Well hear live from robert in a moment. Mark is the reason roberts cousin is in prison in the first place. Sering expose, murder in green wich. He had committed hideous murder. Mark, welcome. The case was ice cold until you published your book. How did you react when you heard the verdict was overturned . Well, geraldo, it was odd that the reason it was overturned or reversed was inadequate council. Its odd when an attorney is hired because he has connections within the community, he knows Police Officers and worked in the area. Hes at the discretion of the family and michael to direct or to change him and yet they let him try to entire case. Now they complain that he was somehow inadequate. Do you believe let me get to the big picture. Do you believe the skakel and kennedy families used their power and money and connections to keep the police at bay before you got involved in the case . Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, when you look at the Greenwich Police department, they worked for most of the people in bell haven, the area that is so rich. They worked for them off duty. If they didnt do that, they wouldnt be able to make ends meet. That was from their mouth, not mine. I just reread the book, its a terrific book. Are you certain that 15yearold Michael Skakel, just 15 years old at the time. Whether he should have been tried as a juvenile or adult is another issue. He was 15 years old at the time he killed this 15yearold, his neighbor, are you sure, in your own mind, beyond a reasonable doubt, he committed this long ago murder . Geraldo, you know, a detective is more of a finder of facts and puts those facts together. Most of the facts were actually created by Michael Skakel himself and the skakel family. Yes, i believe beyond a reasonable doubt he is the suspect because he believes he is the suspect and so does the skakel family. Robert kennedy jr. , welcome. How are you sure your cousin didnt commit this crime . Im absolutely positive he didnt commit the crime. He was, at the time the crime was committed, he was 11 miles away with five eyewitnesses. His only crime was, really having ineffective counsel. Its why he is in jail. His counsel did not call the witnesses who were there and who would have proved his innocence. They also, his counsel also, this is one of the things judge bishop pointed out in his reversal. There was only one witness who said michael confessed. This was gregory coleman, who died of a heroin overdose prior to the trial. His testimony was read at the trial, geraldo. He testified previously at the evidentiary hearing where he admitted he was high on heroin when he did that. Before we get into the details, i understand you believe your cousin has a terrific alibi. I asked if it was the power of the kennedys and the money of the kennedys and skakels that kept him from getting arrested for 25 years. I ask you, do you think it was his kennedy connection, the fact he is your cousin, is that the reason the jury was willing to believe he was a drunk and perfectly able to kill a 15yearold kid . Well, i think its the reason hes in jail. I think there was a press pile on. The press was really only with a couple exceptions, one was you, geraldo, jumped on a pile on on this narrative that has been hatched by mark that here was a kennedy cousin who because of his privilege got away with murder. There was only two problems. First of all, mark got this idea from dominic dunn that wrote a book saying michael, not Tommy Michaels older brother. Yeah. Dominic dunn went across the country and on all the talk shows. Michael was never suspect. He was a 15yearold kid at the time with an airtight alibi. It was only after mark got involves and dominic dunn gave him the story. He was in a position where he couldnt for five years he couldnt now go and shift. Again, ironically, mark is the guy who is probably primarily responsible for this. The acquittal of o. J. Simpson. Then he comes and does another travesty of justice, the conviction of a man innocent of this crime. What a load of b. S. Did he get special privileges from the Connecticut Police . No. First of all, he was never a suspect. His brother was a suspect and his brother received no special privileges from the Greenwich Police. In fact, his father was so lax about protecting the legal interest of his he didnt believe tommy was guilty. He allowed the police into the house for three weeks without following them around. They investigated everything in the house. They then gave polygraph tests to tommy without a lawyer present and injected him with truth serum and had him testify with the police present and no lawyer of his own under truth serum. I get it. You make a compelling narrative. I agree that in the far distant history, 25 years later, its very difficult for me to understand how a jury would believe that Michael Skakel was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I have to give the detective, mark who has done a meaningful job of investigating here even if its not beyond a reasonable doubt. I have to give you the opportunity to respond to Robert Kennedy jr. 11 years in jail because of you, mark. Well im not going to take the credit go ahead, mark. Geraldo, the interesting part about a lot of this story is dominic dunn acquired a report called the sutton report that a very conscious person that realized what it was actually gave it to him. It was skakels attempt to hire fbi agents, exfbi agents to investigate michael and tommy to see how exposed they were for this murder. That was an investigative treasure chest. When i received that, i was able to get many leads that led me to the conclusion, many of which were Michael Skakels statements that were not one, but numerous. Mark, will there be a retrial . Absolutely. Robert kennedy jr. , will there be a retrial . I hope hes retried because i think it will give him the chance to prove hes not just not guilty but now we know new facts about the case to demonstrate he is innocent and somebody else committed the murder and two guys who i have to leave it there. Gentlemen, i could go all night with both of you. Thank you. Up next, youll hear from a family of a mafia chief who says family of a mafia chief who says the mafia family Small Business owners are using tools like email and social Media Marketing from Constant Contact to grow their business. Theyre getting customers coming back. Fans following their business online. And new customers through the door. See how Constant Contacts products and people can help you grow your business. Start your free trial at constantcontact. Com. Did you make a deal . Is that why we won up there . No. We need to hear the truth from you. You swear you didnt hear anything . Frank sinatra and marilyn monroe. Tell us the story of how infamous mobster sam helped goat jfk elected. Then after election, when jfk unleashed the fbi, how the gangster had the 35th president killed. The grand nephew and producer and writer of this film, the story, nicholas joins us from chicago, appropriately enough. What did you think your dad did for a living . Well, when we were very young, i thought he was a salesman. When you heard people associating him with the mafia, how did wrou respond . I found out in late grammar school. I couldnt believe what i was hearing. After awhile, i became defensive and protective. Did you ever meet his reported mistress . Oh, yes. Yes. Many times. Did you know that she was apparently, and this is fairly well documented, not only your fathers mistress, but the mistress of the president of the United States in. Yes, i did know that after things started coming out and i started putting things together, yes, she was traveling between the president and my father. Tell me how you believe your great uncle and the mob family that he ran killed the president of the United States. If you look at oswald, we know for a fact now that his uncle was a bookie that worked for charles. We know that for a fact. We know now that jack ruby worked for sam. We can connect the two organized crime. So, when my uncle gave me this information, all we basically did was work backward. I asked him, i said to him, why do you think that this happened . He told me, basically, because the president s father backed out of what he promised he was going to do. What was that promise made by joe kennedy . What was that promise . He said if you get my kid ele elected, well back off. How did they pull this off . Well, first of all, getting oswald is something he was responsible for doing. Its not necessarily that jack ruby went down there to help with the assassination. Oswald was planted there. Ill be frank with you, Lee Harvey Oswald was a communist. They hated the mob. They drove them out of cuba as soon as castro took over. Why would a mobster and communist act in league to kill the president of the United States . Do you know Robert Kennedy attorney general did an investigation on his own . Do you know he pulled the phone records on oswald and jack ruby . Do you know what he found . No. He found that both of them, their record was the whos who of crime. The people they were calling and the people calling them a week before the assassination were everybody that his father was investigating going after. When you hear these stories, where your own nephew is alleging that your father helped kill the president of the United States, what is your reaction . I dont know. I cant say that i can give you a complete and direct answer, but there are things out there that can lead people to believe that it could go either way. I think when you see the film, theres enough in there to have people make up their own mind. I cant give you a definite decision. They havent figured it out in 50 years and i certainly cant figure it out in 50 years. Good point. You think nicky has found the key to success . Watch the documentary. You can look it up, beginning to air on the 19th of november. Thank you both. Thank you. At the bottom of the hour, ladies, listen up. Get drugged and drinking is epidemic on college campuses. So is rape and Sexual Assault. If it happens to your daughter, you may not like how much sympathy she gets. Reporter the distorted idea to match men drinktodrink is a feminist issue, more an more women found there is no equality when the about to say no results in Sexual Assault and little sympathy. I felt weak, worn down, like i wasnt worth anything. January, 2012, then 14yearold Daisy Coleman and her 13yearold girlfriend sneak out and hook up with a 17yearold, another 17yearold and a 15yearold. Daisy and the 13yearold drink multiple shots, claiming the assaults were video taped, she finds herself discarded in the cold. Her mom after awhile, the girls drink alcohol. It was like i was a bad mother because, you know, it makes the case shes difficult to prosecute. August 2012, members of the Football Team carry a 16yearold from party to party. The teenager is publicly and repeatedly raped by peers posting it on social media. As women, we cant defend ourselves against every rape. Not getting to the state of being so incoherent you cant be aware of whats going on around us. It is something to prevent. She lost her virginity when she was molested. I was a 19yearold virgin and woke up in a Fraternity House naked with a guy i didnt know well. I didnt particularly like him. I had no idea what happened the night before. It was sickening. She visits colleges and military bases to convince kids sex assault follow binge drinking. We have seen young girls 13 and 14 years old binge drinking and finding themselves in the same situation, getting video taped and dragged around and sexually assaulted. Half of all eighth graders have tried alcohol. I was raped by a classmate while working on campus one summer. The issue of binge drinking and sexual asalt is nationwide. Recently seven women came forward at the university of connecticut to say they were assaulted. Some of them intoxicated at the time. The officer said women need to stop spreading their legs like Peanut Butter or rape is going to keep on happening until the cows come home. Running into the alleged rapist, one of the women frustrated hired a slepty attorney gloria allred. Feeling confused, violated, traumatized and vulnerable. Does it scare you that seven women came forward . It concerns me as a woman on this campus. It makes me feel that i need to be more aware of everything going on around me. Reporter they are uconn seniors. What about when the girls come forward and say they were attacked and they are told you put yourself in that predickment . I really hate it when people say that because no one deserves to be sexually assaulted. Reporter her family moved away. The now 16yearold may be going back to testify. They announced hes filing new charges. She hopes her ordeal with help other girls avoid the intersection of boos and rape. Its shocking how many people heard it and how many people are speaking out and how they want to help me. Reporter the situation here is not isolated. 20 of women reached their senior year could be molested and its usually by someone they know and usually alcohol is involved. Geraldo . Back to you. Craig, thanks. Up next, we suspected they have something to do with it. The secret indictment of the parents of Jonbenet Ramsey. Coming your way after this. For over a decade millions have raised their hand for the proven relief of the purple pill. And that relief could be in your hand. For many, nexium helps relieve heartburn symptoms from acid reflux disease. Find out how you can save at purplepill. Com. There is risk of bone fracture and low magnesium levels. Side effects may include headache, abdominal pain, and diarrhea if you have persistent diarrhea, contact your doctor right away. Other serious stomach conditions may exi. Avoid if you te clopidogrel. For many, relief is at hand. Ask your doctor abouxium. Ger man knee and france banning electronic surveillance of leaders. The nsas dropped on many foreign leaders. The nsas alleged vacuum cleaner approach sparking a protest in washington saturday. Next week German Secret Service officials are coming to the u. S. Demanding ex plan naiplanatione recalls for broccoli, coleslaw and more. The broccoli, salad and slau are being pulled from eastern southern states. Taylor farm says it includes ingredients recalled by the fine foods. Now back to geraldo at large. Ox. It was a bombshell. Ox. The news on friday that a grand jury voted to indict both parents in connection with the notorious murder of their child, Jonbenet Ramsey. Police. Whats going on. A kidnapping. Hurry. Please. The day after christmas, 1996, Jonbenet Ramsey, a lovely 6yearold, a regular on the beauty pageant circuit is missing from her home in boulder, colorado. Explain to me whats going on, okay. We have a note. A note was left in your daugt ears gone . Yes. When cops arrive, mom shows a bizarre ransom note in the house. Police search and find no sign of jonbenet. We have not ruled anyone in or out as a suspect. The father, apparently discovers his daughters beaten, strangled body in a basement room. The child was tortured and sexually assaulted. Police believe an intruder is to blame. Because of where and how the child is found, suspicion shifts to the Ramsey Family itself. The amount of time the defendant spent at the scene is very, very telling and unusual. Because it is so unlikely that a stranger would assault and kidnap a child for hours in her own home with her parents and brother asleep upstairs, suspicion falls heavily on her family, especially the mother patsy, a former miss west virginia. The story line says the mom was jealous of her beautiful daughter, already sexualized by the beauty pageant campaign. I did not kill jonbenet. I did not have anything to do with it. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul. Father jon is also suspected. The ceo of a Computer Services company, dad doted on the young child. Some expect abuse. Innuendos she was sexually molested. They were hurtful to us as a family. They are totally false. Two years pass. In 1999, the world believes, incorrectly, a boulder grand jury decided theres not enough evidence to indict anyone for jonbenets murder. The District Attorney misleads the world with the following remark. The boulder grand jury completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. True, no charges are filed, but what the d. A. Fails to disclose is the secret grand jury voted to indict the parents on charges of accessory and child abuse leading to murder. In 2006, patsy dies of ovarian cancer. Two years later, jon ramsey is informed he and his late wife have been exonerated. Thats after dna testing finds traces of a third person on the slain childs long johns. It was gratifying. It was a step forward. 18 years later, the secret grand jury bombshell, the panel felt the parents and a third person committed the crime that captivated the nation. Why werent they prosecuted . They explained he did not feel there was enough evidence to convince. He should have let a jury decide. Im at total peace about the calls i have made. As i said, he should have let a jury decide. Our next guest, Craig Silverman covering the jonbenet saga. Craig, welcome to the program. First of all, a shoutout to Charlie Brennan and the team at the boulder newspaper. They forced the revelation of this unprosecuted indictment. Have you ever heard of that . I have. There was a situation in federal court. Its rare. That was in denver, a strange case. Most of the time, prosecutors dont ask a grand jury to deliberate and vote if they are not going to act afterwards. This was the District Attorney, alex hunter putting his own will above that of the grand jury. To me, that is colossal arrogance at the very least. I feel we have been cheated and lied to by alex hunter, the District Attorney. Yeah. Alex hunter had so many flaws. The worst part of the jonbenet investigation is the way he had a dysfunctional relationship with the Boulder Police department. The latest revelation seems to me to be Charlie Brennan, who followed the case from the out set to the Rocky Mountain news. Hes a good friend of stan garnet. In fact, he tried to help stan garnet become Colorado Attorney general. I think theres a coordinated effort to put pressure on jon ramsey. To put pressure on him. Let me read from the indictment. According to the grand jury means theres probable cause means he probably did what im about to read. He did unlawfully render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay or apprehension as punishment for the commission of the crime. The crime of murder in the first degree. Thats child abuse. The other one is that, you know, the unreasonably placed the child with the threat of injury, child abuse resulting in death. Theres probable cause these things happened. A jury deserved to hear this case. Startling accusation by fellow people in boulder. Jon and patsy ramsey permitted and rendered assistance to their child. Maybe theres a third person. Maybe they are saying we believe the ramseys did it, but dont know which one did what, but the other is covering. Theres a lot to try to figure out. The good news is sam garnet is a different and better kind of d. A. Than alex hunter or mary lacy. A good working relationship with Boulder Police. The Boulder Police, who have long focused on ramsey. Craig silverman, i think this says theres a third person involved. The dna said there was an adult male who left his blood tracing on the long johns, the sleep wear of that poor child. I think that something happened with those parents and the third person, i think its the most logical reading of the indictment that is secret since friday. Its a possibility. Some say the dna is a contamination, its not important. You may be right. So many experts look at this crime scene and said it was staged. Could it have been a staged kidnapping . I dont know. The Boulder Police have so many files on this case. The grand jury that heard sworn testimony and without a prosecutor pushing for charges, they said jon and patsy, we dont think you were sleeping, we think you permitted and rendered assistance, a hell of an accusation against the parents of this girl. Nice to see you again. Nice to see you. We weigh in on the jonbenet we weigh in on the jonbenet case and the moxley could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. Mmmhmmm. Everybody knows that. Well, did you know that old macdonald was a really bad speller . Your word is. Cow. Cow. Cow. C. O. W. E. I. E. I. O. [buzzer] dangnabbit. Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you. Well, you know. Do you ever think the killer of jonbenet is still throughout . I believe he is. Hes alive, dead or in prison. No one would blame you were being angry and bitter. I was. You cant stay there. Its damaging as a person. In her latest rip roaring book, its a scorcher, never trust a liberal over 3, especially a republican. Revealing them for the nation recking and how we can defeat them. She looks great on the cover. Then a fascinating memoir. Taking the stand, he talks about life and legal practice. This youngest ever harvard law professor represented everyone from o. J. Simpson to bill clinton. The cases involving ordinary folks, the guy who shot a corpse thinking it was alive. Interesting. Is that murder . They got him for attempted murder and i won the case. Bringing my students into the case, using my classroom and bringing it into the courtroom. How do you beat that . If hes trying to kill a dead body, i see why its not murder. You cant kill a corpse. Man dies but once. We had to go through three courts to win the case. Appellate and appeals and Federal District court. Did you know ann is a constitutional lawyer as well. I know that. Do you agree . I have not practiced law in a decade. You always introduce me as a fantastic lawyer. The jury couldnt take their eyes off you. I know you disagree in my assessment of the Jonbenet Ramsey case. Im holding the indictment that was never acted on. He said the grand jury completed the work, no charges would be filed. He did not say the grand jury voted to indict the parents and i chose not to. You have to ask the question, would it be legal under colorado law for a District Attorney to announce a secret grand jury secretly indicted with evidence . I dont know the answer to that. In my book, i describe four or five cases like this. The grand jury comes back and they get convictions. We always win the appeal. Theres reasonable doubt. Even if we think they probably did it or likely that they did it, the idea you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt with the dna evidence pointing in a different direction, that the person enindicted did it. Its not enough to say one did it and the other helped. You need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You are agreeing with his decision not to sign the indictment . Im agreeing with both decisions. I can understand why the grand jury, inexperienced, not lawyers would come to this decision. Then a prosecutor, if theres proof beyond a reasonable doubt, i agree with that. Whether he should have said something different, what he said was misleading. Ann, i cannot believe you would agree a public official who is so carefully threading the needle would be in the right. No, i think he did make the right decision. You have the dna evidence. Okay, its not just positive. The dna evidence came years later. Right. But we have it now. So, if that seems to be good evidence that he did the right thing. On top of that, you add the dna evidence. This is a very unlikely crime for this particular couple. Its just the kind of crime the media and public receive. We want to believe the beautiful, happy families are well off are going around committing awful crimes. Like saying the time square bomber is another tea partier. Oops, hes muslim. The evidence is consistent with being what we expected. The final thing i say about this is, if you get murdered, do not get murdered in greenwich, connecticut or boulder colorado. Make sure you have a good lawyer. Dont pay them 1. 2 million. Do you think rich people get a bonus or do you think they are tried more severely, generally speaking. The answer is yes, both. The cops are blunderers . Not, if i could finish that point so its not misunderstand. Im not blaming the cops, but if they have one murder per decade, all the cases, the cops didnt secure the scene. They didnt bring the potential suspect in. You would instantly accuse the parents. Of course you would. The closest case i have to this i remember that. He had a young girlfriend, an exotic dancer she had a boyfriend. They found a mark on his body that was consistent with a button he was wearing on his shirt proving he was killed by compression. Crushed. Crushed, right. Burked to death. I get in the case. I look at the photograph and i say that may not be a bruise. I give it to the leading dermatologist in the world. He puts it under xray examination. Its a benign tumor that hes had for 30 years. We get the conviction reversed and the woman goes free. That is what happened in real life. This is before dexter. All the cases i have won and i describe in this book are science cases where science trumps common sense. Never trust a liberal over 3, especially a republican is her book. Well be back with alan and ann. Hey, its me, progressive insurance. You know, from our 4,000 television commercials. Yep, there i am with flo. Hoohoo watch it [chuckles] anyhoo, 3 Million People switched to me last year, saving an average of 475. [sigh] it feels good to help people save. With great discounts like safe driver, multicar, and multipolicy. So call me today. Youll be glad you did. Cannonbox [splash ] [ ding ] i sense youve overpacked, your stomach. Try pepto togo. Its peptobismol that fits in your pocket. Relief can be yours, but your peanuts. Are mine. The kennedy cousin, the 25 years after the fact. He never should have been tried as an adult in my opinion. He was 15 years old at the time. 25 years later dont you think this guy got railroaded . I do. I think the judge said theres reasonable doubt. I cant do that. Im going to find ineffective assistance of counsel. Judges cant second guess lawyers. I dont talk about reasonable doubt. I talk about innocence. I want real innocence. I think this has a good chance of being reversed on appeal. That the conviction will be reinstated. Id be looking toward a plea bargain trying to put this behind us. Hes already served. 11 years. Id try to work out a plea bargain. Im not confident this will be upheld on appeal. You believe the kennedy cousin should get a plea deal rather than risk going to try again . I think if youre a kennedy the likelihood of sggetting a conviction increases. Youre a kennedy and you have a lot of money and you dont get a good attorney. Really terrible job by the police. I dont blame them but they dont see a lot of murders there. There wasnt a lot to work with. Just as a general matter, i just think ineffective assistance of counsel claims are always the weakest and most pathetic. Its exactly what allen said. The judge wanted to overturn it. There was no misconduct by the prosecutor. No misconduct by the police. No newly discovered evidence. Lets second guess everything the lawyers i have a case i described in my book in which i was representing a black man in alabama who murdered a white state trooper and the white lawyer gets up and says i dont know why you believe my client. I dont believe him. That was not regarded as ineffective. He also fell asleep for one hour during the trial. That was his best hour. Ineffective assistance of counsel could be half the cases ive ever seen tried. Micki cherman did not do that. Taking the stand and never touched a liberal over three. Ted cruz born in canada. Does he get to run for president of the United States . The constitution says he has to be natural citizen, not naturalized. Weve had several american president s born outside the United States but they were citizens as the results of their parents birth, their birth, who they were born to. Youll have to defeat ted cruz on his principel principles and. We should send it to some harvard professors to give us answers. Thank you. My thought on it, hes clearer than i am. What makes it especially easy in ted cruzs case, for one thing its canada. We ought to have an asterisk for its just canada. The birthers, what they rr claiming is that. You have one person parent. In ted cruzs case, not only is it canada, one parent was an american citizen and the other was stateless. His father was imprisoned by castro. He fled cuba. Theres not as if theres some doubt. Is he a cuban citizen through his father. Through his birth hes only an american citizen. Do you think he will be the candidate . If he runs hes definitely at the top of many lists includes mine. Yours . Oh, yes. I think that would be a dream come true for democrats. He was your student. I blame you. Ive had people on the left and right. I dont try to change their views. I try to make them better michael, tell us why you used priceline express deals to book this fabulous hotel. 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