In order to speak freely. And he joins me now from berlin. Hes pink eye scotch, met president of the conference of european rabbis, and he wants all jews in russia to get out. Now. His reasons it is that its going to be impossible to leave. And number 3 are the hardest hitting sanctions which are going to damage the economy long term incomplete zone. This week we ask if you cranes, president volume is a landscape was right to criticize israels response. To the war should use speak out whenever universal values are threatened. And will historians look back on this war as a wrong turning for russia or the start of a new dark age . Rabbi pink us coach met. Welcome to conflict zone time. Thank you for having me on your program. Its good to see you, your initial response to the february invasion if i can start with that. The february invasion of ukraine was basically to say nothing, not to support it, not to condemn it. In order you said not to get the Jewish Community into trouble. Do you regret that initial response . Youre considering the shark, her of for the Single Member of the community, i think go many of the citizens in russia after actual invasion. Most people actually thought that nothing is going to happened. I sat the day before with many diplomats and members of parliament and others, and the said, oh, who needs ukraine . We dont need ukraine. And so it was a shock and it took time till a deregistered dirt. We are in he of an all out war. You said later, you realised keeping quiet in such circumstances is morally wrong. And yet that was the clear choice you made in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. Im wondering why was it out of habit . It was the we, we got so i would say in the last years of her current regime, are we in the community basically whom were like to hold on for russian society. Were deep politicized. Which means we did not comment her on political issues. And we did not term her and we did not get involved in politics in order not her not to get into trouble. Because if you support a one way or the you do it either way. If you dont support the resumed and youre done, you have problems. However, as some the m, we understood that were dealing here with our european war or with sir millions of refugees and jewish communities which are being destroyed after being so difficult to rebuild. After 3rd, the court communist regime, after the break up the soviet union, whom i came to the realization that not every one im or i want to say is openly that are not only can we stay silent, we have to do something about. So in that case, have recent events in russia and your response to them compelled you to rethink your attitude to morality. What is a moral response to an invasion of this kind . No, i dont think that i am. I think that so since the changes which have happened in russia have been, i would say a gradual that has not been from one day to the next. So it was so difficult to pinpoint to the moment that you had to say enough is enough. I can not stay silent anymore. And however, the, the change that the major change in the country of fur am waking up the 24th of february in the morning and seeing with them out with mass arrests and every last her her in the pen and media being shut down. Oh, we understood that or does was a major change or were live in a different country with different rules. You say you were living in a different country, but you lived in a country where president putin had invaded unoccupied crimea, in 2014, hed fuel the war in the dumbass where some, 15000 people had died. So february 24th was a continuation of what had gone before, wasnt it . It was fully in line with the trajectory that his administration had been following. Expanding russias borders, clamping down on Civil Liberties at home, and killing enough political opponents for the rest to get the idea that that much had to be clear, wasnt it as possible . Or when the earth with the crimea not one person died, doing her to take over the crimea. And her, i throw the question back to you. Where was europe . Where was, were, where was the United States . In with the white in they push all these very punching sanctions in 2014. Why did their weight of 2022 good question. Only put the question to them, but, but im, im asking you what you not aware that rights and universal rights were being trampled and people were being repressed and killed in russia during that period. It was um, i would say that number one, the people who were repressed her was an in smaller scale them and dirt. Tim, i want to tell you that term boom though red line between a democracy and also Terry Newsome is not always clear. And when you pass from one system to the other, no, its not always clear when is the red line passed . So whom is it when the no more free elections . Or is it when some people, critical of the regime are being jailed . Its so its not always clear to that to you know, its where and you have for quite a few countries where you pass from the marg, democracy to an authoritarianism. And until totalitarianism are the lines clear, the lights are not always clear. Only in hand site, is there a lesson that you took away from this . That staying silent is not an option where universal rights are being trampled and people are being repressed. I think 3rd from them in todays m. A situation where there were a country has been invaded and the millions and millions of refugees leaving this country. It is very important for every one to speak up. Have one who can neither one can looking back. Do you think if more people had spoken up and you talked about the western reaction you through the question back to me as if i was talking for the west and not actually talking for the west, but, but if more people had spoken out both in russia and around the world, do you think that president putin might not have gone ahead with the full scale invasion . He launched in february i f. And i tend to think that if far as somebody who would have um told on the 23rd of february 3rd to the kremlin, that sir, them reaction an offer. The west of pho, europe, the United States is going to be the one we have seen. I highly doubt that sir, to come in would have gone on no, on with this war. So is the Jewish Community in russia now rethinking the practice of staying silent and keeping their head down and trying to stay out of trouble . Should it you know, as well as i am, as i do that, are people who speak up of being fined or being arrested in the business of being closed down. So it is very easy to go, criticize the russian regime from the safety of, of london or paris or berlin. It is much harder to do it if you live inside russia, your business, a deal, your parents deal, you have children there. So its a much easier to talk about it than actually to do it. But rabbi goldschmidt making the right moral decision cant always be a cost free exercise. Can it take em . Yes it, it is. Every person has a free choice and every person has to take the right decision. So am i mom . Am i am concerned about the future after Jewish Community in russia. And im not the only one concerned, thousands and tens of thousands of jews have left the country since the beginning of the invasion. And should those who and i think that by leaving they have im so the, by leaving they, every one who left the country, made a statement and, and, and should those whove left the country. What should that, what should their attitude be now . Should they speak out, should they say whatever they need to say . I think that everyone in who has the possibility has to state and has to say what he thinks, what she thinks. And i am speaking to hundreds and thousands of members of my community and also of her, of her russians of other religions. I feel that theyre not speaking with people outside of russia. I feel that is very little support for this war. A prominent politician for the minister nathan sharons gate, who was a, as you know, a dissident who was jailed in the soviet union, refused. Nick as they were called at the time. He says that if jews have the chance to get out of russia, they should take it, they should go. Do you support that view . Yes, i support the 3 or and for many reasons. And so the many reasons why jews to day and concern about the future and russia, it is a, the rise and anti semitism. B, the possibility of a closing of the iron curtain that it is, its going to be impossible to leave the number 3 are the hardest hitting the sanctions, which are going to damage the economy. Long term and number for the possibility of the, of to theres going to be a general draft for the army. And, and, and, and number 5 is dirt widen, repression of civil society. Let me, if i may take you back to the time when you made the decision, im in march to leave russia. You said that after 2 weeks, so searching you left because you wanted to be able to speak out against the war and youd been told the Jewish Community would suffer if you did that and stayed. Can you clear up exactly what threats were aimed at . You personally . And by whom i think that so it was not only the possibility of speaking out speaking out is important, but to ask, you know, judaism is a religion of deeds. Is that only a religion of thoughts or beliefs . It is the actual deed which is important for us. And we called is di da mitzvah. And speaking out, as has been secondary 1st. And most important has been the feeling and the realization that we have to do something to help those thousands of refugees of our communities who had to leave to eastern europe. Which us with sir, maybe with one suitcase who didnt have a roofer on the heads than but thats what we did. We established under the aegis of the conference of european rabbis this fund to an International Fund to help ukraine refugees now been visiting. I left russia to visit in, in Eastern European capitals and would a personal war so and also pneumonia, all those thousands of jewish refugees and other refugees went there. And we have established programs for the integration of, for the help with those refugees. So speaking out has been secondary, the number one mit swelled at one number, one in deed which we had to do is to help. My question was about the threats that you personally received. How graphic, how clear were these threats . I think that if her, you are a clergyman living a certain country, you can identify as you understand when the, when are you getting messages from certain quarters and it doesnt always have to a personal or that can be communal as well. So what was said to you, and by whom i dont want to go into more details, the allowed the still many members of the Community Living in russia, continuing to work there with people in the clergy. We have rabbis with Community Leaders at this moment. I dont want to go into dieters. One or 2 jewish leaders in russia did speak out and did refuse to tow the official line. Couldnt you have done the same and, and, and stayed in russia. M it. So i dont think that i was been a, i dont think i would been able to help and to establish the so whole structure to help refugees staying in russia. And i dont think i would have been able to communicate or to the world, to the jewish world, to deter and to the world at large the issues and challenges we are facing. Did leaving russia feel in any way like running away . I think that, ah, if i have been the only one making this decision, maybe you it i am i, i can tell you one thing. Ive a very good friend, shazlaw come she is one of the leading journalists are in the opposition and her earnestly. She was quite absurd that her left, but a month later she left herself. So you felt vindicated. Its not a question or feeling of vindicated. It is a question of fur of him to day. We have tens of thousands of members of my community who are living outside russia. I would say, if were talking about people who used to count hours, synagogues, i would say, even the majority is outside of russia. My committee is all over the world there. And then to buy than israel, they london, and in germany, then sir, their immigration to israel from russia was her twice as high than from ukraine in the last her sister. And the since to was dotted and the, im responsible for the wider community. And i was also believed it, ill be able to help our community, which stayed on in russia, but from the outside of done from the inside. Rabbi goldsmith, it seems the relations between senior jewish figures in russia and ukraine have been badly damaged by the events in recent months. Um, in march ukraines chief rabbi marcia as man roundly condemned leaders of the russian Jewish Community and said, your failure to denounce the invasion was tantamount to complicity. How hard is it going to be to repair those ties . I dont know. There were some leaders who supported innovation. I dont want to in express myself. I dont want to judge them. Who am i to judge . I can tell you that my relationship with our ukraine and colleagues is wonderful. And did you call rabbi as man he says, when he said im talking to you. Dear russians. Dear jews, remember that one who is indifferent is an accomplice to war crimes, crimes against humanity. I stand with the holy tor and i tell you to wake up hardly any one he said has called me, do you understand the sense of abandonment that he had from the Jewish Community . I for sure. I was sure i can feel it in ukraine doesnt have only one she for rabbi, by the way, you know, we have a quite a we have a think 3 chief robinson ukraine and we are in touch with them. And i myself, a just 3 weeks ago spent a whole long weekend in the town of neptune in romania, with a 1200 refugees from odessa with the chief elbow. Vanessa so ill we are in touch with our colleagues from ukraine. And i also spoke a few days ago to a group of new immigrants from russia and ukraine in jerusalem. And he had over there in the room. He had about 4050 young people. And they came from moscow from other cities in russia, and from odessa and from kia and from nikolai, even for malleable. And you should see those people just sitting together trying to help each other in the new country. They all left the countrys walgreens, not because they wanted to, but because of the impossibility to stay the talking of helping the ukrainians president zalinski himself. A jew has had harsh words for what he sees as israels inadequate response to the conflict. To israels mediation efforts, he said that can be no mediation between good and evil. He has appoint, doesnt he i want to tell you those people who want to criticize as well for not going or not joining europe with sanctions against am, against russia. I want to remind them that is what is not buying. Oil and gas from russia is, was not financing to war. It is youre buying gas and oil from russia is financing to war in russia. Some of that criticism. Rabbi goldsmith has come from inside israel itself, the former Prime Minister, ehud alma, for instance, he didnt think much of the governments reaction in february. There are times he said, when you have to decide who you are, what you stand for, you cant fool around. You cant fool yourself. If israel were like america trying to rally its allies, would we like our best friend saying . Well, there are pros and cons and weve got other things to think about. Hes not saying do the easy thing. Hes saying do the right thing. You have no sympathy with him when his views okay. The some ways theyre to europe or is it is just trying to do the right thing. But it, obviously, it is impossible to leave elderly people or children in unheeded homes and middle of december and january the same way. Israel cannot leave millions of people prone to attacks from rockets for his valor and from the iranian sponsor to guerrillas in lebanon and syria. So each country wants to join, wants to join the sanction regime or to criticize, however, each country has their priorities to to protect their citizens 1st. But rabbi goldsmith, ukrainians are fighting for their lives and the survival of their unit, treat state. And israel is saying, yeah, well, its terrible, but weve got more important security concerns to worry about with iran and syria. You said in july, nowadays the world is looking at israel and the jewish people and expects us to be on the moral high ground. And im just wondering whether this position is the moral high ground you want to occupy within israel itself, you have a discussion among it might become an issue in the Upcoming Elections november among political leaders, to what extent israel should be involved should not be involved in this conflict, so this will m m, i would say m is a right now has taken a position jojo, la pete. The current Prime Minister of israel has taken possession, criticizing russia. And i want to tell you term that or israel has a had problems because of it. Russia decided to close. The Jewish Agency doesnt happen from one day to the next. There was a reason for it. Do you regard the changes in russia as irreversible . Rabbi goldschmidt will historians look back on this in your view as a wrong turn for russia or the beginning of a new dark age in the country. Right now. I think that her rushes entering her appears of deep isolation. A new, almost her totally closed iron curtain with europe, not with asia, but with europe. And term i sinkter term does a d, the coming period is going to be very difficult. Do you foresee, ever going back . Do you want to go back . As you know, we have to be optimists and i hope that one theyll be able to go back. But i think as goldsmiths its been good to have you on conflict, so thank you very much indeed for your time. Thank you. Thank you, tim inviting me ah ah ah, with ah, our previous worker is getting squeeze. 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