0 take their own medicine. not just public health but also public education. they got to put their kids in public school. >> on the budget? >> on the budget, sorry. they got to put their kids into public school. they would become libertarian faster than you could say iran. >> you make a good point here. they keep focusing on obama care which is not going to happen. you probably could get other things. the keystone pipeline. one or two other things. to keep the focus on obama care when it is clear they're not going to get it and then take the threat of shutting down the government when they probably can get two or three other -- >> nobody has threatened to shut down the government. that is a talking point from the left. >> that president obama -- >> yes, president obama has threatened. only threatening the government shutdown comes from the left. the republicans in the house and the senate have been saying we will fund every single thing in the entire government except for obama care. you get everything else except for obama care. and it's ridiculous that we're at this point when 77% of people want the individual mandate delay. when a majority of people want keystone and have wanted it for a long time. we have to come to a debt ceiling negotiation to get those. >> what do you mean, we are going to have a shutdown. >> republicans aren't saying we want to shut the government down. >> the reason why bob's right, there will be a government shutdown once they get a resolution signed and they're not going to get it. i'll explain that in one second. they didn't do that the first time around. the house didn't separate obama care or attach it to at least something else where they can say we'll pass all these other things and not pass this one yet. then you had a game. you had an argument as a republican. here's why this thing i think is shut down for the first time ever, ever could possibly happen. the house republicans, tea party guys, even boehner now, they have to address obama care. harry reid in the senate, let's say they do, then that house bill, that senate bill that went to the house, gets fixed. address obama care. they send it back to the senate. harry reid categorically said, if you touch that bill, it's a no. and they have the votes for no. >> there were 17 days in the '90s where they were shut down. they filled in and got money from here and there. >> fair enough. mean in recent tyimes, like the last few times -- >> 2005 seems like a recent time. >> i think it's the point of many conservative commentators who have taken heat for not supporting the defunding effort. this time around, they haven't. that means that veterans, as you heard the president say, veterans won't be getting their checks. seniors won't be getting their checks. it's an emotional argument to scare the american public. will it work? >> listen, i don't think there's any doubt. all the polls running against obama in either single way, the exception, by the way, obama, people don't like it, it do not want to see the government shut down because of it, the funding of it. i think there's going to be a deal. they get ride to the -- >> how do you do it though? >> i think what andrea said. you give the pipeline. it seeps that would be a victory. you leave obama care. the whole reason with this, he said he would take a look at it. >> that's my point. the caucus will probably not -- if you're leaving obama care in, a whole group -- >> take obama care out. >> no, leave obama care in the senate bill. even throw in all the other goodies. >> there is an apocalyptic view to this which is appealing. the only way to kill big government is to let it kill itself. right now, the government is approaching fat elvis during the years in the '70s right before he croaked on the toilet seat. basically obama care is a huge tray of bacon and banana sandwiches. >> as it happened to elvis. that was very well put. >> we are running out of people -- running out of people to support this kind of program. >> "the wall street journal" had an interesting art will. if you all believe what you believe about obama care. i don't. it will fall on its own. >> that is my feeling -- >> why do you want to have this battle -- >> the argument behind it that very rarely or ever has that happen, even the worst government program still exists. that stuff is still there. >> why is why the republicans who make the argument to not shut down the government, that actually has worked. like in the uk when the trash piled up. people were really angry. they ran out of money. this is how you enact change. i agree with letting it collapse. i don't think they should push for the individual mandate. let the democrats own it. let them defend it. enact, change and win. >> if they play it on the budget, i don't agree with it, it it's one thing. the debt ceiling is a serious, serious issue. >> it is serious. >> people will dump bonds. there's a lot involved. >> again, no. >> you say no. >> it's all the fearmongering going on. >> well, it's coming out of "wall street journawall street. they're the ones saying it. >> i think in the end -- >> they don't think it. nicole was reporting live from the street and they said they don't believe it's going to happen. i'll going to play a sound bite, cruz reacting to the president. >> the good news is the process isn't other. it's going to go back to the house of representatives. i salute the house for having the courage to stand up and fight and defund obama care and i remain confident, hopeful and optimistic the house will stand their ground, will continue the fight. which means this issue will come back to the senate. after the house stands their ground yet again, we will have an opportunity for republicans to come home. >> katie, i don't want to speak for cruz but it sounds like he likes greg's analogy of fat elvis on the toilet ready to o.d. >> we're at this position right now because we have too much debt. i really think people are getting sick of having this news sickle every single year from congress, from the washington bubble, right down to the wire, not running things like everyday families and businesses do and they're sick of it. >> let's try -- it's hard, i know it is, to separate these two things out. it's really important. it's entirely different things. look, i watched the government when it was shut down for 17 days. the republicans lost about five points a day in the polls. if you've got a chance to increase your margins, and do better because of obama care, why in the world do you want to put yourself in that position? >> you are not even going to do it. ted cruz, he's right, let the republican senators come home. mcconnell. there's 23 republican senators. >> how can you not have a budget? >> it doesn't matter. my point is he's talking right now. let these 23 senators come home and vote on the side. they'll still lose because they don't have enough votes. it's all getting people in the right position. >> i'm a firm believer -- >> why would 23 republican senators vote in favor of cloture when knowing very well it didn't even matter which way they voteded? very strange. >> good question. i think the winning piece for republicans would be to send that bill back. let harry reid deal with the bill with the pipeline and stripping congress of those subsidies and ask either member of congress three questions, did you vote for obama care, do you support the subsidies and will you be enrolling in obama care? make them go on record. i bet you'd find republicans who are taking those subsidies as well. >> i tell you one thing, you don't want to go out there and campaign. you could campaign against obama care, that's an asset. you're also having to defend yourself. that seems to take away the asset from you. i don't get it. >> all right, bob gets the last word. ahead on "the five," we're going to talk more about the president's phone call today with the president of iran. first, the white house is ranting up its rhetoric for republicans, using wild words to attack them over the budget standoff. >> negotiating with people, an extortion game -- >> to try to blackmail a president -- >> we have a lot to say about that. and later, an emotional good-bye at yankee stadium for pitcher mariano rivera last night. we'll show you the highlights. ♪ [ villain ] well mr. baldwin... it appears our journey has come to a delightful end. then i better use the capital one purchase eraser to redeem my venture miles for this trip. purchase eraser? 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