Transcripts For KCSM Democracy Now 20170306

And then we look at the mystery behind russias role in the 2016 u. S. President ial election. The president of the United States is accusing the former president of wiretapping him. I think this is something if this happened if, if. Trump accusesent president obama of wiretapping him, the fbi director james comey takes the unusual to have of asking the Justice Department to refute trumps unsubstantiated claim. We will have a debate. All that and more, coming up. Welcome to democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. Fbi director james comey is asking the Justice Department to publicly refute President Trumps unsubstantiated claims that former president obama ordered trumps phones be wiretapped during the 2016 president ial campaign. Fbi director james comey president obama, and others have , all rejected trumps allegations, which he first made during a tweet storm on saturday morning. Trump began by tweeting terrible just found out that obama had my wires tapped in trump tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is mccarthyism he then went on to tweet how low has president obama gone to tap my phones during the very sacred election process. This is nixon watergate. Bad or sick guy trump has called for a congressional investigation and the white house is standing by the allegations, even though it has not been provided evidence to back them up. This is trump Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders speaking to Martha Raddatz on abcs this week on sunday. Look, i think hes going off of information he is saying that has led him to believe that this is a very real potential. And if it is, this is the greatest overreach and the greatest abuse of power that i think we have ever seen and a attack on democracy itself. The American People have a right to know if this took place. Amy it appears the information trump Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders is referring to is a breitbart article that has been circulated within the white house. The article draws on a thursday report by the far right wing radio host mark levin, who claimed without evidence that obama submitted a request to the secret fisa court to tap trumps phones at trump tower. Both democratic and republican lawmakers, including florida senator marco rubio, say theyve seen no evidence supporting these claims. This is California Democratic congresswoman nancy pelosi. This is it is called a rap up smear. Make up something and then have the press write about it, then say everybody is writing about this charge. It is a tool of an authoritarian to just have you always be talking about what you want them to be talking about. Amy the intercept reports that as president of the United States, trump has the power to declassify surveillance records. Meaning, if his wiretapping claims were true, he could prove it immediately. Trumps wiretapping claims come amid continued scrutiny over Trump Associates communications with russian during the 2016 campaign. On friday, attorney general Jeff Sessions said he will address lawmakers questions about his communications with russias ambassador last year. All nine Democratic Senators on the Senate Judiciary committee have asked Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley to bring sessions back for another hearing, amid allegations he lied under oath in his first testimony. The wall street journal is reporting sessions used Trump Campaign funds for the trip to the Republican National convention where he spoke with , the russian ambassador. Sessions has recused himself from the investigation into russian interference in the 2016 president ial campaign. The Washington Post reports trump was furious that sessions recused himself. On tuesday, the Senate Judiciary committee will hold confirmation hearing for Rod Rosenstein for Deputy Attorney general, who if confirmed, would take over the investigation. We will have more on trump, russia and the wiretapping , claims later in the broadcast. The Trump Administration is continuing further measures to crackdown against immigration and immigrants currently living in the United States. Reuters is reporting the department of Homeland Security is considering a new proposal to separate mothers from their children if they are caught trying to cross the border together. Currently, families are detained together and are supposed to be released from detention relatively quickly, after which they can continue living in the United States while their deportation or asylum case is processed. But under the new proposal, families would be separated, mothers would be detained, and their children would be placed temporarily in the custody of the department of health and Human Services. The consideration of the proposal comes as federal immigration agents continue to detain people nationwide, including in los angeles where last week ice agents tore a 13yearold girl away from her father, who was detained by ice agents as he was driving her to school. On saturday, mexico opened Legal Centers at all 50 consulates across the United States in efforts to defend mexicans from trumps deportation crackdown. A landmark classaction lawsuit is accusing forprofit Prison Company geo group of violating federal antislavery laws by forcing tens of thousands of detained immigrants to work for free or for as little as 1 a day. The lawsuit was first filed in 2014 and won classaction status last week. It accuses geo group of forcing people detained at the denver contract detention facility to work without pay to clean the facility or face solitary confinement if they refuse. It also accuses geo group of breaking colorados minimum wage laws by paying only 1 a day for other work carried out by prisoners inside the jail. Geo group owns and operates the Denver Detention Center under a contract with ice. President trump is expected to issue a new executive order temporarily banning all refugees, as well as people from six majority muslim countries, from entering the United States. The New York Times reports the new ban would apply to people from syria, sudan, iran, somalia, libya, and yemen, but not people from iraq. Iraqis were included in trumps first muslim travel ban, which was blocked by the courts in february amid massive nationwide protests. Unlike the first ban, the new executive order is also not expected to apply to people from these countries with green cards or who already have a visa. In california, a federal court in santa ana is slated to hold a hearing today on the case of an afghan couple and their children, who lawyers say were detained illegally at the Los Angeles International airport tuesday and have since been held without justification. Lawyers say customs and Border Protection agents detained the couple and their young children, including their eightmonth old infant, even though they all had valid visas to enter the United States. The International Refugee Assistance Center says the family received special immigrant visas because the father had worked for the u. S. Government in afghanistan. After reportedly being detained in isolation without access to lawyers, the family was then separated and sent to separate detention facilities where they remain incarcerated. In kent, washington, police are investigating the shooting of a 39yearold sikh man, who was cleaning his car in his driveway friday when a man approached, began calling him names, told him go home to your country, and then pushed him to the ground and shot him in the arm. The man is a u. S. Citizen originally from punjab, india. He survived the attack, which police are investigating as a possible hate crime. In oklahoma, three Muslim Students were asked to fill out an islamophobic questionnaire while trying to meet with an oklahoma lawmaker at the State Capitol last thursday. The council on americanislamic relations says questions reflected intentionally distorted ideas about islam, including one that read the koran, the sunna of mohammed and sharia law of all schools say that the husband can beat his wife. Do you beat your wife . The students were seeking to meet with Oklahoma State congressmember john bennett, who in 2014 called islam a cancer in our nation that needs to be cut out. The New York Times reports over the last six weeks, the Trump Administration has rolled back more than 90 regulations that benefit wall street banks, gun sellers, coal, oil and gas companies, and other corporations. The times calls the rollback one of the most significant shifts in regulatory policy in recent decades. In many cases, the regulatory rollbacks have come after the direct requests of lobbyists or trade industry groups. Trumps administration is expected to continue eliminating more regulations in the coming days and weeks, including rolling back rules that limit car pollution. Small crowds turned out for a nationwide day of protrump demonstration saturday at many of the estimated 28 protest, the program demonstrators were met by counter protesters will stop in berkeley, california, clashes broke out between antifascist protesters in the protrump protesters, some of whom showed up armed with knives and batons and wearing helmets and gas masks. In new york city, about 40 protrump demonstrators rallied their trump tower. There is a lot of misinformation going around. All of Donald Trumps speeches and rallies. Everything i hear afterwards is so washed up that is why i like he reaches to the people directly, whether be through twitter or doing three rallies a day when he was campaigning. There is so much information going on. They are clearly rooted for one side. If you actually follow his intentions, there is no racism or fascism. Just a guy concern for his country. Amy the pentagon is ramping up military in yemen. On thursday and friday, the u. S. Carried out more than 30 airstrikes. Thats compared to 36 airstrikes the u. S. Carried out in all of 2016 in yemen. The pentagon says the strikes were targeting al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. They come after a botched ground raid on a yemeni village in january left 25 civilians and one u. S. Navy seal dead. The United Nations special rapporteur on torture has accused the Mexican Police forces of widespread use of torture, including sexual violence, electric shocks, beatings, and asphyxiation. The new report says the torture is routinely used to gain confessions and says the practice is part of the widespread impunity in mexico. The state of arkansas is planning to execute 8 men within a 10day period in april, which would be an unprecedented rate of executions in modern u. S. History. Arkansas has suspended executions since 2005, amid challenges in acquiring lethal injection drugs and lawsuits over the drugs used. Arkansas says it is rushing the executions because the States Supply of the sedative midazolam will soon expire. The drug has been linked to painful, botched executions in alabama and other states. In january, an ohio judge ruled ohios lethal injection process was unconstitutional because of its use of midazolam. And a new United Nations report has criticized the United States government over its handling of the 3. 8 billion Dakota Access pipeline, which has faced massive resistance from the Standing Rock sioux tribe of north dakota, as well as members of hundreds of other native american nations. The report says the u. S. Government had failed to communicate with and consult the native americans and showed a lack of good faith involvement. The report was delivered to state Department Officials on friday. On saturday, protesters rallied at Columbus Circle in new york city to oppose the pipeline, which is currently in the final stages of construction following the Trump Administrations approval. This is isha rancho. I think it is especially meaningful to be here. I was born and raised in new york. Every time i pass it, it reminds me how much we blatantly love to rub it in the faces of our Indigenous People that this land is stolen. Im here at the protest because, you know, the fight is not over. A lot of people think it has been finished for weeks or months, but it is not over. We are still protesting in solidarity. It is our duty to win in our duty to keep fighting. Amy a correction to an earlier headline, the wall street journal was reporting that Jeff Sessions used his own Senate Reelection campaign funds, not Trump Campaign funds, to travel to the Republican National Convention Last summer. We will have more on sessions, russia, trump claims about wiretapping later in the broadcast. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. Juan welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. We turn now to look at a department of Homeland Security proposal to radically shift how federal agents treat undocumented families, including asylum seekers, who attempt to enter the country. Reuters is reporting dhs is considering a proposal to separate mothers from their children if they are caught trying to cross the border together. Under the plan, mothers would be held in custody while children separate mothers from their would initially be placed in the custody of the department of health and Human Services. Amy texas congressman democrat Henry Cuellar criticized the new proposal. He said bottom line separating mothers and children is wrong. That type of thing is where we depart from Border Security and get into violating human rights. We go now to los angeles where we are joined by marielena hincapie, executive director, National Immigration law center. So this is a proposal, we understand, that is being floated by the department of Homeland Security. Separating mothers from their children. Can you tell us what you understand . Invitation. For the yes, this is a proposal, which means we can still try our best to stop this. This really amounts to state sanctioned violence against children, against families coming to the United States to seek safety. Everything is a administration ofht now is such a lack transparency. We do not have details, except with the media is reporting. Reuters is reporting that there is a proposal based on some meetings that ice has held starting early february. There were some notes from that that have been shared with both msnbc and reuters. Most recently, the reuters reporter was able to confirm with attorneys of the department of Homeland Security this is very much part of her proposal they are seriously considering. Purposeat would be the of separating me mothers from the children that accompany them . Decides cruelty and inhumanity and inflicting emotional psychological trauma . I think it is deterrence. We saw this even under the Obama Administration clearly has begun wanting to show that immigrants are not welcome here. Even immigrants were seeking referee refuge. We will callwhat the states proposal if it becomes a final policy. At the deterrence approach has been a failed approach. He cannot deter a mother from making the difficult decision of trying to save her childrens lives. Any mother, any parent will do that. And no wall, no level of detention is ever going to stop that. Amy can you explain exactly how it would work . Mother, putake the her in jail, and what would they do with the children . , again, we dont have that he tells yet. But what we understand that is being proposed is, yes, the family units would first be detained. They would be detained when they arrive at the border. Lets remember these are called currently three family Detention Centers, two in texas and one in pennsylvania. These are jails. These are families been put in jail. The children are sent to health and Human Services facility, but that is still a jail. They do not belong in jail. It was the long together. Children belong with their mothers and fathers come in parks. , homes, and what we believe will happen as the families will be separated, children will be ripped apart from their parents arms, and placed in these separate Detention Centers and will then go to the Legal Process which includes a credible fear interview. That means it is an opportunity for migrants to show whatever evidence they have to explain they are afraid of returning home to their home country because they fear persecution, and in many cases, murder. The fact that children will be, one, separated from their family whattwo, we have no idea the process will have to go through again, because they will be by themselves and to do so, the fact that 88 were sent a families that came in the credibleyears pass the fear interviews. They have a right to seek asylum. Juan some of the republicans in congress are claiming the women are willing to risk the dangers of making the journey with their children because they are assured they will quickly be release from detention and then the court dates will be set months or even years into the future. What is your response to that . My response is that those are completely uninformed comments. Frankly, again, they are comments that talk to how out of touch these republican policy makers would say that. Again, lets understand what is happening in central america. In the northern triangle, the levels of violence have increased dramatically over the last years. Most of the people the number of people coming over have increased in effect, the number of women, and particularly teenage girls, are increasing because the levels of film aside, genderbased violence, rape, kidnapping, etc. Is what is driving people to leave and make a difficult decision. Theyre not just coming to the u. S. Theyre going to neighboring countries. The fact that a mother or father would make this difficult decision to come to the United States and make the journey train,by foot or on the 5, 10, 20 five days, that is not a decision a parent makes lightly. These policymakers they claim people are coming here just because they think theyre going to be oblique at detained briefly and then go into the community, are completely uninformed. Also say they should be released immediately. Once there initially detained and have the opportunity to prove through a credible fear interview that they are seeking asylum, they should be released, not kept in detention. Amy we should be clear that under president obama, who presided over more deportations that any president in history, the families were not supposed to be detained, women and children, for more than 21 days, we documented many times where they were held well over a year removed from one Deportation Center to another. I want to ask you about the muslim ban that is expected to be handed down perhaps today, a new muslim travel ban. Your organization was the first to file among the first a lawsuit against it. Can you talk about it and what we expect to see today, dropping iraq fromm the set the seven . Yes, we are hearing the muslim 2. 0 ban might be released as early as noon eastern time. We expect what the administration has said is they have tweaked it. We understand there removing iraq from it. Any level of tweaking is not going to change the challenges this exec of order has. As you mentioned, the National Immigration law center along with International Refugee assistance project, yell law school clinic, aclu filed the judahlawsuit on behalf of iraqi refugees that were detained at jfk as well as everyone else that will was similarly situated around the country. That was the first legal victory that immigrants and refugees had against is a administration when saturday that a federal judge in the Eastern District of new york ordered the federal government to not detain or deport any of these individuals that have been in transit that had arrived. We have separately filed a lawsuit in maryland challenging the entire executive order. As you know, the state of washington has also filed. There are a number of lawsuits. All of these cases are somewhat on hold until we see the text of the revised muslim ban. Frankly, we expect it will be equally unlawful, unamerican, and unconstitutional. Juan marielena hincapie, i would ask about the news reported that came out recently that this classaction lawsuit by inmates who had been held in Detention Center because of the wages they are being paid, some forced to work for one dollar a day were nothing at all . Were nothing at all . I just lost audio. Certainly pursue that issue in the coming days, this lawsuit that was first filed in 2014, immigrant saying the were forced to engage and slave labor. , thank youincapie for being with us, executive director of National Immigration law center. When we come back, we go to a family whose father was driving his 13yearold to school and he was ripped away by ice. We will play some of the video and get response from the family and the familys lawyer. Stay with us. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with juan gonzalez. We will begment, looking at the mr. Behind russias role in the 2016 u. S. President ial election as President Trump accuses president obama of wiretapping him. Fbi director james comey takes the unusual step of asking the Justice Department to refute claims. Unsubstantiated we will get the latest on that. At first, were going to look more at trumps immigration policies. Juan last month, President Donald Trump called his deportation plans a military operation during a meeting last month with the manufacturing ceos. See what is you happening at the border. For the first time, we are getting gang members out, getting really bad dudes out of this country. And at a rate that nobody has seen before. And they are the bad ones. It is a military operation toause what has been allowed come into our country, when you see Gang Violence that you have read about like never before, and much of that is people here illegally. They are rough and they are tough, but they are not tough like our people, so we are getting them out. Trump talksresident about supporting druglords and bad dudes, we turn now to a case in los angeles where ice officials tore a child away from her father as he was taking her to school. On tuesday morning, romulo avelicagonzalez and his wife were driving their 13yearold daughter fatima to her school in the northeast Los Angeles Neighborhood of Highland Park just after dropping off their younger daughter. Then two black, unmarked vehicles approached the familys car. Fatima captured part of the arrest on her cellphone in which she can be heard sobbing as ice agents arrest and detain her father. He has lived in the United States for more than two decades and is the father of four. In a statement, ice defended its actions, saying avelicagonzalez had a dui in 2009 and an outstanding order of removal from 2014. Amy the family says he was less than two blocks away from the school at the time of the arrest. Immigration attorneys and advocates fear the arrest signals a shift in ices longstanding policy against conducting enforcement activities at socalled sensitive locations such as schools, churches, and hospitals. Avelicagonzalezs arrest comes amid growing fears of mass deportations under President Trump. For more, were going to los angeles where we are joined by two guests. Jocelyn avelica is the daughter of romulo avelicagonzalez. He was detained by ice agents when dropping off jocelyns sister, 13yearold fatima, at the school. And emi maclean, an immigration attorney for National Day Laborer organizing network who is assisting the avelicagonzalez family. We welcome you both to democracy now jocelyn, can you tell us what happened when your parents were taking your sister to school . Describe the scene, and then were going to play a clip of the video that was taken from the car. Ok. My parents, when they were taking my sisters to school, my sister who took the video, fatima, she noticed there was a car in the corner of our street. She said the windows were tinted, but she did not think anything of it. So they were on their way to drop off my youngest sister. They left her and then they made a right. Once they made the right, my dad figured out that they were being followed and that it was ice. My dad knew it was ice. Out, they he found put lights so he could stop. My dad was really scared. He did not know what to do. Eventually, when he stopped, that is when my sister started crying and they told him, what is your name . You have a deportation. Amy i want to play, joslin, the video who took the video . My sister. Amy so she is filming. Lets just listen. [fatima crying] amy joslin, what has happened to your father now . Where is the . Inright now my dad is california. Amy where . In the Detention Center. , can you tellean us a little bit about her father and his interactions backandforth with immigration over the past two years . Yes. Romulo avelicagonzalez has lived in the United States for over 25 years. Yes four u. S. Citizen daughters in the United States. Jocelyn is the second eldest. As you mentioned, she is a 12yearold he has a 12yearold and 13 numeral daughter. They were being taken to school that day when ice agents into the vehicles followed them to school, picking up and arresting mr. Avelicagonzalez literally right after he dropped one of the daughters to school and as he was en route to drop the other daughter to school. Ice, and ice intended to deport mr. Avelicagonzalez on tuesday when it were picked up. They were planning after more than 25 years in the United States, they were planning to put them on a busted tijuana within hours of picking them up outside his daughters school. The community rallied, the school rallied, jocelyn and her family rallied in a way that was truly extraordinary. The communitys actions prevented his deportation that they. Isjoslyn shared, mr. Avelica currently in a Detention Center, a private for profit Attention Center in the desert about an hour have outside los angeles. It was a really important victory on tuesday, but there needs to be a lot more actions and a lot more engagement from the community to push back on these actions by ice to prevent his ultimate deportation. Juan how does this jibe . Weve seen the quote President Trump talking about the government is deporting drug dealers, gang members, bad dudes. Here you have a situation of a father who apparently is only criminal violation is a dui several years ago . Teed upvelica has prior, no convictions. One a dui from about a decade consider arime would status crime, a crime essentially connected to someone being undocumented where he used misused a registration for a car because he was not able to get a drivers license at the time. That was about 20 years ago. Him a priority under the Obama Administration, which also has agreed just distinctions between socalled good and that immigrants. This made him a priority under the Trump Administration where essentially, everyone is a priority any distinction is not a real distinction. And part of why it has been so important to have the community rally around romulo avelicagonzalezs case is to demonstrate that no one is disposable, that we need to contest every single case, that we need to fight back against these kinds of reports asians and this kind of rhetoric and propaganda that is coming from the mouth of the president. Amy i was at the museum of Natural History yesterday, talking to someone who was telling me about teachers. And i hear this all over now about teachers, whether they are in boston in a philadelphia, washington, around the country is that kids are now afraid to come to school. That undocumented families are holding their kids back, fearful that Something Like this will happen. That you do one arrest like this, and it sends the message that trump once to send around wants to send around the country. Your thoughts about this . That is one of the struggles with this case. It is gotten an extraordinary amount of attention, which joslyn can share how that has energized her father and energized her family, the amount of people that are fighting back. In some ways, that can have the kind of deterrent effects that we know that donald trump wants. To make peoples afraid of coming to the u. S. , to make this country unwelcoming of immigrants. A case like this getting the kind of attention it has got and have that effect, unless we use this case to fight back, unless we refuse to be the sensitized to the kind of horror and trauma that we see in the video that fatima shot, unless we use that as an opportunity to mobilize and fight back and to say, not in our backyards, not in our cities, not never committed to, not in our country. Were going to not be complicit in this kind of brutal Immigration Enforcement actions from this a administration or any administration. Juan jocelyn, could you talk about the impact on your family come of your father now being in detention, taken away from you . Also, your reaction to the support you have gotten from the community and from advocates . It is been amazing, the Old Community how they came together and that is really important. I think as a Community Coming together, we will win and we will be we will have a victory in this. Truly blessedare to have all of this going on. When we feel trained, when we feel we cannot go on, we hear my dads voice. Once we hear his voice, we want to do so much more. We want to help other families also be able to speak out, to not stay in the shadows. And also to have a plan. I think this is making my family so much stronger. This has sisters affected them in so many ways. Students in l. A. And that a 22 mile yesterday on saturday. They had a run 22 miles. The day beforeg to my mom saying, i do not want to go because my dad was the one cheering them on. My dad was were going to take the bikes and after that we can ride bikes. To do in l. A. Marathon for my dad. So the running will be for my dad released. But i see their face every day and i know they are not the same. My sisters are not the same. At this is why we are fighting. We are fighting for our family tax and we are fighting so other andlies can also reach out were not goi to let trump win in this. Were going to stick together, the community, and were going to do Anything Possible to have my father back so others can so they can feel like they have the support. Amy we want to thank you for being with us, Jocelyn Avelica. How old are you . 19. Amy can you see your dad in jail now . Goneght now we have not to visit him. We can go, but because there is a case of the chickenpox right now so we have not been able to go. But as soon as that gets cleared up, we are going to go see my dad. Amy Jocelyn Avelica theres a quarantine and the facility and that not lifted it. Amy there is a quarantine in the jails all of the prisoners like heard that are being exposed to this . Theyve not had a have not let attorneys into the facility, either, so into a portion of the press facility where there is this quarantine. I will say joslyn and her family have been speaking to their father by phone regularly. He, rather than being totally , hased and depressed expressed to them how proud he is of them and how energized he is in the community and others inside watching the kind of mobilization that the community has put forward to defend him and to try to fight back against his deportation. Amy so he is brought into a sick facility and quarantined there. Emi maclean, thank you for being with us, with the National Day Laborer organizing network who and Jocelyn Avelica, the daughter of romulo avelicagonzalez. We will continue to follow your dads case. When we come back, we look at russia and the Trump Administration. Stay with us. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with juan gonzalez. Juan the ongoing mystery of russias role in the 2016 u. S. Election took an unexpected turn Early Saturday Morning when President Trump took to twitter writing terrible just found out that obama had my wires tapped in trump tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is mccarthyism amy trump went on to tweet how low has president obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is nixon watergate. Bad or sick guy President Trump offered no evidence but within 24 hours he , called on lawmakers to probe obamas actions. On sunday morning, trump Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders defended the remarks to host Martha Raddatz on abcs this week. The president of the United States is accusing the former president of wiretapping him. I think this is, again, if this happened, martha if, if, if, if. What is the president saying it did happen . I think he is going off information he is saying that is led him to believe that this is a very real potential. And if it is, this is the greatest overreach in the greatest abuse of power that i think weve ever seen and a huge attack on democracy itself and the American People have a right to know if this took place. Juan it appears information trump Spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders is referring to is a breitbart article that has is based on a report by right wing radio host mark levin, who. For the part of the National Security group rather is that i oversaw, there was no such wiretap activity mounted against president elect at the time or as a candidate were against the campaign. I cant speak for other title iii authorized entities and the government, state or local. The fbi, for instance, without the information you would know or not know . Yes, i would know that. Something like this, absolutely. At this point you cannot confirm or deny . I can deny. There is no fisa order . No. Amy during the same interview, James Clapper said he has seen no evidence of collusion between members of the Trump Campaign and the russians. Meanwhile, the New York Times is reporting fbi director james comey has asked the Justice Department to publicly reject trumps assertion that obama ordered the tapping of trumps phones. The times described comeys request as a remarkable rebuke of a sitting president. This all comes just days after attorney general Jeff Sessions recused himself from any investigation into last years president ial campaign, following reports he met twice with russias ambassador to the u. S. While serving as a campaign surrogate for donald trump. To make sense of whats happening we are joined by two onuests who will not agree most anything on this issue. Attorney scott horton is a lecturer at Columbia Law School and a contributing editor at harpers magazine. Robert parry, veteran investigative journalist and editor of the bsite consortiumnews. Com. His latest article is the politics behind russiagate. Scott, lets begin with you around this fisa order. What is President Trump have to say he is heard report. Cant you pick up the phone and find out . Absolutely. As commanderinchief, he would have the right to donate and receive a briefing about anything going on it would also have the power to declassify and release any information that has fisaobtained, including court orders, warrants them or other documents. Yes chosen not to do that and instead rely on a breitbart report of a mark levin rant. Amy and declassify. And release. Juan scott, what is your sense of, as is continuing russias situation has developed over the last several weeks, of what is going on here . Forhere is growing pressure a probe of russian activities and election within congress. I think it is gathering support from more leaders i think is more difficult for the Republican Leadership to push back against it will stop i think what we see right now is an attempt by President Trump to derail all of that and change the agenda to another issue. I have to note, if you look at general clappers statement, it was very carefully phrased. He said no fisa court order of this talk of the trump tower. I think there is something in the background that the media so far is not to get a good job of reporting and covering. Court order. A fisa to be clear, it is not in order that directed capping of trump tower or donald trump, rather it is an order that was issued on october 15, has not been reported in the u. S. Media, has been reported in europe more extensively, and it is in connection with counterintelligence investigation that is been going on since last summer that targets not donald trump, but five individuals who have worked one point did play some role in his campaign and their dealings with people who are suspected to be russian intelligence operatives. Amy tell us more about that. We dont know much because the entire process surrounding fisa court orders intelligence act a judge had to review and find there was probable cause to issue the order. All of the judges of the fisa court are republicans. There also were flickr by chief robert and very much like cam. To authorize this is quite something. I think we saw Lindsey Graham looking at that in the past. About reports previously intercepts of communication and what they may or may not have said. That is all coming out of this investigation. Juan robert parry, you have written there is no there there in all of the hullabaloo we have seen in the press over russia and trump. Can you expound on that and give us your take . Im not sure there is no there there. What im saying is so far, the Obama Administration and as far as we know what has happened since then with some of the holdovers from the Obama Administration, they have not presented the real evidence to show there was this effort by the russians to leak this material or hack this material and provided to wikileaks. Felix has flatly denied they receive this information from the russians. They have indicated there were two american insiders who they believe would have any sources of this information. What you have got is a lot of ifs going on, not just those that President Trump has put out through his tweets, but also now there is a lot of ifs about what happened initially. We have a situation where washington has kind of gone nuts , where there has not been the kind of evidence presented on anyones part that convinces me or a lot of other people who have looked at this, including former people from the National Security agency. People like william binney. You have problems here where the evidence is not supporting, at a lot ofthis point, these allegations. We have a lot of suspicions and a lot of smoke, but so far, not much fire. Juan you have raised that russia is increasingly being made the boogie man, not only by those on the right, but many on who were either supporters of president obama or were progressives who ended up supporting Hillary Clinton that you feel there is a necessary unnecessary heating up of a new cold war. There is no question were in a new cold war and were seeing a new mccarthyism. What youre seeing is a very hostile approach thathe United States has taken toward russia going back really to the ukraine crisis. It has been escalating. The russians have responded somewhat inkind. You had a much more cooperative missions of between president obama and president putin that preceded the 2014 ukraine crisis. They worked together on the syrian crisis. It was putin who got assad to give up chemical weapons. They worked on getting a rant to constrain its nuclear program. It then with the crisis in ukraine, which was not simply a case of it was a case that involved some american input to try to create that as a turning point in how the soul relationship developed. So weve had this narrative setup that the russians are made into the bad guys, and that is now continuing into the campaign and now the new presidency. Amy scott horton, your thoughts russianllegations of hacking of the election and russias involvement with donald trump and his associates, even if we are talking about oligarchs hoping to finance Donald Trumps develop new projects because it was hard for him to get lines of credit since he had gone bankrupt so many times . I think just the hacking and release of information all on its own is actually relatively little. Not so much of a deal. Assuming the russians do it, and i think the evidence, unlike my colleague, the evidence is convincing they did, it is not a big deal. Wld make this a far bigger matter is if there were collusion between the Trump Campaign and the russians throughout the process and if the hacking were requested, if it were be guided by them. And beyond that, it were to turn out the russians in fact financed donald trump to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars as indeed iss son acknowledged the press statement before the campaign got going. Amy what do you mean . If you look at trumps situation after the bankruptcies occurred in 2004 when the banks withdrew their letters of credit, most people thought he was finished. From that point forward, there was an infusion of hundreds of millions of dollars into trump projects, trump branded projects all around the world that we floated the trump empire and made a viable all of that money seems to have come out of russia. And that is something that was really not very well developed during the campaign. Those facts altogether would explain what is otherwise an almost inexplicable relationship between donald trump and putin were he cannot criticize this man and say a negative thing about him. Juan robert parry, you are famed for your investigative reports and have said, unfortunately, in journalism today, there is a lack of real investigative reporting. Basically, who think of the first leaks from which branch of which Intelligence Agency in the government. What do you think is lacking in terms of the kind of investigations that journalist should be using . What about this issue of longterm economic relationships that may have existed between trump and russian oligarchs . There are a lot of ifs here. I dont think there is been any hard evidence presented on these things either. There was a reference from a son, who apparently was talking about russian oligarchs buying up trump condos and other properties. But that does not mean it was coming from the russian government. This idea that everything in russia is controlled at the top is not true. It is a large country like ours is an there many different factors and fractions that operate. So to pretend we all know this is somewhat misleading. Theres a huge amount of this whole question of ifs. We are at a very dangerous point here where there is a real possibility of a crisis between the United States and russia. Instead of anything that has been very serious or hard in terms of evidence, we have been dealing with some position. As scott said, even if the russians did somehow get this information to wikileaks, the information is accurate. It dealt with things that were relatively significant in terms of what we would know about how the Clinton Campaign was operating, but it was not decisive to the election. Hillary clinton herself blamed james comey for his reopening of her investigation into her email situation as a principal cause for her defeat. It was not the russians. Amy scott horton . I think the election in which the man and second past the post wins is a still in president and shift of 40,000 votes would have dramatically affected the outcome any number of hundreds of things couldve caused the change in the election. I think what we have seen here, and i agree with robert parry on this, is a dramatic failure of inquiry by the press during the election, failure to develop a of really important issues relating to trump and the Trump Campaign. But there is no reason to not fully explore and develop them right now. I think in the end, if everything goes in the direction i think it is going to go, this would be the end of the trump presidency. ,uan you have also said havent you, basically, you would agree with bob parry on the criticism of u. S. Policy toward russia, that there is been much more aggressive posture by the United States and interfering then in affairs close to russian borders . Yes, i agree. I think the u. S. Made great mistakes in the way it expanded nato into the region, the way it interacted with georgia, for instance before the war in 2008. But that is another set of questions. I think the confrontation were looking at from russia today is not the old court war cold war confrontation with Nuclear Weapons and armored divisions. Aggressive policy of intervention and engagement in western politics and western elections, not just in the United States, it is going on in france and italy and germany. And following the same shadow from the same profile almost every single country. Amy were going to continue this conversation and post it online at democracynow. Org. Scott horton teaches at columbia golf law school and robert parry writes for consortium news. We will link to his peace there. That does it for our show. Democracy now is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. Email your comments to outreach democracynow. Org or mail them to democracy now p. O. Box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now ] today, on americas test kitchen. 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