns this case from a missing persons investigation into a criminal investigation. Reporter crime technicians transported teresas car to their lab, where it was scoured for evidence. Male blood is is found in the vehicle. Female blood is found in the vehicle. Its gonna take a couple of days to get a dna profile. Reporter Calumet County authorities took the lead in the case because of the pending lawsuit avery had filed against Manitowoc County. Detectives questioned avery again. Do you know where shes at . Who . Teresa. Oh, no. And did have you anything to do at all with her disappearing . No, no. And the only time that shes ever been to your house is just to knock on the door. Yeah, thats it. Reporter kratz says, in another interview, avery added this detail. He also says importantly, that he never touches the car, never touches the suv at all. Reporter but the evidence seemed to tell a different story. This blood stain in particular, found on the dashboard of teresas car. The crime lab determined it was averys blood. Interestingly, avery showed deputies a cut on his finger. And detectives zeroed in on Something Else the cars hood latch, where they found averys dna. None of it looked good for avery. But, just as he had before, he insisted they had the wrong guy. All i have to say, i didnt do it. Reporter he spoke out to nbcs green bay affiliate wgba in a series of rarely seen interviews. Did you have anything to do with teresas disappearance . No, no. I would never do nothing like that. Reporter but investigators didnt believe him and continued to search. Assistant d. A, Mike Griesbach remembers when he heard about the next, gruesome discovery near averys trailer. Its one of those scenes you dont forget in in your mind. A police dog hit on this burn barrel, where human bones and remains were found. Reporter officers also found bones in a second location on the avery property. They were later confirmed to be teresas. At that point, we knew that this was indeed very likely where Teresa Halbach met her last day. Reporter then, after multiple searches in averys trailer, one more big clue. A manitowoc detective said he shook a small cabinet, and this key fell to the floor. It was the key to teresas car, and it had averys dna on it. On november 15, two weeks after teresa went missing, d. A. Kratz held a news conference. I intend to file a criminal complaint in Manitowoc County charging steven avery with first degree intentional homicide. Reporter Steven Averys two years of freedom suddenly screeched to a halt. The poster child for Wrongful Convictions was behind bars once again. But as they prepared to make their case, kratzs team was stuck. They still didnt know exactly how and where teresa died. Then, early march, 2006, four months after teresas death, ken kratz called another big press conference. He said Steven Averys nephew had confessed that he and avery killed teresa together. Kratz went into graphic detail, which we wont repeat here. There is a substantial amount of physical evidence that now makes sense. All right . That now fits a lot of pieces together. Reporter the prosecutor charged the nephew, 16yearold Brendan Dassey, as a coconspirator in teresas murder. With dasseys statements, kratz began constructing a narrative. And investigators returned to the avery property once more and found this in his garage, a bullet fragment, with teresas dna on it. It matched the rifle that was over Steven Averys bed. Reporter with that, kratz had a final piece of the puzzle. Steven averys trial began in february, 2007. All of the evidence points to one person. Reporter d. A. Kratz didnt call Brendan Dassey to the stand, but relied on the physical evidence to say what he believed happened steven avery lured teresa out to his property, disguising his calls to her. Kratz said that when she got there, avery shot her in his garage. He then shoved her into the back of her car and later burned her body. The physical evidence, the dna evidence, the eyewitness testimony, the scientific evidence, common sense all point to one person. Reporter but averys Defense Attorneys said that evidence pointed in a completely different direction. What would a case look like if somebody was being framed . It would look a lot like this case. Coming up, the key. Your theory is that the key was planted . Yes. The bones. There was clear evidence that the bones had been moved. The blood. Was any of this evidence what it seemed . Everytime she sniffs. This happens. Still there. Still, still there. Now thats how you rock a long travel day. New scent duets from gain. Its the gain that keeps on keeping on. Sniff, sniff, hooray yeah, i was just talking uhabout yourico . Emergency Roadside Service and how its available 24 7 and then our car overheated. What are the chances . Can you send a tow truck please . Uh, the location . Youre not going to believe this but its um. Its in a tree. I wish i was joking, mate, but its literally stuck in a tree. car horn honking a chainsaw . No, no, all we really need is a tow truck. Day or night, geicos emergency Roadside Service is there for you. Narrator breakfast. Dishes. Dinner. Dishes. Marriage. Dishes. Divorce. Dishes. Sleeping. snoring sputtering dishes. Not sleeping. Dishes. Life. Dishes. Death. Dishes. Existence. Dishes. Dishes, dishes, dishes. Every dish, every time. Only finish has the power ball to take on anything. Is it keeps the food out. For me before those little pieces would get in between my dentures and my gum and it was uncomfortable. Just a few dabs is clinically proven to seal out more food particles. Super poligrip is part of my life now. Tmom didnt want another dog. She said its too much work. Lulus hair just floats. Uhh help me doorbell mom, check this out. Wow. Swiffer sweeper, and dusters. This is what im talking about. Look at that. Sticks to this better than it sticks to lulu. Thats your hair lulu mom, can we have another dog . laughing trap and lock up to 4x more dirt, dust and hair than the store brand stop cleaning. Start swiffer ing you may be seated. Reporter steven avery was standing trial for the murder of Teresa Halbach in 2007. For his defense, he hired two of the most respected attorneys in wisconsin, dean strang and jerry buting. The vast majority of their evidence was all circumstantial. In court, the attorneys set out to prove a simple defense steven avery was framed for the murder of Teresa Halbach by the Manitowoc County Sheriffs Department desperate to stop his 36 Million Dollar civil lawsuit. Avery said as much in his interviews with reporters. Reporter who would wanna set you up in Something Like this . The only thing i can think of is Manitowoc County with the money. So, they didnt have to pay nothin out. While he was awaiting trial avery settled his 36 Million Dollar lawsuit for 400 thousand dollars. The county did not acknowledge any wrongdoing. Avery used the money for his defense. During the trial, defense attorney buting told the jury that the states evidence was weak, and could easily have been planted, beginning with that car key. Your theory is that the key was planted in the residence . That is where we thought the evidence pointed, yes. Buting pointed out that the detective who found that key shouldnt have been there at all because of the lawsuit. And he only found the key after the trailer had been searched multiple times. It was not found in, you know, six or seven earlier entries to this trailer. And were talking about a trailer it didnt add up. Reporter do you think theres any chance that that key couldve been stuck behind that no. Reporter little side table . No. None. Its just a twoshelf end table, and you can see all the way to the back. Theres no place it could be hidden. Whats more at trial, prosecutors told the jury that averys dna was found on the key, but the odd thing was they didnt find her dna, even though this is supposedly a key that she would use every day. And remember that bullet fragment with teresas dna found in averys garage . The defense called it the magic bullet, arguing that it, too, was found under strange circumstances. One, it had never been discovered in a weeks worth of searches of the garage back in november. Two, it was the only piece of evidence that had Teresa Halbachs dna on it. In fact, averys lawyers thought the physical evidence the state had linking him to the murder was all suspect, including teresas bones found outside his trailer. There was clear evidence, undisputed evidence, that the bones had been moved. Reporter why are you so sure that the bones were moved . Because there were her bones found in two different locations. The defense argued that the moved bones showed avery couldnt have killed teresa. Because nobody would take a body, burn it somewhere, and then come and dump the bones right outside your own garage. That made no sense at all. And that evidence from the hood latch . Reporter how do you explain Steven Averys dna being found on the hood latch of the car . That really was sort of a red herring. The dna that was found was not a large quantity. It was consistent with what you might find from a transferred type of dna. Buting believes an evidence tech at the scene may have gotten averys dna on a glove and then transferred it to the latch by accident. What is clear is that there were no fingerprints of mr. Avery anywhere on the hood latch or on the hood area where the latch is or anywhere on the rav4, inside or out. But the stain of averys blood found in teresas car was what really became a focus for the attorneys. Thats because buting learned that a sample of averys blood had been taken during his Wrongful Conviction years before and it still sat in the Manitowoc County Clerks Office. When we went to the Clerks Office and saw that there was still a styrofoam box that is had been slit open with evidence tape, we got a court order to to then bring in the prosecutor and have them open it in front of everybody. It was captured on video and made part of the court record. Reporter what did you think when you saw that tape had been cut . I thought it was suspicious. And buting noticed something he thought seemed very strange about the blood vial. We saw a hole in the top it started to look really, really suspicious. With that, the attorneys thought they had a compelling argument their theory someone had taken blood from that stored sample and planted it in teresas car to frame steven avery for murder. The vial of blood has a hole. But the prosecution said not so fast. In court they pointed out the blood in the vial has a preservative in it. When the fbi tested the blood from the car, it didnt find that preservative present. So the prosecution argued there was no way it could have been planted. This vial planting defense even from a common sense standpoint is absolutely ludicrous. At trial the defense gave the jury their bottom line the bits of evidence kratz presented didnt support the brutal murder scene he had described and could have easily been planted. Reporter do you believe that theres no way he committed this crime . From the evidence ive looked at i think he is innocent. I think he certainly was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt under the evidence that was presented. We the jury find the defendant steven avery guilty. But the jurors didnt believe it. After six weeks of trial, they found steven avery guilty of murdering Teresa Halbach. Avery was now heading back to prison this time, for life with that, a parting rebuke from the judge you are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. Reporter did you feel like you had let steven down in any way . You always do. It when you lose, youre always secondguessing yourself. A month later, averys nephew Brendan Dassey was also convicted of murder for his role, and sentenced to life in prison. The saga of steven avery seemed to have ended but two filmmakers would come to ignite the case in a whole new way. Coming up had that blood been tampered with . You could definitely see there was blood around in between the stopper and the glass. Or could there be a hole in the whole theory . There is a hole in the top. Should the hole be there . When dateline continues. And stronger teeth from day one. Using crest toothpaste and mouthwash makes my. Whole mouth feel awesome. And my teeth are stronger too. Crestpro health advanced. Is superior to colgate total. In these 5 areas dentists check. This check up . So good. Go pro with crest prohealth advanced. Moms right. Again ugh. does your carpet ever feel rough and dirty . Dont avoid it, resolve it. Our formula with a special conditioning ingredient, softens your carpet with every use. Its resolve, so you know it cleans and freshens. But it also softens. Resolve. A carpet that welcomes you. And to clean pet messes, try resolve pet expert. To show your roots. With root touch up from nicen easy it blends with leading shades, even salon shades. In just 10 minutes. So pick your shade. And show the world your roots. With root touchup. Geico motorcycle, great rates for great rides. Because you cant beat zero heartburn i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn ahhh the sweet taste of victory prilosec otc. One pill each morning. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. Want to survive a crazy busy day . Start with a positive attitude and positively radiant skin. Aveeno® positively radiant moisturizer. With active naturals® soy. To help reduce the look of brown spots in just four weeks. And another positively brilliant idea. Aveeno® skin brightening scrub to clean and gently exfoliate. Aveeno® naturally beautiful results®. What aremaking a cake ht now . Ayla reminds me of like a master chef and emiana reminds me of like a monster chef. Uh oh. I dont see cake, i just see mess. Its like awful. It feels like i am not actually cleaning it up whats that make mommy do . doorbell whats that . Swiffer wetjet. So much stuff coming up. This is amazing woah. Wow. Now i feel more like making a mess is part of growing up. Stop cleaning. Start swiffering. Dont let dust and allergies get and lifes beautiful moments. With flonase allergy relief, they wont. Most allergy pills only control one inflammatory substance. Flonase controls six. And six is greater than one. Flonase changes everything. We the jury find the defendant steven a. Avery guilty. Steven avery was sentenced to life in prison. But in all that time two filmmakers, Laura Ricciardi and moira demos, were shooting and editing the hundreds of hours of footage, which became making a murderer. Are you surprised at how its just completely exploded . I am. I mean, ive gotten emails and contacts from literally all over the world. Reporter the tenpart series examines the trials of steven avery taking viewers behind the scenes as jerry buting and dean strang make their defense case. All right, so thats it, thats the evidence. Now what . Well now we argue it. I was hesitant at first. But i realized that it, you know, this would be an opportunity to see what its like to, to put on a case from the defense side. Reporter former prosecutor ken kratz did not participate in the netflix series. And while he did win in the courtroom, hes now playing defense in another court, public opinion. He continues to refute the defenses theory that steven avery was the victim of a frameup by the Manitowoc County Sheriffs Department. With any one of these facts, you can come up with a whatif scenario. But at some point this Conspiracy Theory collapses under its own weight. And that vial of averys blood at the center of the defenses frame up theory, has gotten a lot of attention. The seal was clearly broken. Thats really the big aha moment. Yeah, it was. And get this right in the center of the top of the tube is a little tiny hole. Just about the size of a hyperdermic needle. Reporter kratz says that hole in the vial is easily explained. Every one of these vacusealed tubes is exactly the same. Theyre all gonna have that. Nothing magic or, oh my goodness, look it was tampered with. Ken kratz said that there should be a hole in the stopper going into the vial. Thats how the blood gets into the vial. Well, actually it depends, some of them dont do it that way. And when they do, theyre selfsealing so that there wouldnt be this kind of hole, like, like was visible in this particular stopper. Reporter and buting says on closer examination, he noticed Something Else about that blood vial. This part didnt make the documentary. But you could definitely see that, oh, right up to the edge, there was blood around in between the stopper and the glass. So what does that tell you if theres blood around that the stopper, the rubber stopper had to have been removed from the tube after the blood was put in there, in some way or another for there to be blood trapped in between it. Reporter we spoke with dennis ernst, who is one of the nations leading experts in blood collection. He had no role in the avery trial. Around here the defense attorney pointed out that some blood had gathered between the glass and the stopper. Is that something you should see or is it something maybe sinister . No, not sinister at all. That stopper is not a complete tight fit down at the lower ends of it so its typical and common to see blood gathering around the stopper around the inside of the tube. And theres a hole at the top. Should that hole be there . Well, it had better be there. Theres always a telltale puncture mark in the tubes that are properly filled so the presence of a hole means absolutely nothing. Reporter we also went to the Manitowoc County Clerks Office and saw something interesting. Court documents show a prison nurse was prepared to testify that she made the hole when drawing the blood from avery in 1996. But buting says something more suspicious than the hole was the fact that the evidence tape that normally would seal the stopper and the tube itself was missing. And that there was no explanation for. We spoke with the current Manitowoc County sheriff, robert herman. What would you say to to people who just feel that your Sheriffs Department was corrupt, that steven avery was framed . Well, i first of all i know its not true. I have 100 confidence in the deputies that were out there. To say that, you would have to have a lot more people onboard to say that evidence was planted, or steven avery was framed. Is there a possible scenario where steven avery is truly guilty, as he was found to be, but that someone played a little loose with the evidence . You ask questions like, like a defense lawyer. Anything is possible, an elephant could come walking through the back door over there. Its certainly possible its highly unlikely. Nothing about this case, suggests that any of this evidence was planted. Reporter making a murderer may have renewed that debate, but theres a brand new chapter opening up in this case, and that blood vial could hold the key. Coming up, a new attorney for steven avery. You think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do. New hope for his nephew. And new candor for the reporter making a murderer and the publicity surrounding it have made steven avery one of the most famous prisoners in america. In recent letters to wisconsin media, avery has insisted, the real killer is still out there. Monday manitowoc has been seeing both sides of the attention now. How does he feel about all the attention that this is getting right now . Hes very excited. Hes been saying it for 11 years now that hes innocent. Hes happy that people are finally listening. Reporter making a murderer is making another prisoner famous, too. Remember Brendan Dassey . Brendan told investigators that he had helped his uncle steven kill teresa. But he immediately recanted the statement. Brendans story is now outraging many viewers who have seen the confession tapes. Tell us, and what else did you do . Come on. Something with the head. Reporter his new attorneys, Steven Drizin and laura nirider, say brendan was just 16 years old then, has a low iq, and was coaxed into making a false confession after investigators fed him details of the crime. We have the evidence brendan. We just need you to to be honest with us. That he cut off her hair. What else was done to her head . That he punched her. What else . What did he make you do, brendan . Its okay. What did he make you do . Cut her. What else happens to her in her head . Its extremely, extremely important you tell us this, for us to believe you. Come on, brendan, what else . Thats all i can remember. All right, im just gonna come out and ask you. Who shot her in the head . He did. Then why didnt you tell us that . cause i couldnt think of it. Reporter at the end of the tape, he can be heard talking to his mom. They got to my head. Huh . What do you mean by that . Making a murderer has been such a revelation for brendans case because for the first time in ten years, hes finally getting his story listened to. Reporter and his attorneys say that story brendan told investigators simply doesnt match the evidence. For example, he described a bloody stabbing scene in averys trailer, yet investigators never found any of teresas blood there. The film restored his presumption of innocence. Everybody who saw that film is left with one indelible impression, this kid got screwed, and he deserves a new trial. Reporter his attorneys have asked a federal court to review his case. Do you think Brendan Dassey might actually get a new trial . I dont think so. Reporter ken kratz prosecuted both cases and Still Believes brendan is guilty, that his confession fit the evidence. But he does have one regret, that graphic Conference Press he gave. There is a substantial amount of physical evidence. Having to do it all over again, i would not have given that press conference. I would have simply released the complaint. His other regrets are personal. Making a murderer highlights a scandal he faced after the avery verdict. Kratz resigned in 2010 as Calumet County d. A. After he admitted to sexually harassing a victim in a Domestic Violence case he was trying. I covered the story back then and make my own quick appearance in making a murderer. Reported the harassment to the police who reporter kratz says hes a changed man. I look back to the bravado and the narcissism really that i experienced and expressed. And it is surprising to me, you know. I was a jerk. Reporter kratz, now a defense attorney, still stands by his prosecutions of both Brendan Dassey and steven avery. Steven averys guilty and deserves to be right where he is. Reporter this woman disagrees. Averys new attorney, kathleen zellner, is nationally known for winning Wrongful Conviction cases. I caught up with her in late january arcs she was about to visit avery in prison. Million dollar question. Do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do, yeah. Is there anything you can tell us about that . Well, i can tell you, generally, that since 2007, there have been significant advances in forensic testing. So, thats one of the things were doing. Are you going to retest the blood . We will do everything necessary thats forensically available. You actually bought a rav 4. The same i did. Model as teresas, why . Well, because i want to understand the hood latch, battery cables, where the blood was supposedly found in the car. I want to examine what was not tested in the car that should have been tested. Do you have any alternate suspects . Yes we do. We do. Clearly there are other people were looking at. Thats always done in a case like this. How is steven doing . Steven is doing much better. Steven, now that hes aware that theres new testing that can be done, hes thrilled. When someone wants every possible test done that could be done, that would prove their guilt or innocence. Thats when you know theyre innocent. Reporter Michael Griesbach has written a book about the avery case, the innocent killer. He says that with all the attention this story has received, one voice has been missing. Do you think shes been forgotten in all of this . I think she has been forgotten in all of this. A person lost her life, and somehow, we have to try to keep sight of that. Reporter in our searches through the evidence in this case, we came across one more piece of tape. A grainy video diary theresa made. Prosecutors played it at averys sentencing to remind people of a life lost. I just want to know that whenever i do die, i just want people i love to know that whenever i die, that i was happy. Thats all for now. Im lester holt. Thanks for joining us. This sunday, it may have been Donald Trumps worst week on the campaign trail yet. He defended his Campaign Manager charged with assaulting a woman reporter. He called for women who have abortions to be punished. There has to be some form of punishment. For the woman . Yeah. He says hes open to japan and south korea having Nuclear Weapons. And now hes slipping in the polls. Is the Donald Trump Campaign finally crumbling, or will he survive as hes done so many times before . Plus, Hillary Clinton still cant put away bernie sanders, and the frustration is beginning to show. I am so tick of the Sanders Campaign lying about me. My exclusive interview this morning with secretary clinton. Also, with all the talk of a contested convention, what did john kasich mean by this . Mitt romney running for president . Weve been wondering that ourselves. Is it possible someone not in the race today could be the republican nominee in july . And joining me for insight and analysis this morning are david brooks of New York Times. Amy walter of the cook political report. Helene cooper of the New York Times and political reporter Charles Benson from our nbc affiliate in milwaukee. Happening opening day, and welcome to sunday. Its meet the press. From nbc news in washington, this is meet the press with chuck todd. Good sunday morning. And, yes, happy opening day, again. How many times have people said, okay now, donald trump is done. Hes through . And how many times has it turned out to be true . Well, not once. So its with that big flashing yellow light in mind that we point out that never has donald trump had a worse run or the idea of a trump collapse look more possible. Just this week trumps Campaign Manager was arrested and charged with battery. Trump withdrew his pledge to back whoever wins the republican nomination. He arpged it might be time to let japan and south korea arm themselves with Nuclear Weapons to reduce americas military burden. He told Msnbcs Chris Matthews women should be punished for having abortions. Trump has articulated five positions on abortions in just over 48 hours. Wrapping up this terrible, horrible, no good, very bad week for donald trump, he now trails ted cruz in a number of polls in wisconsin which holds its primary on tuesday. Trumps serial explanations on abortion this week have been condemned by both republicans and democrats, including Hillary Clinton. Donald trump said women should be punished for having an abortion. [ audience booing ] he then tried to distance himself once that kind of reaction came out from his outrageous comments, but we all heard them. Secretary clinton is having her own problem