And for speaking out on the climate crisis and its public health effects he has since filed for whistleblower status with the Justice Department's Office of Special Counsel and has just received the Joe Callaway award for civic courage Welcome to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour Dr George Bloomer thank you such a dear Welcome Mr Cooper and graduations on your. Word for super courage to croon Lee deserve it I think both things were get started please explain what does an epidemiologist do I don't think there's enough of them in this country and they're desperately needed what does an epidemiologist do and what different areas health and safety have they been working on before we get into your the 2 age care Well let me I'll just something that that is the patterns of disease and causes of diseases covering you know almost an infinite amount of exposures and help outcomes we look for that go between a particular exposure so bad air quality 'd and look for what that might do just to a certain part of the population as a whole essentially you know dive data looking for cause illness and death and you know my expertise covers a wide range of environmental exposures a chiclet bad water quality air quality extreme weather events and the like and try to build a case for why certain exposures are harmful to people so this is give a specific example of your own experience epidemiologists such as yourself make connections they make causal connections they make all kinds of relationships that make us understand what's going on and for example if a new disease comes up and it's infectious epidemiologists will try to find where it came from the causes to try to find who's most vulnerable where. The vulnerability is and maybe find situations where people are not as vulnerable is so absolutely critical in a highly technological society and they're just only a few 1000 epidemiologist bringing in the United States so let's get to your area the Centers for Disease Control arguably is the single most important agency in the federal government because if you dealing with global pandemics viral pandemics bacteria and Democrats and the such you're doing with potentially tens of millions of fatalities and hundreds of millions of 2nd misses and yet its budget is about 7 and a half $1000000000.00 which is half of what the Pentagon spends on the Bullis stick missile defense program that has never worked since Reagan opened it with great fanfare they're now spending about $14000000000.00 a year ready to cut Rogers No you had an 18 person staff inside the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta Georgia I believe the budget was about $10000000.00 and you were supposed to be looking into the connection between global public health and climate disruptions. Tornadoes destruction of how to touch droughts widespread fires hurricanes and for example if you change the habitats the malarial carrying mosquitoes will spread malaria beyond this present regions now that's an example of how epidemiology works you're working away at this and then the Trump regime opens its doors in January 2017 so explain to our listeners what happened well going to be happy do before I begin though it's important that I make it clear that you know what I'm presenting to you today is my own statement doesn't represent the federal government or the agency in which work these are my own opinions and my own statements and that I'm sitting here talking with you while I am on vacation leave so that I'm not using government time or resources to do so just to make clear to everybody that this is on my own so yeah the election happened in the fall of 2016 and a few weeks later I got called into the director's office of the director for the Center National Center for Environmental networking and told me that you know we've got a problem I had been working on a large scientific meeting a 3 day meeting that was going to be held since he had course in Atlanta called the climate health summit was a science meeting for 3 days and it was intended to raise awareness both within c.d.c. And the broader public health community that hey there are folks working on climate change and health were actually kind of an obscure part of public health but because recent statements by the World Health Organization director general market chanting the climate change is the single greatest threat to public health in the 21st century since the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change releases 2014 records did and quickly the humans are changing the earth's climate system and so on that we want to get public help who are you know have their traditional bunkers that they work in that there is groundbreaking work going on climate change and help we had organize meeting again with. A blind eye to politics which was rather naive considering what had been going on in the country and in my infinite wisdom I wanted to get high level speakers for our meeting and called on Al Gore if he would like to be our keynote speaker I thought he's a great advocate for climate change and apparently that was a mistake because the director said you know you have this meeting planned for February just 3 weeks after the inauguration and he said you have cancer made and I was blown away and we've spent the past 67 months working on this thing we've got a full agenda we've got invitees with don't pay for money's out the door why we can't meetings that the optics are good and I said do you think the optics would be good if you cancel the meeting and the news press got a hold of this this kind of sounds like scientific censorship and we have a scientific integrity policy that prohibits us from doing this and they said the optics aren't good I want you to send out a letter cancellation and I said not going to do that I'm not sending out a letter with my name on it the line my scientific belief that this is an important topic and they were surprised that I would be so up and then but I said no this is my professional credibility here if you want to cancel the meeting will you're my boss you can get the meeting but I'm not doing it and so they sent out a press release shortly after that meeting was canceled and I just steeled myself for some difficult times and this was very technical agenda here it wasn't just a celebrity speaker who had books on the subject these were really people who sunk 30000 to the nuance and we had this will probably have the best scientists who we did was we solicited abstracts or short blurbs about what they'd like to see the research to speak on we had the panels select the appropriate speakers we had numerous sessions on very specific topic changes in the geology and water borne diseases and you know very specific technical topics for public health that we organized in 2 sessions of several speakers and we were aiming to have the biggest and best meeting of this type of today and I think we had we had pulled together and. Asked meeting with all kinds of partners Russian organization and it was open to the press right yes so I always thought the c.d.c. Was about as impervious to partisan political intrusion as a federal agency I mean in the past Republican and Democrat administrations would not compete to manipulate politically what the c.d.c. Does it didn't fund it adequately but it was considered an agency of professional independence and so I was pretty astonished even with my minimal regard for the Trump people that they began moving in now how did they move in the day a point a new director who was taking orders did they put people at secondary levels under the new Director Read just astonishing that an agency that is full of Ph D.'s and M.D.'s et cetera suddenly became a political football for Donald Trump who has called Climate Disruption quote a Chinese hoax and quote So how did this happen and it came down on you like a hammer We'll talk about that in a moment yeah you know in my 17 years at the agency I held the the exact same view that this was a science driven agency done so for the protection of people's health and that politics had nothing to do with it and I had operated by program and the strategies that would employ looting unfortunately in fighting Al Gore in a political environment you know it's a wonderful organization with incredibly passionate and driven scientists that are so hungry for their mission that you know we spend inordinate amount hours working on the work that we do we just have enormous pride in and I have no direct knowledge of how this happened the individual that pricey The senator after that asked me to cancel the meeting was put in place during the Obama administration I think at that time we had a director that was on his way out we knew that but I I don't know who made the decision or the most frightening. Thing actually is that somebody would make a decision like this and then to supporting the potential blowback for the administration and that to me is frightening because it's the most insidious form of power and when you can get people to do things for you without even asking them that I think is the most frightening thing that people will act on your behalf in ways that they normally wouldn't merely out of fear of what you might do so you know I suspect that's the case and I It frightens me that we would go down that that well one of the ways they kept you down was to reorganize which is a typical bureaucratic technique so what they took your 18 person climate in the health program and subsumed under a larger program dedicated to the problems of asthma. And so it was fair to say that your program wall technically not abolished it was degraded and diluted and then they pushed you out for bed you even talk to your 18 member staff and I understand that if you want to come back to where you worked for a visit you had to get permission and you were in a state of limbo suspended but not fired Could you describe. In addition I was escorted by armed guards when I needed to get some books out of my office and I had an armed escort they asked me to come at 11 am which height of the day when everybody's around intending to humiliate me and March me through our large 10 story office building with a large armed guard behind me that even followed me to the bathroom everything but shackles and irons Brecht and and Robin might 17 years at the c.d.c. I have never been folk into sideways I've never been reprimanded in any way I've received outstanding performance reviews and promotions that belied any attempt at making my character unsavory so they did a number of things to the climate health program which is appropriated. In a discrete line item in the budget which means Congress appropriated $10000000.00 for climate health program at c.d.c. Since it's a direct line it cannot be by law used in any other way and I as a manager in charge of that appropriation I'm responsible for making sure that the public's money is managed in the proper way and that I'm a good steward of the public's money and if Congress says work on climate and health I cannot decide that this needs to be worked on for as a prevention and managed so what they did was they took the climate health program that was standalone and the other program standalone along with a number of other programs and the blended them together and my program got merged with that and I was made the acting branch chief of the program and immediately my . Superiors had asked me to dismantle the team that I had built in climate change which is a highly unique team with unique set of expertise from climatology to geographic information systems and a team that I had built that its sole purpose was to work on this unique set of challenges and they wanted me to move those 'd individuals into other teams and the as a program I said well you can't do that because they're going to be supervising your supervisor people who are working on different lines and how are we going to get around that fact that you can merge the personnel expenditure of their time between different programs and there was a command of one of my managers above me refused to answer that question but she had her name is Laura Johnson she had 2 contractors from Pricewaterhouse Coopers which I found highly unusual and odd and I had never seen this before work with me on an organizational plan for this new branch and encouraged me to accept this new organizational plan that would essentially blend the money and I kept telling the contractors you can't do this they're like well voices you can and I said well you can't I've taken appropriations classes I have to and why isn't more in this meeting will she couldn't come and this went on for several weeks and I refused to see this unless we could address this topic of the appropriations which I am responsible for so I could get in trouble if I allowed this to happen because I know that it's illegal and I said Lori needs to tell me what the workaround is for this mixing of the money because I don't see how we could happen and I'm not happy with this and as we went back and forth back and forth never with a response from Lori about the appropriateness of this I was called into a meeting with a senior managers in the center and it was quite odd because you know got a call up to this director's office one day and I sat down and one of the deputy director for the center Donna canoes and said We have some troubling allegations against you and I was like what what are you talking about and she said did you author a book. 20 think and I said well yeah I authored a textbook on Climate Change help and she says we have no records in the ethics approval office because this was an activity that on my own and I got a horrible to do it and since I had to buy the let's even see at the top that's what much is what we have no evidence that he actually receive that except report Well I did I have a form in my office let me go get it's like no you need to hand me your phone your badge and your keys and we're going to you need to leave campus now do you mean you're up to this is listeners the kind of top down Inquisition that they impose on people of conscience and competence in state bureaucracies federal state local and corporate bureaucracy the larger point that Dr libbers making is that he refused to spend money contrary to what was authorized for his program by the u.s. Congress he refused to spend money because if you spend money in an authorized way that is a violation of the anti deficiency Act which for scribes a felony as a punishment not to take an even bigger arc what Donald Trump was doing was doing this throughout referred to regulatory agencies moving money around for purposes that wasn't authorized such as moving money from the Defense Department for schools and other social services for the children of military families to build his so-called wall on the Mexican border that's a crime that's not just an impeachable offense it's a crime under the anti deficiency law and the other web you were caught up with we're talking where Dr Georgie Liber who was the head of the climate Health Program at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta the other aspect of this is he is 18 in n. a Betting a tremendous threat to our national security which is climate disruption it's already blowing apart communities and you see it on t.v. News. Lose and so it's not just that he's stopping you from trying to head it off in your particular way and stopping others from trying to minimize or mitigate these huge storms and tornadoes and droughts cetera short term and long term he's actually making it worse by unleashing coal burning pollution and scrapping control standards on greenhouse gases go boil gas go cold cold cold clean beautiful coal so he's a need in an embedding a massive assault from an abuse nature against the health and safety and property values of our country and actually make it worse that should be an n.p. Chewable offense that Congress should pay attention to in a way we're you know I mean you're sitting outside your workplace outside the Centers for Disease Control you've given the media interviews you're very good about communicating with the media are they trying to stop you from doing that the suspended your pay you know fortunately they had certain the charges in October of last year at 18 and with the help of lawyers from an organization called peer a look at boys from our responsibility we were able to have those charges completely removed they had accused me of all kinds of fabricated and just I mean so poorly done I mean they I'm also a professor at Emory University and I teach a class there regularly on climate and help and they had accused me of having my subordinates teach classes for me and which I didn't and they said I was having them teach classes that I never even taught they never bothered to check the class schedule to see if that course even existed and they said you know you had to me teach a class of the kind of a talk to class that somebody else and numbers of just anonymous accusations of. Something that I was able to you know concretely show evidence of that wasn't even true it was just remarkably poorly done which I maybe I think I'm grateful for the the incompetence of the staff at the center they were not able to put together a credible set of charges maybe it was done in order to help me I'm hoping that in the books of the inside the decent solidarity in this talk about trumped up charges a yes it was and they removed all of them so then they suspended you for 120 days to prevent you from speaking to the media they prevented me from speaking to the media going back before they remove me from my position that's goes back right after the Al Gore debacle they cut off all my media travel access and that drug on for about a year and plus and then after my obstinance with not doing their dirty work with the appropriations money that's when I was removed from campus and since then that was March 18th I have been moved to different assignments around c.d.c. In assignment that are unrelated to frankly thing that I have expertise and and I've been bounced around to them on my 4th assignment and I'm still working and I'm prohibited from coming to the campus in which I'm assigned to I work from home 100 percent of the time I still aided and I review now scientific manuscripts on laboratory analysis of environmental exposure something which I am profoundly unqualified to do so part of the clearance chain or laboratory manuscripts listeners should know that one of the 1st things Donald Trump did was order the banning of the use of the term climate change not only to Centers for Disease Control but at the Environmental Protection Agency other agencies and this is like right out of the Kremlin and Stalinist Russia and the 2nd thing they didn't like you appearing with Matt Damon in a show called Years of Living Dangerously Well that was during the Obama years and actually got a good bit of support for that I think there perhaps with the current crop of managers at the center don't lie. The attention this topic is getting and you know it is our our little unit was one of the most productive in the center and was also the one that they felt gave them the most vulnerability politically and so anything they could do to and they said to me you need to lay low take a low profile and I saw this as a tremendous opportunity to work to raise our profile and I refused to do so we were in discussions with the National Geographic Channel Mars series which is a very successful show there for me to be a regular contributor to and I received an e-mail saying George will never be on that show capitals Bobet underlined and they did not want me to seek media attention and part of my job is to raise awareness on this issue it's critically important that we take every opportunity can to let the public know that this is a real and credible threat to you now in your communities and you should be worried before to know you're being represented pro bono by this wonderful nonprofit group in Washington in Eugene Oregon called peer which started out to protect the scientific integrity of foresters a new u.s. Forest Service who oppose clear cutting on behalf of companies like wire hoser and were retaliated against So you're in good hands you have filed through them a whistleblower retaliation complaint with the Office of Special Counsel which is in the Justice Department seeking an investigation and defense of your rights what are you seeing in terms of your 18 colleagues are they distancing themselves are the silently supporting you how's the personal impact on your well person back is tremendous but it be much worse without the folks at Pir especially Kevin Bell one of the most competent and dedicated lawyers that I've ever encountered and they work tirelessly on this issue and they they remind me of my staff who took this issue climate change to heart and made it their life's mission their life's work these people are driven to work on the topic because. They want to contribute and of the 18 step several have left you know we're a group that has different skill sets project managers and cetera communicators and so on and so forth but the heart of the scientific knowledge base at that group is all gone I myself you know I didn't lead author for the Intergovernmental Panel climate change I've written the textbook on this issue I've been convening lead author for the 3rd and 4th u.s. National climate assessment on and on and what's left in the program unfortunately is not much expertise and that is really what's lost is the core knowledge base that we need in order to move this forward we're left with individuals not much experience or credentials on this and yes I do keep in contact with some of them but frankly it is a culture of fear right now and many are so 'd they have told me George I support you I can provide evidence that would exonerate you on this charge and doubted that I cannot do so because I hear that I will be retaliated against They have been told directly by the new person who took over from the Josephine that we like that if they speak to the press which is a we have a 1st Amendment right to be able to do so want to own time and I've been advised of that by c.d.c. General counsel on numerous occasions that you will get in trouble if you speak to the press and if you do get contacted by the press you need to report it to me immediately that's the typical type of intimidation factors that go along with this and so we have a group of young smart and scared individuals Well George you know some listeners baby wondering how can these 200 employees over you do such things to you what recourse do you have against them personally what lawsuits could be filed against them personally all the way up to the White House level are they all immune I wish I had Kevin here to help me with that question because I really don't know the answer to that you know we're focused on c.d.c. Restoring the program as it was intended by Congress to do having it in hands of managers that are good. It's of the public money in order to run this program to care about this topic there are cities that would love to have this program and see of course but do you have a patron or $2.00 in Congress when there was a whistleblower Ernie Prince your old in the Pentagon on the c. 5 a air cargo plane and he showed that the plane had a tendency to lose a wing now and then he was really pounced on in the Pentagon and he went to Senator Proxmire William Proxmire from Wisconsin who became one of his defenders and had hearings on the subject do you have any backers by name in the House and Senate and if not why not well we do actually just about a half an hour ago recorded a video for social media for Senator Bernie Sanders and you of course know that his stance on this topic is very strong and they've been supportive on the House side there been a number of efforts to support this Congress on the floor and Underwood from Michigan has proposed legislation to have the clinic program restored as an individual unit and Congresswoman Shalala as well as expressed tremendous support for this this issue and is working I believe with appropriations on what can be done about this I might add congresswoman Shalit was a former secretary of Health and Human Services in the Clinton administration in a friend for Congress after being president of the major university in Florida why don't you try Senator Edward Markey to back. Again yes I believe the legislative affairs folks at Pir and another whistleblower group called the Government Accountability Project are working with Marty as well as a few others Senator Whitehouse I believe will listen listeners this is not just about Dr George Lugar let me read you a passage in the joy Callaway award for civic courage about Dr lube quote his unremitting position on behalf of scientific method integrity in expertise presently under attack. As never before in history is an unwavering beacon for other federal government climate scientists suffering similar retaliate using his many splendored approach and communication skills through academic publications and in popular media Dr Looper pledged he will not go away and quote tenaciously responding to intensifying climate chaos and quote I have a little point to make to any trunk voters who are listening to this program I know that you love Donald Trump in fact you're you may be part of many trump voters who say when they're asked the following people say Trump is crazy but what he's saying is what I'm thinking this that mean I'm crazy Well let me tell you we'll leave that judgment to yourself Trump voters but what Dr Lugar wants to make sure is that you don't get an infectious disease and infect others because you're under health and safety protection. That's what he's looking for it doesn't matter whether you're Republican Democrat conservative liberal you better pay attention to smash Roos who are breaking up the Centers for Disease Control politicized and I'm favoring the big corporations who don't want certain things done in stifling people like George Lugar who relentlessly we're determined to take their conscious to work so they can help save your lives or anticipate in prevent global pandemics and epidemics David and Steve jump in here I'm confused about the hierarchy over at the c.d.c. Who are you taking orders from in terms of their education what kind of degrees to these people have who are giving you these orders these doctors are these Ph D.'s Yeah well the senator has a Ph D.'s industrial Hi Janice But the I believe the you know the real direction of whether you know the meeting should be canceled was not this is a director that is frequently on travel unlike I think this is my 5th Senator Rector Senator Rector spends a tremendous amount of time out of town and is remarkably absent for much of his tenure here and therefore the shop is run by folks without Ph D.'s He's a policy people and that's a trend that I've noticed at c.d.c. Over my 17 years and we've always you know present fact that science directs policy right that they can see how that's changed now policy director science in very prescriptive ways and so the policy people stepped in and had their wisdom about how to manage the trumpet ministration And and this is where we're at I think that a lot of these efforts are just done without care you know managing the public's money or being good stewards or being conscious as to our scientific integrity policy which should drive all of our efforts the folks that were trying to directly get me to move the money around don't have bad degrees that I'm a. Where of their budget people and managers of non-science we have 2 tracks in science management and a management side you know regardless I would maintain that we should you know play by the rules and do it the way we was intended and let the science lead the way I don't understand why doctors allow themselves to be ordered around by their inferiors and seems to happen in the house care debate is just abdicating the responsibility for that frankly to just be clear you said the person who told you the optics would be bad was not a trump political point t. Just someone feeling the pressure either directly or indirectly that this would be a bad idea to do with the new regime is that correct that's my understanding so he had started during the Obama years and I don't have any knowledge this was could have been right around the time that the transition teams the Ted crew or something they call it where the people come to the agency immediately and I had heard from another source through a Union of Concerned Scientists anonymous survey that a senior manager at c.d.c. Had said you know there were 5 key areas that the trumpet ministration wanted to be targeted during this administration it would be anything under the Affordable Care Act for control gun violence abortion rights and climate change these are the topics that there existed and now I don't know if this advance team had already made these wishes known to my leadership but you know was often media called in they going to cancel a meeting that we spent a good bit of time with already spent the money and a good bit of personal time to get this going it was a solid conference and include us I said the optics are terrible I can't believe in eating and certainly of course the Washington Post ran a story critical of c.d.c. On can't clean eating is this censorship and it was very odd that they would make that because their argument for laying low certainly didn't work as. Really honestly write a story about a science meeting at c.d.c. About climate change no one would write a national level media story about the climate meeting at c.d.c. But now they did write about it because it was canceled let me ask you this Would you return to your position with a change of administrations that wanted to reinstate your program absolutely I decided I got my Ph d. Right as 911 happened and sitting there watching those images I actually turned down an offer at Stanford and decided to pursue a life of public service I made it my goal to provide a service to this country and I felt obliged to do it at that sitting there watching you know those towers come down and 2 weeks later I applied the c.d.c. And got a postdoc and have dedicated my life to doing that and I'm not giving up now and I don't these people come and go I mean I've I've watched you know Senator actors come and go and c.d.c. Directors and my men just come and go but the people who do the science to do the work on the ground they stay and they're dedicated and we've gotten used to seeing these people come and go and you know and and I've maintained my will I also teach them or mention and they have that have wanted me to come over there and I said I'm in this fight and I am going to make sure this comes out well because if people like me walk away and who's left to care I was the pressure been on you professionally and personally. Incredible sense of isolation many of my colleagues at the government centrally goes to me now that's counterbalanced by a tremendous amount of support from the folks of the Callaway award you have your foundation from news reporting and you know colleagues around the world I received a stack the other day around 20 postcards that was part of a letter writing campaign encouraging me to keep a bike light and that really helps keep me going but my colleagues at c.d.c. Are afraid and many of them have this. Appeared and I think you know I I tell myself that it's a measure of somebody character and how they respond in moments like this and the folks who would slink away and ignore it well that's the measure of their character and for those who stand up and fight and support me well then you know and I know a little bit more about we're talking with Dr Georgie Lugar who was formerly the head of the critically important climate health program as a epidemiology just to Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta Georgia and a professor at Johns Emory University if you were in charge of climate disruption policy what would you do in terms of the federal government what kind of resources what priorities beyond your own program at the c.d.c. Well the display at that because that was a question the Hillary campaign asked me 4 months before the election and they reached out to me again the personally e-mail and all that and we spent the time coming up with a because we've got a you know $10000000.00 might sound like a lot of money but in a federal program it's really kind of a pilot program you mentioned you know the difference between the d.o.d. Budget and c.d.c. But this to me for c.d.c. Programs is quite small but what we have developed is a program that was directed right at on the ground public health this is local city and state public health and to deliver to them all the tools and intelligence that they needed in order to identify which threats would be relevant in their area because frankly the threats of climate change in Florida are going to be dramatically different from those and make organs and a whole different set of issues wildfires versus Ito's etc So we had a tailor made program called the brace program build resilience against climate effects that would work with you know these high resolution type efforts at getting help to the most vulnerable in our state and our community and in our country and our plan with the what I described the Hillary campaign was that we would scale up this program and. It too although we currently work with 16 states in 2 cities we bring it to all 50 states and territories to tribal governments and to large cities around the country and then we would also along with c.d.c. That we would need to bring money to n.i. To fund regional centers of excellence the e.p.a. Would need some funding to help support the environmental monitoring aspect of our program that was so critical that no one would be required to dedicate some resources to giving us the high resolution climate models that we would need to project with these risks are too detailed a you know intergovernmental program that had been in the works because I had spent time working with my colleagues around the government in order to kind of make those connections where is this information how can we get the resources that we need to attack this on a grand scale but we have done it in a way that would be scalable and so for the last 7 years had been you know testing the proof of concept and we're confident that we could scale it up the 1st thing in the world actually national level adaptation program for climate health so successful that the governments of England Public Health England the government of Austria Peru and Chile and Canada as well had adopted our framework as the gold standard for preparing public health for climate change and what would you have Congress do in terms of informing the public what kind of hearings you think they're not having They should have and in that context how do you expand the number of epidemiologists Well you have to train the epidemiologist and that was what the shame was is that you know I had trained Qadri a young professionals who were highly skilled in order to have the skill set and very very unique it's not like you just hire somebody to go to you know a job site you find to be the skills you have to train them you have to you know nurture them they've all disappear so we have to start all over again the men that we've lost you know I'm a bit naive it's the workings of Congress but the fact that our nation of the world's leading public health agency is stepping away from its principal sides of integrity it's not just troubling for climate change. But if you think about it the the integrity the the the respect with a lot of the of a check c.d.c. Is all that it has if the public can't trust that this is the best science of an agency like that and we always learn the c.d.c. That that what you do reflects upon the the integrity of this agency and that's essentially all we have to protect it with your life and you know listeners should realize that with climatologists epidemiologist making the connection between the burning no oil gas and coal and all kinds of diseases and property damage and affecting flora and fauna points the way to shifting our economy toward renewable energy like solar energy wind energy passive solar solar voltaic maybe even geothermal and in that sense reducing the greenhouse gases and reducing the causal effects of increasing climate disruption So you see that's the importance of the kind of work that Dr Lugar and his colleagues are doing and to literally try to destroy it is a crime against humanity when you try to destroy someone let's say who's trying to find a cure for malaria that's to consider a crime against humanity so when whenever you evaluate what we should expect the presidents of the United States it's important to crank in these kinds of functions that are not going to be advanced by Exxon Mobil or Peabody Coal they're going to be advanced by public servants such as Dr George Lugar before we end any more Congress or questions and Stephen David Dr louvered this is a scientific question what do you think the biggest threat is as a result of this climate crisis Well you know we've always said at the pilot program that the effects of climate change or play specific and have dependent and that's kind of scientific way of saying gosh it all they have the biggest threat in my opinion ironically. This is the biggest threat overall long term is the threat that increased carbon dioxide has on the acidity of the oceans and the impact that that c o 2 has on plants what we are learning is that c o 2 in elevated level 67415418 parts per $1000000000.00 right now but if we have a definite fear concentration of around $600.00 parts per 1000000 which we expect by the latter part of the century what we're realizing is that plants are negatively affected by this elevated c o 2 especially c 3 c 4 photosynthetic plants which form the kind of core of our food crops rice wheat barley sorghum millet all of the starches that we feed the planet on show that under elevated c o 2 levels that we would expect by the end of this latter part of the century that the protein levels are reduced by 15 to 20 percent of the crude protein the plants are actually stressed under these elevated to a 2 level in their rising so fast the plants cannot adapt the rate of change is so fast that the plant cannot adapt to develop it c o 2 and they are stressed and as a result not only the crude protein reduces by 15 to 20 percent the micronutrients vitamins are also reduced as well so we have a nutritional crisis imagine a planet of $7000000000.00 people now and crop production stays the same but we're at $9000000000.00 people and we have crops that are 15 to 20 percent less nutritious that is an impending nutritional crisis and everybody in public health knows that at the cornerstone of any healthy population is a healthy immune system and undernourished people don't have healthy immune systems to expend that to the impact on the ocean and how the boomerang comes back on land so the ocean also experience the stress of high c o 2 levels that actually absorb c o 2 and becomes more acidic what we've learned is that under high city can this. Which are already current now that the organisms the form the basis of food web of the oceans the Cal Perry sources these are fight a fight in the soul pranked and that form hard exoskeleton shells under those elevated acidity levels cannot form their shells that their shells are weak and dissolved and under higher c o 2 levels the potential for the collapse of the food base of the oceans is apparent and that we lose the food paper small organisms that again you know feed the rest of the food web up we could have a crash and make the marine ecosystems which are tremendously important for Human Nutrition and then to have much more intense hurricanes coming out of warming patterns that are changing in the oceans can you see a few words about that well we do know that most weather events extreme weather events are intensifying under climate change heat waves are longer duration and more intense hotter hurricanes appear to show a signal getting more intense We're not sure if they're getting more frequent precipitation is increasingly coming down in heavy short bursts rather than gentle rain all of the Think effect of the Celt Now those things are things that we given the appropriate attention we can adapt to what I was describing earlier with the c o 2 problem is intractable this is a problem that we don't have solutions for and it was ironic about it is that they are a major problem that have nothing to do with whether or climate they have to do with a carbon pollution problem you know it's it's related to climate change is that the excess carbon changes weather but it also changes fundamental parts of our of our ecosystem that we are reliant to one of the more fearful results of the melting of the glaciers and the building up of sea levels inundating cities with hundreds of millions of people around the globe from India to the United States explain that a bit well maybe you know 80 percent of world populations live near oceans so there's going to have to major retreat from the coastlines with sea levels depending on the climate model or what we're learning out. Quickly that would might happen but it's certainly happening and will happen those are our problems that you know again given the amount of resources and effort we can we can retreat from the oceans were going to have to but there will be a tremendous amount of suffering associated with that and while we're waiting to retreat or waiting to come to terms with this problem we will certainly have you know closely today's event that will kill many thousands of people and the time to act on that is now we learned from an earlier program Dr Luger that Miami Beach to Florida has a plan to evacuate not just people close to the ocean but the evacuated Miami Beach yes they're already experiencing regular inundation of vents with high tides I mean this is a regular occurrence right now and places that experience in these types events they get it they understand the threat and the disruption to life and economy and community that this happens when people get this place they don't just lose their home they lose their community they lose their livelihoods and those have consequences as well so I'm sitting in Southern California right now in Los Angeles area where wildfires are raging and at any moment they're telling me I'm getting notices from Southern California Edison that they're going to turn off the power fortunately they didn't do it during the show because their fear of the high winds will knock down power lines and start another wildfire so I can personally attest to the effects of what you're talking about and exactly what you're talking about is exactly what the trumpet ministration and his backers don't want anybody here and why you were in the situation one of my colleagues and one of the top people in climate help Kirk our Smith out of u.c. Berkeley had once said it was a very important quote I guess that you know to world of climate change the rich will find the world to be more polluted more comfortable colorless and a bleaker world the poor will die. As the poor pay more and our economy is well you're quite right they're the most vulnerable areas are populated by low income people well you know one last thing I hope we don't hear the word climate change anymore not because of Trump censorship but because it's too benign a phrase created by Frank Lutz the right wing Republican wordsmith in 2002 to replace the more alarming global warming phrase so I hope we all use words like climate crisis climate disruption climate catastrophe global warming and deprive Frank Lutz of his semantic colonialism Well we're all the time thank you very much Dr George Lugar Gratulations on your Joe a Callaway award for civic courage Gratulations to pier for holding up its defense of your rights as a civil servant and congratulations to all of you listening who are alert and come to the rescue of courageous people like Dr George Lugar. Thanks so much we've been speaking with Dr George Looper we will link to more of his story and the Callaway Ward said Ralph Nader Radio Hour dot com right now we're going to take a short break when we come back Ralph is going to answer some of your questions but 1st let's check in with our Corporate Crime Reporter Russ I'm Ok ever You're listening to the Ralph Nader Radio Hour back after this the national press building in Washington d.c. This your quote requirement for the morning minute for Friday Nov 8th 21000 on Russell macabre Oregon worker safety inspectors found serious workplace safety violations at a Dollar Tree in Portland Oregon after a rodent infestation that's according to report from television station k g w in Portland Oregon OSHA fine the company $900.00 in August the Dollar Tree store in Portland voidness to temporarily shut down after a k g w investigation found rich food packaging chewed food labels rodent feces on shelves and a dead mouse in an air vent the store since reopened employees complained of nausea lightheadedness and headaches after being exposed to dead mice Rodin urine and droppings organ OSHA records indicate Dollar Tree didn't do enough to keep out of the store and failed to provide proper safety equipment for employees who were asked to clean up for the quarter crime reporter on Russell McArdle. Thank you Russell Now before we do listener questions Ralph John Conyers died recently and I know you've worked closely with him over the years he was in Congress a firm of 60 years I believe or more than 60 years tell us a little about your relationship by John Conyers and your relationship with him Congressman Conyers who was the dean of the African-American the nation in the house as they called and he helped start the Black Caucus he was extremely responsive you can get on the phone he would return cause that's a very rare trait today for members of those who can't get through to get in thing underway to begin with that so critical any invite you down to his office group of civic advocates and leaders and obviously he was great on civil rights but he also tried to jumpstart a federal intense program on cracking down on corporate crime and never got anywhere but at least he introduced the legislation and he proposed that when he was senior figure out judiciary he was also a champion of ballot access for 3rd parties even know he was a longstanding member of the Democratic Party and introduced legislation to that effect included want to the most progressive members of the House of Representatives on numerous fronts including being anti-war in our modern times he left Congress a couple years ago under a cloud of personal matters but that doesn't really take away from what he did over a half a century representing portions of Detroit Michigan in the House of Representatives and taking seriously his ties us represent not just representative from Detroit. But thank you for that Ralph let's do some listener questions now this next one comes from Jay Goldberg who is a regular listener I think we did one of his questions a couple weeks ago and he said in the wrap up to this week's show Ralph offered a couple of reasons why Medicare for some is a bad idea but I think you overlooked the most obvious why people would have to buy into it so instead of being funded through progressive taxation it would be an option only for those who can afford it or whose employers provide it as private insurance is now I suppose there could be a government subsidy for low income groups similar to what Obamacare provides but they would never be as progressive as the taxes Bernie and Liz are proposing and would never be provided to the majority of working people also Medicare for some would have to call for deductibles and co-pays or no one would opt for private insurance is a Jay correct their rough you know he makes a good point and he provokes even further good points number one it's a set up to be taken over the way Medicare Advantage corporate run has now taken over one out of every 3 elderly people's Medicare insurers people don't realize is all these ads e hear about Medicare Advantage is just euphemism for takeover by companies like United Health Care of Medicare under contract and as Dr Fred Hyde said it's not what you pay it's what you get in or a lot of truck doors and Medicare Advantage and other people should be aware of it and so should people be if there is a Medicare for some or public option the other thing is Medicare for some does not control costs when you have full Medicare for all the corollary is restraint on skyrocketing drug prices restraint on skyrocketing hospital prices minimizing fraud in the health care area that's the experience and can. It's funny I had this discussion after we did that show with college classmate of mine who I happen to run into and one of my college classmates as Tom Styer was running for president in this this woman who I also know said hey you're supporting Tom And so while I like a lot of what Tom says about corporate power and obviously he's been a leader on the climate crisis but I'm not sure about his health care policy she says but he's talking about choice and so I ran down basically what we talked about last week and she kept the smile on her face but her eyes just went completely dead . To this it's amazing people make up their minds permanently they close off the kind of information that I think otherwise it would be more receptive thank you for your questions keep them coming on the Ralph Nader radio our website I want to thank our guest again George Lugar from the c.d.c. For those years listening on the radio that's our show for you podcast listeners stay tuned for some finest material we call the wrap up the transcript of the show will appear on the Ralph Nader radio our website soon after the episode is posted subscribe to us on a Ralph Nader radio or You Tube channel and for Rouse weekly column it's free go to Nader dot org for more from Russell Mo Khyber go to Corporate Crime Reporter dot com Hello Michael Prachi spearhead and I'm home grown from Davis California you're listening to 95 point k d t p m p. M Dr Anthony wise words and yes his Climate Connections. 20 years ago Sean and Beth already had trouble finding land to farm so they bought a plot that was designated by the state of Ohio as unsuitable for agriculture and we just had to set about disproving that the land was overgrown but too steep for a tractor so the couple began rotating goats through parts of the property the goats devoured brush and briers we watched the pastures transform even these very steep pastures turned from Rock where you slid down they are all now grass covered pastures that success prompted them to look at other methods farmers use before modern equipment was available what we find is that almost any job that needs to be done there is an animal that can do that in return for a little bit of management and care raising animals minimize the need for mowing and nourish the land with manure pits consume waste and turn compost and chickens help control insects as a result the Doherty's farm with very little feed fertilizer or fuel they say this shows that policy is not the only way to fight environmental degradation almost anybody can turn to the plot of soil nearest them and start having a direct effect. Climate Connections is produced by the Center for Environmental communications at the connections. Following program is from the k d r t archives.
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