I. Had an experience of speaking in tongues for the 1st time according to what she was saying to me and I had a question on. First Corinthians 13 where it says Chapter 14 verse 2 where Paul is saying that he is it speaks in an unknown tongue because not into men but on to God and I was understood standing tongues to be. Speaking in foreign languages so that other people could understand the Gospel at Pentecost but then there's this other verse that says. That they can speak to God speaking mysteries or I mean just need some clarification on. Well then I think it's very clear was talking about if if if I was sitting there and was talking in a language that you didn't understand and that I didn't understand because that's that's what I understand the tongues is if you're not understanding what you're saying you're merely proclaiming the gospel in the language of a person who doesn't understand the language you're speaking in. That you would say if you're speaking to me and in this language and I don't understand what you're saying you may be talking to God but you're not talking to me I had I have to think of the mob Davis' story of being at Thanksgiving dinner was of his relatives and somebody asked one of the guys to pray down there and he mumbled out this prayer and the other the guide at the other table said I didn't hear word you say and he said that's Ok when talking to you anyway as talking to God and it's so it's the same type of thing you may be talking to God but I don't understand what you're saying and that's the whole issue of that passage is not to say that there's a spiritual language to God quite frankly Dean I don't think God hears any of our language he hears our hearts I mean the heart is the same all over the world isn't it yeah so why would we think that God is up or listening to what we're saying and if that is true that God only hears as if we're talking Why would we ever have a time of silent prayer. Very thought through that one why would you ever say let's oh well why do that because God's not listen to a new nature talking a god is not hearing what we are saying God doesn't have a United Nations interpreter up there God lives on the heart then you see God can read the heart of everyone and the language is unnecessary man it's on the outside godless on the heart and so there's no spacial language to God And again if there was a spatial language to God how am I going to talk to God because I don't have that language. Do you understand so you see what those kind of statements do it's saying in essence you can't talk to God and they should talk in tongues. Well you're just taking I have to say you're not is a fruitcake I talk to God all the time but again not with my words but with my heart how many times we driving in the car when we're talking to God Not out loud with our hearts that's what he's hearing so what exactly are the people who are hearing thing that when they get there you've got me I I I don't know and I don't care. The gift of tongues in the Bible is a language and Paul states that undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world yet none of them is without meaning so if you have a language that no one knows the meaning of it's not a language you know so you cannot grasp ease of foreigner to me. And again Dean I have to say and I don't have a bias on this I'm just talking out of the scripture and I don't have a bias on this but I would say why would God why would God come in and say this or say to you and to me. Or are for me to go into assembly and I speak English and I'm going to go into an assembly of people that speak English and I'm going to start speaking German. Why would he do that I speak English and they understand English why would you go in the speak in a language that no one understood when you can speak in a language that they do understand. This that makes sense to you yeah. I really understand that. When they see. All things that you know he beat me 3 and they're kind of a validation they're making with that birth they well. Privately and my help or whatever like my own prayer cloth or whatever the you know somebody if somebody is What if somebody believes that they are sitting in their prayer closet and they're babbling in some language and they think God's listening to him I will tell you something God would not care what was coming out of their mouth and how important that be if a person did not have a tongue How important would that be if someone had as an example if someone had. A disease where the by they could not speak are they all of a sudden 2nd rate citizens Yeah yeah yeah so you see other what you've done is to make a big to do out of nothing because in the final analysis if I was sitting in my room whether I was speaking in English or babbling God isn't listening to what I'm saying anyway he's listening to my heart God has an ability to know what my heart is and where my heart is that's something that God has that we don't have so when I'm speaking to God I'm speaking heart language to him he's too smart to listen to what I'm saying because half the time what I'm saying and what you're really is going on inside so he's listening to our heart Mary talking about speaking mysteries what does that have to do with anything talking in the language of Christ Jesus is a mystery to the world. The fact that the Gentiles were going to be able to be saved the same way as the Jews was a mystery until it was revealed to mankind in God's timing Yeah so there's nothing to that the issue is we shouldn't be making a big deal out of that type of thing we're told tongues is a sign and this is in verse $22.00 for the Chapter 14 tongues is a sign not for believers it's not a sign for believer but firm believers Well what what happened on the day of Pentecost What were they doing well I mean if you want to know what something is you go back to where it started. And what was the death penalty was at prayer language or was it speaking the Word of God in a language that you did not ever learn but people understood what you were saying you know it. So when your good as an example of I'm going to define sin I'm going to have to go back to where it started in the Garden of Eden if I'm going to define what sin is which is what kicked off the sins of the entire world started the garden it well one committing adultery they want to know when they're committed with. It wasn't stealing there were a thing to steal what was it I stopped believing in God and I started believing Satan Jesus later on clarified that by saying the world's in his unbelief in me yeah so what is in that which is not of faith there is your best definition of sin that which is not of faith is sin how do I know that that's where it all started that's the root of it now the fruit of it can be adultery serving all that type of thing but the root of all sin is that which is not a faith Yeah so if you're going to go back to a definition of something you have to go back to its origin so you go back to the origin of tons which was a language as you see we use the word tongues the word is languages you know they spoke in other languages. And so the issue is you know it's all for a 1000 tongues the saying that surely didn't mean that they had a 1000 tongues wagging out there it's a fact that for a 1000 languages to sing my great Redeemer's premise. And so what we have done is to make that. Issue there are people that come and teach that if you don't speak in tongues you're not filled to the spirit that's nonsense Yeah. And it also or if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved Well they've Yes Robyn my salvation with that was I've never spoken in thugs never intend to it wasn't a gift given to me and it says that or do all people speak in tongues No Do all people prophesied No Do all people have the gift of teaching no. Well I didn't get that gift of being able to speak in a language that I had never learned during our lives beacon language I have learned . But the issue is that that was not my gift of God gave me a gift of teaching how ridiculous Would it be for me to be going around telling everybody of night shift all puffed out if you don't have the gift of teaching you're not saved or if you don't have the gift of teaching. Not filled with the spirit or if you don't have the gift of teaching you can't talk to God That's nonsense that's ridiculous he didn't give or buy the same gift so the issue is if you have a gift be quiet about it that's what Paul's trying to say be quiet about it and rejoice in your gift the quit trying to be a promoter of it yeah now again all I'm doing is this all I'm doing is reading out the Bible and again Jane you do not go to obscure passage to interpret the obvious you go to the obvious to interpret the obscure speaking mysteries is an obscure passage that there are many languages in the world but yet none I'm without meeting there's nothing obscure about that it's as obvious as the nose on your face Ok You know what your spiritual gift is I believe it Ok now you've got a woman that said she all of sudden could speak in tongues Have you ever gone to her and promoted your gift of teaching to her then why she promoting her gift to you you know why she tell narrow body what gifted she's supposed to God You're not going around town or by about the gift you have Yeah is the one getting at is that of God Well no no I don't think so either but I don't think so either they say what is going on I don't have a clue not of it's not the Bible's not of God there anything in the Bible about anything in regard to the languages except that it was a known language and it is a sign to the unbelieving Jews not to. Not for a believer but for an unbeliever Yeah Ok and I can hang my hat on that one yeah and I'm against that no I'm not against anything that's in the Bible. That can be interpreted in the Bible but I just think that when you read the passages in Corinthians that it spells out quite clearly and also I think about this one he said if I could speak of the tons of men and angels and yet don't have love. Another But a noisy gong in a clanging cymbal Now if the king in tongues is a sign of being filled with the spirit then how could you call someone a spirit filled noisy gong a clanging cymbal you know. So their shoe is that it is not it was not assigned to be sitting around bragging about how they was assigned to be used to the unbelieving world in the event that you're in an area that you cannot speak their language and they cannot speak yours that God would give you the gift to communicate in their language the gospel of Christ Jesus with a language that you had never learned before that's a miraculous sign there yeah nothing miraculous about the other at all yeah another thing Ok. You need help clear up a little bit of the. Earth that. Makes welfare and. Well I think Bob and. Sure to catch up with you guys next time you're out in the West Coast. They will afford to sin you over and Ok. If I. Classic Christianity radio is a listener funded program and because of your generous donations we're able to be on the air go to Bob George dot net to order a closer look at Bible studies a closer look Bible studies features 8 in-depth books that will take you through hundreds of Bible verses as the Holy Spirit guides in teaches you while deepening your understanding of the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ these Bible study books are excellent tools for individual or group study sessions perfect for small or large church groups Sunday school classes and at home Bible studies please visit Bob George the net for additional information on how you can join us financially and help support the radio ministry with your prayers and support we can continue to share the good news of Jesus Christ let's continue now with our classic Christianity radio program let's go to Mohammad in Dallas Texas. Welcome to the program you're on the air listen on k d k r. I know. When I was in Africa we were doing on a grown child to reach out with me the gospel of Jesus Christ. And they're all doing well. Putting the media by. Missionary. We started hitting out killing that meant that I would but during and they left me yeah without caring what was going to happen to me not because I'm in this country you don't know where because the prosecution should I. Should I kind of on through to the public oh should I keep quiet about it and forget about it because even my family what my dad got from. Well Mohammad I think in regard to what we communicate and what we don't communicate I think we have to leave to the instruction of the Lord in your own heart. There were certainly in the Bible testimonies of persecution. By the Apostle Paul he was beaten there was no man and all of those were testimonies as to how the enemies of the Gospel persecuted them you certainly have people that speak out in regard to the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis and other people in the world and I think that that so many times people don't understand that the Muslim religion was founded by Mohammad who basically was. His nickname as an example in some languages like it Russian was throats letter and that was what he was referred to as a throat splitter because that's how the ministry grew You either believe or die and so a lot of people don't know that they don't they don't realize that they were days they don't want to hear it because they want to be politically correct on everything but I think it's important to know those things. When I was in Greece the organization over there why when I am organization that used to they would hold a evangelistic campaigns there in Athens and up until upon end and different areas in Greece and every time they would do that. Again the members of the Greek Orthodox Church and on and go I'm not putting down any denomination I'm just saying in that particular case the of the members of the Greek Orthodox Church would come and unplugged their microphone and tear up their equipment and one guy got beaten almost to the ends of his life and almost beaten to death by them and so to me I think those things need to be communicated well why shouldn't people know that that kind of meanness and destruction takes place by people who call themselves religion religious people yet because even Reg know that continue killing sure but like with me. But nobody thinking about it right I don't get that before all that you have come to a point that if I keep quiet that dead people. Keep quiet when we could not know what happened I think I agree with you. Because I was very I don't care if I did right now if God had been I think I believe in something God in this country yes I mean we've got all over the world and preach the gospel. We have to cry but yes I don't like to tell the truth that the people down there have been killed because they don't know what they believe yes. Well I agree with you mom and I think if it was do realize that some people are motivated by fear but I don't think that fear comes from God God didn't give us a spirit of fear I do know that there are people to fear because they they are brutal and mean and certainly would think nothing of taking another person's life but the issue is that that's that's just the testimony of Christianity every one of the Apostles died martyr's death and. And I and them are mastering self was crucified and we're not greater than the masters so. Personally I would speak out all that I would let people know what's going on and try to get. Some people to to understand that this basically people who work in in Africa and in those locations and to see if you can get some of the news media help wanted the world needs to know what's going on by these kind of terrorist activities. I mean I don't remember I've been proud we have but it I mean it's you know. We are reaching out to me and my wife and what we what we cannot because I remember I think I may God bless you well thank we I have to cry. On the ground but I agree mom and then we'll certainly be doing that and you. You keep it us in mind and thanks for listening and you keep listening and call in any time Ok Ok God bless you too my friend Bye Bye Let's go to New Orleans Louisiana listening on the mail and the old Troy you're on the air I go about doing good for I think you have that question. Like we get together me and a couple guy from work and each night we have a. We each get a chance to bring from kind of people you know from the talk about a topic. Verse to me break it down and one night I spoke up on the. Prosperity graph. And I thought we would speak and I was speaking out against it you know that we do a good televangelist I mean I got I want you to be a minion Yeah you know if you know to me you know united see that if you can speak in tongues or not. And my thought it was with people on their own about how dangerous that got. And after that day one of the guys. It came and told me that I would. Speaking out against that because we had a guy in the study that that believed in it and in that we. He followed and he told me I was Rome for bringing that up and I should know I shouldn't speak out against that because it hurt people feel to them Oh I'm I was trying to do God's job I should be quiet about it and I got him. Out I was well a guy like that guy like that has no understanding at all. That would be like saying don't tell people that if they don't accept Christ are going to go to hell because of herds of feelings I think love would say I don't care whether it's their feelings or not I'm going to tell the truth because truth is what says I'm free not believing the lies that they're believing so when you're dealing with the prosperity gospel you've got the 6th chapter of 1st Timothy and that's all you really have to read to people it just talks about people of corrupt providing they've been robbed of the truth and who think that God and this was a means to financial gain and that's what the prosperity gospel is that God does is a means to financial gain and it goes ahead to say the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil and some people eager for money have wandered. The faith and pierce themselves with many grease so the prosperity gospel it says that anyone teaching that is a man a perverted mind and I quite frankly don't have very much interested in listening to anything else a person has to say who has been identified by God as a person of pervert fine so as far as I'm concerned I wouldn't listen to a lot of the oh yeah. You got the Bible back you up on that brother according to this guy you should have a Bible study because that's going to hurt people's feelings Yeah yeah you know that's a stupid liberal mindset that you see going on in the world today let's all negotiate and I say to people you know like a John Kerry if you're so good at negotiating how can you got a divorce Yeah yeah and I got to be pretty easy to negotiate that one you know so if you're that good of a negotiator Why did you get a divorce and I'm just and what I'm saying is all of this stuff comes down to the fact that when you have an enemy that wants to kill you and attack you you don't sit around and play cards with them and negotiate with them and that's just not going to happen and it's the same thing you don't sit around and say Well somebody's feelings are going to get hurt Well tough because if their feelings don't get hurt they may never come to know Christ as their lord and savior so I would rather be accurate than I would to be popular Oh. I'm glad that I could I don't read even. If it bothered me I don't it was rolled up late and I kind of I feel bad but I've been pouring and I've been praying and you know actually got to be about what's wrong with. Every thought I've got to go out there and speak out against the good you know we all we obviously got to give. It tell you to speak out against it so you know I'd rather do it God says I'm glad somebody My Bible says He said Ok let's go to Newport Beach California. Brad Shawn you're on the air thanks for taking my call You're sure welcome Sean really quick in the Gospel of John. Talking about John about where he was not that right but what's going to bear witness like and let's 1st. Well true right which light of everything man that come up into the world what does that mean that right like every man that comes into the world. Well I think John what you're talking about there is Christ Jesus is the only light so-called If you want to use that as an example of a lable to man and he is available to every man that was ever born on the face of the earth and so as far as as God is concerned he says No man comes to the Father unless he's are to Jesus unless he's led by the Father and the Scriptures say there's God's will that none should perish and all should Gundry Fenton's And so if that's God's will I have to assume that everybody that has ever lived on the face of the earth has had an opportunity in one way or another to believe in Christ Jesus in other words to be led to the light so he's a light to all men but not all men receiving massage. In 1st John one you see if we claim to be a fellowship with Him and yet walk in darkness there's only 2 ways you can walk in this world John one is in darkness lost or in the light saved so if we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet we walk in darkness in other words were lost but we're claiming to have fellowship with God we lie and do not live by the truth Ok but if we walk in the light as he is in the light that's Jesus we have fellowship with one another that you and Jesus and the blood of Jesus his son keeps on continually cleansing you of every sin imaginable so we're there's only 2 places that we can walk either in darkness lost or in the light saved. Ok thank you so much while it good to hear from you my friend. Thanks Schoen. Thank you so much for tuning in the classic Christianity with Bob George enjoyed today's program we truly hope that today's message has inspired you to walk a life of faith in the Lord and find more information online and Bob George that net There you'll also find available C.D.'s D.V.D.'s and Bible studies of bailable for purchase it's through your help the we're able to spread the Good Word of Jesus Christ until next time walk in faith be good to one another in praise the lord amen . Jesus. The preceding program is sponsored by Bob George ministries. This is Bob George and this is Amy George we are so grateful too good for the opportunity to be back on air Join us weekdays at 11 am to hear more about God's unconditional love that he's in Christ she says to him in weekdays at 11 am to classic Christianity with Bob George on Colorado's Christian station the mighty 670. Worldwide at 670 calle t.t. Dot com and all over Colorado in digital h.d. On a m 670 Kayleigh t t come a city Denver. You can now say Alexa play k.l. T.t. After you take one very easy step to get started click the Alexa banner on 670 k l t t dot com and follow our simple instructions then you can start saying I'll accept play k.l. T.t. . Just one more way for you to hear dependable truth surprising revelation on k l t t. Been made it onto the University of Southern California football team as a walk on nobody was more surprised than Ben I knew almost from the moment a shot out of the t.v. That I was there for a reason as a Christian bin wanted to share his faith in Jesus but when he held Bible studies no one showed up and someone actually tore up the bibles that been gave to his team and I was to follow solos right there he said about heart and soul and trying to find my purpose but one of the bins teammates a guy named Mario gave his life to Jesus after he read the Bible then gave it to prove to be just in the good time a few weeks later Mario God and I find out from a former teammate of mine who shared the story to me 4 years later God was so real in his bones and he was saving a lot of someone who was just about to pass away you may not see it now but God is working when you share your faith learn more and find peace with God dot net where the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this is the Crawford broadcasting company devoted to bringing you God and country. In. The. Sky can. Be. Back. To. Back. To. Greetings to the brightest 30 in the country Welcome to real science radio I'm Bob and you are Fred Williams is on assignment in our star listener Where was where was he listening from Up up and I don't know all right he was enjoying our list of not sold things while doing. Yardwork he wrote he describes the list as excellent and then he recommended a paper published in a peer reviewed journal the Intelligent Design movement's bio complexity the paper by a Dr Winston Ewart ph d. From Baylor University in computer engineering this paper appears to present a better understanding for what looks like Darwin's tree of life or the hierarchy of common descent the most stunning line in the paper is a hypothesis in just 7 words quote d.n.a. Is the product of a compiler. Now folks who've never program software will need to have that explained but these words d.n.a. Is the product of a compiler are stunning but we really have to start at the beginning and work up to that So what an honor for our asar to speak with the author of the paper Dr Winston you word with the Biologic Institute Dr you are welcome to real science radio it's great to be here well yes thank you I have so enjoyed your paper so thankful to our listener so this idea of Darwin's tree of life that's been a primary argument for the theory of evolution for a century and a half. Yes certainly I mean even going back to the origins. Darwin made the argument he has you know very nice weeks planes the natural grouping within groups that we're seeing in life he says that no other explanation has been attempted so his must be the right one and as researchers have dug into this especially as your paper points out in the realm of molecular biology but even elsewhere there have been. Challenges to the claim that there is this tree of life or you can look at ancestry in this nested hierarchy there are significant challenges to that I recall we did a show 10 years ago 2009 the cover of New Scientist over in Europe they said Darwin was wrong on the tree of life cutting down the tree of life there's been a lot of even evolutionary scientists who said the data doesn't really necessarily show common ancestry in that tree as we expected it would yeah so a lot of the stuff where you find even journalists are willing to question the career of life. Comes down to outside of the animal kingdom and particularly outside if you carry out bacteria for example and to a 1st approximation all life is bacteria don't smile at Tree of Life bird you don't follow Archy whatsoever and and young guy for example also category so there's definitely quite a lot of questioning of the tree of life at that broad level there's a. Strong still within a Darwinian camp an insistence on a tree of life when you look at you Cario and especially within animals so bacteria Ok there's tons of cars until gene transfer people been listening to this show for some time they likely will understand that concept where genes could flow from one single celled organism to another but way back in 2009 with that cover story a New Scientist I recall that evolution is Jerry coined I'm sure you've heard his name. He had he and I sparred on his blog about this at that time because he said it's all to do with bacteria overwhelmingly or single celled organisms. Even back then for example there was a u.c. Davis study they compared 2000 genes that are common to humans frog c. Scored c. Or chins fruit flies name a toad and in theory they should have been able to use the gene sequence to construct an evolutionary tree but the problem was that different genes they told contradictory stories examples like that of balance in the literature Yes Absolutely even within you karaoke animals there's a lot of data that doesn't fit the sort of nested hierarchy story that evolution like to tell you what they would argue is that you know if you average everything together it's still cold and I could story and that sort of thing but certainly if you look at the individual pieces yet not all the data is actually pointing the same direction so when we do look at the data whether it's anatomy or if we look at the genes the d.n.a. There does seem to be this nested hierarchy pattern in fact it's not questionable there's a pattern there that the evolutionists are saying and fact that intelligent design researchers are seeing there is a pattern so what you have proposed is an alternative model for understanding the pattern and then you go and test your model against the tree of life model and that's where the controversy hit because the research you did Winston the testing that you put your model through it was exhilarating reading the paper and we're going to link to this from our show summary at our asar dot org slash and you know what the tree a life rolls off the tongue more easily than the dependency graph of life but we'll link to this at our asar dot org. Slash Ewart and that's. Our t. So could you describe your model as compared to the Tree of Life common ancestry model. All right so the 1st thing in my model is to note the idea. That when you design something you don't design it from scratch in the computer world we have a joke we say that in order to be a top or engineer you need to be lazy the patient an arrogant. Idea behind laziness is that you should never write code to do something when you've already written that code to do something or someone else has already written that code to do something so you always try to reuse code that previously existed and what we do is we've group of these code into things called modules which contains a bunch of related code that does something it has a related functionality So for example you can find modules that download files off the Internet and you might use that no argue program because you want to download a file do something with it or it could spell check a document work. Functions and any number of things if you want to do something chances are someone has devised a module to do it and you can download that and put it into your program so this is true if you're an app developer for an i Phone or a Samsung Galaxy phone you don't have to do all the programming from scratch we got to go way back to the 19 eighty's and ninety's for me but I worked for McDonnell Douglas helicopter company in the simulation department for the Apache helicopters the Army's attack helicopter back then I wrote for p.c. Week so I have some familiarity although I haven't done these things in over 30 years but programming you take the work in I call them library. Is your paper it's all modules but you take the work the pieces that are already existing and you build those pieces and then you add the particulars to make your app versus another app Yes So yeah just with the term module versus library there's a few different terms they used in different environments and such so that's been unfortunate but Library and modules are the same concept these different languages used Ok yeah so the idea is that when God creates a particular species eak wraps a bunch of modules and combines them together exactly the same way we do when you create a software program Wow And so the idea is we're seeing similarities whether at the anatomical level or and the genetic level or whatever level you want to come up with. It's old really due to the fact that using some of the same modules. This if this insight is true it seems like it would explain so many peculiarities of the data something that we have enjoyed noticing over the years is that when they sequenced the genome of the elephant shrew this little rodent has a long snout the researchers were startled to find that it was closer to an elephant than to other shrews and so a tree model would not predict that because rodents and elephants would be on maybe the same quadrant of the tree but different branches but if the designer if God is creating these species and he loved what he did with the elephant and it's now and now he's creating a shrew but he wants to give us now also if he chooses the same software module will then we would see similarities in the d.n.a. Of these 2 disparate creatures Yes having them on I don't I have not looked particularly at the Elephant shrew to see whether it kind of fits the model thing exactly or not yeah but that's the basic idea Ok lots of people had the basic idea that life would have a different module shared so that's not really particularly unique in my paper so maybe in type of the other part of it that way but a lot of people had the generic idea the problem is reusing modules shouldn't produce something that looks like a nested hierarchy pattern it doesn't explain why we have groups in groups of why you know there aren't any reptile mammals or that kind of combinations of things why does light seem to hit a higher key as well as it does and that's not really just explained by looking at modules per se. It is explained if I look at the title of your paper the dependency graph of life if you have software modules where one is the pending on another module then you begin I think to have a workable model from which to test the data and ask Is that why we're seeing what appears to be these nested hierarchies Yes Just to reiterate the idea the idea is you cannot use any combination just any combination of modules you have to use them in a way that follows their dependencies and what will actually say is that one module depends on another so example if you think about if you've ever taken math classes if you take a calculus class that depends on say algebra right if you don't know algebra 1st you can have a really hard time in calculus. And so we might say that calculus depends on algebra. And you could say you know you can't have you know light in your house unless your house also has electricity and he you know you you know lights depend on electricity and you can come up with you know all kinds of different examples of these dependencies and we explicitly model them in software engineering where every module has a list of these or the other modules I depend on. So you get the example in your paper if there is an echo location module and it's Sony that that's one of the examples in your paper because this past month we did a series on the problems with the evolution of echolocation that was a really fun broadcast series but if there's an echo location module and then if there's a Marine module you can look at dolphins and whales and expect to see you can make some predictions based on the model on what we should find in the data. Right now the key thing I think is that insofar as the data fits a hierarchy that's because there are some modules that conform to standard taxonomic categories so for example all these different species of mammals they seem quite similar in many ways and I think that's because it's a mammal module that they all depend on but the key thing is that the mammal module in turn and depend on you carry a module. That is a self with as a nucleus right or you could say that so he have a mammal module and it depends on an animal module that means that everything that's in the end all module is automatically inherited or becomes part of the mal module and so that's why mammals in addition to being similar to each other are also similar in other ways to animals as a whole the fundamental insight that I really had here was that if you take the tree of life and you replace all the taxonomic categories with modules and your grace that descend relationship in the tree with a dependency relationship going the other direction then you can actually take any tree and there's an equivalent dependency graph. Right and so the thing with that is. If it can be of why it has a equipment a pen it's a graph that means all of the seemingly similarity relationships that seem to be pointing for a tree of life could also be explained I had a pendency But on top of that it depend if you graph can explain more because in a tree you know every species only descends from one other species ignoring some more exotic cases like hybrids but in a dependency graph every module can depend on other modules on multiple other modules so that means for example if you got bad yes they did and directly from something is similar to other animals like that but they can also depend on echolocation module which is also dependent on by don't and so while there have a whole bunch of different modules that are mostly different they could have bunches similarities in this one way because they're both using that echo location module that they have found looking at Dolphins and bad that not only is there a standing similarity in their pressed in gene for hearing but they have identified $200.00 different genes a number of which they're not even certain of their function where they have this unique similarity between bats and dolphins in hundreds of genes and so might that be a pointer to what you're talking about a module for echolocation may have functions and it's that are not immediately obvious to the evolutionary biologist Yeah so I think it's certainly true it does this similarity doesn't it very nicely with the module hypothesis that there's an echo location modularity and explains all the similarities Wow What's interesting is it actually another paper came out. Because one paper came out saying there's you know why signal of convergence because their mind it's convergent who's in that explains this a monkey's looking species and to someone who orders pont I mean there wasn't but if you look at the response was very interesting is their argument was that it's not above the background level of convergence that we're seeing everywhere. Well that's a great point and then Paul Nelson for many years now he's been really getting the word out about orphan genes where you could sequence 3 species of ants and find that 5 percent of their genes are totally unrelated to one another so that they're orphans they have no apparent family that they're related to get they're performing the same basic functions and that suggest that there's a virtually infinite number of ways to program these biological functions they could be done in so many different ways yet if dolphins and bats are getting the same genetic programming in $200.00 different genes how in the world could natural selection select for an amino acid sequence it could only select the organism the reproducing organism natural selection what look down and say Ok I prefer this amino acid sequence because I did it over here with bats are going to do it here with dolphins It seems that they have no mechanism to explain similarities what they call convergence on far distant branches of the tree of life they try to invoke emergent evolution which I think is a little bit of. Ad hoc explanation particularly if they then want to turn around and claim that most of the changes in d.n.a. Are just random usual. So as you have proposed this model you didn't just propose. Goes a story and leave it there you then submitted your model to a test and as I am a talk show host I pastor Denver Bible church I'm not a scientist I'm not a mathematician but from the outside looking in Dr Ewart it really looked like a very well designed test you put it to you got synthetic data like you took data from actual programming javascript programs then you took data from an evolution simulator so something that in software simulates makes believe something's evolving into something else and then you took actual biological data from these gene banks that are published on the Internet and you tested these Mathematically this is hard to explain without your fabulous charts over the radio but I would love to give the audience a sense of how your dependency graph of life did as compared to a Darwinian tree of life in explaining the data this was fascinating for me when I looked through each of these genetic data banks off of the Internet and saw how your model compared to the Darwinian tree of life and could you describe the results well Ok so what I can compute is a large base factor and so this isn't it so one bit weak mean that my model was the way to get it as the Tree of Life Model Ok Ok 2 bit. Is 4 times. 3 bit is 8 times as good. 66 that's the number right where it's commonly ticks is sometimes decisive because that's about 100 times as good Ok And it is a 1000 times as good when a bit 1000000 times is good so that gives you an idea of how big how these numbers work. My smallest database which has the least they will result from my model as 10000 bits. So this brings us to a number that is almost in comprehensible when you want to compare Darwin's tree of life versus the dependency graph and ask this software ask it which better fits the data the tree of life or the dependency graph of life and when you say that this is a logarithmic result it's 10000 bits and some of the results are a lot higher than that. This isn't a 1000 times more likely to favor your model it's not a 1000000 times more likely I don't know how to say the number of how much more likely it is it's 10 to the 3000 times more likely the data to be produced by the dependency graph then the tree model that sounds conclusive Dr you are. Well Ok being a scientist I have to qualify that. A lot of talk show hosts I don't have to but you know go ahead go right ahead like you said you had to make assumptions of course obviously there's a lot of assumptions into it so I have to assume it's a pretty simple process of evolution here I'm assuming like you can have the same gene family pop up in different places I'm assuming there's no war zone gene transfer I'm assuming things like that and so for that reason some people say oh you didn't model the tree of life well enough and that's way it turned out that way I find the tree of life it's a bit difficult to model it just because you can throw all kinds of excuses for why the data doesn't fit the theory of I think it actually right and so no matter how I model it you can always complain I didn't model it the right way and to some degree I hope that in future work we can further explore some of those possibilities your I'm somewhat saying this is the 1st step towards evaluating this and this is the result. You have as a 1st approximation you're not only comparing your model against the Darwinian tree of life model but you're also comparing both of those models against the no model no and you l.o.l. As though there were no relationship. And then you also ran this analysis with the synthetic data with software programs and with an evolution simulator software output and the results there were also very significant yet now they're both smaller than the biological data so they're not as big not 10000 bits necessarily they're more like 800 bits but recalling you know that 20 bits was a 1000000 times better that's still pretty strong right again and it shows yes software program does look like a dependency graph in a tree and the evolutionary simulation out what does like like a tree in on a dependency crap so that shows at least my method works at least somewhat if we can correctly differentiate those cases right so in other words if you take your analysis and you throw into it a bunch of software programming it's going to spit out that this software code this isn't the result of an ancestral tree this is a result of dependency modules and then if you throw into it the. Computer evolution simulation then it's going to say well this is the result of an ancestral tree because in fact that's what that software is designed to give you so this is a way of testing the model conceptually and so it's passing these tests Yeah and I think the key point here is exactly the same program running to analyze the data Garlits of which dataset I'm going into it I'm not running a different program when I'm analyzing javascript programs and the evolutionary simulation in the biological I'm running the exact same code in all cases to analyze it and it gives me as a result so the challenge is I know that your paper published in bio complexity I know that it's been challenged Has anyone submitted a paper. The journal for peer review and to actually publish a rebuttal. I'm not aware of anyone who's attempted to actually publish area bottom Ok I've seen people post on comment threads in forums and blogs and such and and I kind of think I acknowledge in the paper that it is sort of her staff and there's a lot more work to be done on the hypothesis right I think most people are just saying I'm going to those readers like give and then they feel they can ignore it because you know there are still questions that need to resolved about it I think that's the current status people are taking with it we hear real science radio we've been on the air for since 19017000 programs and like I said I'm also a pastor so whereas some people in the Intelligent Design movement some are hesitant even to speak of a designer others will speak of a designer and we speak of the Creator the God of the Judeo Christian scriptures you mention God earlier So Dr you are what we're saying here with your paper what you're saying is that there appears to be evidence that it needs further research but there appears to be evidence that when God created it in the plant kingdom the animal kingdom so on he had software modules that he used and he selected there were dependency relationships between them and he built the genetic codes of each of these different kinds of creatures the way a programmer would build their app or their program a very similar methodology yet after some pretty near and that's how I look at it I assume God must also be a software engineer because the only thing that makes them and so I'm looking at how he would design life from that perspective. And living cell it's sort of like the hardware and the software it's all right there in the 1st. The more we learn about the sound of d.n.a. The more it's bike it is software system just way better than the ones we've come up with so then to get to the hypothesis you state it in 7 words. Close to show what you said d.n.a. Is the product of a compiler when I read that I was exhilarated. Hey we're running out of time in this broadcast so go to our website to catch the rest of this program Real science Radio dot com. Talking about. The preceding program is sponsored by Bob and yard live you're tuned to am 670 calle t t Commerce City Denver k o t t h d and streaming worldwide at 670 k l t t v dot com. We expose the liberals in the conservative you're invited to tune in for Biblical Christian news talk on Bob in your weekday afternoons at 3 right here on am 67 the t.t.d. Colorado's Christian station. This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you John 1512. Calle t.t. And k. O. T. T. H. D. Thomas it is going. To am 6 of leaving work at 670 calle t.t. God comes in no effort at 95. God is still on the phone for changes that. Were at the end of the work week it is Friday October the 11th 2019 this was passed to Larry so good to be with you we're going to continue airing an interview. I did with Pastor Carl gallops you know Currall is an amazing man I have done interviews with him by phone I had never met him until this summer it was actually August the 3rd to be exact I was speaking out a conference in Branson Missouri we had some wonderful fellowship together he used to be in law enforcement I used to be in law enforcement we have several other things in common Carl is one of our guest speakers at our east coast prophecy conference and Gettysburg Pennsylvania are told of the 24th through the 26th that's Thursday through Saturday Saturday morning October the 26th we will have a prayer meeting we need to have a session of intercession for our country we are in great peril I really mean that our only hope is in the power of God please please come and pray with us please call our toll free number to register for our conference 180-652-1144 let's pick up on our interview with Pastor Carl gallops. Our previous program we were talking to Carl about his new book Gods of the final Kingdom Hello Karl and thanks for being back with us hello brother Larry thank you know with my honor to be back with you and your amazing audience God bless you well let's get to where Hebrews 13 verse 2 It speaks about showing hospitality to strangers some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it now what about your angelic encounter you still draw strength from this visitation as you tell it in the book The stranger on the elevator who knows a lot about something that you had kept private the nurses insisted that no one was with you on the elevator but you talked to this dignified gentleman who was well dressed tell us about that that amazing encounter and how it all tied together I mean you bring stuff in.
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