No. One listening to them is kind of I'm Megan my feet. Despite being a century into the women's movement it can at times feel as though progress has stalled indeed old stereotypes men and women's roles in the home persist and some recent reports show that a significant number of American millennial is still believe that having a male breadwinner and a woman who stays home and cares for the kids in the household chores is an ideal option 27 percent of males aged $14.00 to $24.00 say they believe women's gains have come at the expense of men but why the economic realities of American families in the American working class as well as things like the lack of parental leave benefits and job security that exist in the u.s. Today all factor into the choices people make at home and work and impact what they believe about their own disenfranchisement while the backlash against women's rights is a cause for concern and it's useful to get the full picture in order to do so I spoke with Stephanie Coontz who's article do millennial men want Stan home wives appeared in The New York Times on March 31st Stephanie teaches history and family studies at Evergreen State College in Olympia Washington is the director of research at the Council on Contemporary Families and is the author of the way we never were American families and then a style judge. Here's an interview. Despite you know the apparent popularity of feminism these days I do worry that the younger generations genuine interest in women's liberation has waned I wonder what your perspective is on that I mean our so-called Millennial zx apathetic when it comes to fighting patriarchy. Well I don't think that it's quite that extreme I think that the main point of the research that's coming out is not that millennia holes are moving backwards but that there's no guarantee that they will continue to move forward and I think some people have just kind of assumed that we'll get to a feminist heaven by generational replacement and the new evidence suggests that that's not true for a couple of reasons 1st of all there is a growing gender gap that is in part because of women's expanded aspirations but young millennial men are actually more likely to say that we are that equality is a good thing but that where where that where there are close enough then older men are who are having to interact with women who are complaining about more about it as they age and see what's happening now we're also seeing that the m.t.v. Poll found that younger millennialists almost a quarter of them think that women's gains have come at men's expense and I think that another important part of this research is to show that people go up and down in their attitudes toward women's liberation and there are a lot of counteracting trends in the society such as the tremendous losses that young men have undergone especially men without a college education and less we keep explaining what's happening and explaining why it's not women's gains that are the. Problem facing Bam Leigh's and facing man there's no guarantee that we'll continue to go in a progressive direction but I don't think that gloomy as justify the. So that it's interesting that 27 percent of the younger millennial see women's gains as having come at the expense of men and you know women's gains are somehow hurting men today what's behind that well there's a kernel of truth in their sense of loss not that it's coming because of women but you can see why people would be open to this kind of claim from social conservatives because young man have found that their real wages have been falling after a long period of really having tremendous gains from 147 and 179 every generation of men aged 25 to 35 was earning 3 to 4 times as much as their fathers had in real dollars at the same age so it was a time of just thinking oh gosh things are getting better and better and better but since 1980 they have started earning less in real wages and that's even extended to some of the college educated men but it's a particular problem for men with only a high school degree or some college so for them what they see is women's wages continuing to rise up until very recently although women's wages started from a lower base we human beings are relative animals and so we judge yourself in relation to our past trajectory and so when young men see themselves falling further behind compared to their fathers and compared the progress they were making in the past they feel a sense of loss and demoralization that women don't feel when we look at our and our grandma. There is for example and how car we've come since them even though we've not yet caught up with them we are doing so much better than women of the past that I think we feel a sense of optimism and hope another factor that it's important is that as a society we've made more progress that Elaine The Feminine Mystique then we have the masculine mystic Now make no mistake we have made real progress and as young millennium goals have entered marriages and relationships we're seeing some tremendous progress there but in those early days of junior high school high school and even the early twenties young women feel much more capable of doing jobs that were traditionally associated with men you know when I was really rough and talk a lot don't excel at sports don't be too smart at school young women don't feel that pressure anymore they feel like they can take on any task or activity traditionally associated with men and that adds to their their identity as women and as persons but never have not yet attained the same kind of freedom they don't feel so free to take on tasks and activities formally associated with women in fact they get teased and bullied when they did they begin to grow out of that as they get older but it's a real problem for young men so you put together the economic loss and the continuation of the masculine mystique and I'm not at all surprised that there is this ambivalence and a small section of minority but still an important section of men who misunderstand what's happening and think that the are losing in relationship to women as opposed to the question of how working people as a whole happens. So you recently wrote about a set of reports that were really serious and lead by the Council on. In contemporary families and their reports show that fewer of those aged 18 to 25 support egalitarian family arrangements today than the same age group 20 years ago I wonder if you can talk more about those specific findings and what that says to you. Well we have 2 sources one is the Monitoring the Future survey of high school seniors and Joanna happen and David Carter have been following this and asking young people how they feel about women's roles at work and at home and it says the $990.00 s. They got about 90 percent really really supporting a strongly women's opportunities and norms capabilities in the public world but they've seen an upswing still a minority but an upswing in the number of people who think that it's better wording of the question is it's better for everyone concerned if the man is the achiever in the outside world and the woman takes care of home and family we see an uptick in the number of men and women who say that that's true and even an uptick in the number of men and women who say that it's better if the man makes the most important decisions in the home so that is concerning to us among 18 to 25 year olds that's a more complicated question because the general social survey that asked that question of that age group doesn't have a very large sample it's only about 200 so it's very volatile from 2 years to 2 years we saw between 19042014 this decline in support big gala Jerrine as a and in those years it looked over that 20 year period as though the decline were driven primarily by men but I had embarrassing experience of the day after my. Using the. Relation the press knew 2016 that it became available and it showed a rebound in young men's support for egalitarian relations when you average it out over the decades we're still seeing that there's a slightly higher support for traditionalism in the 2 thousands than there was in the 1990 s. But it no longer looks like it's necessarily driven just by young men. I wonder if you think that there is a backlash happening again through women's rights rape now you know is there anything you know is there a new backlash I guess I should say because there's always some kind of backlash against feminism but is there a particularly strong or notable backlash happening currently Well when we put together this symposium for the council and never a family's we've got a lot of different ideas about what's happening for example Keppen and Carter believe that people are settling into an idea that allows them to accept equality in the outside world but to not think of men and women as interchangeable and they call that egalitarian essentialism the idea being that communism is just about personal choice not about politics and as long as the choices are not actually constrained and you're forced to quit work upon motherhood that those choices must be for the best of course this this idiology completely ignores the way that women are channeled into these choices long before they're old enough to make real ones we have new evidence that comes out for example that age 5 girls think that other girls are just as intelligent as always. Age 6 they tend to think of boys as the smarter sex and girls as the sex that tries harder she and another study she. Those that somewhere between kindergarten and 1st grade teachers start discriminating against girls in the way that they teach math to them so these are very early choices that you're channelled into an egalitarian essential as I'm maybe sort of a justification for not fighting back against those choices but there are other possibilities to sample some research quite a researchers point out that this is a generation that experienced the teenage years during the aftermath of the housing crisis and right during the recession a period when many men were losing their jobs are being cut bat when women were having to step up to the plate in a society that has no support systems for do earner families and so another possible there really is that some kids have seen their parents really struggling with how to divide work and family you know 3 jobs basically 2 people without any support systems in our paid parental leave and flexible work hours in affordable childcare and decided that maybe it would be easier whatever their ideal might be to go back to a more traditional arrangement and one is thing and that supports that interpretation is that when we look at Europe we see no such follow up in young people support for egalitarian as the support for a gala Terry has them there where you have good work family policies that make it easier to integrate work and family life we've seen and continuing rise in support for gender equality but you also raise the point of polarization and another a political scientist has found that in a period when men are losing income to women that you get a polarization and they. That liberal men tend to become more liberal on many questions but the conservative men tend to become more conservative so this is kind of a moving target re still trying to figure out what's happening and yet another factor is that in 1994 a much higher proportion of 18 to 25 year olds were married and had moved into jars where they had to deal with the other sex as you know colleagues rather than as potential partners or dating partners and that makes a big difference too because one of the puzzlements when we 1st began to see these big years was that we've seen that young millennial who are in relationships are in fact more behaving in more egalitarian and ways than the older generation it used to be that for marriages formed in the in the seventy's and eighty's if a woman had more education than her husband that raised the risk of divorce up until the ninety's if a woman had higher earnings than her husband that raised the risk of divorce for marriages form since the early ninety's neither of those things is true and we find that young men are expressing tremendous work family conflict themselves and are in fact doing a lot more childcare and cooking and cleaning than many of the past did so it's a mixed bag here and I took for me the real takeaway is that these things don't just happen in and of themselves that people get mixed messages they have mixed experiences and particularly in America where parents are more stressed than in any of 22 countries that were recently studied by Jennifer glass and we quote more and happiness compared to non parents and that is entirely explained by the lack of work family policies here. I think that it's very important to understand that these things are always subject to backlash because they are so stressful for us and there's of course a large social conservative movement that was to say the stress is not because of our lack of work family policies but it's because it's bad for families to go out and work and that's contrary that's so to me this sounds like it connects to trumps the election I mean you know we're a century into the women's movement we understand as a society that women are equal or should be equal I mean supposedly we understand this and yet America. Elected this total sergeant this in you know he had a lot of support and has a lot of support still you know this is a man who brags openly about sexual assault who is allegedly abusive who obviously sees women you know as sex objects and less than human he doesn't see women as his equal what is this tell you about the state of women's Ray defectiveness of the feminist movement the current state of politics and and ideas around gender in the u.s. In particular and. Well I mean it certainly confirms that some feminists have been living in a bar or that they have underestimated the extent of the resistance to change. And also that many feminists and liberals have tremendously underestimated and in my opinion been woefully neglectful of the very real problems facing working class families in my view when Clinton talked a lot about you know the needs for work family supports and this sort of thing and whenever she would talk about inclusion I would sit there with my husband watching her speeches on t.v. And I would say why. Why don't you add meat packers to that list of people we want inclusive you know manager truck drivers there was this real Nicolette of working class families that have big screen tremendous losses in job security and in real earnings and that's so easy then to get into a situation where people look at the gains that women have made and think maybe those gay and away games that blacks Americans and Hispanics that may think that maybe those gains are being made at their expense that's not true the same things that do benefit women and blacks and are hurting them now other things that hurt white working class Americans that's the dealing in zation of jobs the outsourcing not just to other countries but the outsourcing of jobs to independent contractors so that the main employers no longer have to worry about paying benefits and decent wages they can outsource it to these companies who compete to race to the bottom and that's what's driven down the real wages of white working class men and it is also driving down the wages of minorities and women but you're in a situation where because white working class men always had such an advantage they see the class polarization that's now occurring among women and one man minorities and they see some women and blacks and Hispanics growing up in the earnings distribution and they think of themselves as being left behind by that in fact of course the vast majority of higher earning individuals are still white men but since white male is the defrock in the American kind of discussion and thinking about race and gender those men don't. See that as as representing them they see they see the class issues there and what they see is this new rising up 10 percent or 20 percent of women and minorities in the high earners still very much discriminated against in those high earners so good the higher earners are worried about the glass ceiling but increasingly working class Americans are worried about the sinking floor and to the extent the famine isn't has not really identified our struggles as women with those of our brothers and husbands and colleagues. In the white male working class as well as in the minority working class we have I think contributed to that problem. Such complicated issues I saw an interesting poll of Trump supporters 30 percent of who supported Planned Parenthood and abortion rights didn't want abortion to be completely out Watt and a majority of whom said they were upset by Trump's comments about women but there were other things that seemed to override it and that's a challenge to us to to make sure that other things don't override that just as it's a challenge to the entire movement to take on the racism in the Messiah journey we also have to be much more conscious of these class issues I want to talk a little bit more about marriage because I find that you know the person so traditional marriage to. I find it strange I guess I find it strange that you know even among liberals and progressive people traditional roles within marriages Persis even though as you say you know it's getting better but still I think in most marriages women end up doing the bulk of the. Houseware childrearing and beyond that women continue today to you know do things like take on their husband's name and a lot of these women who take on their has been in marriage of who maybe take on traditional roles within marriage and we've talked about the economic factors that play into all that but when we're talking about choice you know when we're talking about middle class probably liberal women choosing not roles and choosing to take on their husbands the ins and choosing to have traditional ish marriages and and traditional wedding What is that about you know what does that tell you about women's rights in light of these children's Persis you know why why aren't more women pushing back against these ideas. Well again I think we have a complex set of reasons that really varies and that's extremely important not to grow our hard and fast conclusions about the whole group on the basis of these trends I think that you see this kind of traditionalism most in symbolism which is interesting yes embolisms seems to really stay on even with people who are tremendously egalitarian in practice you know it's the man who asks the woman to marry him even though in fact most usually know what's going on and the woman may have been just as much involved and made a decision but boy it's a man who asked yes women tend to take them man's name still I think we may be seeing as the age of marriage continues to rise and you have more women who have established reputations that I think we may see a resurgence of separate names being taken there was a real problem for women in the Seventies and Eighties just because of the question are you know how how are you can do this with the kids. So you know I tend to be a little soft on the question myself I understand they can excel. But the symbolism is seems to be very important to people women's housework is a really interesting thing and again without taking men are the hook and I think that men just have not been socialized to see the kind of housework and especially the kind of executive decision making that has to be done to get the affairs of the household and family going and they often have a kind of learned helplessness you know well what do I do next which of course makes women more likely to step in and feel like it's easier to do it themselves on the other hand I think that we as women have to recognize that even when we're single we do more housework then that men do some of it has been socialized into us and we have to blame not our relationship but our socialization as to whether we can let go of it I know that for myself there are certain aspects of cooking for example that take much longer than it should and it's a form of self soothing for me so you've got that going on you've got a certain amount of gate keeping that we have to recognize that goes on because just as men are socialized in the helplessness we have been socialized into getting a lot out gratification at being the experts as to how the homework said as how the kids are to be raised so we want men to pitch in but more as an unskilled assistant sometimes than as a real partner and I know that I noticed I've talked about gatekeeping for many years it wasn't that long ago when my husband walk in and watch me reloading the dishwasher and said to me you know if you're going to reload it why should I load it in the 1st place. Which made me realize that I was doing the same thing so there's a lot of you know weird. Trying to change hundreds of years of socialization and continually 200 years of extensive socialization that simply women you are no longer under the fun of a man the way you work for thousands of years you are in fact the expert in family life nurturing in childrearing in emotional intelligence and we just as the men learned to rely on that for us we're going to get a certain amount of gratification a bit so we've got to have to struggle with that and at the same time we have to struggle with the incredible lack of support systems true or egalitarian marriages in our society where we have you know every other industrial country in the world. Has guaranteed paid leave for mothers most of the top productive economies in the country all but Switzerland and the United States also now guarantee paid leave poorer fathers they guarantee plus ability they guarantee limits on the right over time paid vacation days the right to take our time to take your kids to the doctor and breastfeeding breaks the only one of those that we have is breastfeeding breaks and that came in very very recently the result is that it's terribly stressful to really recognize an egalitarian household and it's easy to slip into old patterns and. I wanted to come back to something you touched on earlier the idea of choice and the fact that you know it's pretty common in mainstream feminism to consider the idea of choice as kind of a mean point of feminism and I was liberating in and of itself so you know things that may have been considered sexist and regressive 2nd way of feminism might not be considered so today. Because there are things that women believe they're choosing freely I wonder if you see that idea of choice feminism sort of playing into those traditional roles in marriages and maybe discouraging women from pushing back against ideas that would have been considered sexist or aggressive in the sixty's and seventy's Well I think it does operate in that way to some extent I like to be as charitable as I can when I think about people's reactions and I understand why people say Ok I would like the choice to just stay home on the other hand wouldn't be nice if men also had the same choices and when they would be nice if our own choices were actually really made between equally attractive alternatives as for example they might be if I choice was between staying home and specializing in childcare which means it just some extent excluding our hopes are being sent to go from high atop monument peak and look at the mountains this is K.M.'s j. . 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Meet one of them is to be one of you with. High because he spoke. With the micro So it was like go play after Rock On just. Get to sleep this moment. Just to get to sleep early. To. Make it look. Like. It was. Going to work. For the 1st one. For. The record I'm not. Going to go look for something because this is the. Wrong. Song. With the ball because. It gets a little moment a little bit but. Please. Let. Me. Like you. Know. It's. Like no. It's. The biggest. God like. You know if. Something. Gets a. Little it. Might . Like. To go to. Work. For. You Brooke. No. I said. Oh. Sorry please. Call us. Slow mo. But you can. Come. Close shall. Soon. See. These guys see. I. Was. Like oh wow. Problem. From. Food. Food. Food. Food. Food. Food food food. Sleep. The. Food. Food. Food. Cool. Cool. You know. Chief. Chief. Chief. We're going to start playing drums right away out loud with me do so when every 1234 let us play go. Oh you know you've heard that unless they tear into all your favorite records that's the basic bass pro right hands on the symbol and the listener right foot on the face like what I'm going to really go. For some of the way the drummer shows some of the skills some of the listeners play always follows you so keep the tempo nicely steady 123. Make sure you never hold words Oh by that I mean those ever get too fast you're not simply. Going. To listen to records carefully or your favorite record so that usually breaks down into 2 separate fields. It's. Not the mother of one post I was pretty much slower. That's the way to write. Pieces slow and so you really got it mastered slow what you got to play with lower total a little bit faster a little bit faster really straight. Down snow. Trying it's a lot of money. You . Know that you would. If you have been complaining about being too far to the right then your complaining days or years are over. 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